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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2015 : 14:59:44
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I'm happy you like my ideas Markustay, and yeah, Blackmoor humans would make perfectly the human creator race.
Although in my oppinion, they made sure somewhay humans would re-evolve if it goes extincr, or evolves independantly on other worlds, and that's why we have humanity on so many worlds. Especialy if we consider that there are clues Mystara takes place on our Earth, but 152 million years ago.
Earth 152 million years ago:
http://geomaps.wr.usgs.gov/parks/pltec/sc152ma.html
Mystara:
http://pandius.com/master-outer-world-colour.png
And I very like your musings on Chthon/Azathoth, and Wooly's ideas of the pieces of a fallen god.
And about Asgorath, yeah I got some Lovecraftian vibes from her, and I think the authors of the first Draconomicon, made her name intentionay similar to Azathoth(as well Asherah/Ashirat/Atirat and Astarte/Astaroth)
[EDIT]
Cananite/Urgatic mythology in general is very interesting. Asherah/Ashirat/Atirat is there the wife of El/Ilah/Elohim/Yahweh. Urgatic myhs predatic the Bible, aslo have god of Morning Star, Astar/Helel, try to usurp the throne of the Supreme god, either Yahweh/El or Baal, depending on version. Astar/Helel actualy is mentioned in the Bible, in the book of Book of Isaiah, but praticaly always, the name Helel, is translated as Lucifer...
Cananite/Urgatic mythology, also has other forces of evil, like Mot. Mot is both mentioned as primordial mass, out of which the universe arose, but also the gluttonous death, that wants to devour all existence. Urgaitic myhts are very old, while the oldest known versions have been written down only 2000 B.C., Urgaitic civilisations existed for eleven thousand years, with city of Jericho being build 9000 B.C.
[EDIT2]
Further similarities can be also seen between Asherah, and Asgoroth too. While Asherah is most obviously connected to the Mesopotamian Ishar/Inanna she also has connections to Tiamat. Asherah is also he Mother of Gods, and Goddess of Sea, and is known as Ashiratu Yam/Ashirat Yammu(Asherah of the Sea). The word "Yam", is also quite probably connected to the name Tiamat(T'Yam'At). Seeing how Tiamat and Asgorath seem allways to be connected in some way... |
Edited by - Baltas on 17 Jul 2015 16:48:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2015 : 16:42:23
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Don't forget that Bahamut = Behemoth and Tiamet = Leviathan (the Biblical Behemoth and Leviathan, not the D&D version). I had another theory (way back when I first started my proto-mythos) that Tiamet and Bahamut where supposed to be the Chaotic versions of Ahriman and Jazirian (perhaps corrupted/created by Chthon), but after loosing in that first Godwar, they agreed to have their 'chaos' removed as punishment (thus, making them lawful in the current timeframe). I assume it took a bunch of gods (or maybe just one Supernal) to strip-away the chaos from the minds of those two, but it never dawned on me - where did that chaos go? When we are dealing with beings of this magnitude of power - primal beings of elemental & celestial nature - it would make some sense if that chaos somehow manifested a life of its own? Could that be one of these ancient, 'elemental evils', like Tharizdun? Are those the bits that Chthon was able to psionically implant in Behemoth (Bahamut) and Leviathan (Tiamet), that are now basically just 'globs of pure chaos' corrupting this side of the barrier (from The Far Realms)?
If such things are possible, then what about that bit of 'chaos' (insanity) that was torn out of Halastar by Mystra and flung at Asmodeus? That could make a great vehicle to restore Azuth (and then maybe Mystra) to The Realms - if Asmodeus detects the 'corruption' within him growing, and needs to expunge ALL foreign thoughts from his mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Although in my oppinion, they made sure somewhay humans would re-evolve if it goes extincr, or evolves independantly on other worlds, and that's why we have humanity on so many worlds. Especialy if we consider that there are clues Mystara takes place on our Earth, but 152 million years ago.
The nature of the Shattered First World - the Multiverse - allowed for not only a primeval 'seeding' of the Creator Races on almost every single fragment (the Crystal Spheres), but we also have magic (and maybe tech) that allows a constant cross-pollination of cultures and creatures. If a race dies-out somewhere, it can easily show back up later. I never really thought about each world carrying its own 'data-base' of DNA - so that flora and fauna can be replaced if destroyed - that would actually make for an interesting RW theory to tack-on to Darwin's evolution (and perfectly feasible - they now know that traits {DNA} can be passed-on to creatures by other means then reproduction). Each world in the D&D universe essentially becomes a 'Spaceship Earth', of sorts. The spheres are like the 'cells' of the universe itself, each one carrying the information it needs to re-grow the First World. Things evolve slightly differently, because the environmental conditions are nver precisely the same. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Jul 2015 17:26:47 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2015 : 17:34:41
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Indeed, DNA can be passed on by other means than reproduction, like Bacterial conjugation, or viruses fully merging with a cell, instead of using it as a method of reproduction. Good observations of Behemoth-Bahamut, and Tiamat-Leviatan. Although in Urgaithic myths, Leviathan was separate from it's mother Ashiratu Yam, and Leviathan known as Yammu-Lotan. Interesingly, Lotan the Leviathan is one of Tiamat's children, in Brian R. James 'Reign of Dragons', from Candlekeep Compendium IV. Lotan is also the mother of the Tarrasque...
Mot could be connected to Chthon, as Mot was a very chthonic deity, and Mot may have been an inspiration for the Greeks ideas of their chthonic gods and places, like Erebos, Tartaros, Hades, Thanatos etc.. Mot is sometimes described as El/Yahweh's and Asherah's child, but at other times, seems to be a separate, possibly even older force, of chaos, creation, rot, gluttony and death.
Also, curiously, Gilgeam fough Ilneval during the Orcgate Wars. Dazzlerdal suggested that Ilneval's blade was poisoned with pure evil, is the cause if Gilgeam's fall into evil. One could spin it so that the idea of poisoning the blade, was Gruumsh's idea. This way, Gruumsh could have a part in Gilgeam/Gilgamesh becoming Bane, and somewhat poeticaly, the architect of his own death.
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Edited by - Baltas on 17 Jul 2015 17:44:09 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 02:33:29
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Amazing. Absolutely Amazing... I had some more time to read the scroll, and everyone's got some great ideas in here. I'm going stick with Markustay's Bullet-point format just to keep things organized, because we've got a lot going on (I am going to apologize now, just in case this turns into a rambling wall of text).
-Azathoth: I am also of the mind set that Azathoth is Asgorath from the Draconic creation myth. However, as with all the creation myths, I the dragons have twisted the story to suit themselves... I think the God-Shard idea is a home-run, and it fits well into my IO concept to have it be the fragment that was taken by the "Renegade".
-The Renegade: I have been speculating for a while that the "Renegade" may have been Jergal, and that he used the Supreme Throne to escape from Asgorath and find the Fugue Plane, perhaps as a way to hide the Crystal Spire from the Batrachi... Jergal may even be a "Renegade" Batrachi. I have some other ideas about Jergal's origin and purpose, but this one seemed relevant to the God-Shard concept.
-The Fracturing & God-Shards: Wooly's idea about the god-shard's immediately made me start thinking that if the Batrachi were part of the first world, they may have caused the Fracturing... Or perhaps the Fracturing occurred as a sort of "scorched earth" strategy to prevent the Batrachi from controlling it. This provides a rationale to suggest that they may have created the Supreme Throne to try and find god-shards that are spread through the multi-verse. The fact that crystals (which may be god-shards) are often used by the gods to contain or trap destructive entities, implies that perhaps the Batrachi could use the god-shards to contain or trap deities.
-The Batrachi: I've been contemplating the question of "What are they?" for a while... and although they are described as "amphibious", I suspect this more a side effect of their initial interest in Ramenos. Markustay's "shadowy creatures" reference combined with the description of the Supreme Throne as a place of howling winds that can cause madness made their name appear to me as "BAT RACHI". Perhaps alongside their creation of the Supreme Throne they developed a parallel functionality on a planar level. Bats thrive in total darkness by using echolocation, and have to emit a sound to do so (howling winds of madness). The various diets of Bats include Insects, Fruit, Nectar, and Blood... Jergal is often described as insectoid, and in my mind I connected the others to the Celestial (Tree), Faerie (Flower), and Fiendish (River of Blood) planes respectively. Bats in mythology are connected to Dreams, Illusions, Invisibility, Madness, Prophecy, Souls and Reincarnation. This makes me think that perhaps the Batrachi developed a way to feed on Divine Energy (perhaps Dreams and Souls are a form of that same Energy). It's a pretty short leap from there to Cyric having "Bats in the Belfry" (sorry, I couldn't resist the pun)... Also, this "planar echolocation" could be a mechanism for them to use the Supreme Throne to track down the God-Shards.
-The Dreams of Ramenos: Using the above scenario, the fact that Bats are linked to Dreams suggests that since Ramenos is "sleeping" perhaps he isn't their creator, and is instead one of their first "divine" food/energy sources. And that feeding on his energy is what caused the Batrachi to begin resembling his form. Similarly, this makes any of the "sleeping" gods or demons potential sources of energy that could alter the physical appearance of the Batrachi... Perhaps the Batrachi empire would have recovered from it's conflict with the Giants, if it weren't for the arrival of the Elves (who don't sleep or dream).
-The Batrachi Races: The fracturing concept also suggests to me that their creations do not reflect the physical form of Batrachi, but instead each have a function or ability that either tie back to a higher (deity-level) function or ability of the original Batrachis... Or that these races were essentially experiments that would culminate in them creating the Supreme Throne in an attempt to ascend to divine status. Either way, I see four of their created races corresponding to an original form or divine strategy:
-Doppelganger: Create copies of individuals
-Illithids: Control minds of individuals
-Kuo-Toa: Creation of new/temporary divine entities
-Slaadi: Reproduction by infecting/destroying a host entity
...Basically, "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" but at a Divine Level.
-The Deity Fungus: Finally circling back to Moander and Cyric now... Bats have two big health risks to people. The first is Histoplasmosis, a Fungal Infection from prolonged exposure to bat poop. While I think that it is possible that Moander is a Batrachi, I think another possibility is that "Old Moldy" may have been trapped by the Batrachi and that his current form is a result of prolonged Batrachi imprisonment. The other Moander scenario in my head is that he is the result of the Batrachi applying their Slaadi concept to a divine entity... suggesting a reason why he "infected" Tyche, and a "dark" version was subsequently extracted from her.
-The Deity Virus: A possibility for Cyric's insanity upon ascension to divinity is the Rabies concept (since Rabies causes a type of destructive insanity). The Godsbane sword fed on souls in a manner that was similar to the concept I presented above. So, in this scenario I am suggesting that Godsbane may have been a God-Shard corrupted by the Batrachi... and if there is a first Batrachi to ascend to divine status, I think Mask is a likely candidate. Other deities that are "insane" may have been afflicted by a similar encounter with the Batrachi.
-The Angharradh Effect: My favorite piece of the lore about the Seldarine is the creation of Angharradh, which is why I decided to do a parallel scenario in my home campaign by creating Malekith through the Orc & Goblin gods. However, I have never liked the idea that Angharradh still existed after Akadi, Selune, and Sune reverted back to their original selves... until this discussion about the Batrachi... If we indulge the divine "Body Snatcher" scenario, Angharradh's continued existence makes more sense. Either the entity claiming to be Angharradh is a Batrachi now, or the entities claiming to be Akadi, Selune, and Sune are Batrachi... If the latter is true, then it brings into question Lathander and Tyr as well, since they would be with "Batrachi Sune" when they imprison Cyric on the Supreme Throne.
...Whew!... I'm glad I got that Divine Batrachi-Doppelganger Conspiracy out of my head... Hopefully, that didn't fly too far off the rails. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 04:38:02
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The Deity-virus point really stands out to me - it sounds a lot like my idea of how 'corruption' (chaos) and 'taint' (evil) works.
In the beginning all were 'pure' beings, working together (a Celestial Bureaucracy) to build the universe (and now my thoughts are wondering back to that gem of an old movie, Time Bandits). Corruption comes from the outside - it somehow leaks into this universe from the Far Realms (probably through psionics - make sure you carry an Elder Sign!) I liken this to your 'moldy' concept with the Bat poop (and now I have to wonder if the Joker is insane because of his proximity to Batman  ).
The Demons are elementals that became corrupted - I think maybe when they were all building the universe in the beginning, some of them may have 'dug too deep' in the underways of the cosmos. they literally uncovered something better left buried. That reminds me of the story of the Black Diamond and how the Queen of Air and darkness was created from the Fey. Something MAJOR has been helping Chthon since the very beginning, and the universe is seeded with these deeply-buried bits of 'Elemental Evil'. Or maybe, 'GOD' (the universe's consciousness) didn't do as great a job as it thought expunging the chaos from its burgeoning sentience. Little bits of chaos still linger in the deepest recesses of its mind (maybe they all look like giant black jewels - once again think about the 'Pure Evil' from Time Bandits).
But what about 'Evil' itself? Shouldn't that have come from a different source? Evil is born of THIS universe (although one could argue the antideluvian horrors in The Far Realms would be both chaotic AND evil). Could 'evil' be a side effect of chaos? I am not really seeing that - chaos is Ammoral, whereas evil is Immoral. Could evil have actually existed before there was a 'moral compass'? Could Evil - like Death - have come about as the result of the Godwar? Its seems to me without religion - and therefore deities - you couldn't have 'Evil'; there would be no set of rules against which to judge actions. That would mean it would have taken the birth of the first deities to have Evil come into the world.
If we take the story of how Asmodeus (Lucifer) was a 'Fallen Archangel', and he was a general in a 'godwar' - one who was in charge of 'punishing' the other side - then we would have to accept his actions (creating hell) were NOT evil... not until others (deities and their followers) looked upon his actions and called them 'evil'. Hmmmm... I am boxing myself into a philosophical corner now. There is no evil... not really... just what one (religious) person calls someone else who disagrees with their actions. Regardless...
Hell was created, and the 'gods' judged those actions to be evil, and thus Asmodeus was branded the 'High Evil' of the multiverse. Seems a bit heavy-handed, considering he was just being logical and gave them a solution to their problem.
Split for brevity.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jul 2015 04:38:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 04:39:08
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WAIT... did demons predate devils? 
What if the Devils came first - at least the greater bulk of them? There may have been a few 'Archdemons' around near the beginning - guys like Druaga (who is supposed to be a 'devil ruler', and yet looks and behaves like a demon, and has no place in Hell's hierarchy). Just a few 'big bads' that got corrupted early-on, and they could have come from a number of sources - corrupted celestials, Elemental Nobles (genies), even fallen angels (thus Druaga may have been another archangel who helped Lu.. Asmodeus create hell, and then got ousted when he became corrupted with chaos). I am sure a few of them got turned-out in the first few eaons.
But what of the greater bulk of the demons - the 'endless armies' of them? What if the creation of Hell - the literally 'digging into the universe's deepest levels' - is what uncovered so much of the buried chaos? What if the Abyss broke off from the Hells - what if it was really the tenth layer and they just dug too deep? What if the Abyss isn't truly endless - it just appears so in an ever-expanding universe? What if that hole at the bottom is a tear in reality that allows stuff from the Far Realms to seep in?
I just finished Dan Brown's Inferno, and now I get a different picture in my head - a variation from what Dante thought. In his Inferno you had to get past Satan (Asmodeus/Lucifer) to get into purgatory. Our D&D afterlife has no purgatory to speak of - maybe Christian mythology has The Abyss confused with that? Or maybe The Abyss was the original Hel - one the devils abandoned when the corruption started seeping in. Thats why they didn't make the new one bottomless! At one time, souls that weren't truly good or wholly evil went to the abyss - purgatory.
What if that automatic system is still in place?
What if thats what religion is all about? The first afterlife - the one for 'everyone' - is broken, and now you have to find a way to go to a 'private' one?
So Hel (Hades) was a 'one size fits all' afterlife, and Hell is the new, improved version (for people who haven't 'found god'). The plane was called the 'Home Eternal' because it was the final resting place for the soul.
HE I = First Afterlife (which turned into The Abyss), and
HE II = Second Afterlife, which was built when they 1st became corrupted.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jul 2015 04:43:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 06:07:59
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I've had another idea...
I've never been a fan of the two worlds thing, but taking my original thinking a bit further gives me a new idea.
What if the whole war against the Dawn Titans was just PR cooked up somewhere along the way, or even a horrible misunderstanding of the true events?
Maybe what really happened is there was an insanely powerful evil deity, on the verge of taking over everything. The gods all banded together and managed to defeat -- but not entirely destroy -- this deity, whom I shall dub Uberbad.
They broke him up into a bunch of pieces, but that still wasn't enough -- so the Sundering of Abeir-Toril into two worlds was done to further separate those pieces and diminish Uberbad's power.
More of his essence went to Abeir, and caused its share of divinities to not be such nice guys, but the other pieces, my earlier mentioned godshards, remained on Toril.
And just to fold in yet another thought I once had... I once suggested a connection betwixt Lathander and Moander. I'm not a fan of making connections based on similar names, but one represents one end of the life cycle, and the other represents the other end -- and they both have the "-ander" suffix. So I once suggested that "Moalath" was once a single neutral deity, representing the entire cycle of life, but something happened (like with Tyche), causing him to split into the good deity of rebirth and the evil deity of rot. So what if that split was caused by one of Uberbad's shards? Moalath found it, did something stupid, and Lathander and Moander were the result. Moander could even be something akin to an avatar of Uberbad. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 06:48:08
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Good points Markustay... Asmodeus is actually a prime example of why I am perpetually skeptical of Corellon, because they both are invested in the perpetuation of an evil (that they had a hand in creating) which generates a self-reinforcing justification for their eternal leadership in confronting it. The story of Corellon and Araunshaee is literally an elven interpretation of the story of King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, which suggests that Corellon and Asmodeus have more to do with each other than they would like people to believe. Here are a few examples (which suggest some interesting possibilities if you substitute Corellon in place of Solomon):
The Seal of Solomon: Solomon had a Magic Ring that gave him the ability to control demons/devils. He used this ring to boss around Asmodeus, and compelled Devils to build his temple.
The Devil-Solomon: There is also a myth about Asmodeus tricking Solomon into taking off the Ring. Asmodeus throws it away, and Solomon has to go track it down. While Solomon is on his quest, Asmodeus uses magic to look like Solomon and seize the Throne.
Lolth(Sheba) the Victim: While the Queen of Sheba is cast as being related to Lillith & Demons in some myths... There is a notable myth about Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, in which there are Demons/Devils in Solomon's court that are fearful that he will marry the Queen of Sheba. So, they spread rumors about her purity, causing Solomon to distrust her. When the Queen of Sheba meets Solomon she walks across a glass floors. She is confused and thinks she is walking across water, so she lifts her skirt to make sure it doesn't get wet. Solomon, of course, sees this and believes the rumours, then commands his devils to reprimand her.
Corellon the Fallen Angel: Finally, there are couple of angels/devils that have names that are suspiciously similar to Corellon Larethian... Sonellion & Leviathan... Make of all these things what you will, but I've always thought Corellon was hiding something. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 08:04:27
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Indeed, the Queen of Sheba was sometimes identified with Lilith, but seemed to embody Lilith's more benevolent aspects. Lilith herself, in the oldest Hebrew stories didn't seem to be 100% evil. She was at least once described as "not an enemy of the Lord(Yahweh), but of Mankind". In fact, it's Yahweh that gives her wings, when she flees Adam.
About Lolth, an interesting bit is in the Green Ronin book, Plot and Poison: A Guidebook to Drow. There she is is presented as actually starting out very benevolent, trying to help Drow after their banishment by Corellon(called here only as the "Lord of the Elven Pantheon", due to copyright laws), by giving drow all of her magic essence to let them survive. Lolth(called here only the Spider Queen, also due to copyright laws), thought that would be dying gift, but it caused to drow to worship her fervently, and multiply in number, greatly strenghtening Lolth. And so, the more power she gave away, the more she gained from the drow elves worship, and ever growing number. But the drow becoming very greedy in their prayers, always wanting more, as well as the constant cycle of giving her power away to near death, and regaining it more than ever, caused Lolth go insane. Visions from Lolth's to her worshippers, became contradictory, and erratic. Fanaticism started to grow among her worshippers, and causing them, and therefore drow society in general, becoming more brutal. Lolth started to take liking to her once beloved children slaughtering each-other in her name, considering it an appropriate punishment for their greed and selfishness.
And with this, is born the Chicken and Egg question. Did Lolth corrupt the drow, or did the drow corrupt Lolth?
This also fits with Planescape's idea, that the worshippers nature, and alignment, can affect and even change the alignment and very nature of the power/deity. |
Edited by - Baltas on 18 Jul 2015 08:07:42 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 08:08:35
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Hmmmmm... you just reminded me of an old ST episode in which a group of primitive types (who for some reason had The Bible) thought Spock was 'The Devil' because he looked a lot like him in a picture (angular features, pointy ears, downward-pointing eyebrows, etc).
So what does Spock look like? A scify version of an elf! Fey look a LOT like medieval art of devils. So what if the original devils - who were archangels - were actual archfey at first? Either LeShay, or perhaps Celadrin. The Seldarine/Vanir may have actually been a group of Archfey who achieved Celestial status - Immortals because they predated Death coming into the world - and some of them may have 'Fallen', and become the Devils.
Lucifer could easily have been a Celestial (Celadrin) Archfey in the beginning.
Whats really funny is that I tied the Drow - Dark ELVES - to demons a long time ago. I think Graz'zt was an Arch(dark)fey. I figured the 'zt' suffix is ancient Fey for 'clever betrayer' (hence its use in the name Drizzt as well). that would mean Fey are tied to devils, and Drow are tied to demons, and that all makes a lot of sense. Lolth was the 'Demon Queen of Spiders', after all. I also hypothesized that Graz'zt was Lolth's brother, which would make Pale Night her mother. I then took it a step further and said that Pale Night was the twin sister to Titania's mother Amara (an ancient Archfey from the east). The only real problem with that is that I wanted Lolth to be Gruumsh and Corellon's cousin, and now she's their aunt. I could make her Pale Night's granddaughter instead (so Graz'zt is her uncle), but that would leave me with finding her a mommy (I originally pegged the Queen of Air & Darkness as Lolth's mom, but now that we know thats Auril - someone she has NO interaction with - that would be really weird). If I wanted to keep the QoA&D as Lolth's mother, then I could just say that Titania and Auril were twins and daughters of Pale Night - the FIRST Fey.
Thus, maybe Pale Night was originally Pale Knight - a powerful Archfey/Archangel who fought for the side of good in the Godwar, then help Asmodeus build Hell, and later became corrupted and wound up leaving for the Abyss (or stayed, if the Abyss truly was the '1st Hel'). Her archfey children lived in Ladinion on the First World... that is, until the dwarves unearth the Black diamond, and then Auril was also corrupted, just like her mother (which now makes me wonder who the father was - The dark God? He wanted his family back?) Titania (now an archfey in her own right) then gives birth to boys - Cor Elion (Radiant Child) and Gru'Mass (Wild Spirit) - paternal twins with different fathers. while Gru'Mass was often chastised for his wild and rude nature (some say bestial), Cor Elion's only fault seemed to be in his pride.
Anyhow, just trying to finding connections between the elves/fey and fiends. They do seem to have a lot in common, especially the further back you go. Corellon as Lucifer/Asmodeus... that's a HELLUVA heresy!
@Wooly: The Godshards concept can tie into this as well - what if 'The Dark God' is so called because it just a general term for a group of gods - gods that have all gotten corrupted by the Godshards? So it is all different gods, like Tharizdun and Ghaunadar, and yet really all the same god (because they have all absorbed a piece of the original 'Uberbad'). The idea is to corrupt as many deities as possible, and then reunite the pieces and reform the original 'Big Bad'. Could it be 'Evil Itself'? The very personification of evil? (and once again, I am now thinking about the ending of Time Bandits). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jul 2015 16:48:06 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 10:35:47
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Well, Corellon could relate to Adam, instead of Satan/Asmodeus.
Tolkien's elves were meant to somewhat represent humans while in Eden, or (relatively) shortly after exile, and before the great deluge. Adam and Methuselah both lived for over 900 years.
Adam, in Kabbalistic writtings, was originaly "The Angel Made from Earth", and was hermaphroditic. God later split the original Adam, known as Adam Kadmon, into Eve and Adam. Or by removing his female reproductive organs, as creating Eve from them, as the word commonly tranlated as rib, can be also translated as "part" of Adam, that is capable of creating/carrying life. This can link to Corellon's own hermaphroditism. |
Edited by - Baltas on 18 Jul 2015 10:37:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 17:10:30
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First he created Lilith (Lolth?), and when that didn't work out, he created Eve. Some folks think that Cain was actually the son of Adam's first wife (which works well if you use some of the WoD lore on vampires).
And on an episode of The Naked Archaeologist, he said that Lilith was created from the tail bone, which is why Lilith was corrupted, and he implied that the tailbone had 'draconic' origins, so we are right back to serpents and devils.
I use the Underland from Beyond Countless Doorways - basically an 'Uber-Underdark' that connects to all underdarks and resides in the underbelly of the universe. If I connect that to the Chthulu mythos (which is where I get a lot of my Far realms Stuff) and then say that is where Shudde M'ell dwells, and from where he sends his 'children' forth; his followers are called Chthonians, BTW. Perhaps it is these creatures which bring the 'Pure Evil' into this universe from the other? They plant the Black Diamonds - bits of some ancient Elemental Evil that was destroyed in the Godwar (perhaps the only avatar Chthon was ever able to form outside of the Far Realms?) The stuff has a mind-warping effect which can slowly drive someone insane, which gets worse by proximity. There was one in the Crown of Horns, but maybe Laeral never actually touched the jewel itself (contact would have made the insanity irrevocable, methinks)? And thats why the devils became evil when they 'dug' hell out of the bowels of the universe - they came too close to where the godshards were buried!
I think I may need a nap after this... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jul 2015 17:12:37 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 18:58:45
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Actualy, some suggest that both Adam, and Lilith, were created originaly as completely and trully equall, both being hermaphrodities.
Lilith may therefore be the proteginior of Succubi, who are somewhat of "liquid"/elastic gender, especialy since 4E. Some say that even Samael and Lilith are the same being, Lilith being the female, succubus visage of this being, while Samael is the Male, Incubus visage. Especialy that depending on myths, both Samael and Lilith, are credited with seducing Eve, and both as being the potential true parent of Kain. Yes, acording to some sources, Lilith seduced Eve, mostly to further spite Adam. Kain might have been therefore the first Cambion.
As a further interesting bit, some thing that the (in)famous representation of Baphomet by Eliphas Levi, is inspired by Lilith, or may in reality even be her, with Levi being inspired by tales of Lilith's hermaphroditic nature.
[EDIT]
Also, Gilgamesh in myths, has two fathers, and one mother(such thing was thought as possible with diviinities). That's how he was 2/3 god, and 1/3 mortal. Gilgamesh's divine father is named as "Lilu". Fotgotten Realms seem to interpret this to be Enlil/Ellil, but the most common interpretation it that it's Lilu a masculine form of Lilith. But let's look at this diffrently. Maybe the female Archfiend, that was Iyachtu Xvim's mother, was Lilith? Maybe Bane/Gilgamesh planned from the start to be reborn as partialy a member of the (human? fey?) creator race, even if corrupted. |
Edited by - Baltas on 18 Jul 2015 19:32:53 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2015 : 21:07:47
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Hmmmm... genetically, the more diverse the bloodlines (DNA), the 'greater' the offspring. Could this be true of divinities as well? Could having bits of ALL the Creator races - the first 'mortals'* - actually be a way of enhancing one's power on a divine level? That goes back to my theory that deities are ALL ascended mortals, and it's their ties to their mortality - the 'species unimind' - that gives them the ability to create those co-dependent attachments? If you have ties to several species, thats a much greater pool to draw from.
Interesting Note: Earlier we were discussing a '5th element' in all of this, and I go with the medieval concept that the fifth element - 'life'- is actually a perfect blend of the other four. In the movie The Fifth Element, the 5th Element was actually Leeloo... Lilu?
*I say 'mortals', even though they were actually Immortals. It is the children born after Death came into the world that would have been mortal (although - like in The Bible - the further one goes back and gets closer to the original bloodline, the longer-lived these beings are). The Immortals (which also links to Mystara's ideas of divinity) are just the Creator Races, and we can even borrow from the Highlander series here - by absorbing the power of others you kill in fair combat, you increase your own power (and ascend?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2015 : 12:31:23
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Great idea with Mystara's immortals being the Creator Races, and the connection to Highlander.
And about Leeloo...Well, She could be seen as benevolent version/incarnation of Lilith. Especialy that it was stated that her DNA is identical to a humans, just much more complex. Her innocence, can be atributed to the fact Lilith never ate a fruit from Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. |
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 11:39:10
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Fascinating read and compliments to the authors.
One comment:
I noted that the occurence of hermaphroditic divine beings seem to have been more frequent the farther back in time one goes, and I'm wondering what this indicates.
Are we talking divine conflict a'la the real-world conflict between patriarchal and matriarchal religions (a'la Zeus vs Gaia), or if it simply denotes the physical makeup of the current batch of mortal species inhabiting the Realms (or maybe a mix of both).
Any thoughts?
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
Edited by - Misereor on 20 Jul 2015 11:39:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 12:13:58
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In the beginning, before the creation of the Creatori ('Creator Races'), there was no need for gender; nearly every being up until then could create life on their own, or with the help of other, asexual beings. We identify some Powers as being either 'male' (Ymir) or 'female' (Gaia), but the truth is, they all had no sex. They were just great big balls of energy who could take any physical form they wanted, as needed.
Not sure why 'the gods' would have decided to make the Creator Races with two sexes, but they must have had a reason. We could possibly borrow from Wheel of Time or some other setting with a good energy/bad energy juxtaposition and say they wanted to place the two halves of divine energy into two separate (but equal) halves of a species. In my proto-mythos, I have it where each Supernal (that tier of Powers just below THE Power) has an opposite - a 'partner' to compliment them. Except for Chronos - time stands apart from all others, and is capable of both the 'subtractive' and 'additive' sides of divinity in its inescapable march forward. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 13:11:31
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Interesting, but wasn't Chronos paired with Ananke - "inevitability"?
Although both Ananke and Chronos, could be seen as just parts/aspects of Aion/Aeon
- "Time Eternal"/"Time Indivisible"/"Eternity". |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 14:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Baltas
Interesting, but wasn't Chronos paired with Ananke - "inevitability"?
Although both Ananke and Chronos, could be seen as just parts/aspects of Aion/Aeon
- "Time Eternal"/"Time Indivisible"/"Eternity".
There are enough variations on creation myths, that you're both correct (just referencing slightly different sources, and interpretations). The way I look at it, is that the very concept of gender is way down the road in the cosmic structure of the universe, and in a cosmic sense is simply another dualistic structure that is adopted as an additional layer of specialization in some species. Which is why "gender" just ends up being a construct assigned by mortals to divinities as a way to comprehend their function relative to the mortal's culture.
I tend to see the "Aion - Chronos - Ananke" grouping, is that they are so early in the Cosmic structure that they may as well be concepts rather than entities... "Logic - Time - Necessity" respectively. And that the existence of any one of these concepts automatically means that the other two exist... Which is part of the reason that the Trinity concept remains constant throughout Western Mythology & Theology. It's probably part of why I wanted to use the "Angharradh Effect" I mentioned earlier, as a divine ritual that the Realms Deities can use to combine themselves into more powerful entities. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 16:45:00
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Interesting observation on Aion - Chronos - Ananke.
Although this also makes me wonder how Chronepsis/Null is connected to
Aion - Chronos - Ananke. Chronepsis/Null is also part of the Asgorath trinity(Tiamat - Bahamut - Chropsis/Null), which is itself similar to "Angharradh Effect", but reversed.
I myself though that Angharradh might be in part a resurrection of the ancient elven goddess Ordana, who is the the creator of elves on Blackmoor and Mystara, as both have very similar portfolios. And as was pointed out by Markustay, Blackmoor might take place on the original "First World".
In the Realms conversion of the Age of Worms, it's revealed that Jergal wants to merge Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul together, into a new version of himself, that would be an overgod. This also very similar to the "Angharradh Effect". I think that Bane might now hate Jergal the most, as Jergal wanted to use him as just a pawn in his plan, and absorb him. |
Edited by - Baltas on 21 Jul 2015 14:20:36 |
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Misereor
Learned Scribe
164 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2015 : 18:10:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure why 'the gods' would have decided to make the Creator Races with two sexes, but they must have had a reason.
Who says they did?
In a fantasy environment various invertebrates and aquatic species who are hermaphroditic could well have sentient descendants that shared this trait, while younger species have separate sexes. A God of such an elder species who switched to Human worshippers would probably change aspect over time. It may be an instance of the development of mortals shaping the Gods (with all the attendant strife that implies) rather than vice versa.
Anyway, it sounds like there may be some untold tales there, that may have been passed over rather lightly.
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What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2015 : 18:18:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Misereor
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure why 'the gods' would have decided to make the Creator Races with two sexes, but they must have had a reason.
Who says they did?
In a fantasy environment various invertebrates and aquatic species who are hermaphroditic could well have sentient descendants that shared this trait, while younger species have separate sexes. A God of such an elder species who switched to Human worshippers would probably change aspect over time. It may be an instance of the development of mortals shaping the Gods (with all the attendant strife that implies) rather than vice versa.
Anyway, it sounds like there may be some untold tales there, that may have been passed over rather lightly.
I tend to see this as part of the fundamental duality aspect of cosmic order, and ties right into Good vs. Evil, Law vs. Chaos, etc. A continually expanding series of dualistic structures/concepts is essentially a necessity to prevent the cosmic structure from collapsing on itself into a singularity. It is also a type of parallel dualistic structure that encourages cooperation and perpetuation of entities (a positive duality) rather than a purely oppositional duality that essentially cancels the other or causes a paradox (a negative duality)...
Age of Worms: This is a nice little nuance that I wasn't aware of until now, Baltas. Since it's not "canon" lore, I think it plays well for my game if I use that as a part of the justification for Kelemvor taking up an alliance with Bane... Jergal summons Bane to the Crystal Spire and brings back Bhaal and Myrkul with the intent of attempting to become the new Overgod (since he has Kelemvor to mind the City of Judgement). Bane resists the ritual just long enough for Kelemvor to react and interrupt the ritual... Kelemvor and Bane are then allies by necessity.
The Corellon/Araushnee Double-Switch: The mention of Graz'zt earlier, combined with the "Devil-Solomon" myth, made me think of another angle to the whole Drow Curse. What if it was a double fake out? Since we already have a parallel myth suggesting Asmodeus may have replaced Solomon(Corellon) for a time... Could Graz'zt have been the one that invaded Arvandor alongside Ghaunaduar, Gruumsh, and Malar, while masquerading as Araushnee? While Asmodeus is masquerading as Corellon? This opens up the possibility that it was actually Asmodeus that curses the Drow (and consigns Corellon's children to the Abyss). Therefore, Corellon and Araushnee are both either victims of a plot between Asmodeus & Graz'zt, or casualties in another battle between Asmodeus & Graz'zt in the neverending Blood War between the Devils & Demons. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2015 : 18:42:09
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Yeah, Bane and Kelemvor teaming up against Jergal has sense, as the Jergal used both of them. One could even write that Jergal purposely set Kelemvor's plans to not use the Wall of Faithless to fail, by giving suggestions to the then young Kelemvor, to what would anger the other gods, who then forced the young god of dead to use the Wall again.
About Graz'zt, it's interesting that near the end of 3.5e, it was suggested he's Asmodeus' son, and 4e had him originaly working for Asmodeus, before going rogue. And about Drow and Graz'zt, the Immortal patron of Shadow Elves from Mystara, Atzanteotl, is quite similar to Graz'zt, as noted by a few fans... |
Edited by - Baltas on 21 Jul 2015 18:45:58 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2015 : 03:13:01
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Alright, I'm going to circle back to the BANE-Gilgeam connection one more time before I start thinking about having Sseth & Shargaas replace Shar.
Wooly has brought up in other scrolls the fact that there is high likelihood that Xvim has been masquerading as Bane since 1372 DR, and even though I am a loyal Banite... He's probably right... The strongest evidence in my mind that Xvim is masquerading as Bane was the interaction between Szass Tam and Bane, where Szass Tam was basically more powerful than him... I can see him being able to do that to Xvim, not Bane.
So, if we presume that Gilgeam was essentially an Avatar of BANE, when ToT rolls around the incarnation of BANE is killed by Torm, and his Avatar Gilgeam is killed by Tiamat... Or was he?
If we draw another parallel between BANE and Gilgamesh, we will see that BANE never truly died, and his loyal son Xvim is acting as a divine shield for the true BANE.
The Hidden Tyrant: Gilgamesh eventually seeks out Utnapishtim, the babylonian equivalent of Noah, to find the secret to immortality. In an ironic twist Gilgamesh gives up on immortality, but Utnapishtim attains immortality among the gods after the flood... The interesting tidbit here is that Utnapishtim is noted as the ruler of Uruk's twin city, Shuruppak which means "The Healing Place"... The chosen servant of Gilgeam is brutal warrior named Shuruppak. Shuruppak always wears mask of a Red Skull, and wears concealing Black Cloak (Black and Red are BANE's true colors). He also wields a Greatsword (which is what BANE is carrying when he obtains godhood from Jergal). BANE's ascension to godhood is at an indefinite point in time, however Jergal tiring of his position could logically coincide with the Fall of Netheril, which would be after Gilgeam becomes God-King of Unther... Therefore, I am considering the idea that Shuruppak was actually BANE/Gilgeam, and the "Gilgeam" that was killed by Tiamat was just a proxy... And BANE has never truly been killed.
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:43:16 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2015 : 04:29:58
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Very interesting theory with Shuruppak being Bane, it indeed makes sense. The collors fit perfectly. I personaly thought Shuruppak might have been somehow connected to Bhaal, because of the skull motive, and being an assassin/executioner. But indeed, Bane might have just created a guise inspired by Bhaal.
[EDIT]
Also, to explain how and why Bane/Gilgaem got divinity from Jergal. The Untheri gods, were bound to avatars, and in a way, didn't have access to full powers of a divinity, Bane might have wanted to trow off this restriction. And it also seems that the other members of the Dark Tree, were also immortals, before ataining divinity. Myrkul was aparently a lich, and Bhaal was both a lich-assassin, and chosen of Jergal, acording to materials by George Krashos.
Bane also might have resignated out of most of his divine power(while staying divine rank 0), and placed it in an lesser avatar/aspect, that served as the king of Unther. That way, Bane could possibly get around the restrictions of god barrier created by the Imaskari. |
Edited by - Baltas on 24 Jul 2015 11:32:53 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2015 : 17:19:45
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And about Azathoth and Asgoroth/Asgorath/Io...As I wrote on the Monster Mythology thread, the name of Chaos from Dragonlance, was revealed as Ionthas...The author of this revelation, Matthew L. Martin, confimed this is a deliberate reference to Io.
Chaos is more than a bit similar to Azathoth/Chthon, if more "sentinent". |
Edited by - Baltas on 24 Jul 2015 17:21:23 |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2015 : 17:20:40
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After reading Krashos' material on Jergal, I'm closing the book on any other speculation about Jergal... He laid out some pretty definitive lore, and it let's me approach the Supreme Throne concepts without having to tie it to Jergal in any way.
Part of the reason that I've been looking so heavily at the Creator Races and the Lost Empires is because they're elements that none of my campaigns have integrated before, and the players in my 5e home campaign have set the ball rolling in that direction pretty definitively (and my PCs Adventuring Group is being sponsored by BANE & Kelemvor)... I'm sticking with the idea that real BANE escaped destruction by becoming Shuruppak, and permitting Xvim to masquerade as BANE, in case his enemies try and target him again, they'll just end up killing Xvim.
Now, on to other Lost Empire cross-over storylines...
The New Dark Order of the Elder Eye: Knowing that Ghaunadaur is part of the Elder Elemental Evil, causes me to think that on some level he is a force behind the power of Shar and Lolth... So, since both Shar and Lolth have failed in their recent gambits to control or manipulate the weave... Ghaunadaur thinks these two have had more than enough opportunities, and it's time for Shar and Lolth to take a break and reflect on their continual failures... Ghaunadaur might have looked to create an alliance with Jergal, but he couldn't keep his creations BANE & Kelemvor under his thumb... Therefore, it is time for the Elder Eye to create a New Dark Order, and there are plenty of gods eager prove that they can succeed where Shar and Lolth and Jergal have come up short.
Shargaas: I've been looking at Shargaas for a while, and I felt like he had a lot of potential. Then I realized that he's a good candidate for another tie-in to the Untheric/Orcish conflict. Most of the Untheric deities were killed by "Unnamed Orc Deities"... So, I've decided to name Shargaas as the deity responsible for killing all of those Untheric gods. Therefore, his true power is much greater than anyone is aware of, and justifies why he could limit Gruumsh to only calling on his support periodically. This also sets up a good conflict between Shargaas and BANE/Gilgeam/Shuruppak.
Sseth: I was happy to hear that Sseth is back in action. The awakening of Sseth coincides perfectly with my campaign, and it's focus on the Lost Empires. So, I am immediately hooking him up with Ghaunaduar and Shargaas, as the caretaker of the Shadow Weave while Shar is on vacation. I want to combine Set & Sseth into the same entity (still thinking about how to do it). This is so that Sseth/Set will see Bane as a parallel entity to Osiris (with the whole Green Resurrection thing)... and give Sseth/Set common cause to cooperate with Ghaunadaur and Shargaas.
Kiaransalee: The rise of Eiliastraeea and Vhaeraun, combined with Ghaunaduar sending Lolth on a forced vacation (and I just see Selvetarm as Lolth's pet) means that Kiaransalee jumps to the front of the line as basically the only Evil Drow Goddess left... And she's a perfect fit for Ghaunaduar's evil alliance.
...I'm still not sure what I'm going to do with Yurtrus...
...Any other ideas, or deities I should consider while I'm thinking about this New Dark Alliance of Ghaunaduar, Shargaas, Sseth, and Kiaransalee? |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 11 Aug 2015 14:45:52 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jul 2015 : 18:36:35
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Well, the reason why Ghaunadaur could be Bane's enemy, could tht the leader ofthe Anti-Seldarine, was not Gruumsh, or Lolth, but Ghaunadaur. It has sense, as the times of the Anti-Seldarine, should be before Ghaunadaur's weakening, so out the powers in the Anti-Seldarine, he should be the strongest.
Bane now commands the remains the majority of the remains of the orcish and goblinoid pantheons(and therefore goblinoids(including orcs)), so Ghaunadaur may see this as Bane stealing something, he wanted to regain. Shargaass and Yurtrus might come under Ghaunadaur's command, as they once were so allready, during the times of the Anti-Seldarine, and Yurtus may also be the remains of Moander, who was Ghaunadaur's ally.
Demogorgon might be a fine member of the New Dark Order of the Elder Eye. Acording to kopru legends one of Demogorgon's two mothers, was Shothotugg. One of Tharizdun's avatars, which may also be Ghaunadaur's avatar, is called Shothragot, pretty similary to Shothotugg. So Ghaunadaur may call it's "child", into serving it. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 20:14:00
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I'm hesitant to involve Demogorgon at this point, because he's involved in the "Out of the Abyss" Adventure series. I might change my mind after I get a chance to pick it up, and read through it, but for now Demogorgon is on hold.
Although, speaking of Demons... Xvim's mother has never really been named, beyond her being a Tanar'ri. So, I was considering identifying Malcanthet, Queen of the Succubi, as his mother... I was thinking that she might want to encourage Bane & Xvim to forge an alliance with Mephistopheles, since Mephistopheles is also interested in taking Asmodeus down... Malcanthet would obviously have an ulterior motive as well, perhaps she would be intent on becoming Mephistopheles consort. That way she could become the hidden hand behind all Fiends, with her consort Mephistopheles as King of Hell, and her son Demogorgon as King of the Abyss... If that brought an end to the Blood War, what would that mean for the rest of the Multi-verse?
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2015 : 20:58:37
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Well, Demogorgon isn't Malcanthet's son. Or did you mean Xvim?
Also, Demogorgon is a hermaphrodite, with one head being male, and other female, called Aameul and Hethradiah. And them being Malcanthet's child would be VERY strange, as Malcanthet and Demogorgon have at least one child together.
I doubt Mephistopheles would be ever able to dethrone Asmodeus, as Asmodeus is at least hinted to be one of the most powerfull beings in the Multiverse, especialy in the 1999 Guide to Hell, and the 3E Manual of Planes. Guide to Hell specificaly mentions he's Ahriman/Angra Mainyu, brother to Jazirian. Also what is interesting, Sseth/Merrshaulk is another of Asmodeus and Jazirian siblings.
Lilith is probably the closest to being the hidden hand behind all Fiends. Lilith, acording to some sources, was the same as the Hag Countess, Malagard, with Malagard being maybe Lilith's invasion on Neutral Evil teritory. Although the Hag Countess aspect, was ultimately killed by Glasya. Malcanthet could be another of Lilith's faces. Not to mention, an upgraded form of a succubus is called a lilitu...
Although I personaly think that Malcanthet, along with the other queens of succubi( Lynkhab,Shami-Amourae, and Xinivrae) are maybe Lilith's daughters... |
Edited by - Baltas on 25 Jul 2015 21:14:01 |
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The time has come to Rewrite the Tablets of Fate!
