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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jul 2016 : 22:47:37
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It is very true that the free stuff is downloaded with abandon and to a slightly lesser degree the pay what you want stuff also.
My experience is that about 10% of downloaders on PWYW actually pay anything, and some chip in a penny to assuage their consciences.
Set amount articles have a far lesser download rate but depending on the content can be more remunerative. I have a mixture of free, PWYW and set amount articles.
My most downloaded article is the High History of Impiltur with 537 downloads.
My most remunerative article is Talona's Touch with 75 downloads.
My most downloaded and remunerative PWYW article is Soargar's Legacy at 464 downloads. For that amount of downloads I have received $24.67.
What is also interesting is that of the 464 individuals who were happy to download Soargar's Legacy on a PWYW basis, only another 40 then went on to pay $1.00 for Imbrar's Inheritance (which IMO is a way better installment of the Swords of Impiltur series).
Let the good times roll!
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 14 Jul 2016 02:04:32 |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 03:43:38
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I don't honestly believe it's possible to make the kind of money you need for art from DMG sales to get a return on the investment equal to - or even close to - the rate of professional interior book illustrations. The DMG community isn't large enough (only online, doesn't reach even national book stores), nor willing to pay enough, nor are they likely to purchasing anything not related to the current game or project they're focused on, etc. to cover a creator's expenses no matter how good the product is. If you combine it with a kickstarter project, perhaps - but the DMG rules regarding that really strangle a good number of attempts (backers must purchase the final product through the DMG). As time goes on, I think it's going to get harder to find someone to illustrate specific and unique pictures - it will all be stock art in some form. I hope to change that but I'm also only one woman.
The purpose of the DMG is not to make you rich or to even promote self-sustaining works that return the investment of time for their creators. It is a win-win compromise for those running it: The community gets to pitch ideas, does the marketing, make the realms their own, and WotC/OBS even gets money on the side with minimal risk. For the rest of us....it's not so much a win: not being justly paid for the time, forfeiting ownership of the ideas, minimal return (if any) on investment (such as price for artwork), limited community distribution (can't be uploaded elsewhere), limit in what creative mediums are acceptable, etc. You really do have to be driven by passion to a large extent. It is what it is. There's no way to really look at these from our angle as anything but passion projects (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Now, on a more personal note, I do still have a list of the illustrations from you regarding Netheril's First Age. Out of those, I plan to get the map done first because I know you need it the most. Since you aren't paying for it, every paying job from full on professional to some kind of barter to "I'll give you $20 if you draw me and then tear the page out of the sketchbook for me to keep" at Starbucks takes priority over volunteer work. It has to. I already work full time as a professional artist, so for me the visual fleshing out of the Realms is all one big, interlinked passion project; Its what rekindles that love for drawing after a day of illustrating boring business and advertising artwork. This is my way of giving back to the FR community and there is alot of community to give back to beyond any one project - you're far from the only master of lore I have artwork queued up for. Eventually, I'll try to get every corner of the Realms and will treat each with care towards its lore and apply my skill as a film concept artist so nothing is "generic fantasy", but I do have to prioritize and organize how I go about that. You have a very niche setting, an interesting one (I do love the Arcane Age), but still a niche setting that doesn't tie into any other projects and requires a good amount of visual research and development to get the historical feel right due to how far removed it is from the present. Not much can be done about that. I'm aware of the difficulties of acquiring professional illustrations for the DMG and am currently playing with ideas of how to get a general fund going for projects that can't pay (a patreon page to building FR art? releasing 'volunteered art' in stock art packs so other content creators can also make use of?), but I don't have anything concrete. Hopefully the situation will be turned around one day and you'll have plenty to Creative-Commons licensed work from for both the DMG, the Wiki, and everything else realms-related. |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Portfolio |
Edited by - Adhriva on 14 Jul 2016 12:14:17 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 12:28:37
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| I find DmG frustrating in my inability to find things. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 13:35:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I find DmG frustrating in my inability to find things.
My biggest complaint is that when perusing the list of new stuff, you can't see who wrote it. I'm much more likely to check out something if the author is George Krashos or Brian Cortijo, as opposed to Joe Randomdude or Bill Someguy -- but the DM's Guild doesn't let you see who the author was without clicking on the item entry. So Krash could write the niftiest thing ever, but if the name of the thing doesn't catch my attention, I'm not likely to even look at it. Conversely, Bill Someguy could write things that sound intriguing but prove to be utter crap -- if I see his name when looking thru the new stuff, then I would know to avoid it without even looking.
(And yes, I've downloaded at least one DM's Guild product that sounded intriguing, but failed to live up to its promise and was almost painful in how poorly written it was.) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 14:56:07
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| Most likely not. It was an article on some magical swords... and it didn't even look like it had been spell-checked or proofread. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 15:26:31
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| Now I have to go and checkout those articles George wrote. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 16:01:27
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One idea that came up during work on my graphic novel was the "Herald project" (based on the Realm organization), a hypothetical community of loosely interconnected, high quality projects that shared resources with eachother (e.g. art assets, internal proofing, shared marketing, etc). It works off the same idea as brand standards in the business world with a few tweaks on the model.
Provides art, layouts, lorechecking, and editing - in return all that would be asked is to proof other projects from members to meet the same standards. As a buyer, if a product had the graphic and is listed as having went through the subcommunity's pipeline/approval, you know you're getting a professional quality product even if you don't know the author beforehand.
The idea started as a way to incorporate multimedia marketing techniques (e.g. what if this Eilastraeean drow companion of Prince Miritar showed up in Irennen's work too? Can you include this Irithyl villain of mine that gives Ilsevele such a hard time when you hit -339 in Netheril sourcebooks to help me set the stage?). Its been bouncing around in my head since the 'no narratives' rule was passed down since I found myself loosely connected to alot of lore-heavy projects around the community, but I've been slow to pitch it to people. Not sure how many would be interested. |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Portfolio |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 16:44:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
I find DmG frustrating in my inability to find things.
My biggest complaint is that when perusing the list of new stuff, you can't see who wrote it. I'm much more likely to check out something if the author is George Krashos or Brian Cortijo, as opposed to Joe Randomdude or Bill Someguy -- but the DM's Guild doesn't let you see who the author was without clicking on the item entry. So Krash could write the niftiest thing ever, but if the name of the thing doesn't catch my attention, I'm not likely to even look at it. Conversely, Bill Someguy could write things that sound intriguing but prove to be utter crap -- if I see his name when looking thru the new stuff, then I would know to avoid it without even looking.
(And yes, I've downloaded at least one DM's Guild product that sounded intriguing, but failed to live up to its promise and was almost painful in how poorly written it was.)
You can actually search for articles by author name: if you type in "Krashos" all of my articles come up.
I'm working on something at the moment which should see the light of day after GENCON and will be free.
After that, hopefully by Xmas, a bigger piece which will have some historical import.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 17:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
You can actually search for articles by author name: if you type in "Krashos" all of my articles come up.
I'm working on something at the moment which should see the light of day after GENCON and will be free.
After that, hopefully by Xmas, a bigger piece which will have some historical import.
-- George Krashos
I get that... But I go to the site once a week, and I look at what has come out since the last time I looked. I don't look for anything in particular, just what is new and looks interesting.
On the screen showing new stuff, you can't see who wrote something... So if you wrote up (and failed to mention here) a detailed description of an Impiltur dynasty and called it "Heavy Lies the Crown," and Bill Someguy wrote up some crap called "Article of Niftiness," I'd be more likely to click on his article than yours. The new stuff page gives you very little info, so something's got to grab your attention to make you want to see the author and full description.
So that's my beef: I want to see the author info on that page, so I can eagerly click on something knowing it's good Krashlore, or just as eagerly avoid it because I know it's Someguy's crap. I know it's just an extra click to see if it's going to be of interest or not, but I'd still prefer to know that up front. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 19:59:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Most likely not. It was an article on some magical swords... and it didn't even look like it had been spell-checked or proofread.
This is my biggest issue (aside from the shameless plagiarism) with the DM's Guild. Most of the stuff I've seen looks slapped together without a care in the world. If the author can't even take the time to spellcheck their product, why should I pay money for it or even bother reading it? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
Edited by - Artemas Entreri on 14 Jul 2016 20:00:13 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 20:48:59
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I've mentioned something similar to this before but I always download first and go back and pay later (in the PWYW options obviously). I like rewarding well thought out hard work rather than playing a guessing game. The previews help a bit, but not enough.
I have to admit DmG fills the niche that Dungeon and Dragon magazine used to for me. Every month I find at least enough quality material to fill up two magazines. I also use what I make on my books to do so. I haven't collected not spent a dime yet (except for artwork and that has killed me). |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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Adhriva
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 23:19:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I haven't collected not spent a dime yet (except for artwork and that has killed me).
You are welcomed to shoot me an email with what you need. Most (E.g. everything outside of cartography) of the stock art I've seen on the DMG is either already public domain or was done under a CC license for something outside of the DMG, thus you probably shouldn't be paying for it. Go straight to an artist if you need art - if we can't do it for you, we likely can point you in the direction of some great open-license artwork you can use. |
Professional illustrator and comic book artist.
Portfolio |
Edited by - Adhriva on 14 Jul 2016 23:21:08 |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1151 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2016 : 23:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Adhriva
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr
I haven't collected not spent a dime yet (except for artwork and that has killed me).
You are welcomed to shoot me an email with what you need. Most (E.g. everything outside of cartography) of the stock art I've seen on the DMG is either already public domain or was done under a CC license for something outside of the DMG, thus you probably shouldn't be paying for it. Go straight to an artist if you need art - if we can't do it for you, we likely can point you in the direction of some great open-license artwork you can use.
That is a wonderful offer and one I will most certainly take you up on. Thank you! |
Follow the Maztica (Aztec/Maya) and Anchorome (Indigenous North America) Campaigns on DMsGuild!
The Maztica Campaign
The Anchorome Campaign |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2016 : 00:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So is there any hint as to what is coming for gen con. Not that it matters what its about, im buying it anyway.
I'm not making any promises because I've left it late to get my ordure together and while the idea is set, the details are proving elusive. Hopefully a response from Ed will clear up some of the last  bits and I can get to writing. If it gets done, I think it'll prove popular given the subject matter. And no, it has nothing to do with Impiltur.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2016 : 01:04:56
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Im just wondering what experience buyers and sellers have had on the DMs Guild and whether they have found pay what you want useful or not.
As a buyer i tend not to read the free titles unless its by someone i know.
Conversely using Pay What You Want has generated barely enough funds to pay for an image of a creature's little toe, let alone a map or an entire image.
Im just wondering if my experiences are the same as others and whether i should change to charging a nominal fee instead of nothing to help fund improvements.
Plus the DMs Guild seems to be geared towards selling titles
I've only got two things up, but I figure numbers for comparison help.
The first is a collection of Heraldic symbols I made in my free time a few years back. I put it up for free, and its had 251 downloads.
The second was my Red Book of Spell Strategy, which was about 120 pages long (I've been updating and adding to it for a future update slowly, so I'm around 120 pages). Its at 265 downloads, and has netted a total of $69.92 (me making a total of $34.96), with a total of 20 people paying for it.
When I look at Pay What you Want stuff, I think of it along the lines of a dragon mag article (and one that's not been reviewed by editors). For something that sounds like its going to be 2 to 5 pages long, I figure 20 cents as a whole dragon mag would have been about $5, unless its really sounding good (some things I default to 50 cents). If I really like it, I will go back and pay more, but that's only been about five times. If I know the author, I will pay a dollar or more. It may sound cheap, but there's been articles that I've downloaded that I literally looked at less than a minute before going "that's crap".
Of the stuff I've downloaded, I will say that a few things have been useful adds. Enough that I started adding their spells into my spell lists and noting where they came from:
Athanae's Divinations located at https://www.dmsguild.com/product/172631/Athanaes-
Divinations?term=athanae&filters=45469_0_0_0_0_0
Elemental Magic of Zakhara located at http://www.dmsguild.com/product/173753/Elemental-
Magic-of-Zakhara-AlQadim--Forgotten-Realms
Also, I don't have the links, but Hand of the Wychlaran is an interesting Realmsian adventure.
Also, the Bestiary of Faerun is very well done.
Also, I have barely perused it so far, but there's some Maztica stuff as well that's worth looking at.
I'm also inclined more to give more money for more complete things.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2016 : 03:44:25
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| For the pay what you want, unless I've high expectations for it, I pay whatever the listed average is. And the high expectations are reserved for known quantities, like Krashlore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2016 : 03:46:14
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I have wondered if we should try and setup some kind of recommended titles page. The dms guild categories are bad and the review system there isnt working so perhaps we could post links and rate them and describe them in brief give an idea about the title, whats good or not etc.
We have a couple threads for that -- one for listing stuff written by scribes here, and one for recommendations. The latter has not, of yet, had any posts. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2016 : 03:53:47
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As for what I download, I look for more lore stuff than anything else. I don't touch the class stuff, or adventures, or most of the "this thing from earlier editions has been translated to 5E" stuff. Not that there's anything wrong with those things -- they're just not what I'm looking for.
I like maps, trinkets, NPCs, taverns -- the kind of thing that if it is edition-specific, can be easily revamped. Or stuff that can aid in a DM's creative endeavors.
As I said back when WotC was hitting us with page-long stat-blocks: anyone can do the numbers, it's the concept that's the important part. I want names, personalities, flavor, concepts -- I'll worry about numbers only when they're relevant. And even then, usually you don't need a full stat block. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Jul 2016 03:54:24 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2016 : 12:46:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Wait. Krash has Realms stuff on the Guild? That's the first I've heard of this most welcome news.
Finding now, then purchase/download. 
Oh my, you HAVE been gone for awhile.  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2016 : 14:30:16
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I have wondered if we should try and setup some kind of recommended titles page. The dms guild categories are bad and the review system there isnt working so perhaps we could post links and rate them and describe them in brief give an idea about the title, whats good or not etc.
We have a couple threads for that -- one for listing stuff written by scribes here, and one for recommendations. The latter has not, of yet, had any posts.
Well maybe they failed because no one saw a need then, maybe because people that thought they were having problems with the dms guild felt they were in a minority and didnt want to say anything. Maybe they will see more posts now. Then again maybe people just cant be bothered or havent the time.
It didn't help that the links were buried... I just stickied them, to keep them at the top of the DM's Guild section. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Pay What You Want or $0.99
