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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 03:28:19
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I've noticed that there are mention of hundreds of 18+ level mages in the Realms, but very few mentions of high-level characters of other classes. Sure there are some, particularly clerics, but what about fighters, rogues, etc...?
Is there a reason why there's only a handful of 20+ level fighters? By the old XP tables, becoming a high level wizard required a lot more XP.
Could it be that mages tend to extend their lives and therefore they don't die-off like other classes might? Is mastering magic easier in the Realms than it might be in other worlds?
And how can there be so many liches? Larloch apparently has at least 60, Elminster has killed at least 100 according to one book.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 04:00:52
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| Mages are sexier, so they get all the attention -- especially in a magic-rich setting like the Realms. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 10:09:57
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Because wizards are gods.
No, seriously, arcane spellcasters are hilariously powerful. About the only real threat to a wizard is a wizard of the equivalent CR. |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 18:14:50
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Sure, but one of the reasons they are gods is because they are high level. Low level wizards ain't all that.
Also, I noticed that a large percentage of the female wizards are described as stunningly beautiful or some-such. Seems silly.
And as I looked at the 1e boxed set I saw that some of the key players were a lot lower level. I wonder why there was so much level creep in 2e. Elminster in particular jumped up a lot of levels. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 21:11:18
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Also, I noticed that a large percentage of the female wizards are described as stunningly beautiful or some-such. Seems silly.
What good is all that magic power if you can't improve your looks with it?  |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 22:34:35
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| Touche! |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 22:44:10
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| I had a random theory on that. If I'm not mistaken, a lot of the old 2E stuff came to us through an Elminster filter. Even the Volo's Guides were "screened" by the Sage of Shadowdale. So... maybe the only reason we don't hear about non-casters as much is because El is not quite as familiar with them, or because they tend to keep a lower profile? Maybe he's only telling us about Larloch, Manshoon, and other casters because those are the "people of note" in his circles. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 23:20:08
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| The real answer is as the Wizards gain in power they polymorth all the fighters and thieves into frogs or other such creatures. That is why some animals are very hard to kill, they are level 15 or higher fighters. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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eeorey
Seeker
Bulgaria
96 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2016 : 23:28:44
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| I like the way Delwa put it. Imagine yourself as a newly starting adventurer in the realms, a level one fighter and a level twenty fighter can both do the same thing to you - kill you with a sword, whereas a level one wizard can't destroy your whole village the same way a higher level one can. Casters, not just wizards but also clerics, sorcerers, druids etc. are always going to be much more impressive because they can wreak devastation not only with a higher quality but with also on a larger scale as they "get gud". So you pick up Volo's new guide and of course you're gonna do your best not to piss the caster off, you can run away and hide from the fighter, but you can't hide in a burning building/town, at least not for any effective length of time. Volo knew that so he made sure to warn his readers, who after all do need to be alive to buy his next guide. |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 02:52:31
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| That's an interesting way of looking at it and it make sense. But it doesn't really explain why there are so many high-level mages everywhere. Every city seems to have at least a couple mages who are capable of casting Wish. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 04:07:46
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
That's an interesting way of looking at it and it make sense. But it doesn't really explain why there are so many high-level mages everywhere. Every city seems to have at least a couple mages who are capable of casting Wish.
Yeah, but that's one or two people out of how many thousands? |
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Owesstaer
Acolyte
Luxembourg
30 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 08:26:31
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I think another reason for more high level mages than other classes is pure and simple: old age
Not only do mages have the possibility to exceed natural live-expectancy, but they actually even get better (Int increase during age categories) whereas warriors and rogues weaken even upon reaching middle age already.
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 09:58:27
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Even 1-2 out of 10,000 seems like a lot when you consider the amount of power a mage of that level wields, and the obscene amount of XP required to actually get to that level. But perhaps a bunch of mages of that level sort of keep each other in check.
I wonder if Ed intended for there to be so many high level mages or if it just happened as others starting writing guidebooks. |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 11:04:34
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Over the years, I have noticed level inflation taking place. If you look at the Old Grey Box, for instance, Manshoon was a 16th-level mage. By the time of the FRA hardback, he was 19th level (I know about the lore-based explanations, i.e. that the 16-th level Manshoon was from an earlier Stasis Clone). The OGB did not contain that many 20+ level characters. Elminster was one. Khleben was one (interestingly, he was recommended to be at least 10 levels above the party's level). Another example are the Zulkirs in Dreams of the Red Wizards - Lauzoril was not sufficiently high in level to cast 9th level spells, for unstance (a "flaw" remedied by the time of The Unapproachable East).
Owesstaer has a point, I think: Wizards have the most to gain from living longer (the marginal increase from gaining a level as a mage are far better that those for fighters or rogues). It's also a safer way to gain XP. The only threat to a high-level wizard is another high-level wizard (or a similarly endowed big monster). A 50th level fighter can be brought down by a sufficient high number of ducks wielding knuckle-dusters :-) .
FR is also a magic-heavy setting, where wizards wield poltical power in a lot of places. I always got the impression that in Ed's Concept of the Realms, wizards (especially the high-level ones) care less about worldly power than those in the published realms do (see Larloch, for instance - there's enough threads on the web that focus on the question why Larloch just does not rule the Realms - he's evil, so he must want to!). A lot of the design seems to assume that evil powers want swag. A lot of evil powers are led by wizards. But evil cannot win easily. Therefore, it must be counterbalanced. Therefore there must be sufficient wizards fighting the evil wizards. I think that might be a bit simplistic.
Again, have a look at the Red Wizards. In Dreams, I got the impression that the Zulkirs were, on the whole, not necessarily the most powerful wizards in Thay, just the ones who could be bothered, or who just did not know any better than that Zulkirhoid was the pinnacle of the Thayan dungheap. The feeling I got was that most of the Red Wizards just wanted to pursue their own goals (involving a lot of "Art for Art's sake"), a d let the tedious business of dealing with the world to ambitious louts who did not know any better. By the Time of the Unapproachable East, I think that there was only a single Zulkir who was not 20+ level. |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 14:35:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Owesstaer
I think another reason for more high level mages than other classes is pure and simple: old age
Not only do mages have the possibility to exceed natural live-expectancy, but they actually even get better (Int increase during age categories) whereas warriors and rogues weaken even upon reaching middle age already.
This is EXACTLY it. Mages have a lot of ways to extend their lifespan, even without resorting to lichdom. Unless you're an elf like Drizzt or Starbrow, you don't have centuries to continuously improve your craft before age erases all your gains. On top of that, injuries can maim fighters and make it very difficult for them to retain their former dexterity, quickness, strength, etc. Plus, even the most powerful fighters can't wrap a ton of contingencies around themlseves so that even if they are near death, they get carried away to safety and healed. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 15:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Even 1-2 out of 10,000 seems like a lot when you consider the amount of power a mage of that level wields, and the obscene amount of XP required to actually get to that level. But perhaps a bunch of mages of that level sort of keep each other in check.
I wonder if Ed intended for there to be so many high level mages or if it just happened as others starting writing guidebooks.
Bear in mind that once they get to the upper levels, a lot of these mages are doing their "day to day" hunting on other planes. So, they may not be seen in the realms as much destroying because they're being forced to take the fight elsewhere.
That is one thing that is shown, but not portrayed as much as it should be possibly. This is of course why Elminster and the Chosen would rather have local people on site for keeping tabs on what's happening back home while they are out and about fighting extraplanar threats. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 20:30:41
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| Great points, all. In my home campaign, I think I will lower the levels of most of these mages to around 10-15. And I'll probably make Wish a 10th level spell. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 22:19:23
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Great points, all. In my home campaign, I think I will lower the levels of most of these mages to around 10-15. And I'll probably make Wish a 10th level spell.
To what end? It's not really a factor unless your PCs are interacting with them, and even then, unless the PCs actively need high-level magic cast, it's still not a factor.
And that's assuming that these high-level folks are around and willing to talk to the PCs, anyway. |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2016 : 23:35:57
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Partially just because I like the highest level spells to be rare. I don't mind that there's an abundance of magic in the Realms, that's part of it's charm. But I'd prefer to have it be an abundance of low-level magic. Also, my players aren't really going to buy the excuse that every high-level magic in every town is off traveling the Planes.
Also, that way NPCs don't have as much access to the really powerful stuff.
Overall, these high-level mages don't add anything to the game (especially if they are all off traveling the Planes), so why include them other than because some writer added them in at one point? I'm not referring to the likes of Khelben, Szass Tam, and the other major players. More so the random 19th level mages that seem to be all over the place according to Volo's Guides. |
Edited by - valarmorgulis on 03 Jan 2016 23:37:56 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2016 : 04:58:42
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Partially just because I like the highest level spells to be rare. I don't mind that there's an abundance of magic in the Realms, that's part of it's charm. But I'd prefer to have it be an abundance of low-level magic. Also, my players aren't really going to buy the excuse that every high-level magic in every town is off traveling the Planes.
Also, that way NPCs don't have as much access to the really powerful stuff.
Overall, these high-level mages don't add anything to the game (especially if they are all off traveling the Planes), so why include them other than because some writer added them in at one point? I'm not referring to the likes of Khelben, Szass Tam, and the other major players. More so the random 19th level mages that seem to be all over the place according to Volo's Guides.
If they're in the Volo's Guides, that "some writer" was Ed himself.
I personally like have high-level mages scattered around. It's a high magic setting -- of course there are going to be high-level mages around. And even if there is one in every city, that's what, less than a hundred total out of a continent that is home to millions? I'm kinda surprised there aren't more, actually.
But all that aside, if you're not going to be using these NPCs, then why waste the time and effort of changing them?
Another thing to keep in mind: characters are what makes a setting come alive. Just because these guys have some high-level spells doesn't mean they are always packing nothing but combat spells, it doesn't mean that they personally see to every issue that they decide to act in, and it doesn't mean they're going to do anything other than follow their own interests, which may not involve anyone else at all.
A lot of the more powerful NPCs Ed creates are following their own particular agendas, and they usually don't have much to do with PCs other than to aim them in particular directions. If you have to do anything at all with these guys, that's the right approach -- otherwise, they're more than likely simply not in the picture for the PCs to have to worry about. Let them stay in the background and only shine a light on them if you need to. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2016 : 05:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Partially just because I like the highest level spells to be rare. I don't mind that there's an abundance of magic in the Realms, that's part of it's charm. But I'd prefer to have it be an abundance of low-level magic. Also, my players aren't really going to buy the excuse that every high-level magic in every town is off traveling the Planes.
Also, that way NPCs don't have as much access to the really powerful stuff.
Overall, these high-level mages don't add anything to the game (especially if they are all off traveling the Planes), so why include them other than because some writer added them in at one point? I'm not referring to the likes of Khelben, Szass Tam, and the other major players. More so the random 19th level mages that seem to be all over the place according to Volo's Guides.
High level mages generally have other piles of work than dealing with adventurers. Advising kings, making private demiplanes, crafting magical items to make cash, hunting down rare scrolls and rumors of artifacts and so on.
The issue is less that there are high level mages and more that the designers didn't really realize how hilariously overpowered spellcasting is. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2016 : 09:43:53
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Consider this:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Just because these guys have some high-level spells doesn't mean they are always packing nothing but combat spells, it doesn't mean that they personally see to every issue that they decide to act in, and it doesn't mean they're going to do anything other than follow their own interests, which may not involve anyone else at all.
And this:
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
High level mages generally have other piles of work than dealing with adventurers. Advising kings, making private demiplanes, crafting magical items to make cash, hunting down rare scrolls and rumors of artifacts and so on.
Wizards not necessarily are putting their lives at risk to achieve higher levels, unlike warriors, rogues and most priests - who put themselves at risk to promote or defend their power's ideals. So, a wizard can spend years, decades, and even centuries (if they use the above mentioned longevity extenders, as cited by Owesstaer) in research, while fighters have to be constantly fighting to improve their fight ability, and eventually will fall or be crippled (as mentioned by Lilianviaten). So, the answer would be the very nature of the classes and abilities sought, IMHO.
Besides, I'm just not sure about every high level mage having "wish" in his or her repertoire, my solution maybe would be the rarity of some spells. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 04 Jan 2016 09:44:52 |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2016 : 15:34:47
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| I've noticed a lack of epic level (20+ by 2ED terms) rogues in the Realms. You'd think among the long-lived races like elves there'd be a few. The rogues must live dangerous lives because I don't think I can name 3 rogues listed at 20+ in the 2nd edition realms books. The Cult of the Dragon leaders were all 20+ fighter, cleric, mage (dead now) except the rogue who was in his mid-teens I believe, for 1 example. The leader of the rogue guild in Amn was very high level, but drawing a blank on others... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2016 : 15:40:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I've noticed a lack of epic level (20+ by 2ED terms) rogues in the Realms. You'd think among the long-lived races like elves there'd be a few. The rogues must live dangerous lives because I don't think I can name 3 rogues listed at 20+ in the 2nd edition realms books. The Cult of the Dragon leaders were all 20+ fighter, cleric, mage (dead now) except the rogue who was in his mid-teens I believe, for 1 example. The leader of the rogue guild in Amn was very high level, but drawing a blank on others...
That's because the high level ones are good enough to keep a low profile. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2016 : 18:27:43
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Fighters fight things for a living. Combat is dangerous, fights to the death involve a death.
Rogues survive by opportunism and theft and grift and exploitation. They ignore laws, they are criminals or undesirables or annoyances, they anger people, they have slippery ethics and hide behind deceptions, fat and lazy rogues don't tend to get far, quick and lean rogues are forced to constantly live on the edge.
Accumulating enough XP to reach highest levels requires constant risk. As mentioned above, any idiot with a sword can put an end to your adventuring career.
Wizards can sit around in labs and libraries, researching and dabbling away. Killing dragons might be worth more XP, but hardly necessary unless dragon parts are needed for spell components. Besides, some burly fighter can always be convinced to tank the dragon for you. Most priests have it even easier, they have the protection of a deity, an organized clergy, and the resources of all their faithful to draw upon.
As Wooly says, mages are sexier so they get all the attention. But I think that's only the surface of a deeper problem:
Magic in the Realms is not dangerous, it is not mysterious, it carries no real risk. Sure, there's plenty of stories about how magic can be abused or twisted or a corrupting influence. But in the game rules magic is entirely tame and predictable and reproducible. Any competent spellcaster can expect consistent results from spellcasting. Things would be different if there were a real price to paid for magic. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Jan 2016 18:37:45 |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2016 : 21:31:10
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| That's not just magic in the Realms, that's magic in D&D. I agree with what a lot of people are saying as to why mages might on the whole be higher level. But, I want high-level magic to be rare and special, and so I'll be making some changes in my home campaign. To me, high magic does not mean high-level magic. It just means that there's a lot of magic around. A world populated entirely by 1st-level mages would be high magic in my opinion. |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 01:26:18
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That's pretty low fantasy.
I mean, sure, that screws over casters who don't get their entire spell list with a new spell level, but that's not stopping the cleric, or druid, or dread necromancer; all of which get access to every spell on their spell list. That's not going into the fact that the most broken spell options are all bog-standard PHB spells.
Let's be fair, wish isn't exactly needed to break the game. Yes, it's powerful, but you can get more consistent results with chain-gating solars. See, the issue is less that there are many high level mages and more that PC wizards - and NPC wizards played competently - effortlessly break the game long before wish comes into the picture. |
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valarmorgulis
Learned Scribe
112 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 03:00:26
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Game balance isn't something I'm speaking to at all. I'm really only talking about the flavor of a campaign. Anyhow, seems like we are just talking past each other at this point and aren't going to agree on this.
Thanks for contributing your viewpoints though! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 04:00:24
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quote:
Originally posted by valarmorgulis
Game balance isn't something I'm speaking to at all. I'm really only talking about the flavor of a campaign. Anyhow, seems like we are just talking past each other at this point and aren't going to agree on this.
Thanks for contributing your viewpoints though!
I like your idea of lower level characters. It allows, at some point, for your party (if it gets high level) to be THE people to go to for help!
It makes it easy for you to make adventures for them with the explanation that there is nobody else to do it.
From a time when a 6th level Fighter was one of the MAJOR commanders of the Zhentilar, to a time when Gods are walking in the streets...I'll take ye "Ol' Grey Box" levels. The "mighty" then were not 20th plus level...and it was nice for mid-level characters to feel like they were really important and not just the crumbs at the bottom of the adventurer social system. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2016 : 18:56:51
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The most obvious way to limit high-level magic in the game is to impose an experience penalty on spellcasters. Although the overwhelming majority of players will complain about such heavy-handed and arbitrary manipulations, they will argue relentlessly that D&D is already "balanced". An argument for another scroll.
A more subtle way to limit high-level magic (yet still allow some saturation of low-level magics) is to make spells and spellbooks incredibly rare finds. The 2E FRA offered some tables which treated spells something like treasure and grouped them into Common, Uncommon, and Rare categories - all the real "game-breaking" stuff (like wish) was quite difficult to obtain - just because it's listed in the PHB doesn't automatically mean it's easily available to any character. Some of my best campaigns used modified versions of these tables which severely limited access to any truly powerful spells, along with some house rules which made deciphering another wizard's spellbooks a very lengthy and expensive undertaking ... and the PC spellcasters ended up researching tons and tons of unique "signature" spells. Every magical battle was special because every magical adversary was equally unique. Every magical monster was a serious threat. Every magical item was greatly treasured. And every high-level fighter or thief armed with magical items was greatly feared. |
[/Ayrik] |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2016 : 02:44:06
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Nerfing spellcasters is a double-edged sword in many ways. The DMG assumes that you're decked out in magic bling enough to buy a small nation by pre-epic, and due to the scaling of monster stats you actually do need the magical bling you get per WBL rules to be successful. Arbitrarily nerfing a caster's rate of experience nerfs the entire party, and does nothing to underscore the fact that the common PHB spells are the ones that actually break the game. If your player can't contribute in any way because you've nerfed his rate of experience and made him lag behind the rest of the party, what impetus does he have to not simply scrap his character and then building an optimized fighter or whatever and start doing 5000 damage per round?
I see mostly old-school DMs assuming wizards and sorcerers prepare things like fireball and lightning bolt, but in practice most caster characters seldom go for evocation spells. It's sort of like how people assume that arcane necromancy is all about animating undead; any player worth his salt will tell you that animate dead is a downtime spell and that necromancy is mainly about debuffing and SoD. Hell, just look at wish; it just seems powerful until you realize that a wizard can gate in solars. Hell, it's the most common utility spells that tend to be used, like grease, sleep, color spray and so on. That's not even getting into things like the druid; enjoy having the druid wildshape into a hydra with his pet fighter that's better than the fighter.
If you really want to make spellcasting balanced, just ban CoDzilla, druids, psions, archivists, erudites and wizards and let the players choose from the specialized spellcasting classes like dread necromancer, warmages, beguilers and so on, and/or refluff them, like dread necromancers scaling off Int, and warmages getting some duskblade class features.
Or just run an E6 game. |
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Do only mages reach the highest levels?
