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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 11:27:32
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So.
Not all evil gods have to be cackling lunatics or poor expies of Sauron the Maia. Sure, you can't do much with Cyric McCrazypants, but that's no excuse for the milder Myrkul.
Let's take Bane.
Tyranny. Hatred. Fear.
To the uncivilized world, to the harshest of the outbacks and the most backwater of continents, Bane is more than that. Bane is civilization. Bane is safety. Bane is protection. Bane is the promise that your wife won't be raped by marauders, your children won't be stolen by bandits.
Bane is harsh law. Bane advocates the sternest of punishments, the harshest of judgements, because that is what they need. Bane teaches that anyone, from the lowest of the low, can rise to power, can gain power, as long as they follow his Law. Bane teaches that those who strike at them, those who plunder their women, kill their men, steal their children, deserve hatred and no mercy. Mercy is a luxury they cannot afford.
Outside, among the divine spheres, Bane honors his word. He is a tyrant, but he brings law; harsh and cruel and draconian, but law all the same. He is willing to work with his enemies for a common goal. He rules armies from his Black Bastion in Avalas, plans and waits and strategizes. Bane praises forethought and planning, and even allows some small victories among his enemies. He brings the same law to those he conquers; all are equal in the eyes of Bane, for there are none above His Law.
What is one victory now, to his triumph later?
What is some small joy now, to motivate the march and fury of his troops?
In the end, all shall belong to Bane.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 13:30:22
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Interesting, reminds of the Lawgiver incarnation of Bane from Ravenloft, and it makes sense to me.
Bhaal for example, could be worshipped by butchers, executioners etc.
Although I think it was mentioned in canon executioners worshipped Bhaal.
While for some evil deities it has sense they are absolutelly malicious(like Lolth, being an ascendded Demon Lord), most evil gods shouldn't be basically fiendishly evil.
Shar kind-off suffered among the most in canon. While she had been given a big spotlight since WoTC took over D&D and the Realms, they made her and her worshippers seem often like card carrying villains, while she had potential be a very interesting nihilistic deity. |
Edited by - Baltas on 12 Jan 2016 13:33:24 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 13:59:44
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Lolth and Cyric are both pants-on crazy. All tanar'ri-turned-gods are pretty vile monsters.
Otherwise, I find it difficult to see most evil deities as being the frothing lunatics they're painted as. What does it benefit Velsharoon to have his servants harass those of Mystra and Azuth? Shar's the deity of nihilism, but also the goddess of avengers and loss. The mother who lost her only son to a crusade might cling to Shar's altar, praying for justice. The wife of a murdered husband and mother of a slaughtered son kisses the Dark Moon of Shar and picks up a sword, trusting in the goddess to lead her to the guilty.
There's nothing wrong in Shar being evil, but she should be horrifying in how kind she is. Why do you oppose her? All she wishes is to bring the true peace of nothingness to all creation. No more tears, no more agony, no more pain. Only blessed silence.
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 14:22:31
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I always viewed Shar as a god of the elite, those with riches and power and much to lose.
By offering your worship to the goddess of loss you thereby safeguard your immediate future from losing what you hold most dear.
Of course in return you must gradually offer up more and more of your wealth, your power, and eventually your family and your life, because Shar is all consuming and demands the loss of everything.
The problem I have is that the worship of Shar is in small cults not a large unified church.
How/why would someone encounter these cults, what is their façade that makes them seem so appealing.
For the Dark Moon I'm entertaining the idea of spinning it into a bank, a super safe vault of both money and secrets, where they use their skills to literal pluck the secret from your mind so that none (even yourself) can possibly recover that secret.
Of course they then use these secrets to blackmail people for money.
I'd imagine Shar's cult acts as a kind of Stonemason's club whereing new members join and pledge an amount of belongings to the club for protection and access to the increased contacts the other members bring. The longer you remain a member the steeper the cost of membership, and as you advance in status in the club again the steeper the cost.
Ultimately what happens is that the more senior members fleece the more junior members of their riches and power in order to pay for their own membership (and sometimes the junior members kill the more senior members in revenge or to reobtain their property).
Only the most senior of members knows what the club is really about, and they end up with all the wealth and power. What they do with it is up to them but ultimately Shar takes all and when they die they lose anyway.
Just a work in progress idea for one god but I kind of like the 5e take on the religions, bringing the organisation into focus for the masses and why someone would bother to engage with an evil religion.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 14:36:16
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Otherwise, I find it difficult to see most evil deities as being the frothing lunatics they're painted as. What does it benefit Velsharoon to have his servants harass those of Mystra and Azuth? Shar's the deity of nihilism, but also the goddess of avengers and loss. The mother who lost her only son to a crusade might cling to Shar's altar, praying for justice. The wife of a murdered husband and mother of a slaughtered son kisses the Dark Moon of Shar and picks up a sword, trusting in the goddess to lead her to the guilty.
There's nothing wrong in Shar being evil, but she should be horrifying in how kind she is. Why do you oppose her? All she wishes is to bring the true peace of nothingness to all creation. No more tears, no more agony, no more pain. Only blessed silence.
Indeed. Even Ed himself said that cults of evil deities can coexist with normal people, because they are not just ''ebil'' in the stupid way, they bring something useful.
As for Shar, that's pretty much how I use her in my game, and WotC's cheesy portrayal of this deity really disappointed me. But then, WotC seems to like only villains who are evil ''just 'cause''. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 12 Jan 2016 14:37:11 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 16:45:24
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Lolth and Cyric are both pants-on crazy. All tanar'ri-turned-gods are pretty vile monsters.
Otherwise, I find it difficult to see most evil deities as being the frothing lunatics they're painted as. What does it benefit Velsharoon to have his servants harass those of Mystra and Azuth? Shar's the deity of nihilism, but also the goddess of avengers and loss. The mother who lost her only son to a crusade might cling to Shar's altar, praying for justice. The wife of a murdered husband and mother of a slaughtered son kisses the Dark Moon of Shar and picks up a sword, trusting in the goddess to lead her to the guilty.
There's nothing wrong in Shar being evil, but she should be horrifying in how kind she is. Why do you oppose her? All she wishes is to bring the true peace of nothingness to all creation. No more tears, no more agony, no more pain. Only blessed silence.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Indeed. Even Ed himself said that cults of evil deities can coexist with normal people, because they are not just ''ebil'' in the stupid way, they bring something useful.
As for Shar, that's pretty much how I use her in my game, and WotC's cheesy portrayal of this deity really disappointed me. But then, WotC seems to like only villains who are evil ''just 'cause''.
Yeah, that's also how I portray Shar, as the avenger, and patron of those who have known loss, and were overhelmed by it.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I always viewed Shar as a god of the elite, those with riches and power and much to lose.
By offering your worship to the goddess of loss you thereby safeguard your immediate future from losing what you hold most dear.
Of course in return you must gradually offer up more and more of your wealth, your power, and eventually your family and your life, because Shar is all consuming and demands the loss of everything.
The problem I have is that the worship of Shar is in small cults not a large unified church.
How/why would someone encounter these cults, what is their façade that makes them seem so appealing.
For the Dark Moon I'm entertaining the idea of spinning it into a bank, a super safe vault of both money and secrets, where they use their skills to literal pluck the secret from your mind so that none (even yourself) can possibly recover that secret.
Of course they then use these secrets to blackmail people for money.
I'd imagine Shar's cult acts as a kind of Stonemason's club whereing new members join and pledge an amount of belongings to the club for protection and access to the increased contacts the other members bring. The longer you remain a member the steeper the cost of membership, and as you advance in status in the club again the steeper the cost.
Ultimately what happens is that the more senior members fleece the more junior members of their riches and power in order to pay for their own membership (and sometimes the junior members kill the more senior members in revenge or to reobtain their property).
Only the most senior of members knows what the club is really about, and they end up with all the wealth and power. What they do with it is up to them but ultimately Shar takes all and when they die they lose anyway.
Just a work in progress idea for one god but I kind of like the 5e take on the religions, bringing the organisation into focus for the masses and why someone would bother to engage with an evil religion.
That's another interesting take on Shar's cult, but I have in my game that the large part of Shar's cult, are people broken by their loss. Especially the highest authorities of the cult of Shar, those who exacly know Shar's plan to destroy Toril, are people who turned to Shar from loss and despair. Because those are people who I think could realistically want the end of the world, and even belive they are brining out everyone out of their misery by doing it. |
Edited by - Baltas on 12 Jan 2016 16:47:07 |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 16:49:32
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I had a similar thought recently about Beshaba, she is said to be worshiped mostly out of fear and it's not a true reverence.
But what if we're talking about someone who's life was pretty much crap, who lives in city and is sneered by the far more fortunate on a daily basis, be they nobles, rich merchants or what have you, who perhaps simply inherited what they have rather than earning it in some way. That person prays to Tymora, again and again, but he simply doesn't get a chance in life. And just about when he's ready to give up a priestess of Beshaba just happens to come and have a nice talk with him and tell him she can't really give him what he wants out of life, she can't conjure even the tiniest little amount of good fortune, but she can give him a chance to wipe the smirks of the faces of those who have mocked him his entire life. And who knows maybe that priestess has had her eyes on that person for a while, maybe a lot of his misfortune can be traced to her, but he doesn't know that. So he accepts, being bitter and disillusioned with the life he had and the society he was a part of, and he get back at who he perceives to be his tormentors, and for the first time in a long while he feel that he haves some amount off power in his life, some measure of control. Maybe he does, or maybe he is just playing into the role the priestess designed for him, it matters little in the end. So she offers to teach him, to venerate Beshaba is to gain some small amount of protection from what she provide after all.
I find something like this to be a lot more suited for role-playing than simply, he was a vicious and spiteful person before and so when the opportunity presented itself he took so he can be even more of a vicious and spiteful person to those around him. It makes the whole priesthood a lot more interesting, an intelligent enemy who strikes at the most opportune time and otherwise bides it's time, rather than just going around terrorizing everybody. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 17:08:29
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As I understand it, to the common person, Shar represents not protection from loss, but instead a way of dealing with loss that has happened. And not simple property loss, but the loss of having your heart broken by a loved one, or losing a loved one like a dear friend or family member. What Shar offers the regular person is a way to deal with the pain of emotional loss. That's why people turn to her -- they are seeking solace and the cessation of their emotional hurts.
I would imagine that those who embrace her priesthood are the ones who just can't let go of their pain, or they embrace pain as the price of living. Even then, until they get to the higher ranks, they don't find out Shar's true goals.
I think Shar has been misrepresented as a force of destruction, when destruction isn't her goal at all -- it's just a means to an end. She doesn't want to destroy the world, she just wants the world to not exist - if the world could be more easily gotten rid of thru means other than destruction, she'd go that route. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Jan 2016 17:09:51 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 17:55:18
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Brilliant explanation of Shar and her believers Wooly.
I also really like the idea the Shar wants less to destruction of the world, and more for the world to just not exist. |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 20:04:18
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Enjoying this thread. Definitely gives me a better perspective on how to portray the "evil" (LE/NE/CE) deities.
"Evil is complicated". |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 20:29:31
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I think there are probably multiple things here.
Getting normal people to offer take part in casual worship probably wouldn't acquire much interest if all the club offered was solace from loss. Yes everyone experiences loss at some point in their lives, but few are so consumed by it that they can find no solace elsewhere.
For my interpretation cults are created around charismatic prophets and each cult has its own philosophy and agenda. When the prophet dies the cult collapses or shrinks then new cults rise out of the ashes in different places under different prophets.
I think there were 3 such cults during Netheril's time, one under Nether the Elder, one under Dahlia of Sepulchre, one under Gorothir. Each formed out of the ashes of the first.
The Cult of the Dark Moon seems new and centred on Sembia. I'm thinking they appeal to lay members by advertising as a secret society that safeguards secrets for its members and helps them hold onto and advance their wealth and station.
The clergy members are drawn to exclusive worship of Shar through terrible loss that they cannot escape (loss usually induced by membership in the club). Solace is offered by worshipping Shar as they are gradually turned to greater acts of evil that reduce their caring and compassion and so they no longer care for the loss they have suffered as they become evil monsters with hearts of stone that then visit the same evils on their parishioners.
The clubs are at first lucrative for lay members willing to embrace the ideology (screw or be screwed) but gradually the fees for membership become so steep they cannot afford to pay without screwing over other people. Those that don't pay lose everything (up to and including their life if necessary, although I'd imagine most go mad or commit suicide) some worthy few that lose everything and then get even become future priests and priestesses who establish branch secret societies in other settlements and continue the cycle.
Keep the thoughts coming guys I'm hoping to rewrite all the Faerunian religions and this stuff is golden brainstorming.
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2016 : 21:13:41
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Well, Asmodeus' cult is quite well developed in Pathfinder,even mantaining relationships with non-evil deities and their clergy.
Talos could be spinned as seen as the destructive part of nature, but still part of it. And without destruction, change and new creation wouldn't be able to occur. The fertility on Mount Vesuvius, is due to it being a volcano, and the cycles of destruction it creates when it awakens and erupts. The Mountain was even worshipped as the embodiment of Jupiter's/Jove's power - Iovi Vesvvio - Jupiter Vesuvius.
Lightning creates Ozone/O3, which is necersary for the existence of life on planets. There are many other examples...
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 14:38:07
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I don't think the clergy of the Dark Lord can be accurately described as a cult. It's a state religion and the Devil is an important religious figure in Golarion's myth.
Let's see...
Myrkul, as his role as the Reaper, represents the finality of death. He's the end of the line, the shepherd of souls. In this, he's simply carrying out his duties as part of the cycle of life and death. His clergy are entrusted with the readings of the last rites and the wills of the deceased, and are the fairest and most impartial of judges. They guard the tombs of the deceased, and the undead of a Myrkulyte cemetery are always raised for a reason: for the justice of a murdered man, for the ghost who never had time to say goodbye to his wife, to the mohrg condemned to protect the people he once preyed on. His priests carry out the duties others are too squeamish to do; the sentences of criminals and the condemned, the executions of murderers and monsters.
From the Castle of Bones, deep in the Gray Waste, Myrkul sends forth his avatars to both kings and peasants. All are equal in death and the finality of his judgement. "My hand is everywhere," he warns. No matter where you flee, no matter how many obstacles you put up between yourself and the grave, Myrkul is everywhere, and he does not look kindly on those who think to outwit death. It is said that liches must appeal to Myrkul first, and all are obliged to perform a single great service before he allows them to be reborn into unlife.
He too is the Lord of Dusk. In this, he is a sun god in his own way, Lathander's dark brother. Druids call on him as well, for what is dusk if not a natural part of the cycle of light and darkness? Old Lord Skull is the bridge between the day and the night, from toil to sweet slumber, and it is said he personally collects the souls of those who die in the twilight hours. In this, even the Lathanderites grudgingly respect him, and the priests of the Lord of Bones are often arbiters between the churches of the Morninglord and the Dark Lady.
His servants are more than just the reapers and their greater brethren. Psychopomps serve him as dutifully as the reapers, and those who have made peace with death are taken by these milder spirits. Necromancers bow to his altar, for Myrkul was once one of them before he rose to divinity. In this, his faith among the dark mages far surpass those of Mystra and Azuth. Undead in the service of those necromancers are always more polished, more perfect than others; skeletons sport gleaming bones of ivory, zombies look almost indistinguishable from the living. |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2016 : 15:11:47
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I don't think the clergy of the Dark Lord can be accurately described as a cult. It's a state religion and the Devil is an important religious figure in Golarion's myth.
Well, by "cult", I meant the cleargy in general, but I probably used here not the best word...
But yeah, Asmodeus is very important to Golarion's mythos, and even, "heroic" in a sense, as he along with Sarenrae, were the most crucial saving the world from being devoured by Rovagug. |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2016 : 21:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I don't think the clergy of the Dark Lord can be accurately described as a cult. It's a state religion and the Devil is an important religious figure in Golarion's myth.
Let's see...
Myrkul, as his role as the Reaper, represents the finality of death. He's the end of the line, the shepherd of souls. In this, he's simply carrying out his duties as part of the cycle of life and death. His clergy are entrusted with the readings of the last rites and the wills of the deceased, and are the fairest and most impartial of judges. They guard the tombs of the deceased, and the undead of a Myrkulyte cemetery are always raised for a reason: for the justice of a murdered man, for the ghost who never had time to say goodbye to his wife, to the mohrg condemned to protect the people he once preyed on. His priests carry out the duties others are too squeamish to do; the sentences of criminals and the condemned, the executions of murderers and monsters.
From the Castle of Bones, deep in the Gray Waste, Myrkul sends forth his avatars to both kings and peasants. All are equal in death and the finality of his judgement. "My hand is everywhere," he warns. No matter where you flee, no matter how many obstacles you put up between yourself and the grave, Myrkul is everywhere, and he does not look kindly on those who think to outwit death. It is said that liches must appeal to Myrkul first, and all are obliged to perform a single great service before he allows them to be reborn into unlife.
He too is the Lord of Dusk. In this, he is a sun god in his own way, Lathander's dark brother. Druids call on him as well, for what is dusk if not a natural part of the cycle of light and darkness? Old Lord Skull is the bridge between the day and the night, from toil to sweet slumber, and it is said he personally collects the souls of those who die in the twilight hours. In this, even the Lathanderites grudgingly respect him, and the priests of the Lord of Bones are often arbiters between the churches of the Morninglord and the Dark Lady.
His servants are more than just the reapers and their greater brethren. Psychopomps serve him as dutifully as the reapers, and those who have made peace with death are taken by these milder spirits. Necromancers bow to his altar, for Myrkul was once one of them before he rose to divinity. In this, his faith among the dark mages far surpass those of Mystra and Azuth. Undead in the service of those necromancers are always more polished, more perfect than others; skeletons sport gleaming bones of ivory, zombies look almost indistinguishable from the living.
You seems to have misplaced Myrkul for Jergal. Based on their description Jergal is the patient grim reaper you describe opposed to Myrkul's undead will rule all doctrine. During Myrkul's reign peope feared dead as it didn't offered peace but a risk of undeath - he ignored Jergal's tradition of sealing the grave. Then the mantle came to Cyric who had similar view as Myrkul but not for long and Kelemvor is the first "good" god of death and he is actively promoting "peaceful rest after death" again sealing graves and fighting all undead actively.
For Shar I see two different sort of folowers - one are made by wronged individuals wanting revange - mostly not organized or drafted by clerics of Shar. Other are secretive clubs of powerful people venerating her for her power over secrets. They meet to deal with them and use those secrets fro enhancing their power.
One evil god that still eludes me is Moander. Does anybody know what was his deal with Cormanthor? For almost thousand years he was pushing his folowers against this elven forest, they were decimated again and again and he never left. He even allowed for his avatar to be destroyed by elves. This muste have been realy important to him as he get ousted from realms for it... |
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2016 : 21:44:20
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Lolth and Cyric are both pants-on crazy. All tanar'ri-turned-gods are pretty vile monsters.
Otherwise, I find it difficult to see most evil deities as being the frothing lunatics they're painted as. What does it benefit Velsharoon to have his servants harass those of Mystra and Azuth? Shar's the deity of nihilism, but also the goddess of avengers and loss. The mother who lost her only son to a crusade might cling to Shar's altar, praying for justice. The wife of a murdered husband and mother of a slaughtered son kisses the Dark Moon of Shar and picks up a sword, trusting in the goddess to lead her to the guilty.
There's nothing wrong in Shar being evil, but she should be horrifying in how kind she is. Why do you oppose her? All she wishes is to bring the true peace of nothingness to all creation. No more tears, no more agony, no more pain. Only blessed silence.
Lolth is seldarine goddess of destiny and patron of dark elves (Illithiri) - second most powerful subrace of elves in their time. Only once she was cast out by Corellion she ended in Abyss, devoured a demon lord and took his domain (Demonweb pits) for a start. She also took with her whole dark elven pantheon (except Fenmarel) and is served by primordial Ghaunadaur. She is mad with revange against Sedarine (mainly Corellion) but I can understand her reason and that gods freuds take longer. She basicaly considers herself superior to others (same as Corellion and his gold elves - see crown wars) that is not madness in my eyes.
Cyric was lowly human Zhent who somehow got power of four powerful gods (Bane, Bhaal, Leira, Myrkul) and was basicaly left to deal with it. I can understand how one can get insane by this. In the end he is left with power of Bhaal and part of Leira's and he is basicaly getting settled. Still mildly insane but fitting with his portfolio of murders and lies. I see him as typical evil protagonist who wants evil for evil's sake - he doesn't care about consequences of his actions as long as it is evil. In my take he will soon ally with Shar as to sever his dependance on Wieve (Mystra). |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2016 : 01:43:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
Lolth is seldarine goddess of destiny and patron of dark elves (Illithiri) - second most powerful subrace of elves in their time. Only once she was cast out by Corellion she ended in Abyss, devoured a demon lord and took his domain (Demonweb pits) for a start. She also took with her whole dark elven pantheon (except Fenmarel) and is served by primordial Ghaunadaur. She is mad with revange against Sedarine (mainly Corellion) but I can understand her reason and that gods freuds take longer. She basicaly considers herself superior to others (same as Corellion and his gold elves - see crown wars) that is not madness in my eyes.
The madness is what she does to the drow. The dogma and kind of life that she imposes to them just doesn't make sense. Lolth doesn't care about her followers in any way (save that they must be her property), and is willing to throw them away like toys, even when they have proved valuable assets. What she does is not ''natural selection'', as she puts it, it's utter brainwashing, indoctrination, and isolation to prevent them from seeing that they are just puppets to her, and that other lifestyles are not only possible, but more successful.
Her domga is all about denying joy and happiness to the others and even oneself, because ''fear, strength and dominating the others is all that matters'' and so on. It basically leads to self-abnegation, constant and exhausting infighting, and --paradoxically-- to the loss of much of the strength of the drow people: cunning, which is what Lolth's dogma favors, is not the same as creativity and intelligence, which are needed for a people to actually advance, and that are wasted in a Lolthite society. In fact, Lolth doesn't care about her people developing arts, magic, or anything that could improve the quality of their life or their odds of success, she doesn't care about them developing in any way, and is responsible for their utter stagnation and general failures.
What have the drow achieved over millennia, under Lolth's tyranny? When someone creates art, or magic or something new that could bring progress (and I'm not saying that the drow don't do that, they can be creative, ofc), it doesn't matter unless said someone uses it to kill other drow and ''raise in status''. The research for anything that could bring advancement to their people is abandoned in favor of focusing one's intelligence and abilities towards backstabbing, because that is the only thing that counts. Humans have achieved impressive feats (just think of the magic of Imaskar, Netheril, Halruaa); Elves have their High Magic, capable of creating wonders and lay waste, their art and crafts; the drow have... crafts based on magic that draws power from some underground phenomenon, that couldn't even work on the surface before Liriel --who ironically violated every thing Lolth stands for, except maybe ''chaos''-- found a way to make it function there.
Compare with what the drow were before Lolth: followers of Eilistraee in Miyeritar made it flourish into one of the greatest centers of art and high magic in Faerun; Ilythiir, where Vhaeraun's faith was strong, could stand toe to toe with the empire of Aryvandaar. Then enters Lolth, and the drow wither. Seems that her ''survival of the fittest'' is a rather disastrous idea.
If WotC wanted to go for a more ''realistic'' approach, a *lot* of drow would have given the middle finger to Lolth a long time ago, especically when you have other drow and even two deities who go out of their way just to make it happen. No being wants to live a joyless, choice-less, ugly life, with no development or possibility of self-fulfillment whatsoever beyond ''you must kill other people and get teh powah''. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Jan 2016 01:44:14 |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2016 : 04:48:58
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| As I understand it, Myrkul wasn't really about undead at all, and only had power over the mindless skeletons and zombies. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2016 : 08:26:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigley
You seems to have misplaced Myrkul for Jergal. Based on their description Jergal is the patient grim reaper you describe opposed to Myrkul's undead will rule all doctrine. During Myrkul's reign peope feared dead as it didn't offered peace but a risk of undeath - he ignored Jergal's tradition of sealing the grave. Then the mantle came to Cyric who had similar view as Myrkul but not for long and Kelemvor is the first "good" god of death and he is actively promoting "peaceful rest after death" again sealing graves and fighting all undead actively.
For Shar I see two different sort of folowers - one are made by wronged individuals wanting revange - mostly not organized or drafted by clerics of Shar. Other are secretive clubs of powerful people venerating her for her power over secrets. They meet to deal with them and use those secrets fro enhancing their power.
One evil god that still eludes me is Moander. Does anybody know what was his deal with Cormanthor? For almost thousand years he was pushing his folowers against this elven forest, they were decimated again and again and he never left. He even allowed for his avatar to be destroyed by elves. This muste have been realy important to him as he get ousted from realms for it...
Jergal, before Myrkul's reign, was far from the peaceful Grim Reaper. He had all the portfolios of the dark three; that's some seriously bad juju. He gave up his power because he was bored, not out of a moral revelation.
Also, Myrkul's all about cruel irony. Resurrecting some murderer as a twisted undead abomination then setting it to guard the community it once terrorized is the sort of thing he'd do for kicks. He's also noted to be fair to his own servants, even if it's just to seem unpredictable, so using both psychopomps and reapers as his divine servants seems appropriate.
@valarmorghulis - Not in 2e. Myrkul sent incorporeal undead as well, his trademark divine servants were incorporeal undead, and his touch allowed him to create any undead creature, but only greater undead such as liches and vampires were allowed free will as long as they performed a single task of his choice. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2016 : 14:39:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As I understand it, to the common person, Shar represents not protection from loss, but instead a way of dealing with loss that has happened. And not simple property loss, but the loss of having your heart broken by a loved one, or losing a loved one like a dear friend or family member. What Shar offers the regular person is a way to deal with the pain of emotional loss. That's why people turn to her -- they are seeking solace and the cessation of their emotional hurts.
I would imagine that those who embrace her priesthood are the ones who just can't let go of their pain, or they embrace pain as the price of living. Even then, until they get to the higher ranks, they don't find out Shar's true goals.
I think Shar has been misrepresented as a force of destruction, when destruction isn't her goal at all -- it's just a means to an end. She doesn't want to destroy the world, she just wants the world to not exist - if the world could be more easily gotten rid of thru means other than destruction, she'd go that route.
I agree, Shar is more about you coming to her and sharing your painful secrets. Her clergy then offer comfort from the pain (often in the form of addictive drugs). The person then becomes dependent on that which "takes away their pain", but they often don't have the means to continue paying for it. So, the clergy offers them a "deal" if they'll perform some simple act, such as passing on some information to a complete stranger (like the fact that their lover is cheating on them with a playpretty)... said information being some secret that another new convert has revealed. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2016 : 15:01:16
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On the idea about Talos, probably one of the better portrayals would be showing him as a powerful battlemage. He once tried to pose as Malyk, the god of wild and destructive magic. He could be seen as a powerful evoker (who possibly wields a great spear of lightning and a flaming shield). What almost worked once could work well with him again. Probably the best way to do this would be for him to present to his clergy a vision that he is re-risen and that they should take to murdering orcs and especially killing priests of Gruumsh. Of course, I would only do this if your campaign will reject the 4e idea that Gruumsh and Talos are the same being (which I will).
In doing this, many cultures may welcome priests of Talos, and they may even help construct temples which also serve as schools for training evokers and sorcerers whose magic was awakened via wild magic.
Another take could be that "Telos" in Vaasa was a portion of the body of Talos that fell to Toril because of his close ties to Toril (i.e. perhaps not ALL of every dead god's body is contained to the Astral). Thus, the warlock knights of Vaasa |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2016 : 15:23:30
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Also, along these lines, there's many other evil deities that could easily be seen as not necessarily bad in common society.
Malar could definitely be seen as a patron of the hunter, providing sustenance for the common folk in the form of meat obtained without having to raise it rather than the grains and tubers and berries that Chauntea traditionally represents(though Chauntea would also be seen as providing chickens, goats, sheep, cows, tamed pigs, etc..).
Leira could be seen as a fey goddess of illusion. As a trickster goddess, she might be seen similar to Loki, providing advantage to those who would use their wiles to get what they need. Many heads of state might even hire Leirans to help them "fluff" their contracts with hidden in plain sight wording that turns these contracts to their countries advantage. Leirans may also help a country by spreading propaganda in a neighboring country that turns commerce, war efforts, etc... toward their homeland. In this, Leirans, worshippers of Mask, and Gargauthans could be seen as in competition to a degree (though they may also work together towards other ends). Then, of course, there are the obvious battlefield advantages of illusion magic. Also, any school of magic which teaches the illusion arcane tradition would offer at least a shrine to this goddess.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2016 : 03:07:32
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@lord of bones - Interesting. I guess it changed from 1e to 2e then. I wonder why?
How is it that post-ToT evil deities maintain greater deity status when so few people would actually want to worship them? Compare Shar's portfolio to Chauntea or Tymora. There'd be at least 10,000 times as many worshipers of Chauntea as there would be a portfolio like Shar's. |
Edited by - valarmorgulis on 26 Jan 2016 03:12:37 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2016 : 12:52:12
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Well, Ed explained that rarelly in the Realms, people worship one deity excusivelly. People worshipping Chauntea, will also pray to Talos from time to time, to be speared from a cataclysm. Even cursing gods also seems to give them some substance, as it's still concentrating on them.
With deities like Shar, her worshippers are relativelly often fanatically devoted and dependent on her, making their worship particulary satiating.
And avout Shar, her portfolio is very large if you think about.
Darkness, Night, Unrevealed Secrets, and Loss are some pretty important stuff, and ones which everyone practically deals with.
Shar and Talos were also known to devour other deities, or drain them of power, in order to strenghten and substain themselves. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7973 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2016 : 19:36:23
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People will sometimes mutter a quick prayer to Shar, asking some painful memory be taken away.
Sailors will pray (and offer sacrifices) to Umberlee, asking for calm seas.
Auril or Talos might be invoked by farmers when heatwaves and drought threaten crops.
Just saying that most of the "evil" deities receive prayers from "good" people very often on a daily basis, sometimes to manifest benign favours, often to avert or appease them.
All that being said, y'all got Bane wrong. The strong rule the weak. Justice and Order (and Tyranny, and Bullying, lol) exists only when the strong and the weak properly understand their roles. |
[/Ayrik] |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2016 : 03:34:36
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Umberlee and Talos I get. Any sailor would pray for calm seas and no storms. But it generally makes more sense when there isn't a corresponding good deity where the prayers could be directed. So for example, if it's night and you are afraid, you could pray that Shar stay her hand, but more likely you would pray for protection from a benevolent deity.
Seems like the good deities, who would hold much more sway, would just have their priests encourage their flock to stop giving any prayers to evil deities. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2016 : 04:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Umberlee and Talos I get. Any sailor would pray for calm seas and no storms. But it generally makes more sense when there isn't a corresponding good deity where the prayers could be directed. So for example, if it's night and you are afraid, you could pray that Shar stay her hand, but more likely you would pray for protection from a benevolent deity.
Seems like the good deities, who would hold much more sway, would just have their priests encourage their flock to stop giving any prayers to evil deities.
You could pray to the god of dawn to get you thru the night... But if it's night when you pray, Lathander can't do crap for you -- it's not his time. You're solidly in Shar's territory.
So you could pray that you'll see the dawn -- but it's Shar that makes that call.
Knowing that both are real and powerful, do you offend Shar and risk her acting on that offense by praying to Lathander to protect you from her, or do you pray to her to be left alone and then give thanks to Lathander when the sun is shining?
Or, to look at it another way: You may be King Azoun IV's biggest fan -- but if you're in Zhentil Keep, you're obeying their laws and making sure you don't run afoul of the Black Network. When you're back home in Suzail, that's when you can walk down the street composing ballads to His Royal Randiness. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jan 2016 04:56:48 |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2016 : 05:42:25
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| Good point Wooly. But what about Loviatar, Bane, and all these others where the average peasant really has no crossover with them. I'm not saying they wouldn't get *some* worship... But it would be a lot less than what the gods of luck, protection, and agriculture, etc. get. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1486 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2016 : 11:38:15
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Good point Wooly. But what about Loviatar, Bane, and all these others where the average peasant really has no crossover with them. I'm not saying they wouldn't get *some* worship... But it would be a lot less than what the gods of luck, protection, and agriculture, etc. get.
The problem with many of the evil gods is, if we take them at face value, you'd have to be nuts to even consider serving them.
Let's take Loviatar; she's the goddess of pain and suffering, and is generally depicted as a BDSM pornstar. Unless a substantial number of people in the Realms are seriously into noncon S/M, you're left with the whole 'insane torture pornstar' vibe. I'd say that Loviatar also reigns over pain and suffering as a form of endurance; just look at yourself now, a great warrior, a skilled thief, a mighty archmage, but would you have come so far without pain and agony? Just look at all the wonderful scars and marks you have now! Look at how beautiful they are! Look at how far you've come! Wear those marks with pride!
Like wise, Bane is a stern, harsh taskmaster, but Banite domains are meritocracies. In a lot of ways, I'd see Banite-run places to be a lot like Cheliax. They'd be pragmatic villains a lot of the time; sure, their punishments are harsh and draconian, but when the gnolls who raped your wife in front of your horrified children are hunted down, tried and put to death by public castration, you're less inclined to care. Likewise, the Banites pay their men well, are far less likely to kill you for the evulz, and are generally pretty good repeat employers.
Velsharoon? Sure, he's the god of undeath and black magic, but his priests run schools, his necromancers use their undead to patrol villagers and crime rates have dropped, and his priests are free with their healing magics. Magelings, especially Thayvian magelings, look at him and see a success story; driven out of Thay and the Zulkir's seat, and what does he do? Survive for centuries, so powerful that his enemies never dared strike him even while he was in the open, developed half the necromantic spells in use today (canon, he developed the spells that mimic undead special attacks, which means wail of the banshee, enervation and likely most of the level drain/ability drain/undead name spells are his work) and then become a god. The common folk see that for an evil god, all he's doing is raising the undead, but the folks the next county over are singing praises about these funny blokes who stopped the nightly bandit attacks with undead, and all they asked for were the right to preach and take the bodies for experimentation. |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2016 : 12:04:39
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| If I'm in agony wouldn't I go to a pain bearer and ask them to bear my pain for me? For the right price, would a servant of Loviatar not take on that pain for the right price?Imagine a Loviatar ability that allows you to freely heal others by taking their damage (or status conditions) and giving it to either yourself or another willing creature? Might not be balanced, but from a story perspective it opens up all sorts of opportunities. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2016 : 13:13:48
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quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch
If I'm in agony wouldn't I go to a pain bearer and ask them to bear my pain for me? For the right price, would a servant of Loviatar not take on that pain for the right price?Imagine a Loviatar ability that allows you to freely heal others by taking their damage (or status conditions) and giving it to either yourself or another willing creature? Might not be balanced, but from a story perspective it opens up all sorts of opportunities.
In that instance, you're crossing over into Ilmater's territory. Loviatar is a good example of one who the common populace probably wouldn't revere, BUT those who revere her do so with fervor. In her particular instance, it might be less so about quantity as it is about quality. That all being said, the king's torturer would probably be an accepted follower of Loviatar. Similarly, many villages might not have the monetary funds to upkeep a prison, so instead they pay a punisher (and therefore you'd need someone who will do the job with such relish that people don't break the law).
Most of the other gods, as you c |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Fleshing out the Evil Gods
