| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Charles Rampant
Acolyte
United Kingdom
7 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 12:23:15
|
Hey all,
So the current edition of D&D is built around low magic - not many magic items get dropped by the DMG (even on high level hoards, you can easily get none or only a couple of potions), and you can't buy them. Now, from what I know, FR has generally been a high-magic setting, with various societies explicitly defended by magical/magically empowered forces more than raw troop numbers. (I'm thinking of the 3e guide's description of Silverymoon's mages, etc). With this in mind, would you allow magic item buying in your FR games?
The price list that could be used - since the DMG is mostly silent on the issue - is this one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XAiXpOfz9cMWt1RTBicmpmUDg/. It seems relatively easy to use, even if it refuses to price up many of the more gonzo items.
I ask partially because I am currently running PotA, and one of my players is a Berserker Barbarian; that class struggles with Exhaustion, and one of the few ways to handle it for him might be to buy Potions of Vitality. Expensive, but an option.
Thanks for your thoughts!
|
Edited by - Charles Rampant on 05 Nov 2015 12:24:00
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 13:24:00
|
Id assume that some of the "Thaymarts" would still be active but selection is likely to be alot smaller given that most of the enclaves have divorced themselves from the Tam run Motherland. So pretty much the only items they would have is those they could manufacture on site.
If someone was going to replace the old Thaymarts Id say the Returned Halurra is probably a good bet. They dont have the distrust that people have for Thay, They have a safer method of transportation for their goods (The Sky Ships) than regular shipping, and there country hasnt been turned into a wasteland full of mindless undead
Id say Potions and Scrolls are probably fairly readily avaliable as they can be crafted from readily avaliable materials although higher level scrolls would be harder to come by |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 05 Nov 2015 13:32:05 |
 |
|
|
Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 15:14:51
|
| I'd never allow players to buy magical items. However, I also wouldn't be a stingy DM and make them SUPER rare either. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 15:57:56
|
There's a lot to dislike about the Thaymart concept, but it's also a goldmine of potential adventure hooks and recurring problems for the PCs.
I personally don't think I could get behind Halruaamarts though. While it's true that the Realms-at-large might not distrust Halruaa pre-1385, anyone who heard bar-tales of Halruaa's apparent fate between the Spellplague and the Sundering would have to wonder about the humanity and intentions of anyone claiming to come from Halruaa. Plus there's the issue of whether the Halruaans have any trust for the outside world. Seems to me like they'd be even more withdrawn and introverted following the Spellplague than they were before.
For my own games, if I gave any legitimacy to the Spellplague, I would agree with Dargoth regarding the Thayan enclaves -- some of them managed to survive, or re-established themselves when things started to calm down after the Sundering. There will also be individual wizards and small bands, either independent or affiliated with other factions like the Zhentarim or re-emerging Sembia, who set up their own marts in the cities where the Thayans can't gain dominance. Also: the church of Gond might jump on the bandwagon with various mechanical devices and small firearms, in an attempt to steer folks away from "dependence" on magic. Wherever possible, it's likely that the churches of Waukeen and Tyr will try to regulate and profit from all of these ventures.
I largely agree with the feeling that selling magic items on the street corners cheapens them and kinda ruins the... uh... magic... of gaining them. Way back in the day of Basic D&D, getting a magic weapon or shield for my low-level character was a BFD. I'm not saying that magic weapons should be ultra-rare... just that the *impression* that they are rare and difficult to obtain makes them more of a prize for PCs and hence players. And given the scaled-down mechanics of 5e, it seems clear that the intention is to return to the days of a +2 sword being practically an artifact. In that light, Thayan enclaves seem inherently Munchkin in 5e.
Still, though... scrolls and potions are (relatively) easy to make and should be (relatively) readily available. These can be quietly available in all major cities due to the presence of NPC spellcasters and herbalists, without the need for a "store."
Just my two coppers.
PS: what happened to the pride and self-sufficiency of barbarians? It used to be that a man would get himself shunned (at least) for touching a magic item. 
|
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 18:36:40
|
I never embraced Ye Olde Magic Shoppe or Thay-Mart. The effort required to make magical items (in pre-3E AD&D, anyhow) was costly enough that nobody would ever sell them on open market. Even useless unusable magical items always had great value, they could be used as payment for all sorts of goods and services, they could be used to buy a wizard if nothing else. I imagine a commoner could turn in a magical sword to his lordship in exchange for the land deed on his farm and perhaps even a minor advancement in class and title. I imagine an aspiring noob hero would never trade away his precious magical sword for anything. I imagine a king or baron being able to seal a lifetime oath of fealty by gifting a magical sword to his new vassal. Magic in the Realms can buy dreams which no amount of gold can purchase.
Player like to trade magical items and spells, and they usually drive hard bargains or mutually benefit from the exchange, so it's reasonable to expect NPCs would do the same. Many published adventures describe a local alchemist willing to sell a few potions or important NPCs willing to cough up a magical item to worthy heroes. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 21:20:11
|
I always tried to keep my version of the realms closer to Ed's vision. So every magic item appearing in my campaign had a proper history and name attached to it.
Consequently they weren't doled out like sweets (which I think was a very 3e issue because the system required it at higher levels) and even a +1 sword became a treasured possession because they were unlikely to find another +1 sword during their entire adventuring career.
Now that I've made my own rules, the issue of magic items is very important. I created a system where you can design your own items (mixing the epic magic seed type system with the magic item system of 3e), which gives you an enchantment dc and cost that needs to be met in order to craft the item.
Crafting an item is very costly. The income of most commoners is 10-20 silver pieces and magic items start in the 100s of gp. +1 items are the ones you will find as random items and cost a few thousand to make. +2 items are for really special items like royal regalia of a kingdom. +3 items are things like holy relics that may have had some divine assistance. +4 and beyond are artefact level that may take a lifetime to create and pay for. The cost goes up by at least a factor of 10 for each + of magic item so a +4 item should cost millions to make (something that even King Azoun probably couldn't afford).
So where does that leave the thayan enclaves which supposedly mass produced magic items. For me I allow the enchant dc and cost to be reduced by sacrificing experience points, hitpoints, gold pieces, and rare reagents. Taking that one step further I have the crafters in Thay use slaves to help create them.
I imagine dungeons where slaves are strapped into machines and drained of their vitality (hitpoints), and knowledge (experience points). Take 10 slaves, make one +1 sword and the slaves probably survive and are let back out to work on the farms. Each time they are brought in they get weaker until they just die one day (turned into empty husks) and then the Red Wizards go and pick another slave.
Its sick, its evil, and its very Thayan. How that would work in 1490's where the link between the slave farms of Thay and the enclaves has been broken I have no idea.
Other places I'd allow magic items to be bought are through Duergar (from places such as the marketplace in Mantol Derith), but these magic items would likely be fake, temporary, or fragile and prone to breaking under the slightest stress (like combat).
Alternatively you could always contract a local wizard to make a magic item to your specifications. Demron did it for Myth Drannor, I would imagine many royal regalia of the realms were made in a similar fashion (although not all since Eadraal used Ilbratha which was made for Cormyr originally). Such a process would likely be hellishly expensive but that's how I like it, getting a magic item should be one of the best moments of an adventuring career. |
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions Candlekeep Archive
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 1
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 2
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 3
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 4
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 5
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 6
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 7
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 8
Forgotten Realms Alternate Dimensions: Issue 9
Alternate Realms Site |
|
|
|
JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 22:23:58
|
I'm using the 2nd edition style of handling magic items myself (thankfully we never established how common magic items were in 4th edition due to playing Living Forgotten Realms and it just being something we did between adventures). In 2nd edition magic items were most definitely purchasable. For example the Old Dragon Down is a magic shoppe in Archenbridge of the Dalelands. It's purpose is specifically to sell and buy magic items from Myth Drannor along with selling other goods often needed by adventurers.
However I'll note that the Old Dragon Down doesn't make magic items, and it most certainly does not make them to order. It only sells ancient relics. And those relics that it contains are always minor magical knick knacks such as an everburning lamp or a cloak that hangs in the air when commanded to. Cormyr also has shops where magic items can be purchased, but they're much of the same vein. I also read (Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms) that Halruaan mages travel the world in disguise to BUY powerful magic items and then hide them away in Halruaa.
As for things like potions of healing or potions of vitality, it's well established that temples (and even shrines) tend to keep a handful of potions on hand that they sell to those in need (some will sell to all adventurers, others will only sell to those who they perceive as doing their god's work). However they always keep a couple back lest someone else comes along and needs more, so don't expect to be able to buy a sackful of potions.
I personally will be allowing powerful magic items to be purchased and sold through private buyers. You want that magic sword? You're going to need to go to a noble and he's then going to have to consider the risk/reward ratio. Is the risk of letting some murder-hobo walk around with a magic sword worth whatever price that murder-hobo is willing to pay? How will the commonfolk look upon the lord or lady who supposedly has their best interests at heart and yet sold the weapon that killed one fifth of the town to the murderer? So you're going to need to establish yourself as a person of good repute. Letters of introduction from nearby nobles might help you establish that reputation more quickly, but there's still going to be that period where you're untrusted. Then you have to look at the price you're willing to pay. Gold is fine and all. But nobles already get gold from other sources so unless you find an impoverished noble they're unlikely to be motivated purely by gold. Even if you do find an impoverished noble I would say there is ettiquette among the noble houses to go to a fellow noble and sell the magic item to rather than some commoner. Then you have to consider how many magic items does the noble have? If the entire noble house only has 1 magic sword, chances are they'll be unwilling to part with it for any gold.
PCs trying to sell magic items on the other hand will be much easier. I suspect nobles consider it their duty to take dangerous magical items (weapons, armor, certain other items) away from the commoners and into more worthy hands. So nobles are always willing to buy them (and if a particular noble can't afford it I expect the king or queen of the land is willing to buy it from that noble for much the same reason as the nobles are trying to keep it out of the hands of commoners). All other magic items can be bought or sold in knick knack stores or pawn stores. However just because something COULD be purchased from such a store doesn't mean that particular store will have said magic item at that exact time. The idea of buying a magic item to order is also definitely non-existant. At best you might find a recipe to create a magic item (which will require all sorts of components and steps be carried out to create the item, not all of which are strictly necessary but the person who wrote out the recipe didn't realise this).
As for the Thay, I know nothing about them and so won't be including Thaymarts in my campaigns. I see them as an artifact of how magic items worked in 3rd ed/4th ed and not necessarily something that contributes to an enjoyable and fantastic world. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
Edited by - JohnLynch on 05 Nov 2015 22:30:23 |
|
|
|
Rymac
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 22:45:51
|
Quite a while ago I was in a group whose DM didn't allow PCs to buy magic items, and the point was brought up, but we're allowed to sell them. We're allowed to trade them. Why can't we buy them? So the few times I dungeon-mastered in the group, I allowed the players to buy and sell magic items, and trade (barter) magic items for another magic item(s), but because it's a special type of commerce, it had to be role played. In other words, you had to find a seller or a buyer. In most cases, they'd be temples, or wizards (and such), other (perhaps rival) adventurers, and nobility.
In other words, buying and selling magic items shouldn't be as easy as (if there was such a thing) the Forgotten Realms equivalent of eBay. |
- Ryan |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 22:53:17
|
| Is there actually an ingame reason why Magic items are less common in the realms in 5ed? Did the Weave collpsing during the Spellplague nulify alot of Magic items? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 22:56:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Is there actually an ingame reason why Magic items are less common in the realms in 5ed? Did the Weave collpsing during the Spellplague nulify alot of Magic items?
Was there ever an in game reason why magic items were more common in 3rd edition? Were the Thayan Enclaves new in the 1370s (rather than a retcon)? If there was an in game reason, then the Spellplague would certainly be a good excuse (I can't find any reference to Thayan Enclaves in the FRCG). |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 23:16:49
|
It wouldn't be hard to cobble a story reason for magic items to be rare post-Sundering... everything went haywire following the death of Mystra, and the Sundering didn't restore individual magic items to proper functioning. The magic items that were crafted before the Spellplague and survive to 1490 are unpredictable. So all charges have been lost from charged items, and they won't accept new charges. Anything that had a spell effect (wands of magic missiles, etc) now perform erratically, like a wand of wonder but without any hostile or defensive spell effects; it's all streams of flowers and harmless color sprays, polymorphing the wielder into a sheep for an hour, etc. Even the constant items like +1 swords have been affected; they now have d100 charges, 1d4 charges are consumed on every use (the wielder has no control over a charge being used), and like other charged items they cannot be recharged. This quickly removes all magic items from play.
Post-Sundering, Mystra has returned and the structure of magic has been subtly tweaked again. Casters must learn again to access and employ the Weave, but there are procedures for enchanting items that will work now. So new magic items created after the Sundering are fine, but the old ones are phased out, resulting in a rarity of magic items because casters are still learning to create them.
So there could be an in-game reason for it, but I don't think that's been spelled out officially.
What we do have is a severely curtailed list of bonuses. +5 weapons are ridiculous in 5e, because AC values don't go very high; likewise powerful magic armor would turn the average goblin into a TPK machine. A +1 bonus makes a much bigger difference to our rolls in 5e than it did in earlier editions, even at high levels.
|
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 23:30:58
|
Well the Spellplague clearly destroyed magical items, the statues of Waterdeep for example.
If it was in game reason, I think not. It was more likely a rules adjustment to balance the cllasses and powers they have.
The Time of Troubles was also a reason of an event that covered rule changes.
All such changes are not "in game", they are instead meta game. The narratives are Fluff to cover why thing changed. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2015 : 23:38:53
|
I liked the Red Wal-Marts myself, though I'd've kept them limited to scrolls, potions, wands, and spell components. Anything else would have been one-off, if they had it. You might find a +1 sword in one, but certainly not a +3 dagger of spiffiness or a +5 axe of OMG!Kewlness.
And my Realms will retain the Red Wal-Marts, controlled by the Thay-in-Exile faction, of course. I don't like much of the post-3E stuff, and I think they massively dropped the ball by not having a Thayan civil war that resulted in loyalists in Thay and a anti-Szazz Tam faction based in Mulmaster. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Nov 2015 23:44:00 |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 00:04:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
All such changes are not "in game", they are instead meta game. The narratives are Fluff to cover why thing changed.
Full agreement from me, and I'll add that those narratives never do a good job. I haven't seen an official cover story yet for reducing the number and power of magic items following the Sundering but I'm sure it's coming, and I hope it doesn't remind me of using Bhaal to kill off all the assassins in the world or leaving Leira out of the ToT novels or killing Mystra or having gods freakin marry each other.
Uncovering old magic items is at least half the fun in storming a dragon's lair. Allowing all those items to be severed from the Weave is a tragedy on a story level and a hideous nightmare for DMs on a treasure-generating level.
Here's hoping we don't suffer that fate as an unintended consequence of a poorly considered cover story. |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 00:07:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think they massively dropped the ball by not having a Thayan civil war that resulted in loyalists in Thay and a anti-Szazz Tam faction based in Mulmaster.
Any chance you'll write this up for those of us who want to explore alternative storylines, or jot down your ideas for co-author credit? I think it's a +3 idea of spiffiness.  |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 00:10:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I liked the Red Wal-Marts myself, though I'd've kept them limited to scrolls, potions, wands, and spell components. Anything else would have been one-off, if they had it. You might find a +1 sword in one, but certainly not a +3 dagger of spiffiness or a +5 axe of OMG!Kewlness.
And my Realms will retain the Red Wal-Marts, controlled by the Thay-in-Exile faction, of course. I don't like much of the post-3E stuff, and I think they massively dropped the ball by not having a Thayan civil war that resulted in loyalists in Thay and a anti-Szazz Tam faction based in Mulmaster.
It would be interesting if each Thayan Enclaves had focused on a Specfic school of magic (less Necromancy which is the common enemy) and had developed different idealogies (read alignments) seeing as how there probably arent any Native born Thayans living in the Enclaves anymore
You then run a campaign revolving around Alliance building (kind of Like what you do in the Tiamat modules) where the characters try and unite the Enclaves and recruit external forces that might be willing to help (Like the Church of Kelemvor/Lathander, Thays neighbours, Velashoon (now that hes back) Which culminates in a Military campaign to retake the homeland and destroy Tam
Getting back to the Orginal avaliablity of magic items.
If most magic items where destroyed during the Spellplague (question for anyone who has read the 4th edition FR novels, Do any of the characters have Magics items that are older than the Spellplague?)
and those new items that where crafted between the Spellplague and the Sundering where destroyed when the weave returned thens its likely that items made from Special materials are probably more common then Magic items and may even be more readily avlaible in some areas ie non magical Adamantine/Mithril etc weapons and Armor |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 00:20:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
If most magic items where destroyed during the Spellplague... and those new items that where crafted between the Spellplague and the Sundering where destroyed when the weave returned thens its likely that items made from Special materials are probably more common then Magic items and may even be more readily avlaible in some areas ie non magical Adamantine/Mithril etc weapons and Armor
I've always assumed that this is true; forging weapons and armor from adamantine doesn't require any spells or feats. I think it was silly to include these things in the DMG magic item section... they're not magical and making them doesn't require magic.
But note that the thing about magic items being destroyed in the Spellplague is just a hypothetical I tossed in as a terrible way to justify a lower magic level in the 5e Realms. |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 00:52:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
If most magic items where destroyed during the Spellplague... and those new items that where crafted between the Spellplague and the Sundering where destroyed when the weave returned thens its likely that items made from Special materials are probably more common then Magic items and may even be more readily avlaible in some areas ie non magical Adamantine/Mithril etc weapons and Armor
I've always assumed that this is true; forging weapons and armor from adamantine doesn't require any spells or feats. I think it was silly to include these things in the DMG magic item section... they're not magical and making them doesn't require magic.
But note that the thing about magic items being destroyed in the Spellplague is just a hypothetical I tossed in as a terrible way to justify a lower magic level in the 5e Realms.
The rare material items where harder to come by due to the avliablity of the raw materials. Pre the spellplague all you needed was a masterwork weapon which was easier to come by in a large City like Waterdeep or Silverymoon and a Spellcaster able to enchant it which also werent that hard to come by. Generally rare material items are probably a bit more common than they where pre spellplague due to more people looking to mine the ore and craft the items due to the lack of actual magic items.
The Silver Marches and Sword Coast for example would have a higher chance of having Mithril items due to the presence of the Dwarf holds in the Region that are known to trade with other non dwarven settlements.
If magic items have become rarer due to the Spellplague/Sundering it probably wont be for long now that Mystra has returned, in one of Eds Early Elminster novels Mystra 1.0 has Elminster crafting magic items to put in ruins and Hordes to "spread the magic" so I wouldnt be suprised if Mystra church becomes a source of magic items |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 01:11:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think they massively dropped the ball by not having a Thayan civil war that resulted in loyalists in Thay and a anti-Szazz Tam faction based in Mulmaster.
My loyalists and anti-Szazz Tam faction are in the Wizard's Reach. They would have mounted an offensive except their leaders were all executed and then Aglarond attacked them and won. Bring in the fact that magic wasn't working directly after the Spellplague (although Szass Tam didn't seem bothered by it) the rebellion was stillborn from the beginning.
Of course Zulkir's are supposedly being allowed to rise in Thay, so one can't help but wonder what prompted that (potentially quite a bit of guerrilla warfare and this is an attempt to appease the anti-Szass Tam faction). Aglarond on the other hand is getting quite nervous and is fearful that Szass Tam is going to reclaim the Thay controlled cities of the Wizard's Reach and then march onto the rest of Aglarond. As such Aglarond is desperately trying to amass an army to make an offensive themselves. The Wizard's Reach is currently stuck between a rock and a hard place. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 01:37:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Rampant
With this in mind, would you allow magic item buying in your FR games?
Yes.
However, I have experience running campaigns where magic items can be purchased. Allowing it has its pros and cons.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Rampant
The price list that could be used - since the DMG is mostly silent on the issue - is this one: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8XAiXpOfz9cMWt1RTBicmpmUDg/. It seems relatively easy to use, even if it refuses to price up many of the more gonzo items.
That list is a start. I’ve never met a list that didn’t have at least one poorly priced magic item.
I’m not sure what kind of game you’re going to run. If there’s not going to be much roleplaying, then the magic item list can serve you well.
If there is roleplaying, then use the list as a baseline and don’t be afraid to have an NPC that smells blood in the water start out by asking for an insane amount from the PCs for what they want.
|
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 01:45:33
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The rare material items where harder to come by due to the avliablity of the raw materials... rare material items are probably a bit more common than they where pre spellplague due to more people looking to mine the ore and craft the items due to the lack of actual magic items.
Well, yes but the availability of materials becomes increasingly easy for PCs to circumvent as they level up. Portals linking points on Toril may have gone wonky during 4e but spells and gates leading to other planes still functioned. Whatever materials you want can be found in Sigil, Mechanus, the elemental plane of earth, and so forth. Granted, once PCs can cast these spells they can enchant their items without worrying about getting a supply of adamantine, but establishing a long-term link between Toril and the planes (Mirabar to Rigus, for example) enables a family or clan to set up a deal by which they can obtain effectively unlimited quantities of special metals. There's no equivalent "faucet" for establishing a flow of magical weapons or armor because those things still take magic and specialization and time to manufacture while ingots of metal are in constant demand and are therefore much cheaper and quicker to obtain. It's definitely a valid point that the dearth of magic weapons and armor would drive warriors to seek adamantine and so forth... and I think it would be easier for them to get it than to get magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
If magic items have become rarer due to the Spellplague/Sundering it probably wont be for long now that Mystra has returned, in one of Eds Early Elminster novels Mystra 1.0 has Elminster crafting magic items to put in ruins and Hordes to "spread the magic" so I wouldnt be suprised if Mystra church becomes a source of magic items
True. So the real challenge, for those who need a story to accompany changes in the mechanics, is how to craft the story so that (1) there is still a logical increase of magical items as casters reacquire the ability to enchant things; (2) the vast majority of high-plus weapons and armor are removed from circulation; (3) new high-plus weapons and armor can't be crafted by PCs; (4) everything makes sense so that immersion and suspension-of-disbelief can be maintained.
It's a tough challenge, I think. I'm not envious of that job. This is one reason why I think killing Mystra was an irredeemably stupid idea, and "justifying" rules changes with stories while also continually escalating to bigger RSEs is doomed to fail.
But if that's what they're going to do, then they need to do it well, and there's no shame in calling BS when the story falls apart.
...hrm.
The mini-Jeremy Grenemyer on my shoulder just said "build up what you love instead of tearing down what you don't."
I hate it when he's right like that.
|
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 02:32:02
|
Ewww beware the man who uses gates and portals to other planes to solve his problems, there once was man named Wulgreth.........
I cant say Id imagine that many places would be willing to set up a perment gate or portal to another plane in their region and even if you did I doubt it would go unoticed by the Planes residents, even a plane as beniegn as the Elemental Plane of Earth would atract attention from at Best Xorn and at worst evil Earth elemental princes.
then theres a question of how your miners are going to survive while they prospect and then mine the rare mineral your after. The dominent material of the Plane of Earth is (Funnily enough) Earth so the miners are going to have to find a region of the Plane where Air is present so the miners can breath and water for survival (Although you could avoid this with Create Food and Water spells)
Doing what your suggesting would be like us putting a Mining Colony on Mars with the added problem of a hostile native enviroment |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 03:40:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
there once was man named Wulgreth.........
Psh. He was a noob.
I was really just talkin about facilitating travel between "civilized" areas, like cities, for commerce. I agree that sending mining crews into the elemental planes would be... well, "hazardous" isn't a strong enough word. It probably wouldn't even be approved by a governing council without magical compulsion, and that would bring its own problems.
Nah, I'm just suggesting that a few retiring dwarven adventurers could set up shop in Rigus or one of the other towns on the disk beneath Sigil, and raise a two-way keyed portal to pass goods and compensation back and forth. In this way the dwarves of Mirabar could get adamantine, mithral, or whatever, from merchants of other Prime worlds as well as the outer/inner planes. Given the planar portals in each of those towns on the disk, it's hard to imagine that connections aren't being made (and unmade by rivals) on a constant basis. There would be some overhead cost involved in defending the Rigus end of the portal, but it could be offset by being a "home away from home" for dwarven and dwarf-friendly adventurers from all over the planes and thus attracting defenders and paying travelers.
This has veered off the original topic, but I'm just saying even a decrease in the availability of magic items doesn't have to mean that everyone is stuck with "stock" items as they level up. It's quite possible for an ambitious NPC or retiring PC to compensate by increasing the availability of special materials for his home region, and make a profit while doing it.
I dislike level limits, but if we're going to banish levels 21+ I would take this option in a heartbeat over the vague fade-to-black offered by wandering off into the planes to do level 21+ things, never to be heard from again. Even if retirement comes at level 7 because the players want to play lower levels, this keeps "old" PCs relatively close to home and the potential is there to gather them in for "one more quest" and that feels cool to me both as a player and as a DM. Sure, the PC who wanders off into the planes can return too, but this is much more tangible -- they're *doing* something that has *meaning.* It turns retirement into a vacation.
But I know many feel differently. |
|
|
|
Noobi-wan
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 05:27:56
|
I try to keep the idea that magic is rare and wondrous. I never want to trivialize magic item acquisition, so I tend to really think about what items I will and won't allow into the game and how they will impact the gameplay and how a devious player will use it. Each item when found will have a reason for being there, a story behind it if the player is willing to investigate.
I Strictly regulate magic in my world. I have some personal rules that I apply to weapons and armor and I have a list of magical items I've made that can be found in "random" encounters. Perhaps they were used against the PC's. I try to tailor the groups magic acquisition to the campaign, classes, quests, side stories and plain old random slaughter. The idea of just walking into a shop in a town and buying magic seems offensive to me, it trivializes magic items in my opinion. There is plenty of stuff out there in the world already.
Weapons and armor I keep at +1, +2, +3. There are some exceptions. A few very rare pieces of armor will be +4,pieces kept by Royalty or in a Museum. Perhaps it was lost when the wearer was killed looking for a certain item. Weapons, only exceptional intelligent weapons will be +4, +5, Moonblades and other such rarities would be in that category, as well as weapons I had perhaps created specifically for the campaign, a single purpose weapon.
My only exception to the purchase of magic is Potions. I have found clerics to be the most unplayed, unloved class, so potions are abundant depending on the area. Most big cities will have an alchemist, and some are better than others. So the potions' strength will be determined by the alchemist. A little chart I made, not every alchemist uses top notch ingredients :)
|
|
|
|
Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 06:15:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
(snip) ...so I wouldn't be surprised if Mystra's church becomes a source of magic items.
That's one possibility.
Me? I think Mystra will command her clergy to actively support anyone who makes it their job in life to craft, transport and sell magic items, and to spread their craft to others.
For example: if a merchant or cabal of merchants try to manufacture minor magic items and sell them in an area, I'd figure any church of Mystra in the area would agree to allow its priests to transport rare materials needed by mages working for, or selling to, the merchants, if the merchants asked for help or were suffering losses due to nefarious acts by brigands and agents of any competition.
This would be something like what altar sworn priests do in the Realms. The service wouldn't be free, of course, but the priests would see it as their duty and their responsibility.
I'd wager whatever tatters remain in terms of Weave Ghosts and other creatures that lingered in the Weave before the Spellplague, as well as the Chosen, will all work covertly to aid those who craft and spread magic, whatever form it takes.
If any Thayan enclaves remain (AFAIK they don't, but anything's possible), I think Mystra would support them in some fashion as well, provided they didn't hoard magic, work to cause a shortage of magic or otherwise have as their ultimate goal the spreading of faulty magic.
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
The mini-Jeremy Grenemyer on my shoulder just said "build up what you love instead of tearing down what you don't."
I hate it when he's right like that.
My man.   |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 06 Nov 2015 06:20:37 |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 06:29:05
|
Instead of a magical solution, why don't you go with a herbal or alchemical boost? You could weave into your game the fact that the great barbarian "king" Argrus "the Fierce" devised the Draught of the Bear, which would act to eliminate exhaustion (in game terms it would be less efficacious than the potions you mention, but would still be a help). The recipe is hard to find (and perhaps incomplete requiring further research) and requires rare herbs and ingredients, some of which are not readily available. This way you can have a money sink for the character (those herbs cost gold!) as well as adventure opportunities as he quests for quickling skin, or a particular type of butterfly, etc. etc.
Magic shops? No thanks.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2015 : 06:57:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think they massively dropped the ball by not having a Thayan civil war that resulted in loyalists in Thay and a anti-Szazz Tam faction based in Mulmaster.
Any chance you'll write this up for those of us who want to explore alternative storylines, or jot down your ideas for co-author credit? I think it's a +3 idea of spiffiness.
First, I'll note that my idea is inspired heavily by BattleTech, where Clan Wolf fractured into the Crusader half that stayed in Clan space, keeping the Clan Wolf moniker, and the Warden half that settled in Lyran space, becoming Clan Wolf-in-Exile.
Thay's involvement in Mulmaster is why I pick it for the "capital" of Thay-in-Exile.
Without knowing much about Thayan politics or the happenings in Thay, here's what I came up with:
As some point, Szass Tam realizes that Thay is never going to be as strong as it could be with all the striving against each other on the parts of the Zulkirs and the Red Wizards. Sure, they're not as prone to opportunistic assassination as say the Zhents, but in Thay, you still learn to become paranoid or dead.
So he decides to suborn each of the Zulkirs, controlling them and thru them, Thay.
After he's got 3 or 4 in his pocket, one of the others realizes what's up and blows the lid on the story. It escalates to an internal war pretty quickly, with some staying loyal to Szassy, and others thinking Szassy is too old school and that old school methods have obviously failed. The latter faction includes a lot of those involved with the Thayan enclaves popping up all over the Heartlands.
So that faction decides it's best to get out of dodge, and heads to Mulmaster, which they more or less take over.
This leaves Szass Tam and his loyalists in charge of Thay... But there's now a large portion of Red Wizards located outside of Thay. And the Red Wal-Marts and their other merchantile efforts have maintained enough of a cashflow for them to keep up their war with the loyalists.
It's more of a cold war than anything else, but both sides are quite willing to throw mercenaries and adventurers at each other.
And to me, the real beauty of this idea is that you've got Thayans versus Thayans going on, but you've also got just about every other group anywhere in the Realms as potential players in this glorious mess. The Harpers, moving against one side or the other to keep them from getting too strong and to keep them focused on each other. The Zhents, resenting the mercantile and local intrusions. Purely mercantile groups, looking to make money out of it all. Mercenaries, doing the same. Nations like Aglarond and Rashemen doing much the same thing the Harpers are doing. Other wizards, either in groups like the Twisted Rune, or looking out for their own good, getting involved to get new magic out of the deal. Even individual rulers, nobles, and merchants could get involved for various reasons, like gold or protecting their own interests.
Pretty much none of these groups or individuals would act openly, and involvement would range from tossing their own mercenaries into the mix to waylaying individual couriers or shipments. Most of their efforts would also be limited in duration: a skirmish here, a Red Wal-Mart trashed over there, assassination of a senior apprentice in Thay...
It would be a big, years-long conflict, and at some point, just about every power group in the Realms could be involved in some way. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 08:21:19
|
I generally use the DMG's suggestions for magic item prices, treating magic item salesman almost like art galleries or antique stores; sure they might be knowledgable about their products and might even be able to repair and refurbish them, but they do NOT make their products at all and thus you won't find every single possible magic item in a magic item store just because it MIGHT have that magic item; you randomly roll up what they have to sell in their limited inventory, and while they'll pay you for unwanted magical items you find on your adventures you're going to need to barter with them to get a solid price on certain sales since the value of the various magical items isn't a set thing with an arbitrary numerical value but is determined by it's rarity, usefulness, and if it's demand by the magic item salesman's regular or consistent clients.
One of the more notable imstances with our group had a guy in Waterdeep who basically sold magical baubles that did nothing of adventuring value more or less but we're really popular among the wealthy aristocracy and plutocrats one can find in Waterdeep; one of the things he had (randomly rolled) was the lowest ranked Bag of Holding which I had him sell at a reduced price because his regular clients didn't need a bag that could carry more stuff to bring with them everywhere; that's what SERVANTS were for, obviously, or if you absolutely must a hired or purchased pack mule. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 10:09:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It would be a big, years-long conflict, and at some point, just about every power group in the Realms could be involved in some way.
Sorry, I meant to reply to this but apparently I got sidetracked. I dig it. I've been waiting for WotC to do something with the Thayans in Mulmaster too, but now I think we're on our own for pursuing pre-4e plot hooks. I think this is a great campaign seed and totally worthy of exploration by any other scribes who are interested. I might have more thoughts after I get some sleep, in a new thread. |
|
|
|
LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 10:52:03
|
Your friendly neighborhood Red Wizard has all the bling you need.
You can't trip over a rock without some epic wizard crawling out from underneath, so magic-marts should be fairly common. If not, there's always relying on your long-suffering party wizard.
See, the problem is that you need magic bling the higher level you are, because it's the only way to remain reasonably effective. Martial classes suffer from this far more than casters, and the scaling of creature AC and hp means that you absolutely need more and more of an edge.
By martials, I mean non-casters that aren't monks, because nobody plays monks and think they can match the fighter or barbarian at killing things.
DM reticence only goes so far before your players demand some bang for their buck. You can't keep forcing the party wizard to blow his feats on Craft feats. |
Edited by - LordofBones on 15 Nov 2015 10:58:41 |
|
|
|
Brylock
Acolyte
USA
43 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2015 : 16:34:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Your friendly neighborhood Red Wizard has all the bling you need.
You can't trip over a rock without some epic wizard crawling out from underneath, so magic-marts should be fairly common. If not, there's always relying on your long-suffering party wizard.
See, the problem is that you need magic bling the higher level you are, because it's the only way to remain reasonably effective. Martial classes suffer from this far more than casters, and the scaling of creature AC and hp means that you absolutely need more and more of an edge.
By martials, I mean non-casters that aren't monks, because nobody plays monks and think they can match the fighter or barbarian at killing things.
DM reticence only goes so far before your players demand some bang for their buck. You can't keep forcing the party wizard to blow his feats on Craft feats.
Thank god that that whole problem has been relatively solved.
There are but three magical items among my current party (not counting disposables like potions and the odd scroll here and there) at level 8/9-ish and we no longer NEED anything of that sort in the current edition to succeed despite not having a dedicated arcane caster. Admittedly we had to splurge on some silver to take on a diabloist and his summoned goons and those werewolves that one time, but aside from that we're only just missing out on a +1 here and there which no longer drastically affects our combat effectiveness in any meaningful way.
The only way it does is when we encounter a creature with heavy Resistances, which actually is fairly rare even at the level we're at much to my surprise. |
"It's almost like whenever you talk you flip through the dictionary and pull out words at random or something." |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Buying magic items in the Realms?
