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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2016 : 18:44:04
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as a scrying tool. Can you shunt yourself over to the Ethereal Plane from the Astral and view things on the Material Plane while OOB?
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2016 : 19:08:50
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The way it used to work (1e/2e and probably 3e), the astral and ethereal were NOT connected, and travel between them was impossible.
If you mean in 4e or 5e, I have no clue. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Oct 2016 19:09:50 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2016 : 21:50:37
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| So, in D&D terms, what is Dr. Strange doing when his body is sitting in his study meditating, and his conciousness is out floating around, passing through walls, sometimes invisible, sometimes seen as a translucent "ghost"? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2016 : 23:28:36
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The reason the Ethereal Plane and Astral Plane do not connect is because of their fundamental nature. One is a plane of substance - the building blocks of substance really. The astral is the plane of pure thought - substance does not exist there. All "matter" on the Astral plane is truly the concept of that matter, not the matter itself.
Dr. Strange is doing Spiritual Projection - Similar to Astral Projection, but not the same.
There are MANY effects that let you do this in D&D. In most cases, the link between body and soul becomes mostly severed - these are akin to Magic Jar effects. There have been other ways described, like dream walking where the connection is not severed. These are what you're talking about.
I think possibly the best way to go with Dr. Strange is to think of all of his abilities as Psionic. The Psycoportive Devotion Dream Travel would fit the bill in this case - in his particular case, he would not be asleep, just meditating. Alternately, the Psychometabolic Devotion Ectoplasmic Form could be referenced (though he would not leave his body behind in this case). Literally all Dr. Strange's powers can be fit into one standard psionic power or another, if you tweak them just a touch for individuality. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2016 : 00:18:30
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| So neither astral or ethereal, just incorporeal? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2016 : 01:37:56
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It looks more like 'astral projection' to me. Basically, his mind is 'out for a stroll'.
In my 'power of three' theories, the physical world is where your body stays (when you die), the astral is where you mind (spirit) is 'stored' (I believe this is canon, or, at least, Planscape canon).
That leaves the 'soul' to go to the ethereal - in my homberew cosmology, the 'weigh station' (Fugue, 'place where the dead are judged', etc) should be in this area. Souls not claimed by any gods wander here (and can even interact with the 'real world' through the border ethereal), and are often captured by fiends and others (Dark Gods, Elder Evils, etc.) I picture a variety of different 'waiting rooms' in this place, including that whole thing from Beetljuice. Some sort of bureaucracy running the whole she-bang, with 'jobs' available for those with 'no plans' (so basically, like purgatory, you could possibly 'earn' your way into one of the heavens).
Also a bit of Moorcock - maybe have Faust 'wandering the mists', and perhaps the 'Gray Lords' hold sway here (True neutral gods). It would also probably appear a bit differently to everyone, depending upon your background, race, world, and faith (so perhaps an atheist or an agnostic would see the actual 'office complex' of the afterlife).
Of course, FR has its own (boring) rules about all this. A little too B&W for my tastes, and also muddied in that in some editions its part of the 'greater D&D cosmology', and other times, has its own separate one (which actually doesn't matter AT ALL, since a person will see what they expect to see - each person brings their own 'personal reality' to the astral, ethereal, and outer planes). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2016 : 01:50:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
So neither astral or ethereal, just incorporeal?
Pretty much.
Refer to 2nd Ed. AD&D Players Supplement - Complete Book of Psionics for more info.
Also, beyond all belief, for the second time this month I'm going to recommend that someone read the Abolethic Sovereignty series (which I loathe). In this case it is because one of the main characters is a dream walker with a spellscar that allows her to stretch the ability. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2016 : 03:31:25
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| Hrm. Abolethic Sovereignty. I don't know about that. Thanks though. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2016 : 19:13:06
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They where not Connected!? O.o
Did the 2nd ed psionics rules empower the psion regarding the Ether plane, compared to mages? |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2016 : 19:22:09
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| I have not yet checked the 2e Psionics Handbook yet, but I shall. I am about 75% through Plague of Spells that Masked Mage so reluctantly recommended. As a Realms book, it is atrocious, I think. It does not have, again imo, that classic FR "feel." However, if you can put the Realms bit aside, it is well written and enjoyable. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2016 : 21:29:42
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Exactly - it does not fit in the realms - part of the atrocious 4E World of FaerunCraft series :P smashing the realms to fit into the box that WOTC wanted it in. Only mentioned it due to the psionics it connects with.
Starshade - psionics have always been kind of an afterthought in AD&D. Are there psionic powers that deal with the ethereal? Yes. Compared the the abilities a mage can master they are barely touched upon. All told, psionics in all D&D were contained in less than a half dozen books (and a good number of dragon/poly articles) - and were largely centered on the Dark Sun campaign setting - where by design psionics were more common than magic, because magic caused the ancient wars or something along those lines. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2016 : 00:16:29
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2E rules were expanded and changed (and changed again) many times over the years.
PHBR5: Complete Psionics Handbook described a number of Clairsentient and Psychoportive powers which might allow a character to do what the OP describes. But these (broken) psionics rules were then revised in a number of other sources, particularly the 2E Darksun boxsets (both of them), 2E The Will and the Way (which is completely Darksun-centric), and the "2.5E" Players' Option: Skills & Powers.
The natures and properties and interactions of the planes were also revised many times. Starting with a page in the 2E DMG (which was pretty much copied verbatim from a page in the 1E DMG) and culminating in the 2E Planescape setting (which was all about describing complex planeslore in intricate detail). And the planar cosmology was almost entirely redefined in the 3E/3.5E era, several times. Then entirely reformatted reinvented again in 4E. So answers based on game rules depend a lot on which D&D game (edition) you play.
A complication is that time flows at differing rates across differing planes. Times on the Primes and Ethereals vs the Astral are out of sync by a factor of ten or more (depending on game edition). But I suppose it's not impossible for a truly superior mind to remain subjectively attentive for a span of ten minutes (or ten days, or even ten years) while viewing events which have an objective duration of just one second.
A more serious complication is that anything which happens or which wanders up to a character (or his projection) on the Ethereal or Astral planes is likely far more dangerous than anything the character might encounter on his Prime. Especially if the character's attention is focussed on other places and dimensions.
And, almost without exception, any sort of magical, mundane, or psionic warding which proofs people, places, and things from being scried upon will continue to block scrying attempts from other planes. No point in attempting to place more "distance" between the observer and observed, no point in attempting to circumvent barriers through exploiting cosmic shortcuts which don't exist. Most methods of blocking scrying will also block teleporting and travelling through transplanar or extradimensional means.
The only possible advantage a character scrying from another plane would have over a character scrying from the same plane is that - when detected - it would be more difficult to trace the path back to him.
There are already innumerable magics (and unique magics) in the game which can be used to explain any character's special (rule-breaking) abilities. Especially in the Realms, which is so littered by the spells and magics and artifacts of so many races and religions and civilizations. Maybe Doctor Strange was mutated by a freak one-of-a-kind accident involving wild-magic Spellplague fallout? Besides, according to this wikipedia article (which is everything I now know about the character, lol), Doctor Strange apparently uses magical powers learned from some kind of ancient sorcerer - I don't see any real need for antiquated psionics or clumsy planar mechanics to explain the abilities of a brilliant mutated archmage-sorcerer, lol. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Oct 2016 00:17:44 |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2016 : 01:34:22
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| The reason psionics take a central role in Dark Sun is because magic draws on the life force of the world. Prior wars and massive magical battles amongst the God-Kings and Dragons has left the world mostly a wasteland. Psionics were discovered and cultivated as a way to achieve magic like things on an essentially unlimited scale compared to the limited life force available for magical purposes. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2016 : 07:29:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Doctor Strange apparently uses magical powers learned from some kind of ancient sorcerer - I don't see any real need for antiquated psionics or clumsy planar mechanics to explain the abilities of a brilliant mutated archmage-sorcerer, lol.
True Dr. S uses magic and casts spells; however, much of what he does are magics centered on the mind... which is why I originally mentioned psionics.
A better fit for many of his abilities would come from 3rd E "pact" magics. He is a master at channeling the forces of the universe and ancient powers... I read through the D&D book about those things just once, so would be the last person to describe them in any detail...
Unfortunately, this magic too is described in great detain in the A.S. books - where one character has stolen the cloak/power of the lord of bats.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2016 : 02:52:07
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Again, I don't know anything useful at all about Doctor Strange. But your description of him and his powers is what D&D 3E/3.5 would immediately call a Sorcerer.
It's not impossible for psionics and magics to work cooperatively, even in synergy. Several of the most advanced psionics described in Dark Sun lore actually depend on certain magics to function. Psionics was always defined and handled quite poorly (as something of an afterthought) in the early D&D rulesets - it was common for psionic threats (like, say Mind Flayers) to have their abilities described with psionics in one sourcebook and magics/spells in another - or some combination of both together in yet another - then to have the cycle mixed up and repeated each time the next major game edition finally decided to (re)introduce rules for psionics.
The Realms (and some other popular game worlds/settings) also followed these do-psionics-exist-and-how-do-they-work oscillations in the game rules. Many contradictions from Ed and other sources, typically given as statements consistent with the then-current trends in psionics defined within then-current rules.
Note that any character has a tiny chance of being a psionic wild talent. That is, with access to one or a few random psionic powers (often along with their prerequisite powers) regardless of actual class.
And in the Realms, any character also has a tiny chance of possessing magical wild talent - you never know when a peasant or king or orc or fighter has an intrinsic ability to cast some simple spell. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Starshade
Learned Scribe
Norway
279 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2016 : 15:40:28
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Not sure if Dr. S for me, is translatable completely as either wizard or psion. The issue is, D&D used to have Psi as an bodily, physical force, while Magic comes from without (arcane and divine), manipulation of external forces.
Dr. S uses mental powers, but uses external powers, uses the spellbook of the Vishanti, and Calls upon the powers of the ethernal vishanti (Oshtur, Hoggoth and Agamotto). Maybe he could be compared to a Cerebremancer?
Tbh, I have toyed a bit with the idea of adapting parts of the psychic rules for Call of Cthulhu d20 to an 3.5 original campagin to make the 3.5 wizard a bit more "Dr. Strange" ish. Plus, would make summon monster spells more interesting! :D |
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Astral Projection
