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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 05:03:37
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For a long time I've wanted to run a very long and drawn out campaign set in the Bloodstone Lands. I wanted it to be inspired by the Bloodstone Adventure modules. I know (roughly) how I want it to start, and (roughly) how I want it to end.
This thread exists for brainstorming purposes. It is here for me to bounce ideas off folks, look for inspiration, and get some feedback.
Here are some of my random thoughts:
- I want to begin the campaign narrowly focused on a city or village. Something to set the tone of Damara. I want the player characters to be connected to one of the noble families. From there the campaign starts to zoom out, and the players will start to uncover the secret cult of Orcus operating in Damara. They will discover the true nature of Zhengyi the Witchking, as a powerful servant of Orcus. They will unite Damara under their banner, defeat Zhengyi, and in the end they will also defeat Orcus himself.
- However, I am also throwing a twist into the traditional story. I am having one of the central allies of the players be a mortal Velsharoon. He will aid them in defeating Zhengyi and Orcus, but in the end will flee with Myrkul's Crown of Horns, the Wand of Orcus, and the Phylactery of Mellifleur. He then uses all three of these artifacts in a ritual in the Plains of Purple Dust to ascend to divinity.
- I am drawing inspiration from a lot of writing done by Sleyvas over the years as it pertains to Velsharoon and Zhengyi. Specifically as it relates to their history as Red Wizards of Thay.
- I've pretty much committed myself to re-writing large chunks of the lore for the Cold Lands (Damara, Vaasa, and Narfell), Impiltur, and the Vast.
- I know I am already basically hybridizing concepts for the Vast from 4E drawing on inspiration from Vesperin and Elturgard.
- I am envisioning three closely aligned nations united under the rule of the Triad (Elturgard / the Vast, Damara, and Impiltur). The nations are independent, but they are all theocracies that recognize the Triad as the official state religion.
- I am considering having the events take place post-Time of Troubles. I am undecided.
- I am considering downplaying and making Tyr and Helm regional deities in conflict with the Triad rather than have them killed 4E or ToT style.
- I really like the Triad being Torm, Bahamut, and Ilmater. I am thinking about adjusting portfolios for these three deities as follows:
Torm: Duty, Justice, Laws, Loyalty, and Obedience
Bahamut: Guardianship, Metallic Dragons, Valor, and Wisdom
Ilmater: Dignity, Healing, Martyrdom, Mercy, Perseverance, Succor, and Zeal
- This does not have to be the portfolios that are widely accepted in the Realms for these deities, only in this region. I am considering having the Triad be considered a heresy by at least some other groups dedicated to Bahamut and Ilmater.
- I like this being the version of the Triad, because it works well with another heresy that I like, which is the Dark Triad. It has Bane, Tiamat, and Loviatar as being its members. It fits perfectly, as each of them is in direct opposition to the aforementioned deities. I also love the concept of religious art that depicts Torm flying out on the back of Bahamut to do battle against Bane, while Bane is flying to meet him in the air on the back of Tiamat who is in chains.
My biggest obstacle at the moment is answering these two questions:
What is the main goal of Orcus and Zhengyi? What are they trying to achieve? I want it to be something believable other than 'muahahaha because I am evil'.
Why do people turn to the worship of Orcus? This is a major stumbling block for me. This is a demon lord. Not only that, he's a demon lord of undeath. So, aside from those who are completely insane, why and how do you end up in his cult? Once again, I want something believable other than 'muahahaha because I am evil'.
Does anyone have any ideas on the last two questions or any comments, suggestions, or thoughts on the random ideas I tossed out earlier?
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 07:15:23
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Funny you should mention this. I recently started updating and Realmsifying the H-modules and developing FR9 into a campaign setting.
I also thought Bahamut needed to play more of a role, and I like your Triad. The Dark Triad is interesting -- is this your idea, or have I missed it in canon somewhere?
I think your two questions are good ones. I need a workable answer for the first one too. The second one, in my opinion, can rest on Orcus being misinterpreted/masked. He doesn't have to masquerade as a deity, per se, but none/few of his followers know his true nature. Alternatively, some may know that he's a powerful demon and just have a different understanding of demons in general.
In our world, there's an interpretation of Satan as being simply in opposition to God, or more specifically Christianity -- I just heard about it in passing, so I don't know the specifics, but the useful detail is that definitions of good and evil are subjective. Someone who dislikes Christianity or God because of the damage that's been done in those names can like the idea of something which opposes it... and that doesn't necessarily involve hell, damnation, or anything else.
I think it's very reasonable for a percentage of Damarans to have a negative take on the Triad (justice is subjective too, and LG individuals and churches are notorious for imposing their will, often by force), and also see that the Dark Triad is clearly evil, and thus need another alternative. Orcus can be an opposing voice to both, and to all other gods for that matter. He needs an innocuous alias (because any sage could speak up and inform everyone that Orcus is a bad dude) and his followers need to keep the bloody sacrifices and undead hidden from the lower ranks and the followers who build respectable churches in which to worship him. The commoners give the cult legitimacy, which in turn enables the cult to have an overt presence in cities and towns and probably even to advise local rulers alongside other religious folks, so it's in the cult's best interest to appeal to commoners. Tithing increases the benefits to the cult.
So the solution is that from Damara's perspective Orcus is not a demon lord, and he has nothing to do with undeath. He can be a deity of rational thought and even protection, as he opposes the "blind faith" of the Triad and the "muahaha we're evil" of the Dark Triad.
Orcus' motive might also be easily answered. He has an inkling of what Asmodeus is up to, and wants to become a god... so he's seeking larger numbers of worshipers. It doesn't matter whether his "church" knows what he really stands for... it's the strength of their faith, and the zeal with which they invoke his name (or his alias as long as its unique), that may deify him. And even if it doesn't actually work that way in your campaign world, it's enough for Orcus to believe that it works that way.
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 13 Dec 2015 07:19:28 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 10:33:43
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I also thought Bahamut needed to play more of a role, and I like your Triad. The Dark Triad is interesting -- is this your idea, or have I missed it in canon somewhere?
It is roughly half and half. 4th Edition made a lot of changes to the pantheon, obviously, and two of the changes was making Loviatar be Bane's consort and making Tiamat serve him. They had a bunch of other deities serving him as well, such as the goblin deities and Hoar. They also axed Tyr and Helm, and placed Torm at the head of the Triad.
I was doing things over in the Old Empires, especially in Threskel, and the worship of Bane there was very important and how it related back to the worship of Bane in the Moonsea region. I really did not want them falling under Fzoul's influence, as the canon NPC in the region (Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug) is so much more awesome. That's when I remembered what 4E had done, and took the germ of that idea and ran with it and came up with the Dark Triad concept.
What I like about it is the fact that Bane and Torm are very strong enemies in canon, as are the other deities mentioned. There is some beautiful symmetry there. I envision the holy symbol for the Triad being an upright triangle, and the holy symbol for the dark Triad being an inverted triangle. When you place them together you get a six pointed star. I imagine there is some hidden meaning there, or at least I'd hint at it to screw with the PC's if they notice it.
Obviously, the majority of Tiamat's worshipers reject the heresy, and they aggressively go after Banites who promote it. It is mostly only popular in the Old Empires. Likewise, I am thinking that the Triad may also be a heresy, established sometime around 700 DR, which gained enough traction to launch the Triad Crusade in 729 DR to fight the Scaled Horde in Impiltur.
The leader of that crusade was Sarshel Elethlim who was a Paladin and was crowned King of Impiltur in 732 DR. I'm thinking of saying that Saint Sollars the Twice Martyred will be the "founder" of the Triad. He is the one who came up with the heresy, wrote a holy book, did some awesome things (hence his title the Twice Martyred), and the Monastery of the Yellow Rose would have been established in his name. It may even be the official seat of the Triad itself, sort of like the Saint Peter's Basilica of the Triad.
I'd have to move forward the date it was established, though. However, that shouldn't be a problem. I don't think they built it. I am going to say it was originally constructed by Giants, then taken over by Dwarves who were likely connected to Sarphil. However, it was eventually abandoned even by them after Sarphil fell, and was claimed by various unsavory sorts after that. Saint Sollars saw the massive castle/keep like complex in a vision, and he saw it being corrupted by a demon. He led an assault to destroy the demon, but the forces threatened to overwhelm them. In a desperate effort to turn the tide of battle and save those that followed him, he threw himself at the powerful demon. He grappled with the demon until he managed to force it and himself off the edge of the keep. He basically pulled a Gandalf 'YOU SHALL NOT PASS!' move with the demon. They both fell to their death. There is a great deal of mourning when they discover that he is dead, and he is laid in wake at the Keep which is to be named in his honor. However, three days later numerous people have a dream vision of Saint Sollars being gently carried from the heavens in the arms of Ilmater, and the next thing they know Saint Sollars has risen from the dead (his first Martyrdom). Word of the miracle spreads, and faith in the Triad grows.
Saint Sollars (as well as other Saints and important leaders of the Triad) are laid to rest in the Monastery of the Yellow Rose. The Monastery is built high up on a mountain and is insanely defensible. There are numerous tunnels dug into the mountain by the Dwarves leading down. It appears as if they were mining there. No one is sure how deep they go, and they are not completely explored as many shafts are unstable and dangerous to enter. The priests have sealed most of them off, though others are actively used for various things. I'm thinking that they go all the way down into the Underdark, and there is likely a Duergar colony somewhere far below.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
I think your two questions are good ones. I need a workable answer for the first one too.
The obvious answer here is to somehow link things back to Narfell. Orcus was big during the times of Narfell, and even had half-fiend children of his sitting on the Throne. I am thinking Zhengyi is somehow linked to that... however, I can't figure out what they'd want. What is their overall objective and goal? Re-establishing Narfell isn't ambitious enough, and it has to be something that is going to take a lot of time. PC's need to go from starting characters to having the ability to face down Orcus and Zhengyi in a fight.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
The second one, in my opinion, can rest on Orcus being misinterpreted/masked. He doesn't have to masquerade as a deity, per se, but none/few of his followers know his true nature. Alternatively, some may know that he's a powerful demon and just have a different understanding of demons in general.
In our world, there's an interpretation of Satan as being simply in opposition to God, or more specifically Christianity -- I just heard about it in passing, so I don't know the specifics, but the useful detail is that definitions of good and evil are subjective. Someone who dislikes Christianity or God because of the damage that's been done in those names can like the idea of something which opposes it... and that doesn't necessarily involve hell, damnation, or anything else.
I am thinking his cult is secret and hidden, and that no one really knows about it. The cult is behind destabilizing the entire region, because it needs the region weak to prepare its plans. The last thing they want and need are the Paladins of the Triad knocking on their door. Zhengyi is pulling the strings, but he is doing the bidding of Orcus. I am thinking that Zhengyi is somehow imprisoned or trapped in the Castle, which somehow is both in Toril and in Thanatos at the same time. Zhengyi was imprisoned in Thanatos, and mortal cultists of Orcus were able to break part of the imprisonment holding Zhengyi--allowing the Castle to shift back onto Toril. However, Zhengyi still cannot travel far from the Castle. Zhengyi has the Wand of Orcus, and is using it to create hordes of undead minions.
As for why they follow him... well, I have part of that problem solved, I think.
Since I am setting things post-Time of Troubles, I will have Garagos slay Vaprak, the giant deity of Ogres and Trolls. After slaying Vaprak, he appears before a powerful Ogre Chieftain in Thar in a dream vision. He reveals the location of Vorbyx's Hammer, which the Chieftain locates. This hammer is important to the Ogres of Thar, as it signals who will be the next Tharkul and unite their people. Vaprak being dead, however, means the hammer cannot be used. It has to be re-baptized in blood and sanctified in the name of Garagos to be blessed, which the Chieftain also accomplishes. Garagos then blesses the Chieftain in a similar manner that Vaprak once blessed the previous Tharkuls, and revealed the way to have his people similarly blessed. (Basically making them more intelligent, more competent, and more deadly than the average ogre.)
He finds his way into Vaasa with his tribe, and arrives to begin uniting the Ogres there as well as the Orcs, Goblins, and other monstrous races under his banner as well as the humans that live in the region. This is when they encounter the Cultists of Orcus who have already freed Zhengyi from his imprisonment in the Abyssal layer of Thanatos. The Ogres cannot hope to stand against Zhengyi, but it doesn't matter as an offer of alliance is made. In exchange for their assistance and protection, Zhengyi will supply them with all the undead soldiers they could ever hope to ask for. Those that refuse to bend the knee to the Tharkul in life will do so in undeath.
So, you have the Tharkul subduing the various tribes of Vaasa and establishing a kingdom there with the aid of the cult of Orcus. The Tharkul is operating under the banner of Garagos, and has his own ambitions separate from that of the cult. The cult uses him as a means to launch their military attack on Damara, which ultimately leads to the death of the King, and the stuff that follows--setting the stage for the campaign.
I need to review the NPC's of the modules again (it's been awhile), but it's at this point that I need to start lifting some names and seeing where they might fit.
So, this is one problem solved. There is no need to wave the banner of Orcus around when using armies, because they don't have one themselves.
This means I only need to figure out reasons for people to secretly turn to the worship of Orcus.
I think part of it can certainly be front groups like you brought up. In other words, people join cults, fraternities, and other organizations without knowing their true purpose. I imagine this is likely how most demon cults spread their worship. Which, in turn, I think is all the more reason that the Triad might want to crack down on such secret cults, clubs, and organizations. So, there is the element of some people just not realizing what they are apart of.
However, there has to be a core group of people who know EXACTLY what they are doing, and EXACTLY why they are doing it. These are the people who know the truth. Why do they follow Orcus?
Some, I believe, may follow him out of fear. They know what they serve, they hate Orcus and what he stands for, and yet they serve him anyway. Why? Because they want to be spared. Perhaps the cult is an apocalyptic cult, and they genuinely believe that the end is near. They have... seen... things... Horrible things. Things that no mortal eyes should ever see, and they are convinced that the only way they will be spared is to throw themselves at the feet of Orcus, serve as best they can, and hope for mercy. Perhaps they joined one of the aforementioned fraternities or other organizations out of ignorance, and then over time... they just found themselves in too deep. The cult has information on them, stuff that could ruin them completely--not to mention when the Triad finds out that they've been aiding the cult they'll end up with their head chopped off or dangling from the nearest tree. So, they hate what they do, and they hate Orcus. However, they serve because it is the only thing they know how to do.
Others, I believe, may serve him out of hatred. You mentioned how some may hate the establishment, particularly the Triad. The world is filled with injustice, and not even the servants of the Triad are pure. They know this. They see it. They've been screwed by it, and now they hate them for it. They want vengeance, but they are powerless alone... so they have turned to darker powers, ancient powers, the powers that once ruled lands not so far away long ago. They closed their eyes and called out for the dark powers that once ruled the land, that hate the Triad and the people as much as they do... and it heard them.
Still others, I believe, may serve for more mundane reasons such as power. They joined this or that club, organization, or fraternity hoping to gain some type of advantage. It has paid off quite well, and they are hungry for more. When they learned about what they truly served, in the beginning, it's true, they were very afraid. However, over time even the most horrible can become the mundane and the mind adjusts. They are too deep in to go back now, anyway. Besides, when Orcus rules the world, they will be but a small step under him. These people mistakenly believe that Orcus actually cares about what happens to them, and they delude themselves into believing that they are actually valuable to him instead of just his pawns. Orcus laughs at their mortal arrogance, and manipulates them toward their own destruction accordingly.
Finally, I believe, others may be drawn to serve Orcus out of despair. Orcus has the power over life, death, and so much more. When you live a wretched life as an outcast or part of the downtrodden masses, it can sometimes appear that the Gods don't hear your prayers. Orcus is the glimmer of hope. He is the promise that you can be so much more than your current station and status in life. He promises you that if you eat of his flesh and drink of his blood, that not only will he grant you boons and blessings, but he will also grant you an eternal life. Orcus listens to you in the way that the Gods never did... and of course, even if you wanted to turn back now, you're in too deep.
I think this is how the cult must function. As I write all of this and think about it, I am thinking that Orcus and Zhengyi's goal is something truly horrible. They are trying to merge Thanatos with Toril. In essence, this would give Orcus the power to challenge Ao himself, and reshape the world in his image. Just as Zhengyi's Castle is coterminous with Thanatos, the goal is to create magical rifts that gradually spread, which do the same thing.
This is the apocalyptic event that the cult of Orcus is preparing for, and why some people believe the end is near. This is why Zhengyi was imprisoned (perhaps with the aid of Velsharoon?) in the first place. He was attempting to do this once before and had to be stopped. Zhengyi believes that when Toril and Thanatos are fully coterminous Orcus will reshape the world in his image, and he will rule this world in the name of his master.
Perhaps Zhengyi was one of the powerful Nentyarch's of Narfell. I may have to screw around with the Narfell timeline a bit, but I don't think that would break anything in canon since there is so little information out there.
In short, Zhengyi and Velsharoon know each other because they both assisted in helping the Red Wizards rebel against Mulhorand. Velsharoon is either a Imaskari survivor (who eventually fled to Halruaa), or he is a native from Halruaa. In either case, he played an important and significant role in the formation of the Red Wizards along with Zhengyi who was a Nar. Velsharoon is a treacherous servant of Orcus while Zhengyi is fully dedicated to the cause. Zhengyi became a lich during his life with the aid of Orcus, while Velsharoon has been fighting back becoming undead--for fear of what would happen should he fall into the clutches of Orcus. Velsharoon sustains himself through draining the life essence of others--literally robbing them of their youth. However, he has done this for so long that the magic can barely sustain him. He is reaching the end, and he must either accept his inevitable fate as a mortal and embrace death (and fall into the clutches of Orcus), embrace undeath (and fall into the clutches of Orcus), or find a way to transcend both--in short, seek out divinity.
Thus, Velsharoon is earnestly helping the PC's. He genuinely hopes that they destroy Orcus and put an end to the plot. However, he has to keep everything about his past hidden. He has his own motives that, if the players knew what he was up too, they would seek to stop him.
I think things are becoming clearer now. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 13 Dec 2015 10:47:27 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 17:23:34
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Nice work. Sounds like a helluva campaign.  |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 18:29:28
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Just thought I'd mention that I did a fair bit of work expanding the bloodstone lands (mostly Vaasa though) in my alternate dimensions issue 1-4. It did deal with what interest the evil organisations have in Vaasa and uses a bit of 4e lore. I also tried to expand the history beyond the 10 dates we have.
Don't know if it will prove useful but it might give you a base
I'm reading it now. I like that you've included Telos in all of this, as it gives a nice progression post Zhengyi to the Warlock Knights of Vaasa. I don't know if I'll go exactly the same direction as you did, but I think it is smart to link Zhengyi to Telos.
In the canon adventure, Orcus is using strange pools of mercury to try and enter the Realms. Instead of strange pools of mercury, I am thinking that Zhengyi is using the strange metal that Telos makes.
One thing that I notice about the lore, which I also notice you don't address in your lore is the speed at which the Great Glacier melts. The Great Glacier is HUGE, and melting enough to reveal Vaasa, Damara, and upper Narfell should take a long time. I imagine that sea levels would rise as well, devastating coastal cities--particularly in the Moonsea and Sea of Fallen Stars regions. The speed at which it moves would have created insane apocalyptic flooding in the region.
The speed can be accounted for by saying it was melted magically. However, I think the melt has to begin sooner and still take place over a long period of time. We can sort of hand wave away the sea level rise, 'Sure it rose some, but only by like a foot or so. It also happened over the course of a hundred years, so it wasn't extremely sudden.' The big issue are the floods, by stretching it out over a century or so, we can sort of reduce the devastating impact of those. Throw in some powerful druids and I think its manageable.
I may draw inspiration from your NPC creation of Higenzi. I am unsure where I will go with it as of yet, but I like the idea of an ancient Nar guiding the formation of Damara. However, I am thinking that she is not connected to Orcus. There appears to have been a lot of conflict in Narfell itself between various factions who worshiped and served different demons. There was a period where Graz'zt cult ruled, for example. I am unsure who she serves as of yet. I'll need to think on it, but there is a seed of an idea there.
I am also thinking about drawing some inspiration from your Order of the Fallen Princes. Though I may take it in a slightly different direction. I am unsure. Once again, I feel that there is a good seed of an idea there, and the region needs organizations of its own. I need to come up with the organizations of the Triad first, so that I know how the Order of Fallen Princes relates back to them.
I am going to also look through the timeline you created more closely, to see what I can use, though I may adjust dates as necessary as I modify canon dates as well. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 20:11:10
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I'm just psyched that someone read my stuff and found it passable, never mind useful. It was my very first attempt at reinterpreting a region and so I tried to stick to canon as much as possible and then inject new life into the bits between canon, but using canon as a basis
I'm not sure whether to reveal to you what I had in mind for Higenzi or not (I think I mention the answer in issue 4 or 5), it was my very basic attempt at an easter egg. Suffice to say Higenzi is not what she appears, but the clues are there in her writeup as to who she is (although I don't think many people liked my idea).
I must have missed the bit about Orcus using the pools of mercury to manifest on Faerun. It does sound ideal that they should be pools of the waste of Telos (probably his solid waste, the liquid waste formed magical springs in the swamp lands).
I think Telos and the Warlock Knights were the only thing I liked in the whole of 4e, I just didn't like how he suddenly appeared and the explanation was that he fell from the sky. His presence in the distant past seemed like an excellent explanation for why Vaasa is such a wasteland while Damara is not, especially since Vaasa was probably part of Ostoria long ago and likely wasn't wasteland back then.
Telos then seemed like an excellent reason for people to want to fight over Vaasa which was otherwise a mineral rich but barren wasteland. So I made Zhengyi and just about everything else in the region revolve around the exploitation of Telos and his near limitless potential for power.
I like the Bahamut and Tiamat involvement in the triad and dark triad because I had long wondered why Bahamut and Tiamat were present in the Bloodstone Lands at all. Then I found a few passages in the old grey box that classified Bahamut and Tiamat as quasi deities, i.e. actual physical beings of immense power, but not gods (something akin to demigods).
So I theorised that sometime following the 1000 year war between the dragons and giants, that Bahamut and Tiamat established themselves in the north lands and fought a war in this region long in the distant past. That is why a portal to Avernus exists in the bottom of Castle Perilous (it would be foolish for Zhengyi to create a portal to the one place where his artefact could be destroyed, but building a castle atop an existing portal to such a place is sensible because he can protect it and limit access).
So for me Bahamut and Tiamat would be part of the triad and dark triad only in the Bloodstone Lands, but I do not follow the typical line for faerunian religions and I reckon they are much more fractured than described (plus I don't have gods talking directly to worshippers, that's just an unworkable idea).
As for the great glacier. I had long ago decided that it was not formed in -2550 as stated in several sources. The lore in Giantcraft places its formation around the time of the 1000 year war so I use -25500 DR as its creation date. It has since waxed and waned in size and thickness. It was at its thickest around -4000 DR in early Netheril. The expansion of Netheril almost eliminated its westerly arm known as the High Ice. Various other effects recently have decreased the size of the glacier (magnetic wobbles of Toril's axis, the magical weavings of the elves of Rilithar, and just natural global warming).
The centre of the great glacier sits across a massive inlet in the northern coast of Faerun so its melting will result in the destruction of Novularond but otherwise I don't believe it would affect highland areas such as Vaasa.
I reckoned the great glacier melting was a very long process from -3000 DR onwards (with the occasional centuries long period of refreezing along the way). Such a gradual thaw had no discernible effect other than to gradually reveal more and more of Narfell (its northern stretches were covered in glacier as well), Damara and eventually Vaasa. That's why Feldrin Bloodfeathers had to drive the Nar out of Damara when he first conquered it because they had gradually drifted west to settle the land as it became unfrozen.
If it were just me, I'd stick to the Triad religions as they are and then make Bahamut a new member only in the Bloodstone Lands. It has the effect of tying his presence more strongly to the region (something I tried to do with the history of Damara). I would also keep the god stuff out of it and stick only to religions. Its easier to think of things in terms of people instead of deities.
The triad religions band together for mutual cooperation (Ilmater's church is not so good at military operations whereas Tyr and Torm's church are bound strictly by the rule of law, together they can achieve more). Bahamut's church strongly complements the three and in such a difficult region it makes sense for his church to have a formal alliance with the other three but the traditional triad would have seniority because the three traditional members are more powerful. Nonetheless the devotion of Damara's King to Bahamut places it in a much stronger position, but royal and religious powers have always been problematic in real life so why should it be any less complex in Faerun.
Bane's return might have heralded a reforming of his triad of The Dark Gods (Bane, Bhaal, Myrkul). But of course Bhaal and Myrkul are dead and their churches have all but collapsed. So why would Bane's church not form alliances with his former allies/servants Talona and Loviatar. Tiamat could then join them as a natural foil to Bahamut and to even the balance of power between good and evil churches.
I would love to revisit the Bloodstone Lands and do a proper rewrite sourcebook style as it was a very first attempt and some things I would do differently now I'm sure.
And I'm conscious I have rambled on for several pages now so i'll stop, but I could talk Bloodstone Lands all day. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 23:00:18
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| I am currently working on Narfell and having them move away from the barbaric lifestyle to a return of the Narfell of old. I was kind of thinking about using the Rage of Demons plot to have one of the demon lords arrive in Narfell and resurrect the Nar Demonbinders. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
Edited by - Shadowsoul on 14 Dec 2015 23:16:56 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2015 : 21:27:49
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I think Orcus is out to become a god, plain and simple. Your timeframe is perfect. Myrkull has fallen, Cyric does not appeal to his former worshipers, and when Kelemvor appears he makes things worse by being a God of Death who hates undead. The Realms is ripe for a God of the Undead. So Orcus needs power and influence to claim his Godhood.
I've been trying to think of ways to get the common folk to worship Orcus. I think that those who choose to worship Orcus do so in pursuit of power, plain and simple. For one reason or another they have made the decision that working with Undead and worshiping a Demon Prince are worth the power they gain in doing so. Perhaps they were the little guy, picked on by others, and they crave the strength to strike back. Perhaps they lack the morals to care about how yucky undead are or how evil Demon Princes are (Means to an end?). Perhaps they are Bat-Guano crazy. That's the kind of folks who worship Orcus.
If he were a Devil like Asmodeus I could maybe say he represents Order in the face of chaos, but Orcus is a Demon, he IS Chaos.
It occured to me that perhaps Orcus doesn't need to sway the common folk to gain power in the region. Perhaps the spread of Undeath itself is what feeds him the power he needs to become a God. A plauge of undeath is going to generate a LOT of fear, and that fear could possibly feed him as much as devotion would.
The big problem here is that I would hate for all this Cult of Orcus stuff to get in the way of your Holy/Unholy Trinity concept, which is truly awesome. What if the Unholy Trio are manipulating events, using Orcus and his cult to destabilize the area. Eventually they end up helping the PC's and Velsharoon ensure that Orcus fails so that Velsharoon can claim Divinity instead (owing many favors to the Unholy Three). Perhaps with this alliance with Bane and Loviatar, Tiamat won't be banished as she was in the original Bloodstone campaign. She could potentially pretend to take the fall in order to further the schemes of the Unholy Three in the long run.
I wonder if you could incorporate monsters into the campaign as servants of each of these 3 gods. Bane has Baneliches and Bane-Nagas, Tiamat has the numerous Dragon blooded critters that were introduced in 3rd edition. For Loviatar I was thinking Kytons might make excellent minions for the Mistress of Pain. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2015 : 23:17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So have you decided on or written down any more of this campaign. I'm interested to see what others do with the area.
I have it rolling around in my head at the moment. I need to put it down on paper. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2015 : 23:48:56
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
So have you decided on or written down any more of this campaign. I'm interested to see what others do with the area.
Yes, I am working on more lore. I have been doing two things at the moment. First, I've been going through Grand History of the Realms and organizing all of the known history of Narfell, the Vast, Impiltur, Damara, and Vaasa. I am then sort of working on hammering out timeline stuff. Second, I had to make a decision on what system I wanted to use. In the beginning I was going to use D&D 5E--I really like the new rules system, even more so than 3rd Edition. However, as I started to hammer things out I suddenly found myself sketching out house rules and published rule variants that I would use left and right. I realized that Burning Wheel has basically ruined me forever, and I decided to go slinking back. Although, I am creating a custom magic system using the Magic Burner supplement. The magic system will be unique to the Realms, based loosely on how it is currently described in canon, combined with the flavor elements that I've employed over the years. I am roughly 15% done, but I got side tracked as I had a real life deadline on a project that needed to be completed by tomorrow. That project is now complete, and I now have free time once more to return to this project.
Making the unique magic system for the Realms is important, as it will have a huge influence on what is possible in the Campaign and will shape how the various clerics of different gods work. The core mechanic for religion in Burning Wheel is Faith, and it just doesn't work well for the Realms at all thematically. I mostly like what I have so far, and once I have a working draft, I will share it. I am thinking that this might be Thursday, but it could be as late as Friday--ideally sooner, but real life is getting in the way.
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
I think Orcus is out to become a god, plain and simple. Your timeframe is perfect. Myrkull has fallen, Cyric does not appeal to his former worshipers, and when Kelemvor appears he makes things worse by being a God of Death who hates undead. The Realms is ripe for a God of the Undead. So Orcus needs power and influence to claim his Godhood.
I like this idea a lot. It is a bit more logical than what I was going for originally. Myrkul is dead. The space is open. Kelemvor may be welcoming to some of Myrkul's clergy, but obviously those who were more dedicated to undeath and necromancy are shunned as enemies of the faith. This could be one of the ways Orcus is picking up followers--former servants of Myrkul who need a new god.
This is also one of the ways that I can bring the Crown of Horns into play, which was something I was unsure how to do. Orcus will want it.
My basic theory was that Velsharoon, once he ascends, picks up many of the former necromancers that served Myrkul and those that once served Orcus as well. I really want to make Velsharoon a more worthy and interesting deity, sort of a mortal who spent his entire life defying the gods, and ultimately ascends to join their ranks.
I also want him to ultimately be more than just a god of the undead and undeath. I want him to be a bit more broader and interesting than that, and have enough power to rather quickly become a lesser deity in his own right.
However, I do like the idea of him working with the Dark Triad. I may expand on the Dark Pantheon concept that I had as well, and do something similar for the Triad. Basically, the Dark Pantheon concept was that Bane rules over the heavens much the same as a king does in life. The other gods serve him, or alternatively they oppose his rule. The Dark Triad forms the core of those who sit at the top of the pantheon, while others exist further down. Similarly, there could be a Triadic Pantheon concept going on, where Torm is the head of the pantheon, with the other members of the Triad just below him, followed by other deities who are under them.
This concept is inspired by what Lathander attempted with the Dawn Cataclysm, where he tried to reshape the Faerunian Pantheon. The Faerunian Pantheon is unique from many other pantheons, in that it is a hodgepodge collection of deities from multiple different sources. It is a very "loose" pantheon, whereas most other pantheons are "tight" pantheons, such as the Mulhorandi pantheon or the Elven Pantheon. I sort of imagine various deities, for various reasons, trying to unite the Faerunian Pantheon under them--for both good and ill.
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
It occured to me that perhaps Orcus doesn't need to sway the common folk to gain power in the region. Perhaps the spread of Undeath itself is what feeds him the power he needs to become a God. A plauge of undeath is going to generate a LOT of fear, and that fear could possibly feed him as much as devotion would.
Hmm... perhaps a literal plague of undeath? Some type of horrific necrotic cysts? Imagine some type of literal plague black death style sweeping across the region. The panic and terror!
Of course, I don't want the banner of Orcus to be waving high in the wind. Not yet--not straight out of the gate. Maybe this is something later for the campaign, once the cult of Orcus is revealed, and the initial efforts thwarted... Orcus responds with a horrific counter move.
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
The big problem here is that I would hate for all this Cult of Orcus stuff to get in the way of your Holy/Unholy Trinity concept, which is truly awesome. What if the Unholy Trio are manipulating events, using Orcus and his cult to destabilize the area. Eventually they end up helping the PC's and Velsharoon ensure that Orcus fails so that Velsharoon can claim Divinity instead (owing many favors to the Unholy Three). Perhaps with this alliance with Bane and Loviatar, Tiamat won't be banished as she was in the original Bloodstone campaign. She could potentially pretend to take the fall in order to further the schemes of the Unholy Three in the long run.
Well, I don't plan to have the PC's fight an avatar of Tiamat, as I don't like having players fight deities. Plus, there is enough confusing canon lore about Tiamat dying a million different times as it is, and the Bloodstone Campaign only added to that confusing mess. So, subtracting one of her deaths from canon is to the benefit of the lore. I'm still iffy if she dies during the Time of Troubles or not (as she does in canon and is then later resurrected).
However, reading this made me realize that Bane is very much dead in canon at this point, due to the Time of Troubles. This was one of the original reasons I elected to do the Time of Troubles, but didn't really consider the implications. Primarily, because my focus when it came to Bane has always been on Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug who leads the largest temple of Bane in the Realms, the Black Lords Cloak, which is located in gjd city of Mourktar which is part of Threskel. Canonically, he still believes Bane is alive and is holding the southern church together, whereas it is collapsing and falling apart elsewhere--namely in the Moonsea region.
It is never described in canon how Bane returns, but I think it had to involve Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug. If you want to read more about him in canon, I did a detailed canon thread several years ago. You can find that here. I highly recommend that thread--there is so much good canon lore there. Additionally, it was in that thread where I first put forward the idea of the Dark Triad.
I am basically going to have both the Dark Triad and the Triad concepts originate out of the Old Empires region. Though, I will have to change some of my lore for the Dark Triad to make it fit--it's mostly a timeline issue. The Triad (with Torm at the head and Bahamut joining) and the Dark Triad form after the events of the Spellplague in my current canon. I have to fiddle around with some timeline stuff to make it all work out logically, though there might be a more simple way. It is something that I will have to think on based on my already existing lore.
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Wrigley
Senior Scribe
Czech Republic
605 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2015 : 18:55:04
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Evil gods have most of their veneration based on fear of their power. People sacrifice to Talona to not be claimed by plague, ... So Orcus can spread undead so pleople pray against them. There is also lot of worshipers left by Myrkul who are still praying to him so Orcus only need to listen for their prayers and answer...
I like the idea of Dark Triad a lot :-) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2015 : 13:27:43
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I had a VERY similar campaign to the point of including the party meeting Velsharoon as a mortal (plus thank you very much for the reference, I've been extremely fond of your in-depth thoughts as well), so from it I'm going to give out some ideas.
First, Pre-ToT or Post-Tot? If you're looking to do this as a decent campaign arc, look into doing it Pre-Tot. Zhengyi starts raising his army in Vaasa back in 1347. King Virdin Bloodfeathers waged a whole war against the Witch-King for 10 years before dying off in 1357. Maybe the first five of those years though were mainly in Vaasa organizing the tribes under his banner (possibly by decimating tribes and raising them as undead). Think along the lines of the Wildlings in Game of Thrones being Vaasa with its goblin, orc, ogre, and giant hordes (plus undead and demons), and the Seven Kingdoms being Damara and Impiltur. What this gains for you is at the low levels the party can be fighting against the normal low level stuff, and you can have this war going on. They're just soldiers who are handling their assigned tasks (push back the enemy here, hold this castle, escort these supplies, etc...). Build up King Virdin Bloodfeathers as this powerful leader, bringing hope to Damara. Food becomes tight due to the wolf winter. Then, at the ford of Goliad in 1357, Virdin's chief lieutenant, Felix, assassinates King Virdin. Over the next week, the leaders of most of the Damaran noble households are all killed (have the party find out by losing some noble friends to make it sting). Zhengyi installs his own puppet leaders in the south, though no one knows this for certain. From here, the party must rise up and help their oppressed peoples.
Why did Zhengyi do it? What are the ties between Zhengyi and Orcus? On this, we know that Zhengyi is a renegade red wizard. My take is that Zhengyi and Velsharoon were allies in the formation of Thay, but afterward each left the country which they had helped build. In this concept, I would have Zhengyi as having been a lich during the formation of Thay even. Velsharoon has been extending his lifespan via stealing youth (possibly body swapping, then transferring his face). Also add another piece here... what if Zhengyi is of the bloodline that ruled Narfell (back when Narfell covered Damara, Vaasa, and Impiltur as well), and is actually blood relation to Orcus. His goal may be simply to rebuild an empire (especially after having had a taste of it in Thay's rise).
Secondarily, he may be setting up to invade Dun-Tharos (aka Narathmault... and in my own homebrew aka Bheuristahl). You will note, after he won against Damara, he setup a large goblinkin presence very near the border of the forest in which Dun-Tharos resides. I doubt Zhengyi cared much for his fodder army, so he may have planned to use them for this next stage of expansion, once he had the human kingdoms under his thumb.
This kind of makes me wonder as well... what is Castle Perilous? Is it an old Narfellian fortress that he caused to reconstitute itself?
On the question of why turn to the worship of Orcus? In this instance, I wouldn't have the worshippers of Orcus being necessarily all humans as its been drawn. What if some of the lesser ones are goblinkin, drawn by the power that Zhengyi represents. What if some of them are other actual descendants of ancient Narfell? What if some of them are actually descendants of Zhengyi's own bloodline, wherein a dozen or 30 generations have passed since he birthed their parents. That whole goathead thing.... maybe that was their own horns? What if some of them are male dark elves who are mage-priests and have turned away from Kiaransalee because of their female focus (noting there's a large group of Kiaransalee worshippers in the area, known for hunting Orcus worshippers)? This last would cause enmity between those two religions which comes into play in modern day. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2015 : 13:46:01
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I love your story of St. Sollars the twice martyred. There needs to be some history on that man.
I like the part that Zhengyi is bound to Castle Perilous. What if he needs something in Dun-Tharos to unbind himself from there. Maybe his phylactery can't be moved at present and he needs something in Dun-Tharos that will aid him in that effort. It might also be interesting if Saint Sollars once martyred himself to stop Zhengyi... though that might be cheesy.
Oh, and some of the "priests" of Orcus may also be other exiled necromancers from Thay, come to work under Zhengyi.
you also wrote
<<<As I write all of this and think about it, I am thinking that Orcus and Zhengyi's goal is something truly horrible. They are trying to merge Thanatos with Toril. In essence, this would give Orcus the power to challenge Ao himself, and reshape the world in his image. Just as Zhengyi's Castle is coterminous with Thanatos, the goal is to create magical rifts that gradually spread, which do the same thing. >>>>
Hmmm, so similar to the ritual performed by the Narfellians that binds Eltab's hidden layer to Toril? Makes me even more wonder if he doesn't need to get some lost lore in Dun-Tharos as well as the wizard's tower down in Impiltur.
Oh, and on the idea of other followers of Myrkul, hag priestesses of Orcus have a ring to my ear.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 18 Dec 2015 : 15:28:26
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I like the idea of a plague of undeath being a counter measure for the adventurers having thwarted Orcus' plans. The only thing that could make such a plague worse for the players is knowing that THEY are more or less responsible for it!
The link to Narfell and Eltab is brilliant. The binding of Eltab's layer is exactly what Orcus and Zhengyi are looking for, and allowing the idea that Zhengyi may have been a part of that original ritual means he knows all about it. This creates a nice arc of the campaign where the adventurers are racing to explore Nar ruins and find relics and research before Zhengyi's minions find them. The best part is, if the party DOES beat them, they hand over the relics and research to thier "benefactor" Velsharoon. (Who I assume will be working with them under an alias).
The Dark Elves are a nice touch too. At first the party may wonder how they heck they got involved, but the idea of them seeking a less matriarchal power structure to fit into is perfect.
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Bloodstone Lands Campaign Brainstorming
