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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Nov 2016 : 15:01:59
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To me, the appearance of Ioulaum and then the apparent skyrocketing of Netheril's power seems to coincidental to me...
Has anyone thought that he might be something more then just a human wizard? Maybe the first Chosen or something? Would Ao have a Chosen?
Has anyone thought this out at all?
In the past we have used Ioulaum as a behind the scenes "sponsor" type to my group, leading them with information and support.
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2016 : 16:00:17
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| To me his discoveries were quite inefective but blunt show of possibilities that nobody thought of before him. Cutting a mountain top and make it fly with permanent levitation? Ioun stones are better but less used and his Longevity spell was closely guarded. mythallar itself IMHO wasn't his work entirely as it is Netheril's atempt to recreate Mythal powers of elves envy of many wizards even today. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2016 : 19:56:15
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My thoughts on the matter are thus: I think Ioulaum had 'wild talent' psionics, much as Elminster does (along with certain other, magically powerful beings). His brain was probably able to discern the 'underpinnings' of magic within the Nether Scrolls (as Karsus probably also did).
He may have been the first psionicist to discover the 'synergies' involved with pure mental power and spells (if you've ever read any of Jack Vance' stuff, then you'd know D&D 'magic' is actually psionically-related 'super-science').
And I think that mostly because of the direction he gravitated toward in the end.
Taking this train of thought a step further, I think thats why Elves (and other fey-offshoots) are so damn good at magic - they all possess very low-level psionic (empathic?) ability. Its the whole basis of 'circle magic' (linking minds), which is practiced by some human (and other) groups, but the Elves raised it to an art-form (Elven High Magic) that rivals divine power in scope and magnitude. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Nov 2016 19:58:39 |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2016 : 20:09:25
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Thanks guys, good stuff for thought here.
My idea was that after Ioulaum left Netheril, he went to the Neverwinter Woods and later Gauntlgrym and found the Primordial there. After years of trying to tap into its power, and working with the Illithids in the first place, he awakened a psionic ability he didnt have, or know he had, before. Later turning full Oracle...
Since he lived in the Neverwinter Woods since like -300DR, he is tied to many of the events impacting Neverwinter over time. Even to the point of becoming a "father figure" of our main PC, Heir to the Crown of Neverwinter.
I have been trying to tie in a divine aspect to drive the PC's group, The Company of the Seven Serpents.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 08:05:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
To me his discoveries were quite inefective but blunt show of possibilities that nobody thought of before him. Cutting a mountain top and make it fly with permanent levitation? Ioun stones are better but less used and his Longevity spell was closely guarded. mythallar itself IMHO wasn't his work entirely as it is Netheril's atempt to recreate Mythal powers of elves envy of many wizards even today.
Couple things - Ioun discovered the Ioun stones - not Ioulaum... close but not the same.
Also, I would not say mythallar are like mythals in anything but name. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 13:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Couple things - Ioun discovered the Ioun stones - not Ioulaum... close but not the same.
Also, I would not say mythallar are like mythals in anything but name.
I agree that final product is way different than Mythal but I do belive that original concept was to emulate the way elves use Mythals - a power source for city wide magic. That is what Mythallars do but in different way. Spells like Spell Engine are left overs from this project IMO. |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 15:22:43
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Weren't the elves Mythal's a gift from the gods? How were they discovered by the elves?
I mean the called Ioulaum "The Father of Netheril" and he was the most powerful wizard the great empire ever produced I believe, and thats saying alot no? Him having some tie to The Weave or Mystryl makes sense to me...and some level. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 20:28:41
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| 2nd most powerful, after Karsus. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 22:35:59
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Okay, Mythals and Mythalar are two very different things, and even when it comes to Mythals, there are two types (Arcane and 'Elven High Magic'). That part is completely canon.
I have theories connecting all of them, and the simplest one is that the original Mythals required divine Assistance and a 'High Elven Magic' ritual (which includes sacrificing some 'life force', which could be spread around, or under dire circumstance could all be lumped onto one or a few individuals). At a much later time - post-Crown wars, the Elves learned a thing or two either directly from the Nether Scrolls, or from the Netherese, and figured-out a way to 'do the thing' without Divine assistance (EPIC Arcane magic, instead of ELVEN High Magic). A subtle difference, but one that the lore rather insists upon (and unnecessary complication, IMO, because some designers may respect the lore a wee bit too much and don't want to just retcon stuff).
The Mythalars, on the other hand, probably stem from Iuolaum studying an Elven Mythal (and the 'life forces' contained therein), and figured-out that such a magical 'field effect' might be used to power magical items (rather than giving them 'charges', and requiring the life-force sacrifice for each item created). So basically, instead of a Mage sacrificing a little of his own life for each item he made, they would draw-upon the initial sacrifice that created the Mythal. So basically, one might say Ioulaum 'backwards-engineered' the Mythal magi-tech to develop his own, similar, self-aware, magical 'field effect'. Similar in basic design, very different in function (although, to be honest, since each is unique, I can see both individual Mythals and Mythalars having some properties of the other - some Mythalars having a few protective magics woven-in, and some Mythals may have also help to empower or augment magic cast within). The main thing they have in-common, though, is that both have some sort of awareness (which may be basic, complex, or even start out basic but develop to be more complex over time), and both are 'magical fields' that effect things within them (or coming in contact with them).
That being said, I think that Drow 'Spell Webs' (around their Noble Houses) are a lesser form of this same 'tech', and even Ed's concept of 'Hanging Spells' - Spell Mantles (using stacked contingencies) - are a personalized form, both with increasingly lower 'self guidance'. Think of it like this - the less power (and 'life force') one dedicates to something of this nature, the less 'awareness' (AI?) you are going to have. However, given the nature of magic, FR, and the craziness of things like the ToT and spellplague, I could totally see even the lesser form of 'magical fields' gaining their own self-awareness over time, or just by some epic magical event (there is at least one canon instance of an illusion becoming 'self aware' simply by being left 'on' for too long). Imagine an archmage of Elminster's caliber dying, and his mantle becoming almost something akin to a revenant (and may even have 'gone crazy' and thinks its the real Elminster, or whoever). Instead of a 'living spell' (4e, Eberron, etc.,), you'd have a living Field of Spells.©
So everything after that first sentence is conjecture, NOT canon. Now for the pure homebrew...
In my (Eastern) fairy lore, I have it where the Fey word 'Myth' means 'safe place', or even 'gathering place'. When the Fey first fled Ladinion (presumably for the Feywild), they needed to "Disappear into Myth" - 'find a safe place' to get away from the effects of the black Diamond. Most fled the (material) world itself, but many others found their own 'myths' (Fey Islands, Dryad trees, Fairy courts, etc). When the original fey tongue (which I think is the spoken form HamarFae) evolved into Seldruin - the language of the elves - the word came to simply mean 'settlement' (because that's what a settlement is - a 'safe place' where elves can gather). This is why many of their cities start with 'Myth' - it basically just means "city of..." (whereas the prefix 'Ever' probably means 'of the Elves', or 'of The People', as they refer to themselves).
Thus, 'Mythal' would mean 'a field-effect that makes a place safe'. 'Mythalar' was probably just Ioulaum wanting a word that sounded like an improved version of the Elven Mythal (so, more Netherese hubris, which is only over-shadowed by Elven hubris).
And thats my completely homebrew etymology of the word 'Myth' and how it came to mean the different things it means today. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2016 01:42:57 |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2016 : 23:08:31
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Not to bring up the Karsus vs Ioulaum but...Karsus is not thought of in a good light I thinks. :)
I like the mythals comparisons...nice work! |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 10:06:24
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Karsus is regarded in retrospect poorly, of course, but was basically the big cheese in his day.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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kalos72
Acolyte
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 13:01:33
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| Could I get a glmipse at the write up perhaps sir? I love the fan work!!! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2016 : 21:37:49
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I absolutely agree with Myth etymology and Elven/Netheries hubris :-)
About Iolaum he was genius for sure if for nothing else than for new way of thinking. His fame was IMO more about his longevity and rumors.
About Mythals - All Mythals were created by High Magic which is a form of arcane magic, Myth Drannor was first "arcane" Mythal (created right after Netheril expired...). Maybe the original netheries intent wasn't recreation of Mythal effect but preparation for spellbattle with elven nation. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 00:58:42
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The one thing I left out of my etmology (theory) above was that the Netherese suffix 'ar' means 'greater'. Thus, in order to make people think he improved upon the Elven Mythal, he named his Mythalar, or translated, "Greater Mythal". I'm sure that stuck in the Elves craw. His original may have even contained many of the protection effects associated with elven version, but with the added ability to empower psuedo-magical itmes. Since each Mythalar (and mythal) are unique, with their own quirks and 'personalities', thats an easy piece of lore to add. The later, Elven (Epic) Arcane Mythals may have even borrowed some of the Netherese magi-tech to empower items (although the long-lived elves may not have been as concerned with trading life-force for crafting magical items).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
<snip> when i was working on the rewrite it was pretty clear that without netheril there was no ioulaum. When he disappeared the common people believed netheril was doomed and started fleeing en masse.
I think you meant that the other way around - Without Ioulaum, there would have been no Netheril.
He seems to have 'unlocked' something the rest of them couldn't even come close to (not even Karsus, who was consumed by his own conceit). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2016 01:00:34 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2016 : 03:24:05
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If i recall rightly, Karsus only ruled Netheril from -356;DR onward as part of a triumvirate with Ioulaum and Lady Polaris.
Ioulaum then retreated into hiding in the last decade of Netherils existence.
Lady Polaris became grotesque and crazy so Karsus was only the big cheese for a few years at most.
Karsus was famous for doing everything at a younger age than anyone previous but his major contributions were only heavy magic and the avatar spell that destroyed netheril.
Whereas ioulaum invented mythallars, enclaves, the longevity spell, saving netheril from orc hordes a number of times, and i dont doubt a hundred other achievements in his 2000 year history. when i was working on the rewrite it was pretty clear that without netheril there was no ioulaum. When he disappeared the common people believed netheril was doomed and started fleeing en masse.
The part this ignores is that Karsus was born hundreds of years after both Polaris and Iolaum AND at that young age attained a degree of magical power equal to or greater than either.
As is so often the case, this made him believe he was deserving to be the god of magic and led to his folly. |
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Your Thoughts on Ioulaum?
