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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 01:24:05
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Could not disagree more... Fzoul's life story never made any sense if you ask me. He was a powerful, but only moderately so cleric who repeatedly switches his allegiance from god to god - and they are so poorly written that they just keep rewarding him with more power so he can (in the next edition) turn coat again. :P
I was always under the impression that Fzoul was insanely powerful, otherwise how would he keep Manshoon in check?
I would expect that it's not just personal power in the form of levels... I would expect it to be alliances with other powerful types, political power, personal power, and the power of the church at his back.
Good points and understood. But on a personal level , as a Chosen of Bane, I'm betting he wasn't your typical run of the mill 15th level cleric.
Go back to the Ruins of Zhentil Keep Box and read everything about Manshoon and Fzoul. Manshoon gave Fzoul MUCH of his power through political maneuvering. He did it to strip that power from others who openly opposed him and seize control of Zhentil keep. They were tentative allies, who never really directly opposed each other. It was the most beautiful power struggle in the realms; another reason I hated the insane power boost Fzoul got. All the nuance of the Zhentarim was gone in an instant. Back then the Zhents had their fingers in everything but could not quite control anything beyond their limited sphere - then BAM ... ZHENT POWER ZHENT POWER ZHENT POWER... so clumsy. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 12:24:08
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ive yet to think up a suitable explanation (for me) for the tyrant fog that doesnt involve a god somewhere.
Ive come up with an alternative for the stonewalk nonsense and the forging of that sceptre. I figure fzoul stumbled across a network of portals left by the dark three and pieces of a broken item of theirs (maybe myrkuls staff) and he retraced their journey around the inner sea to reforge it.
The tyrant fog i draw a blank on at the moment though
For me Tyrantfog happened when Fzoul struck a banelich with a scepter of sorcerer king (an imaskari artefact) that blasted the divine power from him and this itself started a process of siphoning Bane's power from artefacts and other baneliches and clerics (and Xvim) that Bane invested in and ended in ressurection of Bane as a diety. When he found out what happened and that Fzoul did not survive this blast he ressurected him also and made him his chosen as a reward for his actions.
I know that scepter has another backstory but it suited me this way better. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 15:55:46
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| I do not like repeating the old stuff so slayer fest for godhood is not good for me. Bhaal already did that (and possibly failed, at least up to 5 ed). |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 16:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Ive yet to think up a suitable explanation (for me) for the tyrant fog that doesnt involve a god somewhere.
Ive come up with an alternative for the stonewalk nonsense and the forging of that sceptre. I figure fzoul stumbled across a network of portals left by the dark three and pieces of a broken item of theirs (maybe myrkuls staff) and he retraced their journey around the inner sea to reforge it.
The tyrant fog i draw a blank on at the moment though
For me Tyrantfog happened when Fzoul struck a banelich with a scepter of sorcerer king (an imaskari artefact) that blasted the divine power from him and this itself started a process of siphoning Bane's power from artefacts and other baneliches and clerics (and Xvim) that Bane invested in and ended in ressurection of Bane as a diety. When he found out what happened and that Fzoul did not survive this blast he ressurected him also and made him his chosen as a reward for his actions.
I know that scepter has another backstory but it suited me this way better.
This is at least more interesting than the canon version. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 18:44:48
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Okay bringing up this concept.
I kind of want to create an adventure where Fzoul returns in the aftermath resurrected to act as a big bad of the realms.
I want to entrench him, make him competent, but ultimately defeatable (even if it's just for another day).
With the changes in 5e, just seeing where the avatar of the god of tyranny would start to work his magic.
Whose in charge of the zhents right now, and more importantly, whose in charge?
and with the zhents being a pc faction, how can this be used? |
check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com |
Edited by - shades of eternity on 02 Oct 2016 18:45:52 |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 19:20:44
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Fzoul's return sent a big signal to a lot of Zhentarims and shook their power structure. If you want him to be big bad Z you cannot let PC's near him and let them work with rumors. As we know Fzoul started to prepare his takeover from that point and so he did much political maneuvering to cut Manshoon from power and support possibly without his knowledge. This gives you much opportunity for Zhentarim PC's to work for either side and they might get suspicious about tasks they are given. If they are bold they might start asking questions around and find out but they also risk reprisal from Fzoul and others who do not want their plan revealed yet.
If you let Sememnon keep the Darkhold than you have entire third party inside zhents that could play another game to balance Fzoul and Manshoon as he did for most of his carier. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2016 : 20:35:58
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quote:
Originally posted by shades of eternity
Okay bringing up this concept.
I kind of want to create an adventure where Fzoul returns in the aftermath resurrected to act as a big bad of the realms.
I want to entrench him, make him competent, but ultimately defeatable (even if it's just for another day).
With the changes in 5e, just seeing where the avatar of the god of tyranny would start to work his magic.
Whose in charge of the zhents right now, and more importantly, whose in charge?
and with the zhents being a pc faction, how can this be used?
You definitely have any opportunity here, based on the novels.
SPOILERS
SPOILERS
1) In Spellstorm, it was revealed that Manshoon has been carrying a divine spark in him for years. Mystra gave it to him thinking to make him a Chosen, but of course he became even more power hungry. So she told Elminster to remove it, which he did. It was quite an interesting sequence of events, and it depowered Manshoon a lot.
2) In Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, it's revealed that Kirenkirsalai (a vampire lieutenant of Manshoon's) has reformed the 3 artifacts of the Night King and accumulated a powerful following of vampires. The novel mentioned that Manshoon may be upset about this power play, as he once tried to rule Westgate (where the Night Masks are based).
Conclusion: We have a depowered Manshoon with one of his top minions in open rebellion. Plus, Cyric is no longer imprisoned in 5e. Manshoon is in a rough position trying to stave off Cyricists and Banites, who will both want control of his assets. Plus, he may have someone looking to pay him back for all the trouble he's caused in Cormyr lately.
The way I see it, Manshoon will need a powerful ally to maintain his hold over the Zhentarim and to reclaim the Night Masks. Who better than Fzoul Chembryl, the devil he knows?  |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 01:42:15
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Might be splitting hairs, but Manshoon has been carrying a divine spark of Mystryl, not Mystra. And I'm not sure she gave it to him either...
quote:
...something this particular clone of Manshoon carries within himself: An enchanted spindle that holds a spark of the fire of the goddess Mystryl. It is this divine essence that has allowed Manshoon to wield the Art far above his real mastery for centuries.
El removes it by the end of the book on Mystra's orders. Mystra does indeed describe Manshoon as one of her "wayward Chosen", but it's unclear (if I recall correctly) if Mystra gave him the spindle with a part of Mystryl inside it, or if he found it for himself. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 03 Oct 2016 01:42:59 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 05:19:11
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I think it is important to say A MANSHOON... at this time there are still at least 3... perhaps they all have some spark or perhaps only the one did... such wonderful possibilities
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 05:22:19
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| Also, we are now back to the old Mystra - not Midnight. That means that she is the reincarnation of Mystryl (so while different in form are the same in spirit). |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 05:27:42
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Was Manshoon's quasi-divinity retconned after The Ruins of Zhentil Keep boxed set? He had a fairly straight forward history: He, his brother, and Lord Chess were adventurers, picked up a spell book, and got hooked. Murders brother (unceremoniously) and commences to take over the Keep. Picks up a buddy in Fzoul and uses him to get rid of the Orthodox Banites which were backing Manshoon's enemies.
Going into the 3rd Ed, things got wonky. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 05:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I think it is important to say A MANSHOON... at this time there are still at least 3... perhaps they all have some spark or perhaps only the one did... such wonderful possibilities
"A" Manshoon is definitely fair, though I had thought it had been said that the vampire Manshoon was the last standing "active on Toril" clones at this point? Does your reference to the "at least 3 others" refer to the other warded or still sleeping clones in the "Manshoon the Manyfaced" article, or something else? I had assumed that the current Manshoon's backup clones referred to in Spellstorm came from amongst these, or more that he had created since.
In any case, the spindle containing Mystryl's divine spark seems to be a physical object, so I don't think any other clones would have access to it. Of course, there could be more spindles, or Mystra may not have given Elminster the whole picture...
Edit: I forgot about the active clones that are supposedly active in Ombraldar and far Shanooth according to Ed in the Qs for Ed thread, circa 13th of March, 2014. Though that was back in 1479, so hard to pinpoint their current status... |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 03 Oct 2016 05:47:49 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 05:56:25
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| I was talking about the 2 in Q's for Ed. Also, my interpretation of the answers we have about it leads me to believe at least one of the others clones keeps himself inside extra-dimensional locations. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 06:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Might be splitting hairs, but Manshoon has been carrying a divine spark of Mystryl, not Mystra. And I'm not sure she gave it to him either...
quote:
...something this particular clone of Manshoon carries within himself: An enchanted spindle that holds a spark of the fire of the goddess Mystryl. It is this divine essence that has allowed Manshoon to wield the Art far above his real mastery for centuries.
El removes it by the end of the book on Mystra's orders. Mystra does indeed describe Manshoon as one of her "wayward Chosen", but it's unclear (if I recall correctly) if Mystra gave him the spindle with a part of Mystryl inside it, or if he found it for himself.
Good point. That part was done rather quickly, and we didn't get much info. Ed is great about telling you just enough to get you on the edge of your set, then moving on to something else. I'm assuming he'll get another novel to tie up his storyline, but I haven't heard anything yet.
I would ask about the spark though: is that even possible? I'm not familiar with anyone receiving a divine spark from Mystra any other way than her giving it? I doubt it's something you can find or take from someone else.
Although, there was the instance in Paul Kemp's books of people actually taking the divine spark from a demigod and splitting it 3 ways. So I guess there is precedent for that sort of thing. |
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Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 08:53:56
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quote:
Originally posted by KanzenAU
Might be splitting hairs, but Manshoon has been carrying a divine spark of Mystryl, not Mystra. And I'm not sure she gave it to him either...
quote:
...something this particular clone of Manshoon carries within himself: An enchanted spindle that holds a spark of the fire of the goddess Mystryl. It is this divine essence that has allowed Manshoon to wield the Art far above his real mastery for centuries.
El removes it by the end of the book on Mystra's orders. Mystra does indeed describe Manshoon as one of her "wayward Chosen", but it's unclear (if I recall correctly) if Mystra gave him the spindle with a part of Mystryl inside it, or if he found it for himself.
Where has it been said that it was Mystryl and not Mystra 1.0? I mean Manshoon most definetely has NOT been alive during Mystryls time. You are confusing that to Larloch being chosen of Mystryl? |
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Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 09:12:46
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It was in Spellstorm, the quote given above IIRC was Mystra speaking to El when she gave him his mission.
When I read it, I had two thoughts on the matter.
Firstly, this was a good "in universe" explanation as to how the various Manshoon's over the years were of too low level to create the Stasis Clone spell- the spindle gave him the levels he needed.
Secondly, I wondered if this was some hidden secret of Manshoon's power, or if it was Ed writing an explanation for TSR/WOTC game stats vs game lore contradiction.
Manshoon though is certainly one of my favourite "villains" |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 09:17:27
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That quote is a direct quote of Mystra speaking to Elminster in Spellstorm. No confusion.
The fact that it's Mystryl's and not Mystra's spark in the spindle is what led me to believe that Manshoon "discovered it" rather than was given it. The details don't exist, but my guess is that part of Mystryl's divine spark had been secured in objects prior to Karsus's Folly, either by her as part of a plan for the new Mystra, or perhaps even by one of her Chosen - Larloch for example. Manshoon then would have obtained it somewhere along the way. As of the end of Spellstorm, that spark has been reincorporated into the current Mystra, giving more credence to the "the new Mystra is all the Mystras (and Mystryl)" creedo.
A second point of interest is that Spellstorm killed off or depowered a significant number of the most powerful archmages in the Realms. Manshoon was no exception - with El taking that spindle away from him, he would be unlikely to be half the mage he used to be, if that quote from Mystra is truthful. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 09:42:53
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quote:
I would ask about the spark though: is that even possible? I'm not familiar with anyone receiving a divine spark from Mystra any other way than her giving it? I doubt it's something you can find or take from someone else.
Although, there was the instance in Paul Kemp's books of people actually taking the divine spark from a demigod and splitting it 3 ways. So I guess there is precedent for that sort of thing.
I could be wrong, but wasn't Mystra 2.0's survival through to the modern era linked to some of Midnight's mortal blood being spilled on objects, in essence helping to preserve her divine essence? I found the whole scene in Elminster Must Die Bury Elminster Deepwith the bear and everything very confusing, and I've never had a good handle on it. |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
Edited by - KanzenAU on 03 Oct 2016 10:03:14 |
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shades of eternity
Learned Scribe
288 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 12:47:48
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Man I'm liking the idea of getting the band back together to show the world what the zhents would have been able to do if they hadn't had their hey day in 2e, and horribly curb stomped in 4e.
Now seeing as the moonsea was the area for organized play, what has been done in the dungeon masters guild or during organized play that would be interesting?
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check out my post-post apocalyptic world at www.drevrpg.com |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 14:28:11
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I would most likely go with the explanation that Manshoon discovered some object with the spark within POST spellplague, for simplicity sake if for no other reason. This would limit it to this single Manshoon. It would also mean that the other Manshoons would not be weakened.
It would actually be interesting in my mind for this Manshoon to be one of the weaker/younger clones who seized the spark to be more powerful - Vampshoon wakes up - is a thrall to Orbakh and seeks a method to win free of him. In one of Westgate's catacombs he discovers some ancient Netherese object with a small spark of Mystryl power within and uses it to strike down and take over for his vampish creator, becoming more powerful in the process.
As far as the creation of a 9th level spell at low levels, my suggestion has always been that Manshoon did not really create the spell - the spell was contained in the that first spellbook he found. This would explain how he survived his initial rise to power.
Also, remember that it is canon, and entirely within several old subsets of rules for a spellcaster to be able to cast spells that are beyond their ability... just very difficult and dangerous. Difficult and dangerous sounds exactly like something someone who hangs out with the most powerful beholders around would be into. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 17:03:28
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| The problem with "centuries" is that it covers his whole life... born in the 1200s he's only just over 200 in current realms. |
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Gareth
Seeker
United Kingdom
55 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 18:59:24
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My suspicion is that the real treasure that the Harpers were in the barrow where Manshoon, Asmuth and Chess encountered them while looking for a sword of power, could well have been this spindle of Mystryl. Especially as it was soon after this that he "officially" decided to study magic, having seen it at play in the barrow.
This is just suspicion though, and a belief that the "official" history in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep was what is widely believed rather than the actual true events. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 20:04:32
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What if the word "centuries" is indeed accurate, and is in fact a clue to a hidden secret?
Maybe Manshoon's history is only partially correct... Maybe the real Manshoon is much, much older, and what we know about Manshoon's past is only true for his current identity. (Like Khelben Arunsun, who has lived under a lot of identities)
Or maybe what we know is entirely accurate, but at some point, Manshoon was replaced by an older mage who took over his identity. (Much like the Blackstaff did with his grandson the Ravencloak)
Keep in mind, too, that Ed has indicated that the real Manshoon is off doing his own thing, but also keeping an eye on his "lesser selves" -- which could back up the idea of a much older Manshoon. |
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KanzenAU
Senior Scribe
Australia
763 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2016 : 21:53:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if the word "centuries" is indeed accurate, and is in fact a clue to a hidden secret?
Maybe Manshoon's history is only partially correct... Maybe the real Manshoon is much, much older, and what we know about Manshoon's past is only true for his current identity. (Like Khelben Arunsun, who has lived under a lot of identities)
Or maybe what we know is entirely accurate, but at some point, Manshoon was replaced by an older mage who took over his identity. (Much like the Blackstaff did with his grandson the Ravencloak)
Keep in mind, too, that Ed has indicated that the real Manshoon is off doing his own thing, but also keeping an eye on his "lesser selves" -- which could back up the idea of a much older Manshoon.
Definitely possible, especially if Manshoon is half the manipulator he's claimed to be. But just to keep another option open with interpreting "centuries", perhaps this does only refer to the centuries of his lifetime. If he was born in 1229 as the FR wiki claims, he's still been active over 3 centuries. Admittedly this is a weak interpretation of the language "been active for centuries", but I wouldn't rule it out.
That last point about the "real" Manshoon being off doing his own thing - I wasn't aware of this! Such tantalizing information, where did you get that from? |
Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 01:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What if the word "centuries" is indeed accurate, and is in fact a clue to a hidden secret?
Maybe Manshoon's history is only partially correct... Maybe the real Manshoon is much, much older, and what we know about Manshoon's past is only true for his current identity. (Like Khelben Arunsun, who has lived under a lot of identities)
Or maybe what we know is entirely accurate, but at some point, Manshoon was replaced by an older mage who took over his identity. (Much like the Blackstaff did with his grandson the Ravencloak)
Keep in mind, too, that Ed has indicated that the real Manshoon is off doing his own thing, but also keeping an eye on his "lesser selves" -- which could back up the idea of a much older Manshoon.
I've always wondered what to make of that. We keep hearing that Manshoon is this ultra threat to the Realms, but we keep seeing Manshoon get foiled too easily. If there is a master Manshoon, I don't know what he's being saved for. We've seen plenty enough bumbling incompetence from him. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 02:31:59
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It was a response from Ed to a question he'd been asked:
quote:
I prefer to think the REAL Manshoon is in hiding somewhere, watching his “lesser selves” operating, and awaiting his chance to strike at Fzoul at the same time as one of his clones does.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2016 : 04:24:02
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I interpreted that as there is one real Manshoon, as opposed to one of the clones that woke unexpectedly, i.e. the Manshoon referred to as Manshoon Prime.
THAT is also the line that made me think he is in the extra-dimensional space somewhere. Though I guess that was just me adding in where I figured the best places to watch and wait without having to worry about stumbling into a lesser Manshoon.
I also am virtually certain that the Manshoon Ed was talking about was NOT the one seen in his recent novels... which brings us right back around to the question - does the REAL Manshoon ALSO have some spark? |
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Fzoul
