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Clegane
Seeker
65 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 04:02:51
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Do Paladins in general imbibe spirits? Is it within their ethos to look forward to a drink at the tavern?
I would imagine drinking to the point of intoxication, especially with any regularity would be chaotic behavior.
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Edited by - Clegane on 18 Apr 2016 05:43:56
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 11:07:05
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| I would imagine that most orders have no particular prohibition against drinking alcohol, at least so long as the paladin doesn't get intoxicated. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 14:17:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Clegane
Do Paladins in general imbibe spirits?
Yes, but only holy spirits.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 15:29:22
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The section on cavaliers (pages 2-3) in the old Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover offers this:
quote:
The knightly virtues in the Realms are:
Honor
Bravery
Glory
Good faith
Unselfishness
Courtesy
Pride in self and others
The knightly code, as recognized in the Realms, is as follows, rated from most generally important to those of lesser (but still critical) import.
Defend any responsibility given, even unto death;
A knight's word is his law;
Show courage in all things;
Show honor to those above one's station;
Earn respect from those below one's station;
Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit;
Battle is the test of worth (this is rated higher by those knights who strongly venerate Tempus);
Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavalier);
Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted into the knight's protection;
Choose death before dishonor.
Note that there is no mention of abstinence in there -- no requirements for chastity or for avoiding any particular substance.
Also, keep in mind it's not like they could pop around the corner to a Coke machine or down to 7-11 for a Slurpee. In the Realms, as with most medievalish fantasy settings, you drink something alcoholic, or you drink water -- and the latter is not always safe to drink. With those being the only choices, and particularly in polite company, drinking alcohol would frequently be the only choice.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 18 Apr 2016 15:30:10 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 16:57:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the Realms, as with most medievalish fantasy settings, you drink something alcoholic, or you drink water...
Hey, have the Realms fruits, from where one can extract juice? What about milk, are there domestic mammals? Both milk and juice are perfectly suitable drinks fort paladins, IMO!  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 18:42:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the Realms, as with most medievalish fantasy settings, you drink something alcoholic, or you drink water...
Hey, have the Realms fruits, from where one can extract juice? What about milk, are there domestic mammals? Both milk and juice are perfectly suitable drinks fort paladins, IMO!
It's my understanding that drinking milk and fruit juices were not really a widespread thing... It would certainly happen in more rural areas, but not so much in cities. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 20:20:09
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| As Wooly said, water often wasn't potable in our medieval times, so alcoholic drinks were often the only real choice. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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Clegane
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2016 : 21:05:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The section on cavaliers (pages 2-3) in the old Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover offers this:
quote:
The knightly virtues in the Realms are:
Honor
Bravery
Glory
Good faith
Unselfishness
Courtesy
Pride in self and others
The knightly code, as recognized in the Realms, is as follows, rated from most generally important to those of lesser (but still critical) import.
Defend any responsibility given, even unto death;
A knight's word is his law;
Show courage in all things;
Show honor to those above one's station;
Earn respect from those below one's station;
Leadership is the responsibility of the high-born and the fit;
Battle is the test of worth (this is rated higher by those knights who strongly venerate Tempus);
Be courteous to all women (or all men, depending on the sex of the former cavalier);
Bring death to those who raise their weapons against a knight or those entrusted into the knight's protection;
Choose death before dishonor.
Note that there is no mention of abstinence in there -- no requirements for chastity or for avoiding any particular substance.
Also, keep in mind it's not like they could pop around the corner to a Coke machine or down to 7-11 for a Slurpee. In the Realms, as with most medievalish fantasy settings, you drink something alcoholic, or you drink water -- and the latter is not always safe to drink. With those being the only choices, and particularly in polite company, drinking alcohol would frequently be the only choice.
Thank you! |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 01:11:05
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| Teas and mintwater are also often drunk, and kaeth (coffee), though mainly in the South, and thrusk on the trail. But yes, alcoholic drinks are pretty ubiquitous in the Realms and although the paladin is a Christian-derived archetype, total abstinence from alcohol is largely a modern Protestant thing. On the other hand, booze isn't good for vigilance; whether a paladin would look forward to a drink at the tavern would depend on how strictly ascetic he or she is. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 06:43:30
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| Most low-level clerics (and paladins) should have the Purify Food & Drink spell. So if Pally wanted drinkable water, he could have it. But after days of slaying evil demons…. he'd probably rather have a Sam Adams pale ale instead of boring old H2O. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 06:46:24
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| There's nothing inherently evil or chaotic about consuming alcohol or even getting inebriated. It's probably looked down upon, bUT I wouldn't make a Paladin fall if they got drunk. Now got drunk and did something bad like fighting without due cause or performing an overly evil act? Yep. But got drunk after surviving a harrowing journey or adventure? Nah |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 06:47:39
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quote:
Originally posted by moonbeast
quote:
Originally posted by Clegane
Do Paladins in general imbibe spirits?
Yes, but only holy spirits.
and if they are unholy spirits, they get the smite evil |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 12:55:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's my understanding that drinking milk and fruit juices were not really a widespread thing... It would certainly happen in more rural areas, but not so much in cities.
I see. The post seemed generical to me. If you think that generical must be limited to widespread, I understand. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 15:33:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's my understanding that drinking milk and fruit juices were not really a widespread thing... It would certainly happen in more rural areas, but not so much in cities.
I see. The post seemed generical to me. If you think that generical must be limited to widespread, I understand.
Well, what I'm saying is, the places where milk and fruit juices are more likely to be consumed are not the places where you're going to find paladins. You'd have these things drunk more oft in farming communities, and the like, where the most exciting thing in recent memory is that the miller's son may have seen a goblin 5 (or was it 6?) summers ago.
In larger communities, where there are more smite-worthy targets, the availability of milks and fruit juices will be limited -- but the availability of paladins will not be as limited. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2016 : 22:00:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the Realms, as with most medievalish fantasy settings, you drink something alcoholic, or you drink water...
Hey, have the Realms fruits, from where one can extract juice? What about milk, are there domestic mammals? Both milk and juice are perfectly suitable drinks fort paladins, IMO!
Well, of course. But both options are also very unreliable - as in, available at home from the local market in the regions where they are produced, but not something anyone would consider taking for a travel or be sure to get in an unknown place. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2016 : 14:13:00
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In the Realms, as with most medievalish fantasy settings, you drink something alcoholic, or you drink water...
Hey, have the Realms fruits, from where one can extract juice? What about milk, are there domestic mammals? Both milk and juice are perfectly suitable drinks fort paladins, IMO!
Well, of course. But both options are also very unreliable - as in, available at home from the local market in the regions where they are produced, but not something anyone would consider taking for a travel or be sure to get in an unknown place.
unless the juice is fermented... :) |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2016 : 20:52:13
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While some faiths may require periods of abstinence from various things (specific foods, alcohol, sex, drugs, etc.) during rituals, I see no requirement in Wooly's post on Cavaliers for sexual abstinence on the part of Paladins either.
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Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess |
Edited by - xaviera on 21 Apr 2016 20:52:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2016 : 21:40:29
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quote:
Originally posted by xaviera
While some faiths may require periods of abstinence from various things (specific foods, alcohol, sex, drugs, etc.) during rituals, I see no requirement in Wooly's post on Cavaliers for sexual abstinence on the part of Paladins either.
Correct. I noted that chastity wasn't mentioned.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 18:40:31
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A drunken paladin would likely think and act differently than a drunken non-paladin. Driven to righteousness, defense of the weak, blathering and proselytizing fanatically about his faith and his god. He might make some stupid and even violent choices, he might be an overbearing bully, he might make everyone else want him to shut up and go away. He could always cast cure poison on himself in an emergency, lol.
But I can easily imagine two LG paladins who worship different deities getting drunk together. Then getting into some heavily impassioned evangelism and theological debates. Then getting into some heavily armed demonstrations of faith. Then, if they're absolutely stinking drunk, getting into conflicts which cause much harm to innocent people and property. In fact, they might impulsively issue insults (or stubbornly refuse to back down from insults) to each others' faiths, which can easily lead to spontaneous duels, morning duels, morning marches of armies, and even local holy wars.
A paladin might have to be Lawful Good, he might be expected to strive as an exemplary icon of his glorious faith. He might be the worldly hand of the purest and holiest and strongest and most just of all the gods in all the lands. But he is only human. Still affected by alcohol. He is a better drinker, perhaps, only because - unlike most other drunks - he possesses a strong ethical imperative to be held responsible for his actions after the fact. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 19:01:55
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One could argue that drunkenness would violate some of the tenets above -- drunk people are rarely courteous or worthy of respect, and it's not uncommon for someone who is drunk to act in a dishonorable fashion.
So I would expect that most paladins would exercise caution, and would rarely drink to the point of getting a buzz, much less go past that, except in very rare circumstances. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 23:07:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
unless the juice is fermented... :)
Both juice and milk, really - kefir, lebban, koumiss. Common traditional versions have alcohol content wa-a-ay greater than modern mass-produced ones... that don't store too well.
The thing is, there are very few preserving agents widely available with primitive means: mainly salt and ethanol. Oils, in certain cases. And smoking process, but that's only for meat and often combined with salt anyway.
Which brings us back,in that given how much of travel food is going to include salt, one is likely to want more liquid than at home, even if the heat isn't a problem. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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xaviera
Learned Scribe
Canada
149 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2016 : 14:22:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
A drunken paladin would likely think and act differently than a drunken non-paladin.
I agree. I think that many paladins would be encouraged to live lifestyles of relative temperance for precisely the reasons you suggest, but that in most cases it is not a requirement of their faith and the occasional drink (or bed companion) would not be overly frowned upon except by that variety of puritan (not uncommon among paladins) known for having sticks up their arses.
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Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2016 : 21:13:03
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| Paladins and knights in our history were not as constrained as monks and clergy. Vows of abstinence and celibacy might be commendable demonstrations of faith but they're also very incompatible with what essentially boils down to being a professionally violent soldier with a professionally violent lifestyle. The paladin will be encouraged to drink, party, carouse, and whore away along with his peers - whether they be his equals, his superiors, or his inferiors. And some carefully drunken comraderie might present many opportunities for religious enlightenment among fellows who would otherwise have no interest in (and much disdain for) organized religion. And, as mentioned above, back in those days you'd generally fare better drinking the alcohol than drinking the water (or beverages made from the water) simply because the alcohol discourages growth and transmission of many common water-borne diseases - things like cholera and dysentary and infection might be less of an issue when one has access to cure disease, but they're still serious threats which can drop a warrior as surely as a holy sword - wines and ales and meads are much safer (and perhaps tastier) alternatives to dirty water. Besides, a paladin ain't a saint, and he isn't truly expected to behave like one every moment of his life (even if his mighty god is said to always be watching), many individuals feel that some casual intake of alcohol (or other substances) is no real issue provided it's done responsibly, a few nights of drunken revelry are not a crime. (Assuming the local laws allow some tolerance and do not expressly forbid a LG person from consuming such stuff, of course.) Maybe paladins always disarm themselves, divest themselves of spells and car-keys, and appoint one among their number as the responsible sober chaparone whenever they plan to drink in excess? |
[/Ayrik] |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2016 : 19:06:37
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In my Realms…. Paladins enjoy wine, women and song.
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Paladins and Drinking
