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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 17:03:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
I'm sure I'll regret this, but can we PLEASE lay off the name calling? I don't care how upset you are, there's no need to disparage people and get so bent out of shape. We don't like what someone does so we call him a stupid poopey head? Seriously.. don't make me say it.
That being said, what ever happened to the concept of using what you like and discarding the rest? Yes I agree, this all looks to be more discard than use, but there is some interesting content if you are willing to look at it without getting bent out of shape.
Yes the "marriage" angle is just silly, but it's easy enough to put that asside and simply have Zuggy trying to gain power thru Auraumycos. She obviously does not control him simply because he's fungus. We know he's much more than a simple fungus, and despite being a Demon Lord, Zuggy's power in the realms is based on how active she has been there. This may be a ploy to gather a large amount of influence in the realms all at once.
I'll also be interested to see what the other Demon Lords do. We know Demogorgon seems set to run rampant in Menzoberranzan. That alone makes me wonder what his rampage will do to the Baenrae hold on power there. What about Graz'zt? Will his appearance in the realms cause Waukeen to get involved? (I imagine she's still pretty miffed with him). My all time favorite has to be Orcus however, I'd love to see him involved, but I do know that he was banished from the Realms and I don't know what kind of time frame was involved.
So yeah, there's probably a lot of silly stuff we don't want, but lets focus on ideas we COULD use. If were not going to be happy with what WOTC gives us, we could at least work up some ideas of our own.
Well said. I'm tired of seeing whole threads go down the whine trail. Let's do some constructive criticism for a change. Constructive criticism isn't "so-and-so I don't like needs to go away."
If someone doesn't like the marriage aspect, how would you tweak it to run the story in your home games? What aspects of the story do you enjoy or find intriguing?
The marriage thing is one aspect of a storyline we don't even have full details on yet, and even that idea is easily tweaked or explained, as you and I both have pointed out.
I'm looking forward to what ideas and such this adventure module generates. I'm loving the ideas I'm getting from the way they implement the madness rules from the DMG. Flavoring the type of madness to the type of demon is a great idea, one that I can readily use in my current games.
What if a demon lord did gain control of Araumycos? What would the end goal be? How would the demon use it to increase its power? Those are the kinds of speculation I'd prefer to see. Not this whine fest.
If you aren't using the storyline, how would you write it better? That is a conversation I'd be interested in. If you can't offer constructive alternatives, kindly say you don't like it and leave it at that.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
Edited by - Delwa on 26 Aug 2015 17:04:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 17:37:36
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I, personally, associated Zuggs with Greyhawk, because my first introduction to her was in the old Greyhawk novels (which I did not bother to replace, after the fire).
Since I associate her with Greyhawk, I'd prefer to keep her there, and use some home-grown nastybad to make a play for Araumycos.
That said, other than the marriage angle (which, admittedly, could be an oversimplification of the actual intent, or simply a poorly chosen word), I think Zuggs (as a power of fungus) trying to do something with Araumycos is a natural choice. It's actually a lot more reasonable to me than the whole thing of freeing Tiamat from somewhere that she wasn't, according to past lore...
I'm hoping we get some serious lore on Araumycos out of this, too. Araumycos is a fun guy ( ), but we know so little about it... Obviously, I don't want a Book That Tells All, but I'd love to have a page or two of lore that gives us some more material to play with. As I've commented before, I like playing in the grey areas between what is defined and what isn't -- but for Araumycos, I don't have enough defined to be able to do much. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 17:45:33
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| Perhaps having Auramycos in a current published adventure will give them a good excuse to allow Ed to release some Lore about it. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 17:47:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
If it's not a deity it's a mortal
Then explain primordials, fae, elementals... They are all immortal, but they are not deities.
They're mortals. Well primordials may be a category of their own.
Mortal doesn't refer to natural lifespan, but whether one possesses divinity or not.
A balor or a dracolich or a fire elemental are all mortals
quote:
Back to the binding, which one is more powerful doesn't really matter
going to disagree Herr. If She were to try such a stunt against bane for example it certainly would not end well for her.
She needs to be more powerful to force her groom to go along and to come out in top afterwards |
Edited by - Mirtek on 26 Aug 2015 17:52:53 |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 18:12:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
I'm sure I'll regret this, but can we PLEASE lay off the name calling? I don't care how upset you are, there's no need to disparage people and get so bent out of shape. We don't like what someone does so we call him a stupid poopey head? Seriously.. don't make me say it.
That being said, what ever happened to the concept of using what you like and discarding the rest? Yes I agree, this all looks to be more discard than use, but there is some interesting content if you are willing to look at it without getting bent out of shape.
Yes the "marriage" angle is just silly, but it's easy enough to put that asside and simply have Zuggy trying to gain power thru Auraumycos. She obviously does not control him simply because he's fungus. We know he's much more than a simple fungus, and despite being a Demon Lord, Zuggy's power in the realms is based on how active she has been there. This may be a ploy to gather a large amount of influence in the realms all at once.
I'll also be interested to see what the other Demon Lords do. We know Demogorgon seems set to run rampant in Menzoberranzan. That alone makes me wonder what his rampage will do to the Baenrae hold on power there. What about Graz'zt? Will his appearance in the realms cause Waukeen to get involved? (I imagine she's still pretty miffed with him). My all time favorite has to be Orcus however, I'd love to see him involved, but I do know that he was banished from the Realms and I don't know what kind of time frame was involved.
So yeah, there's probably a lot of silly stuff we don't want, but lets focus on ideas we COULD use. If were not going to be happy with what WOTC gives us, we could at least work up some ideas of our own.
Well said. I'm tired of seeing whole threads go down the whine trail. Let's do some constructive criticism for a change. Constructive criticism isn't "so-and-so I don't like needs to go away."
If someone doesn't like the marriage aspect, how would you tweak it to run the story in your home games? What aspects of the story do you enjoy or find intriguing?
The marriage thing is one aspect of a storyline we don't even have full details on yet, and even that idea is easily tweaked or explained, as you and I both have pointed out.
I'm looking forward to what ideas and such this adventure module generates. I'm loving the ideas I'm getting from the way they implement the madness rules from the DMG. Flavoring the type of madness to the type of demon is a great idea, one that I can readily use in my current games.
What if a demon lord did gain control of Araumycos? What would the end goal be? How would the demon use it to increase its power? Those are the kinds of speculation I'd prefer to see. Not this whine fest.
If you aren't using the storyline, how would you write it better? That is a conversation I'd be interested in. If you can't offer constructive alternatives, kindly say you don't like it and leave it at that.
I'll say what I like and I don't need anyone telling how I need to say it.
Cheers. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 18:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
quote:
Originally posted by Korginard
I'm sure I'll regret this, but can we PLEASE lay off the name calling? I don't care how upset you are, there's no need to disparage people and get so bent out of shape. We don't like what someone does so we call him a stupid poopey head? Seriously.. don't make me say it.
That being said, what ever happened to the concept of using what you like and discarding the rest? Yes I agree, this all looks to be more discard than use, but there is some interesting content if you are willing to look at it without getting bent out of shape.
Yes the "marriage" angle is just silly, but it's easy enough to put that asside and simply have Zuggy trying to gain power thru Auraumycos. She obviously does not control him simply because he's fungus. We know he's much more than a simple fungus, and despite being a Demon Lord, Zuggy's power in the realms is based on how active she has been there. This may be a ploy to gather a large amount of influence in the realms all at once.
I'll also be interested to see what the other Demon Lords do. We know Demogorgon seems set to run rampant in Menzoberranzan. That alone makes me wonder what his rampage will do to the Baenrae hold on power there. What about Graz'zt? Will his appearance in the realms cause Waukeen to get involved? (I imagine she's still pretty miffed with him). My all time favorite has to be Orcus however, I'd love to see him involved, but I do know that he was banished from the Realms and I don't know what kind of time frame was involved.
So yeah, there's probably a lot of silly stuff we don't want, but lets focus on ideas we COULD use. If were not going to be happy with what WOTC gives us, we could at least work up some ideas of our own.
Well said. I'm tired of seeing whole threads go down the whine trail. Let's do some constructive criticism for a change. Constructive criticism isn't "so-and-so I don't like needs to go away."
If someone doesn't like the marriage aspect, how would you tweak it to run the story in your home games? What aspects of the story do you enjoy or find intriguing?
The marriage thing is one aspect of a storyline we don't even have full details on yet, and even that idea is easily tweaked or explained, as you and I both have pointed out.
I'm looking forward to what ideas and such this adventure module generates. I'm loving the ideas I'm getting from the way they implement the madness rules from the DMG. Flavoring the type of madness to the type of demon is a great idea, one that I can readily use in my current games.
What if a demon lord did gain control of Araumycos? What would the end goal be? How would the demon use it to increase its power? Those are the kinds of speculation I'd prefer to see. Not this whine fest.
If you aren't using the storyline, how would you write it better? That is a conversation I'd be interested in. If you can't offer constructive alternatives, kindly say you don't like it and leave it at that.
I'll say what I like and I don't need anyone telling how I need to say it.
Cheers.
I think we're supposed to restrict our comments to a list of acceptable verbage for delicate sensibilities.
The list seems to keep moving, though, and I can never find it.
Edit: Confirmed!
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Wooly, can you please step in here?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 26 Aug 2015 18:31:06 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 18:31:57
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| Wooly, can you please step in here? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 19:03:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
going to disagree Herr. If She were to try such a stunt against bane for example it certainly would not end well for her.
She needs to be more powerful to force her groom to go along and to come out in top afterwards
Fair enough point if it were two beings of opposing goals/motivations. But in this case, they both have a thing for fungus. There's an implied level of mutual cooperation here, and if Araumycos is sufficiently impressed by Zug's wooing, it'll consent to the ritual.
Speculating here, but if Araumycos isn't willing, I'd imagine the ritual wouldn't work. It's kinda like that line from Princess Bride, "if you didn't say "I do," it isn't a marriage." We'll know more when the module releases, I guess.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 19:11:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
If it's not a deity it's a mortal
Then explain primordials, fae, elementals... They are all immortal, but they are not deities.
They're mortals. Well primordials may be a category of their own.
Mortal doesn't refer to natural lifespan, but whether one possesses divinity or not.
Actually, most definitions of mortal do indeed refer to a lifespan -- specifically, whether or not someone is subject to death of old age. "Mort" means death, so mortal means being subject to dying.
And in the Realms, fae, primordials, and elementals are all eternal entities. They are, therefore, immortal. They are not divine, but they are similarly not mortal. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 19:14:51
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| ...And the back and forth jabs at each does grow wearisome. Can we focus on the original topic, please? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 19:19:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The 5e D&D material is not meant for the 'Realms fanbois' (US), its made for the 12-14 year old crowd who are just getting into D&D. This is what happens when YOUR setting becomes the 'core' setting. Its no longer about the lore, its about fun modules you can enjoy with your friends. This is precisely the kind of thing I enjoyed back when I first started playing RPGs.
D&D is owned by a TOY COMPANY - they are aiming their products at an audience they understand. They have no idea how to sell to us. This is not meant as negative, BTW - its just the plain truth. I really wish people would stop expecting literature from a toy company.
What happened to us is like the difference between the old Teen Titan cartoon and the new one. Either enjoy what they are offering (and I AM, playing a game with my kids), or find a setting that is more mature and suits your tastes. FR has been dumbed-down to Greyhawk (and I am both a huge GH AND FR fan), and that was not due to 'lack of talent', but rather, due to a very specific target audience.
This particular adventure arc, though, I have NO INTENTION on running. My group is just going to stay on the Sword Coast and avoid all that High Forest silliness. If I want that stuff, I'll eat a nice salad (with mushrooms) covered in Blue Cheese dressing. Thats the only way I enjoy my mold on top of my fungus.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
This has Chris Perkins stink all over it.
Unless I was advanced for my age, I didn't think things like this were cool in any way. I asked my son, who is 13, what he felt and he said he doesn't find it appealing at all.
Also, from what we have been told, Hasbro doesn't make any of these decisions, they are down to WoTc and the people who work for them. Actually makes it even worse. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 19:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...And the back and forth jabs at each does grow wearisome. Can we focus on the original topic, please?
I've been on target the whole time.
Never wavered for a moment. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 19:46:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Unless I was advanced for my age, I didn't think things like this were cool in any way. I asked my son, who is 13, what he felt and he said he doesn't find it appealing at all.
Also, from what we have been told, Hasbro doesn't make any of these decisions, they are down to WoTc and the people who work for them. Actually makes it even worse.
Hence, why I ended my last post with, "I have no plans to run any of that". My sons are 13 and 17; I'm not sure about the 13 year old, but I know the 17 year old wouldn't enjoy that (a wedding between two parts of a salad).
Can they create quality for the 'young adult' market? Sure they can - I never said they couldn't. i just meant that we shouldn't expect that, not anymore.
And I know WotC is running the show, not Hasbro. But Hasbro is the 'big boss', and signs the paychecks. They even wanted to roll D&D into their 'Toys for Boys' dept. (and the fact that such a dept. still exist shows you just how out-dated their thinking is over there at Hasbro). Regardles, they made a decision way back at the end of 3e (when they began work on 4e) that us 'old fans' were no longer their target audience - that still holds true. A company's future CANNOT depend on a bunch of aging grognards - they need 'new blood'. that means, funny, over-the-top, 'Michael Bay-style' plots with little in the way of depth and lots of fun explosions and 'big monsters'. Its not that they are failing - it is that the goal they are reaching toward is NOT the same goal some of us think it is.
The fact that I see younger people now being drawn back to D&D means they are successful - at THEIR plan. You can't say they are failing when what you want is NOT what they ever had in mind. Its not about FR (the lore) anymore, its about 'the game'. I've noticed quite a bit of activity around these halls of late - would you call that 'a failure'? Interest is good for business.
That being said, I have no idea if this latest story-line is going to go over well, but I know I don't care, either. As I said, its not my cup of tea. I can break open a Volo's Guide and have a half-dozen adventure ideas in about ten minutes. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Aug 2015 19:48:32 |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 19:50:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
If it's not a deity it's a mortal
Then explain primordials, fae, elementals... They are all immortal, but they are not deities.
They're mortals. Well primordials may be a category of their own.
Mortal doesn't refer to natural lifespan, but whether one possesses divinity or not.
Actually, most definitions of mortal do indeed refer to a lifespan -- specifically, whether or not someone is subject to death of old age. "Mort" means death, so mortal means being subject to dying.
And in the Realms, fae, primordials, and elementals are all eternal entities. They are, therefore, immortal. They are not divine, but they are similarly not mortal.
In 3.x mortal explicitly refered to any being without divine rank. Any SDA saying "any mortal" would work against anything without at least divine rank 0, no matter whether it had a finite lifespan or not
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Fair enough point if it were two beings of opposing goals/motivations. But in this case, they both have a thing for fungus. There's an implied level of mutual cooperation here, and if Araumycos is sufficiently impressed by Zug's wooing, it'll consent to the ritual.
We're talking about a demon princess here. "Mutual", "cooperation" or "consent" are not part of her vocabulary
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
Speculating here, but if Araumycos isn't willing, I'd imagine the ritual wouldn't work.
Unless Zuggtmoy is too powerful for him to resist
quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
We'll know more when the module releases, I guess.
Definately |
Edited by - Mirtek on 26 Aug 2015 19:53:03 |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 21:04:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I guess I'm alone in not seeing what the big deal is... Zuggtmoy is all about the fungus and such, which Araumycos is. And it's not like Araumycos is some big, inanimate object -- see the below quote from Ed.
quote:
Araumycos is alive and sentient, but does not think as we do. It is magically bonded both to The High Forest above it and to the Weave which it in part anchors. The strong innate magic of that spot both feeds it and was the lure for those things it guards, simply by smothering them in its own body: the abandoned domiciles of ancient, now-vanished beings of several races who desired to master magic. Think of it as unslayable, un-conquerable -- and best left alone. There ARE a multitude of far easier foes and treasures in Faerun, awaiting even the most stubbornly foolish adventurers.
Note that this also give us some additional motivations for Zuggtmoy: if Araumycos anchors the Weave, can she somehow suborn/take advantage of that anchor? Do her plans involve something Araumycos is guarding?
Corrupt it and subsume a part of Toril and Araumycos, which then becomes part of her layer on the Abyss. Isn't that what demonlords like to do?
Indeed, demons, and fiends in general, are all about corrupting mortals to their cause.
How is this different from stories of Lolth sending the balor Wendonai to seduce the dark elves to her cause, with the result being some demonic taint present in the drow bloodlines.
We have no problems with demons and devils (some of whom have innate inhuman forms) and dragons (big magical lizards who have mated with everything) and even freaking humanoid squids (mindflayers) corrupting and consuming the essence of mortals, but fungus is breaking immersion?
Even the blurb in the link makes it clear a "marriage" is just a poetic description, it's actually a demonic ritual.
What have the Realms become? Some sort of constant grimdark wasteland filled with blood and guts ('two or four legged furries only, please') demons.
I swear at this point, Wizards could announce a reboot to the OGB and everyone here (the same peoples) would still complain. "The hardcover isn't the correct shade of 'dun silver', praise be to the Great Greenwood and Glorious Grubb."
This is the weird gonzo stuff that falls right in-line with the old school grognard vibe.
Who do you think created Zuggtmoy? It wasn't Chris Perkins.
The older edition materials were filled with puns and jokey stuff. Even Greenwood's writings aren't all serious all the time, but the skill of the veteran designers is they're able to segue between the silly and serious at the drop of a hat, turn a joke into a struggle for the fate of the world, or subvert the "big damn hero" stories into a slapstick routine. Nothing is sacred, nothing is unsalvageable, nothing is immutable.
What 4E got wrong was to think there were sacred cows to slaughter. Old D&D rode those cows to death, then resurrected them in dread necromancy rituals. In doing so their silly weird stuff will be remembered (and played) long after much of the 'serious' 'grimdark' stuff of 4E (and some of 3E, lets be honest, probably most of 5E from the looks of it) will be a neglected link at the bottom of DnD Classics.
Coming from someone who has mouthed off a few times about their dislike of Wizard's direction for the setting and the general decay of the Realms, I can appreciate when they're trying to be fun guys. Sometimes it's necessary to breakdown the familiar forms to plant spores for the future. At least every once in a while they're willing to break the mold.
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Korginard
Learned Scribe
USA
126 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 21:22:09
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quote:
Actually, most definitions of mortal do indeed refer to a lifespan -- specifically, whether or not someone is subject to death of old age. "Mort" means death, so mortal means being subject to dying.
And in the Realms, fae, primordials, and elementals are all eternal entities. They are, therefore, immortal. They are not divine, but they are similarly not mortal.
It's basically a matter of preference in how you use the words mortal and immortal.
In my mind "Immortal" would indeed include Elementals, Fae, basically any kind of outsider that does not age or die naturally. Even a Vampire or a Lich could be considered immortal, they already died but still exist and do not age as a mortal would. Thus immortality does not equate to divine power in my use of the word.
I tend to refer to Dieties as well.. Dieties, or Powers, Gods, what have you. I see Primordials as Titans in the old greek sense of the word. The Monster Manual variety of "Titan" are children of gods and primaordials, and still Immortal in my view.
Divinity would belong to those beings and powers that have worshipers on the material plane. This is why most elementals are not Gods, but Kossuth and Grumbar are. Some Demons have achieved levels of Divinity such as Lolth and Orcus (I do like to condider Orcus as at least a lesser god of Death. Those darn cultists again!)
I do like Asmodeus as a god so there's a Devil who's nabbed Divinity.
So.. that has me thinking. What about Mephistopheles, Mammon, Glasya and other Devils who have cults on the material plane? Are they Divine or do those worshipers ultimately gain power from Asmodeus?
What other outsiders may have some level of Divinity? I think some earlier editions of the game mentioned that Primus the head Modron may be somewhat divine. Would the Pasha of the City of Brass have a level of Divinity or would this super-Efreet Lord fall under Kossuth? If he's divine are there Djinn, Marid, and Dao divinities? |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 22:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I guess I'm alone in not seeing what the big deal is... Zuggtmoy is all about the fungus and such, which Araumycos is. And it's not like Araumycos is some big, inanimate object -- see the below quote from Ed.
quote:
Araumycos is alive and sentient, but does not think as we do. It is magically bonded both to The High Forest above it and to the Weave which it in part anchors. The strong innate magic of that spot both feeds it and was the lure for those things it guards, simply by smothering them in its own body: the abandoned domiciles of ancient, now-vanished beings of several races who desired to master magic. Think of it as unslayable, un-conquerable -- and best left alone. There ARE a multitude of far easier foes and treasures in Faerun, awaiting even the most stubbornly foolish adventurers.
Note that this also give us some additional motivations for Zuggtmoy: if Araumycos anchors the Weave, can she somehow suborn/take advantage of that anchor? Do her plans involve something Araumycos is guarding?
Corrupt it and subsume a part of Toril and Araumycos, which then becomes part of her layer on the Abyss. Isn't that what demonlords like to do?
Indeed, demons, and fiends in general, are all about corrupting mortals to their cause.
How is this different from stories of Lolth sending the balor Wendonai to seduce the dark elves to her cause, with the result being some demonic taint present in the drow bloodlines.
We have no problems with demons and devils (some of whom have innate inhuman forms) and dragons (big magical lizards who have mated with everything) and even freaking humanoid squids (mindflayers) corrupting and consuming the essence of mortals, but fungus is breaking immersion?
Even the blurb in the link makes it clear a "marriage" is just a poetic description, it's actually a demonic ritual.
What have the Realms become? Some sort of constant grimdark wasteland filled with blood and guts ('two or four legged furries only, please') demons.
I swear at this point, Wizards could announce a reboot to the OGB and everyone here (the same peoples) would still complain. "The hardcover isn't the correct shade of 'dun silver', praise be to the Great Greenwood and Glorious Grubb."
This is the weird gonzo stuff that falls right in-line with the old school grognard vibe.
Who do you think created Zuggtmoy? It wasn't Chris Perkins.
The older edition materials were filled with puns and jokey stuff. Even Greenwood's writings aren't all serious all the time, but the skill of the veteran designers is they're able to segue between the silly and serious at the drop of a hat, turn a joke into a struggle for the fate of the world, or subvert the "big damn hero" stories into a slapstick routine. Nothing is sacred, nothing is unsalvageable, nothing is immutable.
What 4E got wrong was to think there were sacred cows to slaughter. Old D&D rode those cows to death, then resurrected them in dread necromancy rituals. In doing so their silly weird stuff will be remembered (and played) long after much of the 'serious' 'grimdark' stuff of 4E (and some of 3E, lets be honest, probably most of 5E from the looks of it) will be a neglected link at the bottom of DnD Classics.
Coming from someone who has mouthed off a few times about their dislike of Wizard's direction for the setting and the general decay of the Realms, I can appreciate when they're trying to be fun guys. Sometimes it's necessary to breakdown the familiar forms to plant spores for the future. At least every once in a while they're willing to break the mold.
The problem with trying to compare then and now is the fact that they were putting out more product than they are now. There is nothing wrong with serious along side goofy when I have the option of buying either or. Wizards is flat out product starving us to the point where "we" want each product that comes out to be catered to our needs because we never know when the next product will come out. I am also familiar with Chris Perkins and I don't like his work at all and this AP has all the trimmings that are his MO.
Obviously Wizards still hasn't learned their lesson with regards to the FR fans. They still think there is this untapped legion of potential D&D fans just waiting to come out. Well there isn't, there is no more people playing D&D now than there were years ago. Geek is not the cool anymore. Video games used to by the "Geek", well what they have done with video games is make them no longer for geeks. They are going to try this with D&D and it will fail. D&D will "always" be a niche section of the market that everyone has heard of but not something everyone will be in to.
Chris Perkins doesn't know balance when it comes to his silly stuff. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 22:33:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
Indeed, demons, and fiends in general, are all about corrupting mortals to their cause.
How is this different from stories of Lolth sending the balor Wendonai to seduce the dark elves to her cause, with the result being some demonic taint present in the drow bloodlines.
We have no problems with demons and devils (some of whom have innate inhuman forms) and dragons (big magical lizards who have mated with everything) and even freaking humanoid squids (mindflayers) corrupting and consuming the essence of mortals, but fungus is breaking immersion?
I think one major difference is that most players (as least the ones I play with) generally feel that human and demi-human life is worth saving - and worth risking one's life.
What's the motivation to save a big fungus?
I'd have the same reaction if Zuggtmoy decided to feed upon a really huge portobello or a romanesco cauliflower. Araumycos and logarithmic spirals are both sort of interesting, but food is still food.
If the idea is that we're supposed to save the Drow from rampaging fungi, I don't really get much of a pull for that. Why can't the drow handle the two weakest demon lords, or at least rally to send them back without surface aid? And why, exactly should we feel compelled to help save the drow anyway after all they've done in Realms history?
It's one thing to have a really wacky idea and execute it in an interesting, compelling way that makes you think of larger ramifications than the base kookiness of it all. But I don't yet have any impression at all that this is going to be the case.
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Even the blurb in the link makes it clear a "marriage" is just a poetic description, it's actually a demonic ritual.
What have the Realms become? Some sort of constant grimdark wasteland filled with blood and guts ('two or four legged furries only, please') demons.
I swear at this point, Wizards could announce a reboot to the OGB and everyone here (the same peoples) would still complain. "The hardcover isn't the correct shade of 'dun silver', praise be to the Great Greenwood and Glorious Grubb."
If WotC rebooted to the OGB and went forward promising less cheese, I would sing their praises to the heavens. Have them do it, I will prove my words.
quote:
This is the weird gonzo stuff that falls right in-line with the old school grognard vibe.
Who do you think created Zuggtmoy? It wasn't Chris Perkins.
It certainly falls in line with Gygax's kookier moments, I grant you that. But many people turned away from Greyhawk and toward the OGB of the Realms precisely because of the periodic wacky stuff they'd put in. If you keep importing Greyhawk wackiness into the Realms, at what point are the Realms all that different than Greyhawk? (And BTW, thanks to Dave Arneson and others, Greyhawk isn't all clown demons and instant death shredders).
quote:
Coming from someone who has mouthed off a few times about their dislike of Wizard's direction for the setting and the general decay of the Realms, I can appreciate when they're trying to be fun guys. Sometimes it's necessary to breakdown the familiar forms to plant spores for the future. At least every once in a while they're willing to break the mold.
So will you import this material, will you use it in your games?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 23:04:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
What's the motivation to save a big fungus?
Not saving the fungus, preventing Zuggtmoy from gaining whatever she hopes to gain.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
Why can't the drow handle the two weakest demon lords, or at least rally to send them back without surface aid?
Because the weakest demonlords are still demonlords
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
And why, exactly should we feel compelled to help save the drow anyway after all they've done in Realms history?
Once they're done with the drow they'll come up. Of course causing as much collateral damage to the drow while "saving" them would certainly be appreciated.
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 23:15:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
Not saving the fungus, preventing Zuggtmoy from gaining whatever she hopes to gain.
Wooly did mention the idea that Zuggtmoy might be after Araumycos because (as Ed noted) it is tied to the Weave in a special way, and that it feeds off magic. That might be a fair motivation to get involved, but the whole angle of "oh noes, the Weave is in danger" has been in overdrive since mid-3E.
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Because the weakest demonlords are still demonlords.
I guess. But if you follow the snippets they've been releasing, "Zuggtmoy's Handmaidens" have a Challenge Rating of 1/8 and neither Zuggtmoy nor Juiblex (perhaps Ghaunadaur) are listed. It's possible they have unique "boss" stats somewhere else, but so far it's been suggested that players will be too low level to face them anyway. So why use two of the most "meh" demon lords if you don't even get to fight them?
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Once they're done with the drow they'll come up. Of course causing as much collateral damage to the drow while "saving" them would certainly be appreciated.
I suppose.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 23:47:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
The problem with trying to compare then and now is the fact that they were putting out more product than they are now. There is nothing wrong with serious along side goofy when I have the option of buying either or. Wizards is flat out product starving us to the point where "we" want each product that comes out to be catered to our needs because we never know when the next product will come out. I am also familiar with Chris Perkins and I don't like his work at all and this AP has all the trimmings that are his MO.
Perhaps, but it's more product than during 4E. They are providing choices with dragons, elemental evils, or second tier demons. Until there are announcements of no more adventures, I will assume there are more.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Obviously Wizards still hasn't learned their lesson with regards to the FR fans. They still think there is this untapped legion of potential D&D fans just waiting to come out. Well there isn't, there is no more people playing D&D now than there were years ago. Geek is not the cool anymore. Video games used to by the "Geek", well what they have done with video games is make them no longer for geeks. They are going to try this with D&D and it will fail. D&D will "always" be a niche section of the market that everyone has heard of but not something everyone will be in to.
Chris Perkins doesn't know balance when it comes to his silly stuff.
Geek has been cooler than it's ever been. The board game industry is experiencing unprecedented growth and Wizards believes they're tapped into a portion of that with 5E. The same goes for Pathfinder, and AGE, and Fantasy Flight's Star Wars. Even the OSR hasn't skipped a beat.
GenCon had so many attendees the convention and local facilities and support infrastructure is bursting at the seams. Comic conventions are breaking records. PAX is opening up sold out conventions across the world.
Just because the situation for FR might suck, doesn't mean the geek world at large stopped.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
I think one major difference is that most players (as least the ones I play with) generally feel that human and demi-human life is worth saving - and worth risking one's life.
What's the motivation to save a big fungus?
I am Groot?
It's all about how they present it. Not saying they will be as adept as other writers, but I'll give them a chance and wait for the details.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
It certainly falls in line with Gygax's kookier moments, I grant you that. But many people turned away from Greyhawk and toward the OGB of the Realms precisely because of the periodic wacky stuff they'd put in. If you keep importing Greyhawk wackiness into the Realms, at what point are the Realms all that different than Greyhawk? (And BTW, thanks to Dave Arneson and others, Greyhawk isn't all clown demons and instant death shredders).
That's not what I hear regarding Greyhawk. Many felt it was sidelined to lessen Gygax's influence on the game, the Realms gave them a setting that was not his. Fans of the setting feel it is a far more interesting setting than anything the Realms could dream of putting out and they feel some of the Realms elements (Chosen/Elminster/Mary Sue characters, good Drow infestation, melodrama deities, keystone cop Zhents, etc) are the truly clownish components.
Some fans even claim Greyhawk is the game setting with the most ever written about it, because they count the massive amount of stuff produced during the Living Greyhawk era (while novels are two line summaries worth of gaming material).
Some swear by Blackmoor as the most compelling, due to it being Dave's setting.
Others feel Mystara was the best worldly setting of TSR.
Others go outside of TSR to the Wilderlands. Or Tekumel. Or Warhammer Fantasy.
We're biased because this is a FR forum.
It's all perspective really, there are truths behind all of it, good and bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
So will you import this material, will you use it in your games?
If I had a need for a fungal villain, sure. I'd adapt it at the least.
Though I'm probably biased. Not long ago, I submitted a monster for a bestiary, it was the Oozasis (oasis ooze). I'm not above a pun or and a weird monster. The submission passed through several professional developers and editors and was published, so I'm not the only one. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 23:59:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
The problem with trying to compare then and now is the fact that they were putting out more product than they are now. There is nothing wrong with serious along side goofy when I have the option of buying either or. Wizards is flat out product starving us to the point where "we" want each product that comes out to be catered to our needs because we never know when the next product will come out. I am also familiar with Chris Perkins and I don't like his work at all and this AP has all the trimmings that are his MO.
Perhaps, but it's more product than during 4E. They are providing choices with dragons, elemental evils, or second tier demons. Until there are announcements of no more adventures, I will assume there are more.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Obviously Wizards still hasn't learned their lesson with regards to the FR fans. They still think there is this untapped legion of potential D&D fans just waiting to come out. Well there isn't, there is no more people playing D&D now than there were years ago. Geek is not the cool anymore. Video games used to by the "Geek", well what they have done with video games is make them no longer for geeks. They are going to try this with D&D and it will fail. D&D will "always" be a niche section of the market that everyone has heard of but not something everyone will be in to.
Chris Perkins doesn't know balance when it comes to his silly stuff.
Geek has been cooler than it's ever been. The board game industry is experiencing unprecedented growth and Wizards believes they're tapped into a portion of that with 5E. The same goes for Pathfinder, and AGE, and Fantasy Flight's Star Wars. Even the OSR hasn't skipped a beat.
GenCon had so many attendees the convention and local facilities and support infrastructure is bursting at the seams. Comic conventions are breaking records. PAX is opening up sold out conventions across the world.
Just because the situation for FR might suck, doesn't mean the geek world at large stopped.
Geek has pretty much stopped. They have just managed to make a lot of things that were held in high regard by geeks cool by everyone. Liking comicbooks and things associated with comicbooks are not seen as geeky anymore.
Not really sure how boardgames come into play because boardgames have been played by all walks of life for a long time now. Pax is primarily video games which have nothing to do with geeks anymore. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 00:20:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Wizard
I am Groot?
Groot is love, Groot is life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GncYQHBJIw
quote:
It's all about how they present it. Not saying they will be as adept as other writers, but I'll give them a chance and wait for the details.
That's fair.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 00:22:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Geek has pretty much stopped. They have just managed to make a lot of things that were held in high regard by geeks cool by everyone. Liking comicbooks and things associated with comicbooks are not seen as geeky anymore.
Not really sure how boardgames come into play because boardgames have been played by all walks of life for a long time now. Pax is primarily video games which have nothing to do with geeks anymore.
Then what's the problem with geek stuff going more mainstream?
Or do you mean geek as in obscure, niche stuff? Isn't what what people derisively call hipsters nowadays. "I was into elves and dragons before the movies made them popular."
Should people stop watching Game of Thrones or the Walking Dead because it one contains dragons and the other zombies? Like the good old days? "Your hobby better have none of that witchcraft and satanism, boy."
Or should we be geeking out for the fact that everyone is geeking out. Shouldn't be we embracing everyone since everyone is finally 'seeing the light' in that speculative genre stuff is no longer relegated to the niche of infantile dross, the providence of impressionable youths and the stereotyped pimply-face, socially-awkward, single-for-life man-children.
True PAX has a lot of video games (what's not geeky about fighting orcs and dragons on a computer? Or playing the part of a special ops team with nanosuits?), but board games and RPGs are a big part of it.
As are comics. Why are comics not geeky anymore? Because they have record breaking movie franchises? Superheroes have always had populst TV shows and movies, even radio plays in the days before TV. Did comicbook characters become ungeeky because of popular radio plays from the 1930s and 40s?
Correct me if I'm reading your response wrong. |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 00:23:08
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One of the creatures in the AP is a Bridesmaid of Zuggtmoy.  |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
Edited by - Shadowsoul on 27 Aug 2015 00:23:37 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 00:29:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
One of the creatures in the AP is a Bridesmaid of Zuggtmoy.
Always a bridesmaid, never - uhm - never a myconid?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 00:33:57
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Also I noticed the highest CR creature on the list is a CR 4. They've really dubbed down the creatures in this edition.
Here is the list: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2851-OU-OF-THE-ABYSS-Has-Derro-Check-Them-Out!#.Vd5M0pfKNCM |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 00:38:09
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| It's a low level adventure, no? |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 00:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Also I noticed the highest CR creature on the list is a CR 4. They've really dubbed down the creatures in this edition.
Here is the list: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2851-OU-OF-THE-ABYSS-Has-Derro-Check-Them-Out!#.Vd5M0pfKNCM
Yeah, I think this is part of the reason why many people think that players won't be fighting Zuggtmoy or Juiblex (maybe Ghaunadaur) at all, or at least not engaging them directly, during the AP.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2015 : 01:06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
Also I noticed the highest CR creature on the list is a CR 4. They've really dubbed down the creatures in this edition.
Here is the list: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?2851-OU-OF-THE-ABYSS-Has-Derro-Check-Them-Out!#.Vd5M0pfKNCM
Yeah, I think this is part of the reason why many people think that players won't be fighting Zuggtmoy or Juiblex (maybe Ghaunadaur) at all, or at least not engaging them directly, during the AP.
That's possible, but note the wording. New Monsters and NPCs by CR. It's possible they are using higher CR Monsters from the MM, and thus they don't make the list.
Also, large groups of monsters in a single encounter are wicked, and the CR of the encounter goes up greatly. Considering we're dealing with spores and spore like things, that could be very possible.
I doubt that we'll be fighting the Demon lords directly, but the adventure is slated the same as Rise of Tiamat; it takes you up to level 15, according to the adventure's page on WotC. We faced Tiamat in her respective adventure, we might well be facing a few demon lords and ladies here. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Spoilers: Rage of Demons / Out of the Abyss story
