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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 18:56:31
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So, Tam only recently in terms of the sheer span of time failed in his Thayan dread ring attempt, as the ending of that series was in like 1479 or so. I know he tried to do something in Neverwinter with building a tower, but I'm honestly way behind the times there. What exactly happened as an overview?
Also, at the end of the unclean/undead/unholy trilogy, we're down to four remaining Zulkirs (Lauzoril, Lallara, Samas Kul, and Nevron). Nevron has his soul ripped from his body and he's changed to a mane, so that's a likely "not returning from that". Samas Kul is torn to pieces by fanged jaws, which is a possible "not returning from that". Lauzoril is told to jump off a cliff, which I take as "probably isn't dead". Lallara is standing off against Tam, but we don't see her die. Of the other Zulkirs, Yaphyll split her soul and sent a portion into the future where it presumably met up with the spellplague (possibilities there). Dmitra Flass was killed by Malark Springhill in a physical fight after the spellplague while magic was still "iffy". Mythrell'aa (Mythrellan to some) is killed off-scene, which makes her death questionable even. Aznar Thrul was killed by a fiendish vampire prior to the spellplague. Druxus Rhym was supposedly killed by Tam because he knew too much about the ritual of the dread rings (which Druxus didn't believe would work, which is why he shared the lore with Tam... not counting on it driving the man mad..... hmmmm, a book that drives people mad into believing they are/can be gods.... Cyrinishad.... Leira posing as yet another book of lies?.... hmmmm...put that aside for now).
So, why'd I post all that about the Zulkirs? I'm wondering, was there any later lore that said any of them are definitely dead or may have returned during the 4e era?
On the dread rings, I'm wondering if there might be somewhere else that Tam may try to focus now. I'm also kind of wondering if there may not be some ties between this ritual and entropy as well... or if somehow Malark's enacting of the ritual and failure didn't somehow kick off the sundering (this is kind of spinning in my head in a churning way that I don't think I can write up completely right now, but it has to do with the maw of entropy down in Chessenta).
Anyway, I'm finding that after reading the Maztica trilogy from 20+ years ago, I want to go back and reread RLB's Thay trilogy again (although I hated what happened, I did love the trilogy).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 14:37:04
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, Tam only recently in terms of the sheer span of time failed in his Thayan dread ring attempt, as the ending of that series was in like 1479 or so. I know he tried to do something in Neverwinter with building a tower, but I'm honestly way behind the times there. What exactly happened as an overview?
Also, at the end of the unclean/undead/unholy trilogy, we're down to four remaining Zulkirs (Lauzoril, Lallara, Samas Kul, and Nevron). Nevron has his soul ripped from his body and he's changed to a mane, so that's a likely "not returning from that". Samas Kul is torn to pieces by fanged jaws, which is a possible "not returning from that". Lauzoril is told to jump off a cliff, which I take as "probably isn't dead". Lallara is standing off against Tam, but we don't see her die. Of the other Zulkirs, Yaphyll split her soul and sent a portion into the future where it presumably met up with the spellplague (possibilities there). Dmitra Flass was killed by Malark Springhill in a physical fight after the spellplague while magic was still "iffy". Mythrell'aa (Mythrellan to some) is killed off-scene, which makes her death questionable even. Aznar Thrul was killed by a fiendish vampire prior to the spellplague. Druxus Rhym was supposedly killed by Tam because he knew too much about the ritual of the dread rings (which Druxus didn't believe would work, which is why he shared the lore with Tam... not counting on it driving the man mad..... hmmmm, a book that drives people mad into believing they are/can be gods.... Cyrinishad.... Leira posing as yet another book of lies?.... hmmmm...put that aside for now).
So, why'd I post all that about the Zulkirs? I'm wondering, was there any later lore that said any of them are definitely dead or may have returned during the 4e era?
On the dread rings, I'm wondering if there might be somewhere else that Tam may try to focus now. I'm also kind of wondering if there may not be some ties between this ritual and entropy as well... or if somehow Malark's enacting of the ritual and failure didn't somehow kick off the sundering (this is kind of spinning in my head in a churning way that I don't think I can write up completely right now, but it has to do with the maw of entropy down in Chessenta).
Anyway, I'm finding that after reading the Maztica trilogy from 20+ years ago, I want to go back and reread RLB's Thay trilogy again (although I hated what happened, I did love the trilogy).
There's definitely somewhere else that Tam will focus the spell. He doesn't have a chance, since he doesn't want Bane to lay claim to his soul (even though that's a long time away). But Tam has been moving with a sense of urgency, because he knows how difficult it is now. He has to conquer a large area of land, probably at least the size of a large city, and go through a long complex ritual where everything goes perfectly.
No doubt, his best shot was the first time, and I doubt he ever gets close again. His plans in Neverwinter were foiled partly by Drizzt and Co., but mostly because the Shadovar got a foothold in Neverwinter. They were seeking Netherese treasures in the woods there. For reasons explained in RAS and Erin Evans books, devil minions of Glasya and the Abolethic Sovereignty both had interests in Neverwinter too. So the Netherese drove Tam off, but he's been exploring places all over Faerun to build more dread rings, so there is plenty to do with that. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 18:30:05
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| I still think Tam would have been disappointed with the ritual accomplishing not nearly as much as he hoped |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 02:05:00
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Szass Tam is a lich and therefore must have a phylactery. And I believe a lich's phylactery must be located in the same plane/sphere as the lich (ie, Szass Tam's phylactery must be located somewhere in RealmSpace or on Toril, likely somewhere in old Thay itself, unless he's moved it) unless the lich is willing to risk permanent death upon destruction of his body. Liches invariably have tons of magical protections and contingencies, and Szass Tam is arguably an unusual lich - but he's still not any sort of uber-lich, arch-lich, or demi-lich, he hasn't (yet) achieved truly immortal and godlike power.
It seems obvious to me that Bane knows exactly what and where Szass Tam's phylactery (and thus his unliving "soul") is. And if Bane is unable to seize control of it (along with Szass Tam) directly then he will do it indirectly - perhaps he will assign a party of priests or adventurers to fetch it for him, perhaps he will simply threaten to reveal the secret to fanatical idiots like Lathander or Talos.
Szass Tam still has most of his one thousand years to aspire to greater power than Bane, presumably by completing his Dread Ring Ritual. Or to hope that Bane's power advantage over him will diminish, not too unrealistic in a world where deities die every generation and where in fact Bane has already been killed at least once before. Szass still seems very attached to the living world, to Thay, to politics and power and manipulation, to gold and riches, even to certain people - so I don't think he's yet detached and "mature" enough (or insanely, inhumanly focussed on the purest pursuit of purist magic) to really move on to half-godlike demi-lichdom.
So perhaps Szass Tam has another option: to conceal his phylactery beyond Bane's sight or to move his phylactery beyond Bane's reach.
But he doesn't seem especially gifted with planar magics. He's a great liar and somewhat masterful at deception yet he doesn't seem especially gifted with illusions. So I expect that when the time draws near for Szass to pay his end of his bargain with Bane he will use the most obvious method of delaying it: he will trump it with a bigger bargain, with bigger stakes, made with a bigger power. Already Szass must be plotting and scheming and calculating exactly who would cost him the least and benefit him the most ... a cabal of deities (perhaps even alien deities) more powerful than Bane? Asmodeus? Mephistopheles? Cthulhu? The opportunities are endless, while Szass Tam has always owed his survival and ambition to his ability to seize opportunity. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Oct 2016 02:05:51 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 07:10:57
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The 1,000 years bargain is just too long. Bane himself might not be 1,000 years old and as Ayrik said may very well not be around in 1,000 years. Makes no sense that agree to such a long term
All in all IMHO this whole scene between Szass and Bane was the low point of that series and actually made me put down the book for some time.
A mortal abduction a greater power against her will from within her own realm and binding it to the prime. Yes Bane could have broken the binding if he had put more effort into it. But that's already the problem. Ignoring the fact that Szass should have never been able to bring him there, Bane should have been able to leave at will and not even noticing that doing so would shatter some bindings (like a human in thick winter clothing never noticing walking through some cobweb)
Also this secene now invites a lot of certainly unintended comparisions. If Szass could do that much to Bane, what could he do to Umberlee? And what could Larloch do to Bane then or to Umberlee?
And comparing this interaction between Szass and one of the most powerful greater deities of Faerun to the interaction between Telamont and his quasi/demigod son, that would put Szass way beyong Telamont in terms of power.
Being able to give a greater deity a bloody nose and a black eye vs. being uncertain how much one is even able to harm a quasi/demigod before going down. |
Edited by - Mirtek on 04 Oct 2016 07:21:35 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 15:14:21
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Yeah, I thought that that one piece (him holding Bane) was a bit unbelievable. On this, I go somewhat towards there may have been other motives (i.e. Bane saw a chance to get something, and in return what did he really give up? Some knowledge about spellcasting? What did he gain? A country which Tam agrees will all worship Bane, and if they don't Bane can claim breach of contract and possibly come sooner than one thousand years...).
Back to the original question though. Where do you think he'd try next? The hordelands are sparsely populated, but also not very "full of life". Rashemen would be great, but its got defenders out the wazoo. Thesk could also work. I'm inclined to look down at the Shaar, and towards the area formerly known as Eltabranar. It already has some undead (the death knights who served Myrkul). If I recall correctly, the agreement was that THAY would worship Bane, but not necessarily anywhere else he conquers, and he has long had ties with Myrkul. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 19:26:51
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Bane did seem like an arbitrary, almost random choice. Szass Tam is a Zulkir of Necromancy, a lich, a deceptively political and secretively pragmatic manipulator. Yes, he grew up in Thay, a place well-known for slavery and tyranny. But tyranny over armies of mindless undead rampaging through a nation of animated zombies hardly seems meaningful. I think Myrkul or Jergal or good old Thayan Kossuth would have been far a better choice. Mask or Asmodeus or Mephistopheles would have been ideal choices, though obviously Wizbro had other plans for them. But a god of bullies who (you think) can be bullied is quite unworthy of being summoned, lol.
I'd put the books down long before the deal with Bane. Summoning and binding a greater Power was just another piece of over-the-top ridiculous auctorial inflation to take in stride by this point. I was still seething in rage that I'd wasted my time reading into a trilogy which took an abrupt left turn (HELLO EVERYBODY WE'D LIKE TO HERALD OUR NEW 4E PRODUCT WITH THE "SPELLPLAGUE"!) and rendered the story-so-far from the first two books entirely irrelevant. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 20:04:25
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| Velsharoon would have been a good fit. This kind of interaction would be much more plausible at their respective power levels and their former rivalry would have made it all the more interesting. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 20:18:37
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WHAT IF... it WAS Velsharoon*? 
That actually makes a lot of sense on several levels - making a deal he (or Bane himself) never had to live-up to; it would not have been binding because he wasn't Bane!
The logic is better (power-levels, deity-choice involvement, etc), and we could spin it that he did so behind Bane's back, or with Bane's blessing. Having Szass Tam tricked by an evil god sounds much more in-line with the setting, and the known power-levels of all other beings involved.
EDIT:
*Or Xvim, which could also work, and on some levels, make even more sense. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Oct 2016 20:21:17 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 20:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
WHAT IF... it WAS Velsharoon*?
That actually makes a lot of sense on several levels - making a deal he (or Bane himself) never had to live-up to; it would not have been binding because he wasn't Bane!
The logic is better (power-levels, deity-choice involvement, etc), and we could spin it that he did so behind Bane's back, or with Bane's blessing. Having Szass Tam tricked by an evil god sounds much more in-line with the setting, and the known power-levels of all other beings involved.
EDIT:
*Or Xvim, which could also work, and on some levels, make even more sense.
I was going to suggest it could have been Xvim, since I maintain he is Bane.  |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 23:45:17
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Karsus, the most powerful arcanist of ancient Netheril, was able to cast the only known 12th-level spell and seize the power of a god. Epic priests can (at their deity's discretion) be granted Quest-level magic which could allow them (at their deity's discretion) to summon their deity or even merge into a temporary avatar. Van Richten described immortal liches (fueled far beyond normal lichy powers, capabilities, and raw evilness by the Demiplane of Dread itself) being able to cast dangerous rituals of immense power and sometimes temporarily command godlike powers. Larloch commands a legion of liches and has powers over the Weave which even Mystra cannnot fathom, yet has never challenged the gods. Telamont was once Lord Shadow of ancient Netheril, the most gifted protege of Karsus, and now an immortal shade commanding magical power which could chain Mephistopheles and perhaps challenge the gods. A vast group of elven Highmages led by Khelben and other Chosens were able, just barely and with great sacrifice, with the power of mythals, to defeat the Phaerimm invasion, while the gods dared not intervene.
Even if you assume Xvim is not Bane and is just a small god of limited scope and power, Xvim is still a god.
Even if you assume Szass is more powerful than the average lich, Szass is still a lich.
What power could Szass possibly have over any god, even a puny little godling like Xvim? Szass can cast 9th- and even (with Mystra's special permission, lol) 10th-level spells, he can perhaps even duplicate 11th-level magics or Richten-like lich powers through complex and risky rituals. But he is not a god, he's not even a Larloch or a Telamont, and I seriously doubt his Dread Ring ritual would ever make him into one. If the Dread Ring ritual does do anything, it's likely far less powerful than Karsus's 12th-level spell which really only affected a single goddess (albeit the most powerful goddess, and - due to Karsus's own prideful errors - in a cataclysmic way which forever reshaped the Realms). I suspect the Dread Ring ritual is just a manifestation of power-mad lich insanity, probably far more destructive in preparation and execution than intended effect.
But a god could always voluntarily choose to respond to a summons. And voluntarily choose to remain "bound" (in appearance, anyhow). A god could even choose to allow an arrogant, overblown half-immortal lich think whatever he needs to think as explanation for the god's presence. Bane is Lawful-aligned, so it's reasonable to assume he intends to actually abide by and enforce his agreement. And Bane is Evil-aligned, so it's reasonable to assume he intends to selfishly benefit from his agreement. And Bane is the God of Tyranny, so it's reasonable to assume that he (rightfully!) expects to be in charge of an underling and expects a reward for lending some of his own power to the underling to better accomplish his own Tyrannical goals.
I note an interesting coincidence, especially since this agreement was made shortly before the Spellplague. In olden AD&D lore, Mystra was the only goddess with enough foresight to cache "shards" of her divine power within the Realms, and one of these seeds of her power is the only reason she was reborn (after her own death at the hands of another god) as Mystra/Midnight when the Time of Troubles and the Avatar Crisis passed. Could Bane be playing a long game where he not only survives the impending Spellplague but also survives any future edition plagues, finally winning all of the grand prizes (and a cool-looking undead avatar) after one thousand years?
Bane is not a deceptive god, lesser gods play at lies and illusions and intrigues. Bane never manipulates and influences things in subtle indirect ways when direct force and power of authority can control them far better. Bane never struck me as a gambling god, chance is fickle and only a fool or weakling would submit to the whimsical Goddess of Fortune instead of just taking what he wants. So if Bane knows something about future events that the other Faerunian gods don't then I have to ask how and where did he learn it and who told it to him? Perhaps Bane knows more about the Dread Ring ritual (or some other prophecy) which affects the fates of the gods than anyone else ever suspected. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 05 Oct 2016 00:27:55 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2016 : 14:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
WHAT IF... it WAS Velsharoon*?
That actually makes a lot of sense on several levels - making a deal he (or Bane himself) never had to live-up to; it would not have been binding because he wasn't Bane!
The logic is better (power-levels, deity-choice involvement, etc), and we could spin it that he did so behind Bane's back, or with Bane's blessing. Having Szass Tam tricked by an evil god sounds much more in-line with the setting, and the known power-levels of all other beings involved.
EDIT:
*Or Xvim, which could also work, and on some levels, make even more sense.
Have I said lately Markus that I love the way your mind works sometimes? Let me reiterate.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2016 : 16:21:53
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So, the "tome of Fastrin the delver" (note actual book title I don't think was ever given) was found by Fastrin the delver (a good wizard in the Sunrise Mountains, where his kingdom that he ruled was) in the time following the fall of Netheril. Said book came from "the dawn of time" and contained "the death of the world". Fastrin then lost the book and went mad and started killing everyone in his kingdom in the deranged attempt to save the world by preventing anyone attempting the ritual on the off chance that they were the thief.
So, I note a few things
A) this book was "found" just following Karsus' Folly. Might it have been something that Karsus actually had perused?
B) Fastrin was likely a Raumathari wizard (or a remnant of the Raumathari diaspora), just because if he were of Mulhorandi descent, he wouldn't have had a kingdom.
C) this book supposedly lays out a ritual in which someone can essentially "remake" an existing crystal sphere (essentially becoming Ao).
D) the book essentially made Fastrin go mad and may be cursed.
E) Szass Tam already held the Death Moon Orb, which had a curse already which should be affecting him.
Curse. The alignment of the user of the Orb eventually shifts to chaotic evil. The Orb also compels its user to greater and greater acts of evil until the user is infamous as a monster of complete wickedness and cruelty. Such individuals invariably perish in some fashion unless, like Tam and Larloch, they continue on as undead creatures and care not what others think of them.
F) The Cyrinishad was an artifact book that made its reader believe he had a power that he could in effect replace Ao. NOTE: in my homebrew, I have established that the Cyrinishad IS something akin to an Avatar of Leira.
Where did Fastrin the delver get the book? Did he maybe get it by invading Karsus enclave?
Given the above, and assuming I'm correct on F about the Cyrinishad/Leira.... what if Leira had seeded the realms with other artifact books of this sort that were some kind of repository of her own power as a means to return herself to life. Essentially, the ritual caster casts the ritual and it essentially "bares their soul" to the ritual, and whoever casts the ritual must be pretty powerful. This might be a means by which Leira can return from the dead using the power of a spellcaster and his ritual (which probably has a ton of powerful ingredients as well which can also offer up mystical energy). It does also drain a large amount of "life energy" from the land itself.
Given this idea.... IF Savras had foreseen a need to reboot the gods of magic in the future to kick off say the return of Mystra... bear with me a second and improve upon this idea with me...
Leira is the book and thereby the ritual. Malark, the monk of the long death, wants to enact the ritual and bring death to the world. Szass Tam invests a large amount of his own power, time, and resources into prepping the ritual. When Malark enacts the ritual, it infuses Leira with power.
The city of Amruthar (beneath which was a powerful "artifact" that quit working just after the ToT) has been filled with burning lava since the spellplague and held a temple to Kossuth despite the ban on non-Banites in Thay. Could the artifact be some aspect of Kossuth, and he is merged with the land of Thay. This artifact essentially spoils the land, which might actually affect Kossuth (whether in a good way or a bad way, I'm not sure). Essentially, could enacting of this ritual and failing have acted as something like an anti-magnetic field and started pushing Toril away from Abeir (i.e. kicking off the sundering).
This part may be a bit of a stretch
Velsharoon "died" fighting "the Simbul" relatively near to Thay. Could he have actually been infusing his essence into the dread rings? If he were "teaching" Szass Tam how to reuse magic, might he have tampered with what he taught the man such that it served the purpose of the gods of magic/Mystra? It is noted in the books that Tam says he "didn't know anything about the shadow weave, but he'd be willing to learn the concepts if it helped him". Given that the shadow weave is tied to Karsus and empowers necromancy, illusion, and enchantment magics.... and given that Velsharoon did have some kind of interaction with Shar (was he being a triple spy)..... might the dread rings somehow have had some kind of ties to shadow magic/Karsus?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
Edited by - sleyvas on 05 Oct 2016 16:27:42 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2016 : 16:35:22
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| Also, just to note the above... could some of this have been why Mystra told her chosen to quit killing red wizards just prior to the spellplague? Did Savras tell her something, but only enough that she wouldn't change the timeline adversely (or perhaps even he didn't have a full concept of why he needed to recommend this step). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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RavenShadow
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2016 : 20:00:12
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I've read these books, but I can't remember what time frame they happened in. I thought it was canon that Iyachtu Xvim was consumed by his father Bane, when he used Xvim's body to re-emerge from death and then took Xvim's portfolios. That happened in 1372 DR, correct?. Since Iyachtu Xvim was a lesser deity at the time he was consumed by Bane, would that not make Bane a lesser deity also? Still far more powerful than Szass Tam should have been able to compel, but maybe he was curious?
sleyvas, when you say that Karsus' Avatar spell was fueled by the shadow weave, is that a ret-con? In the original Netheril boxed set, it talks about Karsus' Folly as being the reason that Mystra capped spells at 9th level. Did WotC change the backstory of his fall and the destruction of Netheril? |
Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand this storm." The warrior whispers back, "I am the storm." |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2016 : 23:55:30
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quote:
Originally posted by RavenShadow
I've read these books, but I can't remember what time frame they happened in. I thought it was canon that Iyachtu Xvim was consumed by his father Bane, when he used Xvim's body to re-emerge from death and then took Xvim's portfolios. That happened in 1372 DR, correct?.
It's canon that Bane appeared to erupt from Xvim's body, and that no one is now responding to the name Xvim.
However, I don't consider that proof-positive that Xvim is gone and Bane is back...
Here's some bits of oddness with Bane 2.0.
Bane 2.0 is not using the holy symbol that Bane 1.0 used.
Bane 1.0 favored red and black. Bane 2.0 favors green and black. Iyachtu Xvim, the Baneson, also favors green and black.
There is a critter called the Black Beast of Bane. In the write-up of that beast, it notes that Bane 2.0 -- like Xvim -- likes manifestations involving evil critters and carnivores. That was not something Bane 1.0 favored. When I speculated on this in the Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land adventure discussion, Eric L Boyd's response was "Glad you're having fun speculating. ;-)". I admit that is far from an admission of anything, but it's also not a statement that I was on the wrong track.
The return of Bane was heralded by a vision of him bursting forth from Xvim, with those receiving the vision waking to find cold green flames enveloping their hands. Here's the real kicker, though: Only Xvim's faithful received this vision. Any who had remained faithful to Bane, or who had converted to Cyric, didn't receive that vision. So the only ones who saw it were the ones that would need to be convinced to switch from Xvim to Bane... And those worshippers would be the only ones Xvim could send a vision to. The strategy worked: most of them did convert to Bane.
Xvim has previously masqueraded as another deity, with the intent of getting more power out of the deal. And in the Realms, it's not uncommon for one deity to assume the identity of a fallen deity, even if the fallen one had nothing in common with the usurper -- like Shar and Ibrandul, Cyric and Leira, or Lolth and Moander.
So, Xvim's worshippers, whom he would want to retain while masquerading as someone else, received a vision directing them to worship the reborn Bane, who uses Xvim's colors, Xvim's favored manifestations, and who does not use his old holy symbol.
And this is what got me to thinking.
There are three possible conclusions:
1) It really is Bane 1.0, with no trace of Xvim. Bane 1.0 has inexplicably decided to act like his son, rather than sticking with centuries of habit. It is my opinion that this is unlikely enough to be dismissed.
2) Bane 2.0 is some mix of Bane 1.0 and Xvim. Maybe he is a gestalt entity; pieces of both have combined to form something new. Or perhaps Xvim is not fully subsumed into Bane, and we are seeing parts of him leaking thru. This was my original theory.
3) Bane 1.0 is dead and gone. Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. This is my current, preferred theory.
Of course, it's all theories. I've taken some odd facts and assembled them into a picture I find pleasing, but that doesn't mean it's the only possible picture, and it doesn't mean I'm not reading into things. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2016 : 19:15:35
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Another possibility is that Bane - after emerging from Xvim's bdody - later recreated/resurrected* Xvim as an Exarch, and he may have even done so just to respond to Tam's 'summons'. Thus, they could both be alive in 4e/5e.
*It could be just as simple as him bringing him back from the afterlife, or he could have done one of those more complex things: took a piece of his own power and created a self-aware, semi-autonomous avatar (know as a 'Manifestation in the Old Empires). I think the later scenario fits better with the lore, because he and Xvim were 'merged' at that point, and he may have wanted to get that 'stuff' out of him.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2016 19:16:41 |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2016 : 21:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
3) Bane 1.0 is dead and gone. Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. This is my current, preferred theory.
This heresy is repeated in Monument of the Ancients by the banites of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan. And it should be noted that heresies have been proven true in the past. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2016 : 21:27:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
3) Bane 1.0 is dead and gone. Bane 2.0 is Iyachtu Xvim impersonating his late father; he has gotten a huge power boost by using his father's name and reputation. This is my current, preferred theory.
This heresy is repeated in Monument of the Ancients by the banites of the Lyceum of the Black Lord in Phlan. And it should be noted that heresies have been proven true in the past.
You do realize that these "hey, you MAY be right" teasers are a special kind of torment, right?  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2016 : 02:11:30
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quote:
Originally posted by RavenShadow
I've read these books, but I can't remember what time frame they happened in. I thought it was canon that Iyachtu Xvim was consumed by his father Bane, when he used Xvim's body to re-emerge from death and then took Xvim's portfolios. That happened in 1372 DR, correct?. Since Iyachtu Xvim was a lesser deity at the time he was consumed by Bane, would that not make Bane a lesser deity also? Still far more powerful than Szass Tam should have been able to compel, but maybe he was curious?
sleyvas, when you say that Karsus' Avatar spell was fueled by the shadow weave, is that a ret-con? In the original Netheril boxed set, it talks about Karsus' Folly as being the reason that Mystra capped spells at 9th level. Did WotC change the backstory of his fall and the destruction of Netheril?
Not that Karsus' Avatar spell was fueled by the shadow weave.... that as a result of Karsus spell, the shadow weave was formed (or at least he became a focal point for it). This came about partly with some of the lore in 3e with the Netherese returning. I don't remember the product though. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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RavenShadow
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2016 : 00:04:36
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Not that Karsus' Avatar spell was fueled by the shadow weave.... that as a result of Karsus spell, the shadow weave was formed (or at least he became a focal point for it). This came about partly with some of the lore in 3e with the Netherese returning. I don't remember the product though.
[/quote]
Gotcha. Thanks. |
Fate whispers to the warrior, "You cannot withstand this storm." The warrior whispers back, "I am the storm." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 00:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
F) The Cyrinishad was an artifact book that made its reader believe he had a power that he could in effect replace Ao. NOTE: in my homebrew, I have established that the Cyrinishad IS something akin to an Avatar of Leira.
A minor correction:
The Cyrinishad was an artifact book (or, more correctly, an unholy relic and religious canon) that forced its reader to unswervingly convert to the faith of the newly-arisen Dark Sun (or to be driven irretrievably insane, perhaps, if a reader has godlike willpower and stubbornly rejects conversion to this dark faith). It had nothing to do with Ao, aside from being Cyric's method of exploiting Ao's decree (that after the Avatar Crisis, each deity's power would be directly defined by that deity's sheer number and power of faithful worshippers).
In game terms, anyone opening this book or reading even a single passage was compelled (by the power of a greater god) to read the entire tome, then to immediately become a cleric/priest of Cyric (abandoning any previous classes or previously-worshipped deities). Alignment change wasn't enforced, although it could only be a matter of time before a reader's outlook shifted irrevocably towards Cyric's own. [Specialty priests of Cyric were admittedly a very potent character class in 2E-era sourcebooks, though not so much in the novels.]
Fzoul Chembryl - always the most avidly fanatical champion (and ultimately the Exarch) of Bane - became Cyric's somewhat reluctant but most unquestionably zealous champion after being ordered to read the Cyrinishad - and he was only able to return to worship of Bane through Bane's direct intervention, long after Cyric's godly powers were vastly diminished.
Mask (then an Intermediate Power manifested in the Godsbane avatar) was fully exposed to the then-unopposable conversion powers of the Cyrinishad. To retain his divinity and sanity, Mask was forced to divest himself of much godly power (briefly becoming a mere Demigod, losing his sword avatar, and forever losing several divine portfolios to Cyric). Reading again The Prince of Lies and The Crucible / The Trial of Cyric the Mad, I notice that as Cyric progresses in his ambitious and difficult Cyrinishad project (and Mask becomes increasingly exposed to it), Mask's powers of intrigue and deception (spanning numerous plots across the entire Realms) inexorably shifts more and more into phase with Cyric's plans to rush the completion (and the reading?) of the Cyrinishad ... until finally the work is complete and Mask (along with every one of his clever schemes, manipulations, and deceptions, including his guise as Godsbane) becomes unravelled. It is subtly revealed that Mask has served none of his own interests (aside from outrunning the Chaos Hound) while having indirectly and unknowingly accomplished all of the ever-changing goals of Cyric the Mad.
The Cyrinishad is apparently filled with a detailed "history", describing all the exaggerated, elaborated, and fabricated achievements or glories of Cyric's life (as a mortal, then as a god, destined to become supreme ruler of the entire Realms and all worlds beyond). Once described by one of my players as being "written by a madman, filled with lies, irrational, sometimes incomprehensible; and yet utterly, impossibly believable and utterly impossible to disbelieve".
Of course anything goes in homebrew. Godsbane (aka pre-Cyrinishad Mask) was intimately involved in every detail (and every killing) encompassed by the Cyrinishad's construction. And - if Leira was indeed slain by Cyric - then Godsbane (aka pre-Cyrinishad Mask) would've obviously been the tool used for the job, so some of Leira's power could have intermingled with Mask, with Cyric, and within the unholy Cyrinishad itself. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 25 Oct 2016 01:46:36 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2016 : 14:00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
F) The Cyrinishad was an artifact book that made its reader believe he had a power that he could in effect replace Ao. NOTE: in my homebrew, I have established that the Cyrinishad IS something akin to an Avatar of Leira.
A minor correction:
The Cyrinishad was an artifact book (or, more correctly, an unholy relic and religious canon) that forced its reader to unswervingly convert to the faith of the newly-arisen Dark Sun (or to be driven irretrievably insane, perhaps, if a reader has godlike willpower and stubbornly rejects conversion to this dark faith). It had nothing to do with Ao, aside from being Cyric's method of exploiting Ao's decree (that after the Avatar Crisis, each deity's power would be directly defined by that deity's sheer number and power of faithful worshippers).
In game terms, anyone opening this book or reading even a single passage was compelled (by the power of a greater god) to read the entire tome, then to immediately become a cleric/priest of Cyric (abandoning any previous classes or previously-worshipped deities). Alignment change wasn't enforced, although it could only be a matter of time before a reader's outlook shifted irrevocably towards Cyric's own. [Specialty priests of Cyric were admittedly a very potent character class in 2E-era sourcebooks, though not so much in the novels.]
Fzoul Chembryl - always the most avidly fanatical champion (and ultimately the Exarch) of Bane - became Cyric's somewhat reluctant but most unquestionably zealous champion after being ordered to read the Cyrinishad - and he was only able to return to worship of Bane through Bane's direct intervention, long after Cyric's godly powers were vastly diminished.
Mask (then an Intermediate Power manifested in the Godsbane avatar) was fully exposed to the then-unopposable conversion powers of the Cyrinishad. To retain his divinity and sanity, Mask was forced to divest himself of much godly power (briefly becoming a mere Demigod, losing his sword avatar, and forever losing several divine portfolios to Cyric). Reading again The Prince of Lies and The Crucible / The Trial of Cyric the Mad, I notice that as Cyric progresses in his ambitious and difficult Cyrinishad project (and Mask becomes increasingly exposed to it), Mask's powers of intrigue and deception (spanning numerous plots across the entire Realms) inexorably shifts more and more into phase with Cyric's plans to rush the completion (and the reading?) of the Cyrinishad ... until finally the work is complete and Mask (along with every one of his clever schemes, manipulations, and deceptions, including his guise as Godsbane) becomes unravelled. It is subtly revealed that Mask has served none of his own interests (aside from outrunning the Chaos Hound) while having indirectly and unknowingly accomplished all of the ever-changing goals of Cyric the Mad.
The Cyrinishad is apparently filled with a detailed "history", describing all the exaggerated, elaborated, and fabricated achievements or glories of Cyric's life (as a mortal, then as a god, destined to become supreme ruler of the entire Realms and all worlds beyond). Once described by one of my players as being "written by a madman, filled with lies, irrational, sometimes incomprehensible; and yet utterly, impossibly believable and utterly impossible to disbelieve".
Of course anything goes in homebrew. Godsbane (aka pre-Cyrinishad Mask) was intimately involved in every detail (and every killing) encompassed by the Cyrinishad's construction. And - if Leira was indeed slain by Cyric - then Godsbane (aka pre-Cyrinishad Mask) would've obviously been the tool used for the job, so some of Leira's power could have intermingled with Mask, with Cyric, and within the unholy Cyrinishad itself.
Yeah, what I state about believing one can even defy Ao came from the novels. Cyric at some point begins to believe if only for a few moments that he can become an overgod. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Zulkirs / Dread Rings
