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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 13:35:07
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So in the creation of a golem a simple (it has no memories, personality or history) earth elemental spirit is bound to animate the physical body. Golems physical bodies tend to be larger then their prime material masters' ones, usually because of their guardian function.
The realms does have some examples of truly colossal golem guardians, like for example the Walking Statue of Gull Leap at the end of Julthoon Street is mentioned to be over 90 ft tall.
So what would it take to create such a colossal magical contraption? Surely a simple spirit would NOT have enough "energy" to move the massive parts of its golem body? Would it be unreasonable to assume some sort of mythal or mythallar like "core" is responsible for all the heavy lifting of the massive parts of golem-satue, while the spirit still controls the actions and directions of its body?
That said, how large do you think the upper limit of golem creation can get on Toril? Any suggestion for which races might have experimented with this and what solutions they found for animating the increased weights and strains on the phyical body of the golem?
Edit: cleaned up sentences
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 15 Sep 2016 13:41:26
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 16:53:37
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For clarification, it is an elemental spirit from the plane of Earth. And most mages and priests don’t know which specific type of spirit goes into which body. An earth mephit could possibly power a stone golem.
As for your suggestion about a mythal “core” I can see that occurring. For those who lack that type of “core” I suggest the following alternatives:
Multiple spirits bond to the colossal body (think Voltron), or a very large powerful spirit (the crafter specifically targets larger than normal earth spirit), or a small piece of energy from a Primordial (for those crafters foolish enough to do so).
Now how large the upper limit can get on Toril would depend on two things. The first being the ambition level of the crafter. The second being the success rate of the adventurers hired to stop said crafter. I am sure sometime in the past there was somebody foolish enough to try and craft a golem large enough to reach Selűne.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 16:57:43
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I'd rule that since it's up to how powerful (and in their case directly HD corresponds to the size) the elemental is, it's limited to how big are the ones the creator can summon and control, and having a properly prepared (crafted and given preliminary enchantments) shell comparable to that elemental's natural size.
E.g. if we go with AD&D2.
They are about 1' tall per HD. Priests have Conjure Earth Elemental (level 7) - up to 24 HD, wizards either have to bargain via some elemental boss, or if allowed to develop equivalent of Dark Sun spells, Conjure Greater Elemental (level 7) up to 18 HD.
That's a baseline, but there always can be ways to push the limit a little, both in summoning and shell crafting.
There's 8 level spell Unleash Monolith that can summon a 30HD elemental - it's ridiculously huge, but not really controlled beyond "smash things in this direction", so not fit for this purpose.
Of course, how quickly the shell and other preparations grow more expensive is another question.
With special constructs it may be more tricky, however, especially if they are not active all the time.
After all, there are constructs like Helmed Horror that can be animated by a human spirit, and then there's conjured Battle Horror (Iron Maiden spell). Other settings got things like piloted Spirit Warriors (Spelljammer), remotely controlled Juggernauts (Jakandor), etc.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 17:21:28
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The way I see it, it's not the bound elemental that powers the golem... The magic used in the golem's creation does that. The bound elemental provides an intelligence that is used to control what the golem does.
The binding magics allow it to control the animation, but the animation itself is provided by magic.
It's the same way a person can operate a moped or a battle tank, despite the differences in scale and ability of the vehicle. The vehicle has its own power source, it just needs a driver to control it. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 18:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The way I see it, it's not the bound elemental that powers the golem... The magic used in the golem's creation does that. The bound elemental provides an intelligence that is used to control what the golem does.
The binding magics allow it to control the animation, but the animation itself is provided by magic.
It's the same way a person can operate a moped or a battle tank, despite the differences in scale and ability of the vehicle. The vehicle has its own power source, it just needs a driver to control it.
This makes perfect sense too |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 19:41:57
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"Its not the size of the Golem, but how you use it" - Nettledak Barkflakker, Wizard-Priest of Mulhorand
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The way I see it, it's not the bound elemental that powers the golem... The magic used in the golem's creation does that. The bound elemental provides an intelligence that is used to control what the golem does.
The binding magics allow it to control the animation, but the animation itself is provided by magic.
It's the same way a person can operate a moped or a battle tank, despite the differences in scale and ability of the vehicle. The vehicle has its own power source, it just needs a driver to control it.
This makes perfect sense too
I would have a caveat about the elemental spirit summoned for the 'intelligence'. You could use any power-level you wanted (that you could summon), but the more powerful, the more intelligent, and thus, the greater the risk the thing would 'break free' from your control. On the other hand, a 'stupid'' golem wouldn't be a very efficient worker, or fighter, and could 'run amok'. So compromises always had to be made, and creators would have to weigh their priorities carefully.
And a VERY power elemental lord might find it fun to break free from a stupid wizard's control, and then have a 'permanent' form to run around Toril (or any world) and cause mischief. By giving it an 'anchor', you've basically created the elemental version of a fiend - it won't leave until someone unsummons it, or destroys is physical form. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Sep 2016 19:42:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2016 : 21:15:32
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Regular elementals have a habit of trying to break free, but golems seem to stick around for half of forever. I came up with two theories for this, during a prior discussion on whether or not it was enslavement to bind an elemental to a golem.
1) The elementals summoned are lesser elementals, something akin to wild animals of the elemental planes. So they're more like guard dogs than enslaved guardians
2) We know barghests are sometimes sent to the Prime to mature and get enough power to eventually go back to their home plane. Maybe the elementals that go into golems are intelligent, but they are of a lower rank. Their time on the Prime could be punishment from their higher-ups, or it could be a way of gaining power/prestige, and thus rank, when they return home. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11712 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 00:48:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
"Its not the size of the Golem, but how you use it" - Nettledak Barkflakker, Wizard-Priest of Mulhorand
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The way I see it, it's not the bound elemental that powers the golem... The magic used in the golem's creation does that. The bound elemental provides an intelligence that is used to control what the golem does.
The binding magics allow it to control the animation, but the animation itself is provided by magic.
It's the same way a person can operate a moped or a battle tank, despite the differences in scale and ability of the vehicle. The vehicle has its own power source, it just needs a driver to control it.
This makes perfect sense too
I would have a caveat about the elemental spirit summoned for the 'intelligence'. You could use any power-level you wanted (that you could summon), but the more powerful, the more intelligent, and thus, the greater the risk the thing would 'break free' from your control. On the other hand, a 'stupid'' golem wouldn't be a very efficient worker, or fighter, and could 'run amok'. So compromises always had to be made, and creators would have to weigh their priorities carefully.
And a VERY power elemental lord might find it fun to break free from a stupid wizard's control, and then have a 'permanent' form to run around Toril (or any world) and cause mischief. By giving it an 'anchor', you've basically created the elemental version of a fiend - it won't leave until someone unsummons it, or destroys is physical form.
Markus, gotta say, sometimes I really like how your mind works. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2016 : 01:50:13
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Golems in Ravenloft (especially flesh golems) are less passive and more malign than those in the Realms. They do indeed suffer until they eventually go insane, break free, and run dangerously amok. Possibly because the spirit inhabiting them is disconnected from its plane(s) of origin, possibly because it is instead fabricated from the stuff of the Demiplane of Dread, possibly because the Powers of that demiplane constantly twist it with their subtle but relentless influences.quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik (in this scroll)
A profound Realms-canon comment, by the halfling vermin Olive Ruskettle, claimed that souls are infinite wholes so each part of a divided soul must also comprise an infinite (and infinitely dividable) whole. This allows the saurial Dragonbait and the construct Alias to "share" a soul, be drawn together through a fundamental and supernatural bond, and yet each function as an entirely separate individual.
Yet another profound Realms-canon comment, by the glorious penultimate archfiend Mephistopheles, is that a soul torn asunder can be divided in an unbalanced manner wherein each soul-part contains different finite components of the original individual. This allows the unhappy cambion Magadon to be divided into two unhappy cambion half-Magadons, one (set free upon the world) representing the moral goodly human parts of the whole, the other (stuck in Mephy's private collection) inclined towards all the dark and nasty devil bits, both suffering from the savage amputation of the other part and neither able to really function as a complete individual.
It's possible that the two half-Magadons might eventually, if allowed, be able to each heal/grow into more balanced and complete individuals over time, as it is suggested Dragonbait and Alias did (separately and together) before they met their first shared adventure.
I wonder if two-headed sapients such as ettins possess two souls or (through some lost ancient arcane/divine meddlings and mutations) instead possess a kind of mystical shared-soul relationship. Perhaps an adventure/story could revolve around some dual-entity deity (like the Ouroborus World Serpent?) which explores the special causes and relationships of such metaphysical dualities. Or perhaps the issue is much less complicated, and outer planar entities can simply cut easily-chewed chunks of soul apart at their dinner tables.
A magical sword can possess intelligence - and willpower, ambition, drive, motivation, charisma - rivalling or exceeding that of the beefy epic hero who wields it. Magical artifacts the size of coins and beads or tiny flasks of water have been known to entirely dominate supra-genius liches and powerful ancient dragons. What of characters enlarged to titanic proportions or reduced to miniscule scales? I believe that size doesn't really matter when speaking of souls, regardless whether they inhabit the bodies of halflings or dragons or polymorphed toads. Why suppose that all the spirits, anima, and other conscious/living forces in D&D have different rules when they become physically manifest?
All that being said ... creatures of unique stature (like colossal golems) do attract a great deal of attention. Whatever spirit or force animates such a construct may have sentience or stupidity or insanity inflicted upon it by constant exposure to mental orders from any number of spellcasters (working independently, competitively, or in groups) who attempt to claim control over it. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Sep 2016 19:10:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2016 : 08:05:28
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Thats an interesting bit, there Ayrik - thanks for posting it. It also pertains to stuff said over in the 'Thunder Blessing' thread (about souls getting 'split' when dwarves are cloned). I knew I read somewhere that souls slowly 'heal' over time (grow back into a 'full' soul). I forgot about that part in the Saurials novels. Also nice to know they are infinitely 'splittable', which helps to explain a lot (it would just take a Hel of a lot longer to 'heal' a soul that was only 1% of one).
Another cool thing to do with Golems - especially those colossal ones - would be to have them have a very unintelligent spirit residing within them, and then have some powerful being (in need of a body) come along and decide to kick the other spirit out, and take over. Wouldn't that be a nasty surprise to its creator? And also great fodder for an adventure/story!
What was the name of that Shoon Lich? Imagine him inhabiting a 100' Golem body! What fun!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2016 08:07:21 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2016 : 10:22:06
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| Like Ssi-ruuk enteching from the STAR WARS novel Truce at Bakura. Interesting... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11712 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2016 : 03:11:44
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| You know, on the topic of souls and splitting them.... I've been intrigued with the concepts of spirits/weave spirits/telthors versus undead. I've often wondered on the side if someone can die and form both a telthor AND an undead being (perhaps someone who heroically uses his own body to take the hit from something like a wraith, to protect someone else, etc...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2016 : 07:59:42
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Whats a Telthor again? My brain isn't what it used to be. Something to do with elves, I vaguely recollect?
In a Xanth novel they had both a ghost and a zombie of the same person, which I thought was a really neat idea, and should be entirely possible in D&D.
Nevermind - found it. Close enough (to elf stuff) - its a 'spirit animal' nature-spirit thingy. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2016 08:05:02 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2016 : 15:42:07
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I'd say there is not a simple way of creating 1 ghost and one nature spirit from the same spirit. Aside from my own campaign I don't think I've ever seen a write up for splitting a soul into two distinct entities - which is what would be required for the two spirit in my mind - in D&D print.
Alternately, there is no reason whatsoever that the corpse of someone who's spirit has been disembodied could not be reanimated as some form of spirit-less undead (skeleton/zombie etc).
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2016 : 20:03:57
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Not exactly D&D, but rather, Real-World paranormal stuff - not saying its real or nor, just 'interesting' in regards to this discussion.
On an episode of the Dead Files, Amy came across two versions of a dead man, which confused her. One was a very evil, almost demonic-like entity (it was actually projecting the demonic visage, she later realized, on purpose). The other was fairly normal - if gruff - ex-biker type of guy. She went through most of the investigation thinking she was interacting with two different people (which she WAS, to her way of thinking). The man was probably bipolar or had some other mental illness wrong with him in life, and when he died most of his anger and craziness went into creating the 'Shadow demon' persona, while the rest of him (the fairly normal guy) just became very sad and confused about his circumstances.
I study a LOT of paranormal stuff (it actually helps with D&D LOL), but I've never heard of anything like that before. The craziest part was in the end, she decided to TAKE BOTH HALVES WITH HER when she left - even her partner thought she was nuts. She explained that he couldn't move on until he was 'put back together', and that was what she was going to do.
I've seen some nutty stuff watching those kinds of programs, but that was something very creepy on a whole 'nother level. A 'broken soul'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2016 22:55:39 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2016 : 20:14:10
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| Does a mythal have a soul/spirit? It is a living magical force, it has consciousness and identity, it thinks and learns and grows, it can be wounded or healed, it can turn evil or senile or insane. But where would this soul come from? Is it provided by Mystra or Corellon, is it composite whole formed from the spiritual components offered by the high mages casting it, is it somehow drawn from the Weave and the landscape of the Realms? Is it a local place-spirit or nature-spirit, an itinerant ghost or ancestral spirit, a spirit of some forgotten elven druid/highmage drawn back to the Realms from Arvenaith (or wherever) and embodied within a living magical vessel? Could a mythal's soul be split or duplicated? |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2016 : 22:28:37
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I would say that a soul/spirit is not a typical part of a mythal. However that does not mean one cannot be bound into a mythal. Somewhere on this site is a mythal I wrote up, which had the spirit of a dragon tied to it.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2016 : 23:00:04
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My thoughts on it are that the old-school (Elven High Magic Ritual) Mythals used souls, but that the newer, Arcane Mythals do not.
Netherese Mythalars are very similar in that they are also somewhat sentient. They also act as 'uber-power batteries', very similar to how trapped primordials are used (and being discussed in at least one other thread).*
I'm inclined to believe it was Netheril's work with Mythals that inspired the Elves to create the new Arcane Mythals, perhaps basing some of their processes on that of the Netherese (and the stuff in the Nether Scrolls).
*EDIT: And now I am considering the idea that Mythalars also contain some sort of 'trapped entity' for power. Thats a fun thought. It seems they developed this tech right before the first flying city was spotted by the Imaskari. I have to wonder if any Netherese (Iouluam?) studied in Imaskar, and learned how they trapped beings of immense power in that fashion (like Pandorym).
Its also my conjecture that this 'magitech' was brought with the original Muhjari settlers from Zakhara (the trapping of elementals/Dgen in 'lamps' and what-not).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2016 23:04:45 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11712 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2016 : 13:46:52
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| yeah, it would seem that the old school elven mythals did use souls to power them. They're probably more stable long term as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2016 : 20:13:25
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Yay, excellent discussion!
After looking into the Walking Statues I can confirm that no regular earth spirit controlled them, as they are described as being able to speak, grow and learn, just as sentient mortals. They seldom actually speak and are very patient beings though, capable of standing still for decades.
Certain elven sentinal guards are mentioned as animated, as are some 'puzzle statue' traps of dwarven make. These tend to be medium sized though, to better fit into the architecture of the elves and dwarves. Gargoyles are another example of sentient earth 'spirits' capable of emotion and learning. Perhaps advanced versions of them are sought after by archmages for use in golem binding with their 'brighter' earth spirits.
As for mythal souls, I like the theory that older mythals are driven by elven weaveghosted souls, with a large store of its power bound to the mythals' core that is in turn replenished by the weave.
Did the Imsaskari learn golem craft from the archfey aswell? I consider the Raumathori to be the most recent pinacle in golemcraft, they were responcable for the invention of Helmed and Battle Horrors, nay? |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2016 : 22:31:34
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Well, if any of my theories pan-out, then Fey themselves are 'spirits' that anchor themselves to the material world.
THUS, if anyone would know how to 'anchor' (chain, entrap, etc) a being of power (spirit) into something physical, it would be them. Nice catch.
I also vaguely recollect something about souls and a Mythal - was it the one involved in the Return of the Archwwizards? The one around Evereska?
Back in the day, 'Elven High Magic' usually had a cost - a terrible cost. A lot of times, most of the elves involved in the ritual were consumed by it. I recall something about their 'souls' becoming part of the magic/ritual itself. There were also the souls that became the sharn, who later became Rhymanthiin, the City of Hope.
Then after stealing the Nether scrolls, suddenly the Eleven high Magic becomes 'epic level' magic, which requires 'seeds', rather than souls. I would suspect the Elves stopped doing their magic the old way when they found this 'less costly' method. It explains the difference in the mythals, amongst other things.
Problem is, 'souless' powerful magic tends to become corrupted, and gets away from its creators. The lesson here is: "Always pay full price, because a bargain is never truly a bargain."  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2016 : 01:21:54
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Didn't the "old-school" mythals require the willing sacrifice of a living highmage to create?
The rules explain that each of the casters involved in creating a mythal contributes a distinct magical power. The novels hint that each mythal has a unique personality of sorts; if this is true then I suspect the formative influences on a mythal would be a gestalt of it's creators' personalities. Note that the creation of the most powerful mythals would involve large crowds of elves (to provide a sort of spiritual energy pool) - I wonder how things would turn out if anyone in this crowd suffered from extreme arrogance, mania, schizophrenia, or other insanity? I suppose all mythals are initially "programmed" but not all are capable of self-reprogramming (and learning) with enough intelligence and sophistication to remain "alive" and "conscious" indefinitely.
Binding a dragon spirit within a mythal is interesting notion. But I ask what should happen to a mythal if a dragon were to somehow modify/reprogram it? Even the elf-lovers must admit that a dragon can be far more powerful and intelligent and intrinsically magical than any elf, so a dragon should be able to make or remake anything magical that elves can make. A dragon-mythal to guard the lair and the hoard would be a fearsomely sensible thing for a dragon to want, I would think, unless it could become a threat or a rival to its makers. It might even vastly outlast/outlive mere elven or Netherese mythals, perhaps through several generations or dynasties of dragon lineage. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11712 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2016 : 01:51:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Yay, excellent discussion!
After looking into the Walking Statues I can confirm that no regular earth spirit controlled them, as they are described as being able to speak, grow and learn, just as sentient mortals. They seldom actually speak and are very patient beings though, capable of standing still for decades.
Certain elven sentinal guards are mentioned as animated, as are some 'puzzle statue' traps of dwarven make. These tend to be medium sized though, to better fit into the architecture of the elves and dwarves. Gargoyles are another example of sentient earth 'spirits' capable of emotion and learning. Perhaps advanced versions of them are sought after by archmages for use in golem binding with their 'brighter' earth spirits.
As for mythal souls, I like the theory that older mythals are driven by elven weaveghosted souls, with a large store of its power bound to the mythals' core that is in turn replenished by the weave.
Did the Imsaskari learn golem craft from the archfey aswell? I consider the Raumathori to be the most recent pinacle in golemcraft, they were responcable for the invention of Helmed and Battle Horrors, nay?
Don't forget the Stone Colossus (or the Statues-that-Walk) in Mulhorand. They were created by giants long ago back whenever they ruled the region and are controlled via rituals and runes. So, giantkind had some ability when it came to constructs as well.
As to who created the Helmed and Battle Horrors, I don't believe that's ever been revealed. While I wouldn't be surprised if it were the Raumathari, I also wouldn't be surprised if it weren't. For the most part, an animated suit of armor with some kind of nice weapon and some ability to resist spells would fit many a culture. I wouldn't be surprised though if Raumathari didn't create the Runic Guardian though, as it fits them culturally (though it could also fit dwarven culture, but then I'd expect them to look like dwarves). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2016 : 08:22:26
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So, perhaps in the case of Mythals (and other, 'sentient' artifacts), enough 'soul stuff' (we need a word for this - too bad 'Incarnum' is taken) is donated by multiple parties to create a psuedo-soul.
In the case of the Dragonwall - the largest known 'artifact' on Toril - it is powered by the soul of a celestial dragon (so basically, a demigod).
So maybe thats all souls are - a 'power source'. One of unlimited potential, so long as you don't overuse it. It would explain why outsiders love them so much. Imagine an energy source that not only (slowly) regenerates itself, but that you can even catch the 'overflow' from it (which is what gods are doing when they receive prayers from their faithful). Thus, a mythal should also be able to 'heal'. In the case of a Mythalar, no souls were sacrificed (AFAIK), so instead, perhaps they bound something into it, like the way a Golem is made? Something MUCH more powerful though, like an archon (was that the word 4e used to describe that new 'demigod' tier?)
In the RotAW books, the Mythal around Evereska was repaired by weaving shadow-magic into it, which it didn't have originally. This would actually work perfectly within the framework I laid out above - old-school mythals used souls, and thus, were powered by 'positive energy'. By weaving shadow (negative) energy into it, they turned a High Magic Mythal into an Arcane Mythal (and for whatever reason, that was able to keep the Phaerimm at bay).
So if Golems need this 'power source', and Mythals need this 'power source', maybe thats all magic is - transferring a little bit of your 'soul energy' into something else, and trading it for a desired effect. Thus, even inanimate, non-sentient magical items have a little bit of this, and it could be why some eventually achieve a sentience of their own (like Legacy/heirloom weapons). All this could even tie into those Moonblades (when an elf is found 'unworthy', and its life 'forfeit', the soul is absorbed into the sword, making it more powerful).
Or when someone like Szass Tam, or the Dark Three, cast a ritual that kills whole swaths of people, its like a type of (Darksun) defiling magic - they are just absorbing all the nearby 'soulstuff' energy and harnessing it as magic for their ritual. Maybe there is no conversion process at all - maybe 'soulstuff' is raw magical energy, in its purest form.
And thats why golems can keep on chugging along practically forever - their power source is self-replenishing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Sep 2016 08:26:59 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2016 : 23:28:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
For clarification, it is an elemental spirit from the plane of Earth. And most mages and priests don’t know which specific type of spirit goes into which body. An earth mephit could possibly power a stone golem.
Two problems with this:
1) I remember something about mephits being created and discarded as sort of homunculi without binding, but also without its vulnerability. I.e. already constructs.
2) More importantly, they are mephits. Who would even try to keep one around?  "Mephits are never given to friends, as anyone who has met one understands."©
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Didn't the "old-school" mythals require the willing sacrifice of a living highmage to create?
Not necessarily, but mythals require certain total amount of lifeforce (and there are some limitations on how the sacrifice is distributed). If the primary caster contributes too much (mechanically, above current hp or HD) - then it's "was nice to know ye".
Mythanthor's variant of wizardry mythal was explicitly said to kill the central caster. Whether this can be circumvented without divine intervention or not, who knows, but it was good enough for him. Which is sort of understandable, given that his choice was between merging with his greatest triumph and forcing things to go his way right now, or spending more efforts and time (when delays quite visibly risk everything) so that he could... return to the life of an old ex-High-Mage, but now drained and without greater challenges ahead.
• The spell also requires, as physical components to power the spell,
the presence and lifeforces of at least nine living beings, all casting its
three-part spell; this includes the mandatory death of the central caster.
The energy drain is enormous, and a greater number of people involved allow
the energy drain to be spread across as many casters and supporters as
are involved, possibly sparing the lives of all the casters save the
central caster. This spell drains 400 to 800 hit points from its casters,
depending on the size of the mythal.
Then there were intentionally placed guardians, but that's different:
In times past, elves also could be transformed into weave spirits,
beings of pure magic who help maintain mythals and spell fields and guard
against abuses in magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The novels hint that each mythal has a unique personality of sorts; if this is true then I suspect the formative influences on a mythal would be a gestalt of it's creators' personalities. Note that the creation of the most powerful mythals would involve large crowds of elves (to provide a sort of spiritual energy pool) - I wonder how things would turn out if anyone in this crowd suffered from extreme arrogance, mania, schizophrenia, or other insanity? I suppose all mythals are initially "programmed" but not all are capable of self-reprogramming (and learning) with enough intelligence and sophistication to remain "alive" and "conscious" indefinitely.
The source of lifeforce could affect the result, indeed, but it's not like one can talk to a mythal. And the large gatherings could help exactly by making the individual quirks less significant. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11712 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2016 : 01:56:58
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| Quick question.... why can't one talk to a mythal? I have no problem with a sentient mythal. Hell, the netherese had a sentient mythallar (granted, they said it was psionic). I even bet that the Jhaamdath version of a mythal (udoxias??? spelling?) was very much interactive. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2016 : 13:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Quick question.... why can't one talk to a mythal? I have no problem with a sentient mythal.
Because even at the height of their hubris the elves rarely were quite that reckless?
There is no true escape
I'm watching all the time
etc.
The only known instances of sentience-in-mythal (beside the Waymeet thing, with all its "but"s) are Mythanthor and "weave spirits" - i.e. former elves, so deep in it they are not easy to reach and concerned mostly with the magic as such anyway. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Topic |
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Golem size limits
