Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 Liam's Hold ...
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13261 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2017 :  01:26:58  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, since you just said 'keen to see' I'll get back to it. I had gotten so far, and realized how overly complicated even a 'small stone version' would have to be, and just went on to something else.

But I'm glad you are interested, because it was a cool mental exercise, coming up with a completely stone variant of a draw bridge that a dwarf would make (which included twin 60' long x 20' wide by 2' thick stone slabs that slid-out from beneath two arches on either side.

I was even going to animate it, just for poops & giggles.

Figuring out how the engineering aspect worked was also fun, but it still needs some sort of motive force - even perfectly balance/weighted levers & pulleys would be hard pressed to move what amounts to about a 100 tons of stone. Thanks to a sleight incline, gravity helps it quickly move out of the way - you don't want to have a ship accident because a lookout was relieving himself for a few minutes.

I was thinking about having it slope the other way (downward), but not only would that provide NO strength (and defy logic support-wise), it would also use up some valuable room where smaller boats could simply slip underneath without the bridge going up. Still, I liked the idea of being able to quickly pull a few 'pins' and the two stones slam together on a ship (of raiders, for instance). It does make a formidable obstacle when its closed, though.

The other idea I had was for a bridge built across two hilltops, or having a dirt ramp on either side like a causeway, but that would go against the lore about their being a ford there (seriously, how the heck didn't anyone ever catch that? I bridge over a river that SHIPS use, at the same spot as a ford people can walk across? making one or two of those things work together is feasible, but not all of it - either you were 'high up' for the bridge, or you were'low down' for the ford - you can't have it both ways. the ford implies flat ground around there (yes, there could have been a zig-zagging path down a steep embankment to get to the rivers edge and use the ford.. but we are talking about a MAJOR trade road - possibly THE most important/used trade road in Faerūn).

Having the bridge non-functonional and partially in the swamp a century or two ago allows us to 'fudge' lore that says the bridge is new. However, its just as easy - although not as interesting - to say the bridge was built at the time of the Dragonspear war. Not any dwarves (that I know of) living around there then, but there's always plenty further north, and in Waterdeep itself, and if there's one things dwarves love more than killing orcs, its building stuff and making money. This might be the simpler way to go, considering we already have several 'ancient, amazing dwarf bridges' around the Realms in other spots (including one that comes with its own cadre of dwarf ghost warriors!)

EDIT:
And I've had THIS SONG stuck in my head now all day (except instead of 'Billy Joe McCallister' I've been singing it as 'Bruenor Battlehammer').

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Mar 2017 01:37:03
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13261 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2017 :  03:32:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
By George (Krashos), I think I've got it! The only thing I was still having trouble with was the motive force to turn the four giant gears (the huge stone slabs are slotted on the bottom where the gears can grab them and roll it forward; on the bottom, because if they were on the top of the slab, facing the sky, dirt would collect in them and eventually cause the whole thing to lock-up). Routine maintenance, of course, would still be required (which is why the darn thing didn't work for a few centuries).

So anyhow, here I am thinking about teams of dwarves, and arcane golems, and even having the machinery itself me a magical automaton... and then it hit me! It was literally staring me right in the face the whole time! Water! the water FLOWS.

Even if it does so sluggishly, it still has a current, and thus, has energy we can harness. Not only have I solved this (vents can be opened which would allow water to flow past fins, water-wheel style, which would turn gears, which would turn bigger gears, etc.), I think it would actually function in the RW. It gets locked into place when the two halves touch, and then they just throw another leaver and gravity has them slide right back down to their resting position (most of the time the thing would be left in the 'closed' position, so the 'stone bridge' would always seem to be there... until a large ship comes upriver). Also, there would be some sort of natural (friction) 'breaking' system to slow it down. its only a 5ŗ angle, but we still can't have 100 tons of stone slamming back into the embankment). There'd also be ball bearings or 'rollers' on the slope in case gravity alone isn't up to the task (once again, 100 tons has a LOT of inertia).

After drawing quite a bit of it and laying everything out, I actually think I could build a working model of this thing.
I understand enough engineering principles (I was in construction my whole life) to understand stuff like stress points, fulcrums, weight bearing, etc, etc. Man, I wish I was an ancient Roman right now - I'd build the coolest stuff.

Taking a break now, and then I have to do real work tomorrow (building a laundry room at my son's house... how boring), so Probably won't have a finished version of the drawing to show until the weekend (mostly because I still think I can animate it with a GIF).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Mar 2017 03:34:39
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
545 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2017 :  04:21:39  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Awesome! Sounds badass.

As a side-thought that shouldn't interfere with the above but might help supplement it, I've been wondering how wide the Delimbiyr is. I can't find any sources on it outside of the maps, so I aligned the N5, The North - GttSF, and SotSC maps to get a feeling of scale. Surprisingly, for once the scale stays the same over multiple maps, which is nice!

On all the maps, the width of the Delimbiyr at the bridge is depicted to be about 100' (and about 150' from the town's walls, for reference - so actually quite close). Although the N5 map depicts the river's width to be consistent at about 100' throughout the area, the map in The North doesn't depict the other bank, and the SotSC map has the river widen to the east, to about 200' wide directly south of the town. I actually think the SotSC map is the best representation.

The more you describe the drawbridge, the more I like it, but the ford remains a complicating factor for river-travel, unless we say the ford is only passable on foot when the river is low (either seasonally or only in the past). We still have that SotSC quote to deal with:
quote:
The Delimbiyr River becomes shallow at Daggerford (thus the “ford” in its name), so boat traffic from the east has to stop. This traffic meets with caravans traveling north or south on the Trade Way.

One way to potentially solve it is to say that boats can travel over the "old ford" (Volo's words) just east of the bridge - perhaps the river has risen a bit since Tyndal's time, or perhaps it was partially dredged - but the river is still so shallow at that point that it's too dangerous to sail over unless experienced Daggerford hands guide you through the stretch. You'd also need Daggerford to raise the drawbridge for you to pass. Hence, you have to stop.

Perhaps the town might levy a tax on any goods passing through, and so force boats to stop just before the shallows of the 'old ford', allowing members of the militia to board the boat to inspect its goods (and charge an appropriate tax). Once the tax is paid, a Daggerford sailor guides the vessel through the shallows (a helping hand that isn't necessary for many veteran sailors, but Daggerford enforces the "help" as another excuse for their tax) and signals for the drawbridge to be raised.

Edit:
If it helps, both maps depict the bridge as being about 50' wide and about 150' long from start to finish, with 100' of that length being over the river.

Edit 2:
And for anyone's random interest, the Delimbiyr is implied to be much wider at other places along its length - it's described as being a "mere 160 feet" across at Julkoun due to artificial embankments, implying it's much wider elsewhere.

Regardless of any of this, I get the impression that there isn't much traffic on the river west of Daggerford during the D&D Next era of the 1480s (though I still think our efforts are worth it). Perhaps the lizardfolk of the Marsh have impeded travel there - Ghosts of Dragonspear described a group of evil lizardfolk active there alongside the benign ones, allied with a black dragon called Thoss Fyurnen (Sun Swallower). This could be another reason the drawbridge isn't described as a drawbridge - because no one uses it these days, as there's a black dragon downriver. At a guess from its stats (I didn't play D&D Next, and I'm not familiar with it), it's probably a young adult.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 30 Mar 2017 05:09:42
Go to Top of Page

KanzenAU
Senior Scribe

Australia
545 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2017 :  10:16:01  Show Profile Send KanzenAU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I also had a think about the old ford and if it would be possible for it to still operate with ships passing over it... but I don't think so.

The North's Daggerford map shows large caravel-sized ships docked nearby, which can have drafts of 5 feet or so - deeper than any ford deemed passable as far as I'm aware. I think for this to work (ie. for ocean-going ships to be able to navigate over the old ford), either the river level has to have risen enough for the ford to be impassable by land, or it has to have been dredged.

An alternative would be to say that the old ford is about 2' deep, and some vessels with small drafts can still travel over it if they're careful. Obviously such a thing would remain impassable for wagons, and it would also exclude any larger ships. Alternatively you could make it even lower so a wagon could pass safely over it, but then you're definitely not getting ships through. So, not loving these options.

For my own purposes I'm inclined to say the old ford was dredged to allow ship passage, and go with the drawbridge approach.

I imagine a bridge would have been built as soon as a goodly number of people wanted to travel by wagon between Waterdeep/Daggerford and the south, and it makes sense that it would have been after Tyndal's little adventure, as otherwise he would have used the bridge! So as to that, I guess we're looking at a date for building the bridge for somewhere after 931 DR, and likely after the beginning of the building of Castle Daggerford in 947 DR. Timing it to the Dragonspear War could still work, but I have a feeling trade would have necessitated building it as early as possible, and I'm betting on it being built by the first Dukes of Daggerford in the mid-late 900s.

Regional maps for Waterdeep, Triboar, Ardeep Forest, and Cormyr on DM's Guild, plus a campaign sized map for the North

Edited by - KanzenAU on 30 Mar 2017 10:22:15
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13261 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2017 :  16:21:15  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some of that adventure (and accompanying maps) were based on stuff Erik Boyd and I did in the Under Illefarn Anew project, which was set in the 2e era but used 3e rules, IIRC.

So you'd think I'd use it as a resource... but I didn't. I assume a 'choke point' where the bridge is, either natural or artificial. There was probably an 'old ford' there in 'olden times', before the marsh started to overtake that area (assume here that the marsh reached an unprecedented size for a time, and then receded as things 'normalized'). THE ford being 'at the town' itself makes the most sense - picture a sandbar probably around halfway on the town map, just below the surface where silt collects (and needs to be occasionally dredged). This allows both river-barge and sea-ship traffic on the two ends of town (barges, of course, could go all the way to the sea, and some might even be 'coasters' and travel directly to Waterdeep or even Baldur's Gate. Anything further would be a little nuts, especially in storm season. Some barges might even be able to pass under the bridge unhindered (perhaps they have a way of lowering their masts?), and small boats could probably do so all the time (anything larger than a yacht might have trouble in the rainy season).

I'm going to have to rethink a few things - I always took the pictures on the maps as 'representational', and not 'true-to-scale' I hadn't even considered the bridge size on that map, because I was mostly referencing larger maps, where the river-line WOULD BE purely representational. I have the bridge a mere 40' across, which require two 60' long slabs - general rule-of-thumb in building codes is that when extending anything out past the foundation (or bearing wall) of a structure, supports (weight-bearing beams, etc) must be twice the length INSIDE the existing structure; in other words, if 20' sticks out (on both sides), 40' must be buried in the bank there. This is what gives it all its strength and support (baring magical stuff, which I am trying to avoid).

Even if I double it - which is getting a little nuts, thats still merely 80", but thats close enough to the 100' to be able to say it is a choke-point there in the river. I suppose I'll have to go that route - I'm already assuming some sort of 'special stone of unknown origin' for the two slabs - we see that elsewhere with other dwarven bridges. Apparently they have some 'art' at hardening stone, or treating it with runes, or perhaps its just something naturally occurring in the Underdark that surface dwellers are unaware of. They may no longer know how to make or find that stuff (which could be an adventure unto itself - finding a map or the 'formula' in some ancient dwarven ruin).

Despite how the bridge looks on that map (as I said, its 'just a picture' as far as I'm concerned), a drawbridge requires towers, and there are four, two on either side of the river, which are connected in pairs (so more like archways). The towers aren't very large - 14' square and 30' high, with a top with crenelations, and there are three 'floors'; two actually, the lowest floor is just for the machinery, and the largest. most people would never see the interior of the towers - they are for the maintenance crews, who also maintain a lookout at the tops of the towers to open the bridge. Each tower can comfortably house 4 people in a living environment - they are heated, and have are stocked with some supplies, in case of an attack they can hold out for a few weeks if need be. However, under normal circumstance, only two men stay in each tower most of the time, being relieved by people in town. The two take turns being the lookout for ships coming upriver from the coast. Normally, ships leaving the Daggerford docks are scheduled, and they try to schedule them in groups so the bridge only needs operate about once per day. This means the lookout only need to keep an eye in the one direction. They also serve the duel purpose of keeping an eye on the nearby marsh.

I just now realized while typing this that river HAD TO be fairly wide, to allow ships to pass each other. Uh-DOH! So much to think about to do a simple bridge. The river widens into a small lake around Dagerford before continuing (sluggishly) further to the coast.

And another 'kewl factor' about all this - ships would literally be passing over and through the ruins of Tavaray in the swamp. It would be like that scene in Game of thrones where Tyrion and Jorah pass through Valyria.

There are two separate links there, in case you didn't notice. Wish i could have found something longer/better, but it IS an HBO property.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Mar 2017 16:22:33
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13261 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2017 :  16:30:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I just read on this site that the draft of a coaster is only about 5' - that means that they could theoretically pass over a ford at the town itself, but nothing larger than that. Even a cog should be able to make it, and Norse-type ships would have no problem.

The ship I was actually looking at was the Royal Clipper when designing my bridge - I figure if I took the largest sailing ship in the world as a base, everything else could make it through. The draft on that is 18.5 feet, and I allowed 20' deep water under normal conditions (it might have trouble in a dry season).

So, ummmm... yeah. THAT monster could dock at Daggerford, even without me doubling the size of my bridge.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Mar 2017 16:32:32
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13261 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2017 :  19:43:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am going to continue this conversation over in the new Daggerford thread I created - we've gone WAY off topic here. Plus, I needed to post my Daggerford map, and a link to it, for this discussion, and you can find that there.

Also, I want ChoucrouteGarnieDu42 to post more stuff about Darkness over Daggerford, which the thread should be about. I wanna see more screenshots and maps!

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 Mar 2017 19:45:02
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13261 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2017 :  22:07:46  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nothing new, ChoucrouteGarnieDu42?

I was hoping to get some more info about the town itself, and mostly the "Stop Hole Abbey" - the other two temples have the god's name on them, but I don't know what deity that one is dedicated to, if any.

Any and all help would be appreciated (if anyone else has this old game - I may have to get it myself to finish this).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000