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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 02 Dec 2017 :  22:45:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I knew I recalled something about Tortles. I understand a group of four of them have been learning Ninjitsu from a Goblin Rat that recently arrived from Kara-Tur.

quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

tortle soup
Tortle Soup with crumbled Giff Bacon is all the rage in the Shining South.

Funny thing. Ever since that 'Shou Town' came into being in Thindol, Tabaxi in the nearby jungles have been disappearing.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 02 Dec 2017 22:48:39
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2206 Posts

Posted - 03 Dec 2017 :  04:05:53  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
....2 whole posts for someone to catch on that.......

pizza on the house.... though you may have to go get your own.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2017 :  21:26:36  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So today I discovered Amarune island, quite by accident. I was looking for anther map by going through the FRIA directory (the ones that get 'pasted' onto the globe, which are the only ones that show any sort of terrain on the 'terra incognita' landmasses), and I found a map for 'Amarune'. Looking in the wiki, the only Amarune I could find in there was that nakey dancer from a Cormyr novel (I wonder if there is a connection?)

I have to assume its something from one of the Moonshae novels, because its just off the NE coast of Alaron. All those times I looked at the Moonshae maps in the FRIA and never noticed that tiny isle was in purple. Just goes to show, you never stop learning about The Realms.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2017 21:27:44
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2017 :  03:14:47  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Markus, if you're still searching for a not-Maztican D&D mesoamerican civilization, there are the villages of Jocotopec (sounds much like real life Jocotepec) and Itztlico in he adventure "Going Ape" in Dungeon 192. The adventure also depicts the now-ruined city of Cihuatlco.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 09 Dec 2017 03:16:30
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 09 Dec 2017 :  07:15:08  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll have to check that out - Thanks!

I got sidetracked yet again (story of my life), because I wanted to see how hard it would be to adapt the Xen'drik material to Katashaka (it wasn't hard at all), to create a landmass that 'exists in two worlds' (just a weird idea I had, which actually works well with the canon lore about Xendrik) In fact, it was so easy I added some extraneous material in as well (like my Punjabbi islands, which are getting RENAMED), and some... other stuff. In fact, it looks so good I may upload it to the DMsGuild rather than my DeviantART (not sure yet).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 09 Dec 2017 07:16:30
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  02:34:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Hey Markus, if you're still searching for a not-Maztican D&D mesoamerican civilization, there are the villages of Jocotopec (sounds much like real life Jocotepec) and Itztlico in he adventure "Going Ape" in Dungeon 192. The adventure also depicts the now-ruined city of Cihuatlco.
It was a really good fit - it helped me round-out the area. Thanks.

I have it where the ruins of Cihuatlco are also the ruins of Taruin (they merged during the Spellplague, after Taruin was destroyed). People of mostly Maztican decent will refer to it as Cihuatlco, and descendants of Samarach survivors may still refer to it as Taruin (I have both names on the map). Either way, there are ruins of other things (tombs, pyramids, villages, cities, etc) that belonged to neither culture - it wound-up getting 'blended' with similar cultures from several worlds. For example, the city of Chalco itself appeared - along with some people from wherever it came from, and that became the new capitol, right across the river from the ruins of Samartogh (and old name for Samargol- I am repurposing it). They've all (mostly) blended into a unified culture at this point (I am picturing the people looking a lot like Dominicans... the nation, not the Catholic Order LOL). The Mazticans just think 'Tefnut' is another name for Maztica (the goddess, not the region). And that last bit not only helps me shoe-horn the old Swamplight adventure in, but also allows me NOT to have to retype that sentence a lot ("the goddess, not the region") when I do write it all up.

That adventure uses some oddball monsters from old editions (it was 2e, but even so). I had to look a couple up (Algoids and Darters), but its all good. There are a total of seven Rakshasa from what I can tell, but I think two might be part of the later group of three, so I'm not sure. At first I thought that was a bit OP for a party of lev. 7's (and probably was when that adventure came out), but it seems about right with 5e's depowered Raksasha, so I'm going to leave it. Its interesting using stuff people aren't used to seeing all the time, and the lizardmen aren't even (really) the bad guys this time out.

I'd probably post a WIP, but GIMP just crashed (I did something VERY stupid), and since I hadn't saved in a very long time (I actually am not sure if I EVER saved today on that map), I am NOT in the mood to open GIMP back up and see how much I lost this time.

On the other hand, I have at least three things all simultaneously nearing completion...

Time to start twelve more maps.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2017 04:04:30
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31142 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  03:09:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Time to start twelve more maps.



Only 12? Taking it easy for the holidays?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  04:10:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, lol.

I actually did start a new map, and its progressed further and faster than the the last one I shouldn't have started, so thats why there are three now very close to completion. I can definitely see two of them being done before the Holidays - the 5e one, that just needs the labels, and the new Katashaka one, mostly because its didn't really require much research (on the FR end, there wasn't any). That one is very pretty, and even shows a nice piece of Maztica, as well as Tabaxiland (the very large island), Nimbral, and even the edge of Chult (so its a great sea-voyage adventure map), and there's no other like it.

The one that crashed at the end of the day was the Abeir-in-the-Chultan-peninsula map, which I was using those Aztec-like locations for (for Samarach). Ah, well. That one is going to require some explaining, so thats why I don't see it being ready. Maybe in January. I think I'd prefer to finish the Nentir Vale conversion before New years - that would be nice.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2017 18:21:36
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Matrix Sorcica
Learned Scribe

Denmark
77 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  12:57:05  Show Profile Send Matrix Sorcica a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think I'd prefer to finish the Nentir Vale conversion before New years - that would be nice.


Very
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  16:44:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
LOL - I still have people waiting for new stuff about my Misbegotten Realms, even though I've said I WON't ever be getting back to that.

Turns out I didn't lose as much as I feared - I must have saved just a short time before GIMP crashed, and only lost some coast-outlining. The conversion stuff was still there - I must have trained myself (or GIMP did) to automatically save every once in awhile, because I really don't remember saving at that point (and there is no 'auto-save'). In fact, before I went to bed, I redid the little I lost and got a boatload more done.

Too bad that's all on a map I DON'T plan on releasing this month.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7054 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  16:54:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Yaeh, lol.

I actually did start a new map, and its progressed further and faster than the the last one I shouldn't have started, so thats why there are three now very close to completion. I can definitely see two of them being done before the Holidays - the 5e one, that just needs the labels, and the new Katashaka one, mostly because its didn't really require much research (on the FR end, there wasn't any). That one is very pretty, and even shows a nice piece of Maztica, as well as Tabaxiland (the very large island), Nimbral, and even the edge of Chult (so its a great sea-voyage adventure map), and there's no other like it.

The one that crashed at the end of the day was the Abeir-in-the-Chultan-peninsula map, which I was using those Aztec-like locations for (for Samarach). Ah, well. That one is going to require some explaining, so thats why I don't see it being ready. Maybe in January. I think I'd prefer to finish the Nentir Vale conversion before New years - that would be nice.



Just wondering... why are you picturing Samarach so much like an Aztec location? Its mentioned as basically a place where Leira's worship has taken hold. Their country is surrounded by illusions meant to keep serpent folk out. They are a vassal state of Nimbral who really took to Leira (whereas Nimbral started to turn away from Leira somewhat according to Ed's articles). The main city Samargol (which houses almost 25% of the population), is known as the city of veils because nearly everyone wears masks or veils. They favor illusions and their greatest mage is known as the High Phantasmage.

Note, I'm not averse to changing the area. Honestly, what I'd been planning for Samarach was to have Samargol and many of the small villages along the river Samar transfer over to Abeir all the way to Taruin.... and then a line from Taruin down to Rassatan, making like a triangle of Samarach that disappeared. I state this because looking at the 4e map, the inlet near Samargol is much wider, but not as deep, and the mountains to the east of Rassatan are gone. the remaining population on Toril would then probably be maybe half. I was then going to have the people who transferred have to flee the area via portals when they transfer to Abeir. Then basically make the area someplace that DM's can fill in with their own nasty-bads (some coming over from Abeir having conquered the area and taken it from Torilians, and some possibly moving into the areas that didn't transfer while the Torilians were gone). So, essentially, this could become a monster dominated rather than human dominated area.

On that idea, I do note that in 3e, the snout of omgar held a large number of yurians (who look like crabmen). The jungles of chult mentioned the "Aldani", or lobsterfolk, which look slightly different (they have the lobster tail). In the new Tomb of Annihilation adventure, they mention that many of the aldani have disappeared from Chult's waterways. Then the Snout of Omgar has grown up with a new tortle population. So perhaps turning Samarach into an area filled with amphibious threats (batrachi?)? Having Umberlee and Blibdoolpoolp in the area.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  18:45:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
From what ZeromaruX told me (in a thread somewhere around here... maybe even this one), Samarach got WIPED CLEAN in the Spellplague. This is 5e Samarach, now with electrolytes. Its what fans need.

Basically, I am taking an entry from the GHotR that never went anywhere - that Amn brought-over large numbers of Mazticans just before the Spellplague hit (and I have to assume here that that was only put in there as a way of saving some Mazticans for future use, which is precisely what I am doing) - and using it for what I think they created the entry for. We have a displaced culture (who's continent is GONE in 4e), and then we have Amn undergoing both a civil war of sorts (parts of the east were breaking away), and also a MAJOR conflict with an invading army of monsters (that stole about a 1/3 of the kingdom). That gives us a situation in which Amn now has a large population of hostile foreigners WITHIN its settlements (possibly even all in the capitol), while needing its army for at least two other important conflicts. As the number of soldiers greatly decreased within the cities, fear of what the 'savages' might do probably became a priority. The one thing that Amn didn't need (for its wars) was its extensive navy. so it seemed prudent to perhaps 'ship them off elsewhere'... at least for now (circa 1370-ish).

Then the Spellplague hits. now, not only is Amn having majorintenral troubles (including that monster army that doesn't plan to go anywhere, and in fact has since allied with them against the NEW invading tlincalis... FROM MAZTICA!), but the whole world has gone to 'hell in a handbag'. To top it all off, the plan to return the natives is no longer feasible, because maztica is simply GONE. But news arrive that the nation of Samarach down in Chult "is no more". Up until this point, this is ALL CANON.

This is where it becomes hombrew: Hitting upon a desperate idea, they tell the natives that they plan to take them home (they've probably been saying this for some time, to placate them and keep from having yet another rebellion on their hands). So they load up all the ships they can and sail to Chult. The Mazticans have no knowledge of the world, or sailing, and so would not realize they weren't heading the right way. Coming upon the ruins of Samartogh (Samargol) when they land, the Amnians explain the Maztica was hit pretty hard by the Spellplague (THAT the natives would have been aware of), and they would have to work together and travel inland and try to find other 'survivors'. Maztica is big - bigger than Chult, and it would have been simple to convince the Mazticans this was some 'unknown coast' they landed on in their homeland.

So the Amnians sail off back home, and the Mazticans begin to explore their new surroundings. They DO find survivors, but these are Samarchi survivors that managed to get up into the mountains when the tidal waves washed into Samarach. The soon find this is NOT their homeland and they've been tricked, but since they are now free again, they chose to work wth the locals and rebild the country the best they can. over the next few years sevral more 'Cerulean waves' wash across the landscape, bringinging other oddities with it, including other peoples and even one city - Chala (this is from the Swamplight adventure), which appears right across the river from the ruins many have settled in. This culture is very similar to the Mazticans own, and soon the three groups become one (over the course of a century).

This is how I get my Aztec-like culture much closer to The Realms (actually IN the Realms), without breaking any canon, and I get to fill Samarach back-in after WotC emptied it out (there are no settlements there aon Mike Schley's maps).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  18:45:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But that's not the best part... To be continued...

I've managed to add ALL of returned Abeir along the 'Chultan Arm', in such a way it all makes sens (and doesn't overwrite anything else). Its a very good fit.

But now, in my inanity, I've stumbled upon some other 'kewl stuff' I want to add. You see, I was referencing my own old Chult map, and I noticed Kuluth-Mar. I recall I added that from a Dungeon magazine adventure path - Eric Boyd had done the official FR conversions for it. So I went through the two APs I recalled - Shackled City and Savage Tide, saw that they were linked (not really, but they are 'near each other' - a local from one is mentioned on the map of the other), and I found a super-ideal place to put them (also NOT interfering with any FR canon or locales, or even terrain for that matter!)

But as I went through them, I STILL could not find Kuluth-Mar... so I googled it. Turns out there was 3rd AP I forgot about - The Age of Worms. And not only is THAT in there, there is quite a bit of lore about the 'before time' (what we call the Dawn War now) concerning Kyuss, and his involvement with the spellweavers, and also... Jergal! (Jergal was added by Eric Boyd in his conversions, which makes me think this is where he first started toying with the idea of tying Jergal to the Spellweavers). Its like finding missing pieces of lore we've been needing!

So now I have ALL THREE APs placed in Chult. The funny thing is, because of the weirdness regarding the split between Paizo and WotC, neither of those companies can really use that stuff anymore (other than pieces of it that were already 'generic' D&D), which means it all been orphaned. They can't... but I can. Its just 'fanfic' when I do it (or 'fanart' when its on a map). Thus, I can release my 'fan work' map of my DeviantART page, which will include ALL of my changes/conversions (and all the stuff from Mike Schley's map), and then if I move forward and decide to do something with it on the DMs guild (with just the returned Abeir stuff), I can simply omit the stuff from the three Paizo APs. So long as neither company even acknowledges what I am doing, it will work out for everyone - it couldn't hurt to add 'more to do' in Chult with WotC's current Tomb of Annihilation set there, and it generates interest in BOTH company's products (a little cross-merchandising never hurts in retail).

EDIT:
One caveat, which will seem weird to some folks here - I am going to go a different route than Eric Boyd (or Keith Baker for Eberron). Instead of substituting known FR cities for the ones in the AP, I am going to use the AP cities themselves - I feel its just better that way, and there is nothing wrong with having MORE. 'The Free City' becomes Suldophor rather than Waterdeep, and that gives DMs the choice of using an existing Greyhawk map (and rotating it 180°), or just using the map of Suldaphor (preferred). I know that sounds like I am NOT doing what I just said I was, but Suldophor has no lore wrapped around it, whilst Waterdeep has TONS, and several whole sourcebooks dedicated to it. Suldophor may as well be non-canon, its such a non-entity. Very little takes place there in the AP, so its fine. And the town of Diamond Lake winds up near the mountains to the west (rather than east, as it is in the AP). I feel this is a big improvement over using Daggerford, because in order to get Daggerford to work, Eric had to make some changes to the place, and kill-off the ruling family. I'd rather let them live and just create a new settlement.

This also places everything much closer together - Suldophor is at the mouth of the Lake of Steam, so its perfect, and just north of where the other two APs (and the rest of its AP) are located. The Isle of Dread simply becomes one of the many large islands in that chain that extends westward from zakhara (which I believe is where it was placed in the official conversion). In fact, I might go so far as to say that the island is actually located in the Feywild, and that's why it appears in so many settings.

We also have whatever Ed is working on in Ormpur, which is also on the map. It turns the region into a VERY interesting campaign area.


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2017 19:37:58
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
550 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  19:17:14  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Samarach is definitely one of those places with a legit excuse to avoid the worst of the spellplague and sinking of much of the Chultan peninsula. SCAG say, "Eastward along the Chultan peninsula lie the remains of Thindol and Samarach. Despite the apparent fall of both civilizations, Thindol remains infested with yuan-ti, while the illusions cloaking Samarach's mountain passes conceal the activities in that nation." Given that, I'd say more reason than not to suggest that Sammarach hid itself like Nimbral did during the Spellplague.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  19:27:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Why save something that was never a thing in the first place?

I'm looking at this as an opportunity to put something interesting THERE... that you don't have to cross an ocean to get to.

EDIT:
And now all this discussion made me fiddle with The Isle of Dread, and it fits just fine just south of Thindol (if its in the Feywild, that means its not 'always there' - it comes and goes, which works out great).

And BTW, all mas I use in conversions are sized perfectly, so the original maps accompanying any APs will still work. Except in the case of the returned Abeir stuff, but thats not AP-bound, and it didn't need to be precisely sized, since its more of an 'amalgamation' then a conversion (the Spellplague comes in handy for that sort of 'geographic hybridization').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 10 Dec 2017 20:10:31
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Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1061 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  21:35:02  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I think I'd prefer to finish the Nentir Vale conversion before New years - that would be nice.



If you need help with this, just ask.

As for Samarach, yes... there is nothing of interest there, neither in 4e, nor in 5e. According to the FRCG, most of the place was drowned (so, while some survived with their illusions, the majority died—and the place has been recovering for a century). The place is not even mentioned in ToA.

So, a culture of mixed Mazticans, Samarachians (?), and even stranded Abeirans can greatly enhance an area that has been left abandoned by WotC.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...

Edited by - Zeromaru X on 10 Dec 2017 21:37:36
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7054 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  21:50:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

From what ZeromaruX told me (in a thread somewhere around here... maybe even this one), Samarach got WIPED CLEAN in the Spellplague. This is 5e Samarach, now with electrolytes. Its what fans need.

Basically, I am taking an entry from the GHotR that never went anywhere - that Amn brought-over large numbers of Mazticans just before the Spellplague hit (and I have to assume here that that was only put in there as a way of saving some Mazticans for future use, which is precisely what I am doing) - and using it for what I think they created the entry for. We have a displaced culture (who's continent is GONE in 4e), and then we have Amn undergoing both a civil war of sorts (parts of the east were breaking away), and also a MAJOR conflict with an invading army of monsters (that stole about a 1/3 of the kingdom). That gives us a situation in which Amn now has a large population of hostile foreigners WITHIN its settlements (possibly even all in the capitol), while needing its army for at least two other important conflicts. As the number of soldiers greatly decreased within the cities, fear of what the 'savages' might do probably became a priority. The one thing that Amn didn't need (for its wars) was its extensive navy. so it seemed prudent to perhaps 'ship them off elsewhere'... at least for now (circa 1370-ish).

Then the Spellplague hits. now, not only is Amn having majorintenral troubles (including that monster army that doesn't plan to go anywhere, and in fact has since allied with them against the NEW invading tlincalis... FROM MAZTICA!), but the whole world has gone to 'hell in a handbag'. To top it all off, the plan to return the natives is no longer feasible, because maztica is simply GONE. But news arrive that the nation of Samarach down in Chult "is no more". Up until this point, this is ALL CANON.

This is where it becomes hombrew: Hitting upon a desperate idea, they tell the natives that they plan to take them home (they've probably been saying this for some time, to placate them and keep from having yet another rebellion on their hands). So they load up all the ships they can and sail to Chult. The Mazticans have no knowledge of the world, or sailing, and so would not realize they weren't heading the right way. Coming upon the ruins of Samartogh (Samargol) when they land, the Amnians explain the Maztica was hit pretty hard by the Spellplague (THAT the natives would have been aware of), and they would have to work together and travel inland and try to find other 'survivors'. Maztica is big - bigger than Chult, and it would have been simple to convince the Mazticans this was some 'unknown coast' they landed on in their homeland.

So the Amnians sail off back home, and the Mazticans begin to explore their new surroundings. They DO find survivors, but these are Samarchi survivors that managed to get up into the mountains when the tidal waves washed into Samarach. The soon find this is NOT their homeland and they've been tricked, but since they are now free again, they chose to work wth the locals and rebild the country the best they can. over the next few years sevral more 'Cerulean waves' wash across the landscape, bringinging other oddities with it, including other peoples and even one city - Chala (this is from the Swamplight adventure), which appears right across the river from the ruins many have settled in. This culture is very similar to the Mazticans own, and soon the three groups become one (over the course of a century).

This is how I get my Aztec-like culture much closer to The Realms (actually IN the Realms), without breaking any canon, and I get to fill Samarach back-in after WotC emptied it out (there are no settlements there aon Mike Schley's maps).



Gotcha... I remember the part where you were wanting to transfer Maztican natives now. So, you're thinking that over the last century they build up a society. I remember you also saying you also wanted to involve them with Sethir.

How about some add ons to that just a little bit. There's a former Thindolese city state named Narubel just north of Samarach. Its in the control of yuan-ti purebloods of the Sauringar tribe, who themselves are allied with spirit nagas of the Chultengar. During the 3e era this was a centerpoint for piracy. So, the Amnians decide to SELL the Mazticans to the pirates as slaves.

Something happens... the Mazticans get free... they flee south and discover Narubel Pass which goes into the Samarlogh (a jungle on the Northwestern wall of Samarach). Within this jungle, they discover "abandoned strongholds of the Sauringar yuan-ti tribe" (quote directly from Serpent kingdoms), and maybe they decide to live in these abandoned cities. Much easier to believe they rejuvenate lost cities versus build new. Maybe the Harim of the Jahi convince them that they must sacrifice the people of Taruin....

I could like this concept and still work it with what I want to do (i.e. having portions of southern Samarach transfer to Abeir and now be back). In fact, if I compare the 3e map of the region from serpent kingdoms to the 4e map and then to the Tomb of Annihilation map, it appears that there are distinct difference in the mountains. It looks like during 4e, the southwestern portion of the Sanrach mountains was gone. However, now its back, and with some more mountains trailing to the northeast off them. Similarly, the mountain range near Rassatan was gone during 4e, but now its back. Instead of picturing a triangle of Samarach leaving and coming back... I could instead picture a line through the southern tips of both sides of the Sanrach mountain range that also bisected Samargol, capturing both Rassantan and Samargol.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 10 Dec 2017 21:54:26
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 10 Dec 2017 :  23:21:22  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, like I said, I did manage to keep a sizable number of Samarchi survivors around - perhaps around the same number as the new Mazticans. So lets say there were 100 ships involved, and according to wikipedia, slave ships could transport 250-600 slaves at a time. I'm going to lean toward the lower end, since I can't picture this many slaves (who probably have figured out they far outnumber their guards) willing to be crammed like cattle, and say around 250 per ship, giving us 25K per trip. The first batch - probably the most dangerous (youthful men in good physical condition) get moved first, and everything goes off without a hitch. Second (and last) trip they go to move the rest, but the captains hit upon an idea; what if they went somewhere else and just sold them? No one would know. Not with all the confusion going on in Amn and the rest of the world. And even if someone were to eventually find out, so what? It will be too late to do anything about it. So the second wave of ships makes the shorter journey to Narubel, and sells them all. Narubel, by the way, is just east of where I placed Sasserine (Savage Tide) and The Shackled City (Cauldron) - Sasserine is in the large bay just west of there (on Mike Schley's ToA maps), so this all fits nicely.

Then, as you say, there were just too many at once (which is precisely what Amn was worried about). Once they realized they weren't being released back into Maztica, they revolted. Now, not sure how to spin the two groups connecting, other than 'coincidentally' running into each other. Perhaps some of the ship captains did not go along with the rest, and under the cover of darkness separated and went to Samarach, where they told the others what happened to their countrymen. Thus, maybe a group of Mazticans drove north (through the pass), while the rebellions were going on, and arrived 'in the nick of time'. That way, it isn't as contrived, and it makes it so that not all Amnites are total douchbags (which is how it should be - loyalties or no, there WERE ship captains RW who were sickened by what was going on).

So that would make for a total of 50K Mazticans (a tiny number compared to RW slave trade, which was in the millions), probably an equal number of surviving Samarchi, and maybe about 10K that arrived in Chala. Aside from Chala, there were other villages that just appeared (and there were some bad language differences at first.. and there still might be), and also a bunch of ruins, which no-one seems to know where those came from (possibly Abeir, but could have been from anywhere). My concept for Chala is starting to expand, and I may interweave it with my ideas I had way back about Maztica (having originally come from Abeir, and then having gotten 'displaced' in the distant past). Thus, if the Mazticans had some sort of large empire that got destroyed when a piece of it was shunted into The Realms (or perhaps got split up when Ao Sundered the world - that might work better), the ones that remained may have settled in the Abeir version of Chult, being that no Tabaxi were brought there (so Abeir-Chult would have been a similar jungle region without humans). That would explain the similar cultures and works better for people who don't want too many worlds involved in this (but then we still have the problem of the Tefnut statue... unless we say Tefnut was a primordial {which actually makes some sense} and she was on Abeir, and thats why she wasn't allowed to have an aspect come to Toril). Especially if we say Geb is really Grumbar/Grome (a humanish aspect), thus the proto-Egyptian (Pharonic) pantheon would have those 'more ancient Gods' really be primordials (although chronologically Geb and Nut would make more sense as estelar, so maybe Geb is just an 'earth God' like he's supposed to be).

The one problem I am having with this is as I do the research, I learned Suldolphor (which was one of the largest cities in the world) was destroyed by the second skyfire wars. Perhaps I can just respin that to say it was 'mostly destroyed', and after Calim and Memnon were banished it was somewhat rebuilt (thus allowing for the use of other maps for the city). On the other hand, the nearby city of Almraiven was the only Calishite city left untouched by the wars, and that was my first choice, when I decided to do all this. It might make more sense to switch back to it, all things considered. You know what - I'm locking that in. The two reasons I chose Suldolphor over that are no longer even valid.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 11 Dec 2017 04:24:45
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Matrix Sorcica
Learned Scribe

Denmark
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Posted - 12 Dec 2017 :  10:19:21  Show Profile Send Matrix Sorcica a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

LOL - I still have people waiting for new stuff about my Misbegotten Realms, even though I've said I WON't ever be getting back to that.

Turns out I didn't lose as much as I feared - I must have saved just a short time before GIMP crashed, and only lost some coast-outlining. The conversion stuff was still there - I must have trained myself (or GIMP did) to automatically save every once in awhile, because I really don't remember saving at that point (and there is no 'auto-save'). In fact, before I went to bed, I redid the little I lost and got a boatload more done.

Too bad that's all on a map I DON'T plan on releasing this month.


This is amazing news. I asked you in a PM a long time ago about your latest version of the Misbegotten Realms. You were a few days from posting something when you soured on map making. So first of all very happy that you've taken up mapping again and so much looking forward to your Misbegotten Realms rerelease. :)

Good times.

(wouldn't mind some eraly acces

Edited by - Matrix Sorcica on 12 Dec 2017 10:21:47
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7054 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2017 :  15:02:54  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, like I said, I did manage to keep a sizable number of Samarchi survivors around - perhaps around the same number as the new Mazticans. So lets say there were 100 ships involved, and according to wikipedia, slave ships could transport 250-600 slaves at a time. I'm going to lean toward the lower end, since I can't picture this many slaves (who probably have figured out they far outnumber their guards) willing to be crammed like cattle, and say around 250 per ship, giving us 25K per trip. The first batch - probably the most dangerous (youthful men in good physical condition) get moved first, and everything goes off without a hitch. Second (and last) trip they go to move the rest, but the captains hit upon an idea; what if they went somewhere else and just sold them? No one would know. Not with all the confusion going on in Amn and the rest of the world. And even if someone were to eventually find out, so what? It will be too late to do anything about it. So the second wave of ships makes the shorter journey to Narubel, and sells them all. Narubel, by the way, is just east of where I placed Sasserine (Savage Tide) and The Shackled City (Cauldron) - Sasserine is in the large bay just west of there (on Mike Schley's ToA maps), so this all fits nicely.

Then, as you say, there were just too many at once (which is precisely what Amn was worried about). Once they realized they weren't being released back into Maztica, they revolted. Now, not sure how to spin the two groups connecting, other than 'coincidentally' running into each other. Perhaps some of the ship captains did not go along with the rest, and under the cover of darkness separated and went to Samarach, where they told the others what happened to their countrymen. Thus, maybe a group of Mazticans drove north (through the pass), while the rebellions were going on, and arrived 'in the nick of time'. That way, it isn't as contrived, and it makes it so that not all Amnites are total douchbags (which is how it should be - loyalties or no, there WERE ship captains RW who were sickened by what was going on).

So that would make for a total of 50K Mazticans (a tiny number compared to RW slave trade, which was in the millions), probably an equal number of surviving Samarchi, and maybe about 10K that arrived in Chala. Aside from Chala, there were other villages that just appeared (and there were some bad language differences at first.. and there still might be), and also a bunch of ruins, which no-one seems to know where those came from (possibly Abeir, but could have been from anywhere). My concept for Chala is starting to expand, and I may interweave it with my ideas I had way back about Maztica (having originally come from Abeir, and then having gotten 'displaced' in the distant past). Thus, if the Mazticans had some sort of large empire that got destroyed when a piece of it was shunted into The Realms (or perhaps got split up when Ao Sundered the world - that might work better), the ones that remained may have settled in the Abeir version of Chult, being that no Tabaxi were brought there (so Abeir-Chult would have been a similar jungle region without humans). That would explain the similar cultures and works better for people who don't want too many worlds involved in this (but then we still have the problem of the Tefnut statue... unless we say Tefnut was a primordial {which actually makes some sense} and she was on Abeir, and thats why she wasn't allowed to have an aspect come to Toril). Especially if we say Geb is really Grumbar/Grome (a humanish aspect), thus the proto-Egyptian (Pharonic) pantheon would have those 'more ancient Gods' really be primordials (although chronologically Geb and Nut would make more sense as estelar, so maybe Geb is just an 'earth God' like he's supposed to be).

The one problem I am having with this is as I do the research, I learned Suldolphor (which was one of the largest cities in the world) was destroyed by the second skyfire wars. Perhaps I can just respin that to say it was 'mostly destroyed', and after Calim and Memnon were banished it was somewhat rebuilt (thus allowing for the use of other maps for the city). On the other hand, the nearby city of Almraiven was the only Calishite city left untouched by the wars, and that was my first choice, when I decided to do all this. It might make more sense to switch back to it, all things considered. You know what - I'm locking that in. The two reasons I chose Suldolphor over that are no longer even valid.



One thing I'd personally push... and it will sound a little racist... but Samarach is divided into multiple races just like Thindol is. The country is about 80% Tashalan, 19% Chultan, 1% Nimbrese/Halruaan. I'd say that the Tashalar inhabit the "rich" territories along the river and the Chultans inhabit the poorer lands and are struggling and are still somewhat tribal. Kind of the same thing happened in Thindol (but it was roughly 48% Chultan/39% Tashalan), but Thindol is also more of a backwater region.

Along those lines, as I've mentioned, I'm doing the transfer thing, and in doing that I'd leave pretty much just Chultans behind and mainly Tashalans that transfer. Similar with the areas of Thindol that transfer and the areas of Tashalar that transfer (since Tashalar is mostly Tashalan with some Calishite anyway). For what I'm doing, this would mean that when all these areas evacuate (they will all have Thayan enclaves and they decide together that they are all in dangerous situations and help their cities flee to Balduran Bay in Anchorome), that Balduran Bay will have a large influx of Tashalan blooded people. Two of these will be the Farseer of Tashluta (a very powerful mage-priest of Savras of level 28), and the other will actually be Nimbrese/Halruaan (the High Phantasmage Meleghost Zoaster of Samargol a level 25 wizard), and I plan on having Balduran Bay be one of my tharchs where the idea of Mulan supremacy is in question. In fact, during the "evacuation", the red wizards (racist bastards that they are) may push Chultans to the back of the line in favor of Nimbrese and Tashalans in Samargol. Thus, if I assume I rescue 100k people from Samargol and nearby surrounding areas, it might be 94K Tashalan and 6K Nimbrese and maybe 1k Mulan (the Mulan from the trade enclave). Similarly, if I have Tashluta evacutate, it might be about

Hmmm, and I just discovered something useful for me in the Tashalar. Near Tashluta, at the end of the Hazur Mountains, there's fabled to be the "Crypt of Anthilar" who was a lich trapped in a "lich coffin" in the trollmoors in a dragon's hoard. However, its "rumored" that he manifests as a ghost to protect his lair (weaveghost?). In his lair is the spellskins of Mhairshaulk .... transcribing that with the "golden skins of the world serpent" and then into the modern terminology of "Nether Scrolls". So, IF this area of the Hazur mountains transfers to Abeir.... Anthilar can't protect them anymore. This looks like a tool I can use somehow. From the 4e map, it does look like Tashluta is gone... and the northeastern most portion of the Hazur mountains are still there, but that doesn't necessarily mean ALL of those mountains, since it also appears we lost the whole southwestern section of them too.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 12 Dec 2017 :  20:41:43  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I suppose I could say it was all the Tashalar that died, being they would have been the ones in the larger settlements (mostly along the coast). Maybe only half the Chultan-blood Samarchi died, because they lived in remote, inland locations (like a lot in the mountains).

Visually, I am picturing the Tashalar along the lines of Berbers (North Africans), while the Chultans would have that 'classic' Africanesque look about them (walking on eggs here once again). The Tashtans (including Thindol, which also took a bit of hit, but only lost territory, not really pop. or culture) are of Turami descent, whereas the Chultans are from katashaka (or Tabaxiland... I need to finish that new map... but I foolishly started yet another). {sigh}

Having a large group (that are canonical) of Mazticans move into Samarach was just my way of sprucing the place up, after the hit it took in the Spellplague. Also, it was NEVER intersting before - it was just 'Eastern Thindol' (which is really bad, considering Thindol was also pretty uninteresting). Since Thindol is reachable fairly easily (compared to maztica), i just thought it was a nice way to get some of that flavor nearby. There is/was a Yuan-ti controlled portal from the north to Thindol in the VG, and there are probably more (I beleive that may have even been alluded to in Serpent Kingdoms - the Yuan-ti and other scalyfolk have access to ancient Sarrukh Gates).

Of course, we could put portals in Maztica (and Katashaka, AND Anchoromé) if we wanted to as well, but then would beg the question, why has maztica only been recently discovered? Why hasn't anyone (from Faerûn) interacted with any of those places before now?

Unless... we say that Ao's 'great reset' somehow reactivated an ancient Creatori portal network (The Road of Starlight and Shadows), and portal-travel has now become easier and more popular in FR (if I were running an FR game right now, I'd go with that). Heck, even before the Spellplague hit, guys like Volo (and I am sure plenty of others) were using portals to fast-travel all over the place. I believe Ed's groups did so... that would mean I wouldn't need to move the Maztican (Aztec) flavor 'closer to home'. Of course, I did it more to get some new (ancient) ruins in the place, so that part still works. If you don't want Mazticans there, you can just go with the 'strange locales' appearing, and the survivors building off of that.

Come to think of it, both cultures would have originally come 'from across the sea', so maybe they have some sort of ancient myths about each other? That could be fun too. Now I REALLY need to finish that map.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 12 Dec 2017 :  20:46:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matrix Sorcica

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

LOL - I still have people waiting for new stuff about my Misbegotten Realms, even though I've said I WON't ever be getting back to that.

Turns out I didn't lose as much as I feared - I must have saved just a short time before GIMP crashed, and only lost some coast-outlining. The conversion stuff was still there - I must have trained myself (or GIMP did) to automatically save every once in awhile, because I really don't remember saving at that point (and there is no 'auto-save'). In fact, before I went to bed, I redid the little I lost and got a boatload more done.

Too bad that's all on a map I DON'T plan on releasing this month.


This is amazing news. I asked you in a PM a long time ago about your latest version of the Misbegotten Realms. You were a few days from posting something when you soured on map making. So first of all very happy that you've taken up mapping again and so much looking forward to your Misbegotten Realms rerelease. :)

Good times.

(wouldn't mind some eraly acces

Oops... you may have taken that the wrong way. The first sentence applies here. Sorry.
The maps that got saved (that I was referring to) was the Chult map I've been tinkering with.

I am currently too busy 'saving the Realms' (LOL) to go back to the amalgam maps... not for a VERY long while. However, my Abeir-in-Chult project has born 'Pazio fruit', in a manner of speaking - I've managed to incorporate the three (pre-parting of the ways) AP's from Dungeon/Dragon magazines.

In fact, it even spawned a city map, dammit... I hate doing city maps.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 12 Dec 2017 20:48:33
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7054 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2017 :  02:01:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Well, I suppose I could say it was all the Tashalar that died, being they would have been the ones in the larger settlements (mostly along the coast). Maybe only half the Chultan-blood Samarchi died, because they lived in remote, inland locations (like a lot in the mountains).

Visually, I am picturing the Tashalar along the lines of Berbers (North Africans), while the Chultans would have that 'classic' Africanesque look about them (walking on eggs here once again). The Tashtans (including Thindol, which also took a bit of hit, but only lost territory, not really pop. or culture) are of Turami descent, whereas the Chultans are from katashaka (or Tabaxiland... I need to finish that new map... but I foolishly started yet another). {sigh}

Having a large group (that are canonical) of Mazticans move into Samarach was just my way of sprucing the place up, after the hit it took in the Spellplague. Also, it was NEVER intersting before - it was just 'Eastern Thindol' (which is really bad, considering Thindol was also pretty uninteresting). Since Thindol is reachable fairly easily (compared to maztica), i just thought it was a nice way to get some of that flavor nearby. There is/was a Yuan-ti controlled portal from the north to Thindol in the VG, and there are probably more (I beleive that may have even been alluded to in Serpent Kingdoms - the Yuan-ti and other scalyfolk have access to ancient Sarrukh Gates).

Of course, we could put portals in Maztica (and Katashaka, AND Anchoromé) if we wanted to as well, but then would beg the question, why has maztica only been recently discovered? Why hasn't anyone (from Faerûn) interacted with any of those places before now?

Unless... we say that Ao's 'great reset' somehow reactivated an ancient Creatori portal network (The Road of Starlight and Shadows), and portal-travel has now become easier and more popular in FR (if I were running an FR game right now, I'd go with that). Heck, even before the Spellplague hit, guys like Volo (and I am sure plenty of others) were using portals to fast-travel all over the place. I believe Ed's groups did so... that would mean I wouldn't need to move the Maztican (Aztec) flavor 'closer to home'. Of course, I did it more to get some new (ancient) ruins in the place, so that part still works. If you don't want Mazticans there, you can just go with the 'strange locales' appearing, and the survivors building off of that.

Come to think of it, both cultures would have originally come 'from across the sea', so maybe they have some sort of ancient myths about each other? That could be fun too. Now I REALLY need to finish that map.



You just hit on what I've been saying. My idea for the United Tharchs of Toril relies heavily upon the idea that there were portals built in secret by the red wizards who ran certain trade enclaves. Essentially, the trade enclaves in the Chessenta area (Cimbar/Soorenar/Hlath) had portals built to the trade enclaves in the serpent kingdoms (in the cities of Lundeth, Tashluta, and Samargol). Meanwhile, the portals in the serpent kingdoms (specifically the one in Tashluta) were also right next to another portal to the trade enclave in Fort Flame/Balduran Bay. These two separate portal networks could be made into a passthrough by joining the two portals via a special rod, and after evacuating everyone, the portal was put in this mode. Balduran Bay has portals to the other tharchs in Anchorome/Katashaka/Lopango. Later, when Peleveran was settled, they built a portal back to Cimbar. I'm explaining that all these portals were so new that the magic was still strong in them that they actually survived the transfer to Abeir

Meanwhile, up amongst the tears of selune is a netherese enclave, and it has spelljammers that can get anywhere. The one tharch that I'm not connecting with portals is the Oslander Islands, and that's because I only want a small red wizard presence there overseeing the local population, and access will generally be by flying ship (i.e. spelljammer... usually a quad of thay... so very spaceship looking.... not boat looking). So, Oslander Islands will be a backwater place with people who have a reverence for the red wizards (and the red wizards actually treat them well, teaching them better ways to grow food, using magic to improve their weather for growing crops, etc...).




Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Matrix Sorcica
Learned Scribe

Denmark
77 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2017 :  10:12:52  Show Profile Send Matrix Sorcica a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Oops... you may have taken that the wrong way. The first sentence applies here. Sorry.
The maps that got saved (that I was referring to) was the Chult map I've been tinkering with.

I am currently too busy 'saving the Realms' (LOL) to go back to the amalgam maps... not for a VERY long while. However, my Abeir-in-Chult project has born 'Pazio fruit', in a manner of speaking - I've managed to incorporate the three (pre-parting of the ways) AP's from Dungeon/Dragon magazines.

In fact, it even spawned a city map, dammit... I hate doing city maps.


[darth vader] NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! [/darth vader]

I see now that I failed epically in reading your post
Well, perhaps one day.......

So, what you have left of the MB is what you posted recently on DeviantArt?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2017 :  20:10:40  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, and I probably would have to search for the files. I'll look for them after the holidays - I did have more than I ever posted, but a lot of it was VERY unfinished.

I recall getting stuck on the 'Africanesque' continent. I had one huge one, then divided it, then merged it back together, then I decided I didn't like any of that and had to start from scratch again... which is when I walked away from it all. Which is a shame, because I had the northern sectors all laid-out.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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