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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 17:48:52
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hi all,
just a quick one i have been trying to work out the amount of tax / tributes a pirate lord would get who runs a busy city of about 10,000 pop.
and has 30 ships who sail under his banner.
any helpful advice would be welcomed
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 18:15:41
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There is no simple answer.
There are many types of taxes. In general taxes have to meet the cost of city services.
So in part you need to know how much it costs for the Watch that provides law enforcement and Guard that defends the City as a whole. Then some kind of court system, civil service such as street and roads trash collection and so on, of course what might be most important the cost of collecting taxes.
What can be taxed are people, a head tax
Businesses and Homes, a land tax.
An entrance and/or exit tax, basically a toll.
An import or export tax, a duty fee imposed on value of goods.
Also fees might be charged for marriage certificate, begging permit, a weapon carry permit, Court filing fees for civil disputes.
As for the 30 ships raiding the profit or loss tends to be per trip. When you raid a ship you can not be sure of the cargo and even if knowing be sure all of it will be collected, of course the attacking ship might get sunk by defenders.
Edit: Hand a typo. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 07 Sep 2015 18:42:36 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2015 : 20:45:37
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| Another factor would be how you want the city to be run... If you want clean streets and honest lawkeepers, that's going to cost more than streets full of sewage and guards that are little better than thugs. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2015 : 08:45:46
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There is also the matter of the underlings themselves. Yes, they may be loyal in the presence of the pirate lord but what about when they believe he would be none the wiser to their own activities? Even in our own world where the people have unprecedented access to the inner workings of all aspects of government and unfettered use of instantaneous information about even the most arcane of procedures there is still endemic corruption and "the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing" actions in governments that otherwise loudly boast of their transparency and honesty. It would be easy for armed people in the service of the Pirate-Lord to levy harsher taxes than the mandates and keep the surplus for themselves so long as the mandated amount keeps flowing up-the-chain as expected. Creative individuals can even fabricate new taxes without the gainsay of an unarmed populace that has no other recourse but to pay.
The quality of people attracted to the service of a "pirate lord" are not the kind who believe in hard work and discipline to improve their lot in life nor the type to believe in the well being of others to which to commit their endeavors. There may be outliers whom wind up in such service but those will be exceptions to the mainstay of criminals, ne'er-do-wells, hot-heads, bravos, lay-abouts, shirkers, exiles, and opportunists. Tributes, taxes, levies, tariffs, fines, fees, and many other terms for activities fleecing people of their wealth will be invented while extortion, bribery, graft, and other unwholesome transactions will do much the same with more sinister consequences will create more drains on the economy and government resources. Only absolutely tyrannical rule where the lord has a near-perfect intelligence system to track his subordinates will be able to keep order absent the presence of the lord and his loyal inner circle (if he has one, loyal or not). That micro-managing omniscience is possible in the realms but is unlikely due to the extreme amount of magic and manpower necessary to pull off.
30 ships of war and the crews necessary to man them will be expensive to maintain. The best way to mitigate their costs is if they are out earning their keep through trade... "pirate-lord," yeah, raiding the merchant lanes to steal what they can from poorly armed vessels to be traded back at home. That is a high-risk endeavor as the merchants will demand action from their own governments for protection and pirates tend to do very poorly versus nations that can put ships-of-the-line to sea with trained soldiers aboard. Even the history of the Realms is littered with the wreckage of would be pirate-kings and their eventual comeuppance at the hands of one nation-state or another. The men aboard pirate ships know what will happen to them if they are caught and they do have command of a vessel that they can sail away on and never return so the compensation for the crews and provisioning of these vessels must be high enough to keep them satisfied with the arrangement.
But this would also depend on the economy and resources that the pirate-lord controls. A city of 10k people is huge. Just on sustenance alone there is need for 2500 gallons of clean water and 20,000 lbs of food each day to be transported into the settlement. Water sources inside the city area are likely to be polluted and diseased from so many people living in close proximity and without a robust healing industry sickness will be endemic to the population with periodic flare-ups of common ailments. Mastery of the work force necessary to oversea the production/procurement of this daily bounty is no small feat and would require a level of planning & execution that can only be handled by a skilled corps of middle-managers to assign the manpower and schedule the freight deliveries but whatever means of conveyance exists. This is nothing to say of the raw materials, catalyst materials (coal, fire wood, waste water, etc), refined materials, and finished goods that need to be brought in to keep urban industries functioning. For example, a simple steel sword requires refined refined steel from iron ore and coke, charcoal, waste water, wood & leather scrap for the handle, manufactured smithing tools, grind/whetstone, and a skilled weapons maker whom has the time to dedicate to the crafting process instead of needing to find his daily requirements for sustenance (meaning, he needs to be fed as well(a quart of water & 2 pounds of food daily)).
And that is just barely scratching the surface of the infrastructure required for an urban environment nor the dizzying levels of management necessary for the logistics of such an operation to keep 30 ships seaworthy. The craft of pitch, use of tar, sourcing of prime timber, supply of woven sails, and constant natural decay that threatens the integrity of the vessels keeps crews busy. Now imagine the supplies that need to be on hand, how much is lost to spoilage and/or breakage, what has to be stored where in the city until needed by a particular crew, and what is necessary to make and/or buy those supplies in the first place.
Delving that deep into the simulation is not for everyone, though. Portose_sharpe, for what do you need this information? It would greatly help to know what the circumstances are for this city of 10K and the need to pay its controller tribute? For which side of the gaming screen is this information being solicited - for the players or the for the game master? What are you looking to resolve by asking this of us? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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portose_sharpe
Seeker
Ireland
74 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2015 : 13:44:25
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| i am the DM, and the pc group is in the final stages of taking over a pirate town, they are evil charater, and one of the group is a pirate and he will be acting as the face of the group. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2015 : 08:07:16
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So you are looking at this as an ongoing reward situation for conquering the town? Hmm... Perhaps if I illustrate a baseline with some chosen variables. The liquid wealth of the settlement is 75,000 gold coins for a stable community with open trade unimpaired by any disruptions to its commerce and fair trading practices through all strata of infrastructure. Since taxes would more likely be assessed against the perceived wealth of the citizens instead of being calculated by each transaction the tax is fixed for each individual but we can still assume a percentage of the liquid wealth. A measure of that revenue will be spent immediately on maintaining said infrastructure (payroll, maintenance, improvement, prevention, replacement), thus putting many of those coins back into the economy. The DMG seems to have 20% as a standard tax rate but that is with the caveats of a stable rule, reasonably loyal civil servants/soldiers to enact order, abundant resources, and good morale amongst the population - in other words, ideal conditions for an economy to grow and no negative events that can sour the mood towards taxation. That would be 15,000 gold taken in by the tax collectors.
That 15K is NOT profit. The tax collectors need to be paid. So too the soldiers, the sailors, the weaponmakers, the shipwrights, the blacksmiths, the carpenters, the tailors, the tanners, the sailmakers, the spinsters, the quartermasters, the teamsters, and on, and on, and on. Competence commands greater pay as does experience & leadership. My real world experience has proven that loyalty and diligence can be swayed by monetary compensation but not a lot (a person who would betray another for money was not that loyal to begin with but the question remains how many degrees separate compliance with a duty and shirking that duty for an increasing amount of cash). Unless the players are putting this cash almost wholly back into the town the entire shebang will start unraveling as roads/structures/vessels fall into disrepair, the economy contracts with the loss of freely moving coins, unpaid or underpaid civil servants don't work to their expectations, taxes are not met because workers can't find employment with the curtailment of moving funds, and revenues are not met for the next taxation cycle.
Now add in the complication of a pirate city that has just seen upheaval in its leadership and a temporary freeze on the local economy as the shake-up leads to lower management squabbles for power and violent confrontations by small gangs of underlings looking to expand influence during the chaos or seize assets while everyone is looking at the boss battle. Very little commerce outside the city will transpire as only the foolhardy or the desperate would risk cargo and coins to trade in a pirate city for profits that can just be taken by the pirates. A constant reward for recruitment must also be offered as the dangerous life of pirates/bandits results in a high turnover rate for underlings murdered, killed in service, deserted, maimed, or discharged for being unfit.
The dials are in the players' hands for controlling how much to tax from the citizens and how much to keep for themselves. A 20% tax rate with 90% given up to maintain the status quo is, in my opinion, a workable strategy so long as the PCs manage the city without leaving to go on adventures. Corruption will be endemic but the 90% payout will contain it temporarily. Higher taxation or lower fiscal policy will lead to unrest and urban decay. Of course, all bets are off if the PCs leave the town for any length of time. And the proper management of all the government tasks to even arrive at these figures requires civil & governmental skills that most heroic classes don't even have. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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city tax funds
