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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 03:21:57
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I am running a group which started with the Adventurer's League stories, then went off the rails in Home Play, and is getting involved in Phlan politics.
Anivar Daoran met an untimely demise, in 1488, in a construction accident. Ector Brahms took the Cinnabar Throne and declared martial law. He appears to be ruling indefinitely, with no heir specified.
One might wonder why neither Seneshal Rolf nor Ector Brahms took Anivar Daoran's corpse to the temple of Kelemvor for a Raise Dead. If asked, how would they respond? That is, if asked by someone they could not afford to ignore, someone capable of casting Zone of Truth and also capable of casting Meteor Swarm?
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 04:31:31
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My instinct is that the temple of Kelemvor would always be willing take payment to cast the spell. However, the outcome is not a guarantee... Raise Dead specifies that the soul must have the will and the liberty to return to the Material Plane. So, I would find it likely that Anivar Daoran's soul would prohibited from returning regardless of a Raise Dead spell... Since the DM determines the will and liberty of the souls of NPCs. Seneshal Rolf and Ector Brahms probably know that attempting to bring him back would just be a waste of gold and would say that to anyone that asked them.
I feel compelled to mention though... If there is someone wandering around any Moonsea city that is willing to petition its rulers with Zones of Truth and/or implied Meteor Swarms... I'm surprised that they ever wake up after going to sleep in town. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 09:15:53
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This issue has been raised many times and the single best thing I've heard on the topic is thus:
Changing laws and issues of legitimacy/succession are always adventure hooks.
So Anivar Daoran is resurrected. Phlan is already a chaotic place at this time. What happens when you inject a former ruler's return into that chaos when he has a replacement on the throne? |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 19:22:16
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My intent was: why wasn't Anivar Daoran raised from the dead *in the hour following the construction accident*? Did Senechal Rolf take Anivar Daoran's corpse *directly* from the accident site at Valjevo, to the Valhingen Graveyards? If not, then why not?
Cyrinishad: DM decides *at the time of casting* if the soul is willing and able. That doesn't apply when the event has already happened, when the DM starts with a pre-written background. If you run a game in Faerun, then either you start on the first day of the creation of Faerun (and rapidly diverge from canon), or you start with pre-written background. Is there any plausible reason why Anivar Daoran's soul would not accept Raise Dead, immediately following a construction accident?
Also, who says that Elminster sleeps within the city?
Mapolq: if Senechal Rolf took Anivar Daoran's corpse *directly* from the accident site at Valjevo, to the Valhingen Graveyards, then by the time people heard about the accident, the Raise Dead would already have happened. There's no successor issue, unless Ector Brahms claims the throne *in the hour following the accident*, which would clearly be a coup d'etat. If you have an answer, please share it; if not, then please don't try to negate the question.
One possible explanation: both Rolf and Brahms *wanted* Anivar dead, to get him off the throne, in the hopes that Brahms could become a better ruler of Phlan. If that's what happened in 1488, then it has implications for what will happen in 1492. For example - what happens if Sahnd Krulek shows up outside the city gates, accuses Brahms of treason in the form of choosing not to Raise Anivar, and challenges Brahms to trial by single combat? How many nobles, guild leaders or Fists would accept that trial by combat as a legitimate outcome? |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 20:19:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Riley37
Mapolq: if Senechal Rolf took Anivar Daoran's corpse *directly* from the accident site at Valjevo, to the Valhingen Graveyards, then by the time people heard about the accident, the Raise Dead would already have happened. There's no successor issue, unless Ector Brahms claims the throne *in the hour following the accident*, which would clearly be a coup d'etat. If you have an answer, please share it; if not, then please don't try to negate the question.
Firstly, I hope I'm misunderstanding your tone, but I don't see a reason why you should assume I'm trying to negate any questions, or why that would be offensive even if I were. We're generally friendly people here, but, honestly, I'm under no orders to answer people's questions, either. I do it because I enjoy talking about the Realms with people who share the same passion.
The question you're asking doesn't have a straight answer (not to my knowledge, anyhow), which is why I didn't provide you one. What I did say is that in a world where people can be brought back from the dead, the issue of the legitimacy of dead rulers is an extremely fine and relevant point that needs to be addressed by any functioning society.
We don't know what are the societal norms, legal precedents and written norms regarding succession in Phlan in the late 1480s. So the answer for your question, like for so many others, is "it depends". Maybe Phlanites wouldn't accept a resurrected leader to be automatically reinstated. Phlan was a republic for a long time, where when a Councillor died, there were popular elections to determine a successor. What if tradition shuns rulers who come back from the dead for any reason, by the principle that it could potentially cause instability? We don't really know.
In any case, said Senechal could have, perhaps, raised the ruler in secret, paying no heed to whatever supposed tradition. Or maybe he would not be able to hide his tracks. It could be that he was a very traditional man himself, and did not wish to break with the usual way of things (which I am assuming here for the sake of argument).
To answer your latest direct question, perhaps if the Seneschal had done that publically, the populace would revolt, refusing to follow a resurrected ruler. Or perhaps the populace would not care, but the judges and bureaucracy would accuse the Seneschal of artificially prolonging the man's rule. And of course, it could be a coup. Perhaps his death wasn't even an accident. But I don't see why you must assume there would be no issues of succession. And I'm not saying there definitely would, I'm saying there might be.
I gave you context which you can use to explain his intentions. I can't tell you what his intentions actually were. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 05 Jun 2015 23:18:13 |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2015 : 00:18:28
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I agree in general that we don't completely know what people (at various levels) think about Raise Dead, since we don't have a real-world precent in Middle Ages history, any more than we have real-world precedents for the social effects of illumination spells on walking city streets at night (or the available spells changing each time D&D changes editions).
Has no author explored this question, though, in any of the stories set in the Realms?
If someone gets badly hurt, in Middle Ages and to some extent today, it is common for several hours to pass before anyone knows whether the person will live or die.
When USA president Reagan was shot, for example, there was an *acting* President, briefly, not a formal succession in which Reagan became an ex-president.
There was no significant surge of unrest when he returned to office. No one in power raised arguments that he had stopped breathing, that he had been dead, and that he was therefore no longer the legitimate president.
If a rock falls on Anivar Daoran's head, and people carry him off to Vilhingen, and a cleric casts a spell, and Anivar then gets up, thanks the cleric, thanks his seneschal for taking quick action, and resumes his activities as Hatemaster...
...and that whole process takes less than an hour...
...does it matter whether the spell was Cure (Amount) Wounds, or Raise Dead?
I'd imagine that successful monarchs who fall off horses and break their legs generally get an immediate Cure Wounds, and successful monarchs who fall off horses and break their necks generally get raised ASAP (even more reliably than adventurers), and that whether they reached 0 HP or whether they stopped breathing doesn't much matter unless someone else is eager to exploit a political opportunity.
If he'd been dead for a full day, and a successor was named and publicly confirmed, and THEN Anivar was raised and reclaimed the Throne, sure, there'd be issues, and there would be traditions which applied to (and/or discouraged) such an event. That's not the scenario I raised.
"There could be a taboo against immediately casting Raise Dead on monarchs who die in accidents" is one possible reason for the seneschal and the Knight Commander not to have raised Anivar, but AFAIK it's not canon... so thanks for the suggestion, and I'm interested in any other possible explanations. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2015 : 12:16:15
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I believe that there was an article in Dragon about resurrections and royal legitimacy but I can't recall the issue number. Regardless, as stated above, there has never been a single definitive answer. In the Realms, I cannot recall a single ruling monarch who was brought back from the dead to rule again. If kings and queens wish to continue their rule, they use longevity magic or pursue undeath (there is a ruler in the River Kingdoms of Golarion however who employs a group of druids to reincarnate him in a new, young body).
With this in mind, my guess would be that royal lineage rules stipulate that should a hereditary ruler die and is brought back to life, it would still count as an abdication - this would be a design to prevent wars over the throne in the royal family - but would still apply even if the ruler had failed to sire or nominate an heir. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 06 Jun 2015 12:17:03 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2015 : 21:43:07
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Interesting. Thanks.
I'm still interested in opinions, if you have any, on the following: what happens if Sahnd Krulek (from Outlaws of the Iron Route; he was framed, and left Phlan, and several Black Fists chose to follow him into banditry) shows up outside the city gates, and challenges Brahms to trial by single combat?
How many nobles, guild leaders or Fists would accept that trial by combat as a legitimate outcome... if Krulek were backed by significant other forces, that is, if the PCs set up a strong alliance which has a plausible plan to restore Phlan's trade and the Council of Ten?
I am aware of the "Tyranny in Phlan" storyline. I have not run it. I find it implausible. I might be missing something, but I don't see how the Cult of the Dragon advances its goals via open rule of Phlan, and I don't see how the Maimed Virulence advances his goals by entering Phlan. If I were a dragon, I would stay far away from any cities in which dragons had previously become possessed. (Am I missing something?) |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2015 : 07:34:35
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Sorry Riley, I completely misunderstood what you were saying in your initial post... I thought you were implying that the Players had gone off the rails and decided that Zone of Truth and Meteor Swarm had become their first options when asking questions...
You really meant that you were considering having Elminster take an interest in the fate of Phlan, sounds good. I've always enjoyed using Elminster as a NPC.
The only D&D games I've run for the last 20 years have been in Faerun, so I'm just going to ignore the tone of the "If you run a game in Faerun..." sentence you posted, and state that my initial suggestions on this topic are drawn 100% from canon sources of published Realms Lore, Cosmology, and Adventures.
I am also aware that the determination of a soul's will and ability to return is made at the time of casting, but my intial suggestion about Anivar Daoran remains unchanged... Why? Three Words: Dark Fey Pact. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2015 : 08:53:52
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Cyrinishad: I meant neither of those things.
There is a significant difference between "This is one of the many things which can happen within the bounds of Faerun canon" versus "This is absolutely the one and only thing which could have happened." Does a canon source say that Anivar Daoran made a pact with dark fey? A warlock pact, or a non-warlock pact? Would you please cite this source?
If it is established, canon Realms lore that Anivar Daoran was a warlock with a dark fey pact which governed his afterlife, and that Brahms and Rolf were aware of this pact, then I'd rather keep my game within that canon. If that is not canon, then I am interested in certain other possibilities.
I am aware of Cvaall Daoran's *mutual defense* pact with certain fey including Jeny Greenteeth. I am not aware of a *warlock* pact. I am not aware of Cvaal binding Anivar to the mutual defense pact, and I am not aware of canon on whether Sir Ector Brahms, as ruler of Phlan, is aware of that pact, nor of his intent to honor that pact. "Tales Trees Tell" suggests, but does not state, that he doesn't know or doesn't care about that pact; he does not take action when the pact is broken, nor does he take notice of (much less reward) adventurers who repair it. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2015 : 07:18:15
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Ok, got it. No Elminster.
I've tried to be consistent in my posts, and only make suggestions, because at the moment I don't think the questions you've proposed so far have answers that fall into the "This is absolutely the one and only thing which could have happened" category.
However, the "Monument of the Ancients" adventure indicates that Ector Brahms definitely knows that Cvaall Daoran made a pact with what he considers the "dark fey" of the Quivering Forest. Additionally, Anivar Daoran is presented as a paranoid/cowardly ruler (unlike his warrior grandfather Cvaall Daoran), is privately not interested in rulership, and makes declarations from a table crafted from a rare wood only found in the Quivering Forest.
Anything past those facts starts moving us into the "This is one of the many things which can happen within the bound of Faerun canon" category... I like the idea that Anivar Daoran was secretly a Fey Warlock, and that Rolf and Ector knew it, so they just don't bother trying to use Raise Dead to bring him back.
I'll think about some of the other scenarios in this scroll after I get some sleep.
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To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2015 : 10:46:41
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Okay, thanks. I am, among other things, trying to avoid doing things at my table which are against established Realms lore. In some cases, that's gonna bring me into the differences between 4E and 5E. 5E does not specify the afterlife effects of fey warlock pacts; detailed rules about afterlife are better left to setting-specific material, than laid down in core rules, but that raises questions about whether *the nature of the afterlife* shifts between a 4E ongoing game and a 5E ongoing game. 5E allows fey pacts with Seelie Court fey; in 5E, a warlock is someone who made a deal, but not necessarily someone who sold their soul, and not necessarily someone who made a deal with *evil*. (One of the PCs is a warlock with a Great Old One patron, and I run that patron more as a friendly, curious 17-dimensional Starfish Alien than as an unspeakable horror.)
Just checking: is it 4E canon, or Faerun canon, that Fey Pact Warlocks cannot be Raised, that their souls are committed elsewhere and unavailable for return?
Thanks for the confirmation re MotA and Brahms' awareness of the Pact. The 5E adventure "Tales Trees Tell" presents Jenny Greenteeth, a hag who's definitely dark fey (she's also a child-drowning figure from English legend), as having the authority to either renew or cancel the pact between Phlan and the Quivering Forest. I find it plausible that Brahms might want to let the Pact lapse, seeing as it's a pact with a rather nasty monster... but then again, a monster who helped save Phlan from the Netherese; see also, Churchill allying with Stalin against Hitler. By the way, Jenny can also give the PCs a box made out of Morcant burl, if things go well for the PCs.
Anivar as a secret Fey Warlock is an interesting idea. If I adopted it as the back story for my table, and if Rolf and Ector were publicly challenged about their choice not to Raise Anivar, then they might be put between the rock of looking like they wanted Anivar dead so Brahms could rule, and the hard place of revealing Anivar's secret. Presumably *everyone* else assumed, in 1488, that Brahms and Rolf preferred Anivar dead.
Then again - why would Anivar as a warlock keep his fey pact secret? He was already a Hatemaster, which is not a title associated with "rules with the eager consent of all citizens", it's more a title associated with "We've already established that my army is stronger, so obey or die". Would followers of Bane flinch at "oh goodness, our leader consorts with the Dark Fey"? The Black Fists are not known for moral rectitude, nor for squeamishness. If the Fists knew that Anivar were a warlock, they would mostly say "Awesome, our ruler has bad-ass powerful magic that most people are afraid to wield, so you peons and merchants and non-Zhentarim better submit to our authority". That's my conception. Is that inaccurate? |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2015 : 17:56:21
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 I just reread my posts, and realized that the way I brought up the Dark Fey Pact idea implied that was the reason Anivar's soul couldn't be raised. Sorry, I'm still a novice at writing posts, even though I've been reading them for a long time... There is nothing that says Fey Pact Warlocks can't be raised...
My initial suggestion is that the definitive descriptions of Anivar make it likely that his soul does not have the ability to be raised (in Anivar's case a Fey Pact would be another reason to prohibit his soul's return), because of the functionality of the Deities and the Afterlife in the Realms. I just like the Fey Pact idea because it's a good storytelling opportunity that ties everything together with Jenny Greenteeth as the true villain, in a way that does not explicitly contradict any Canon Lore.
I'll try and lay out my thought process on Anivar's soul...
When a mortal dies, their soul is transferred to the Fugue Plane and Kelemvor must pass Judgment about the soul in one of three ways:
 Petitioner: The Soul was faithfully committed to it's Patron Deity. It is free to leave the Fugue Plane with a representative of it's Patron Deity, or return to the Material Plane via Raise Dead/Resurrection/Reincarnation.
Faithless: The Soul was not faithfully committed any Patron Deity, or denied faith in all Deities. It is not free to leave the Fugue Plane and is consigned to the living wall surrounding the City of Judgment.
 False: The Soul made a personal commitment it's Patron Deity, and knowingly betrayed it's Patron Deity. It is not free to leave the Fugue Plane and is subjected an eternal punishment within the City of Judgment.
The position of Hatemaster is a personal commitment to Bane. Anivar's combined Cowardice and disinterest in Rulership would put him in either the Faithless or False category when he died, which would mean that even if Ector and Rolf wanted to try and use Raise Dead to bring him back, Anivar's soul would be prohibited from returning. This is a possible motivation for him to try and trade his soul by making a Dark Fey Warlock Pact (since Cvall was able to successfully negotiate a different Pact with the Dark Fey).
A nice additional piece to this is that it doesn't even matter if Jenny Greenteeth can actually take his soul as part of a Warlock Pact... It is known that Night Hags can create a bag that can contain Souls, and Anivar is described as lacking both wit and intelligence. So that could be enough justification for him to either seek her out thinking this is something all Hags can do, or enable her to trick him into thinking it was something she could do even if it is beyond her power. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
Edited by - Cyrinishad on 09 Jun 2015 17:59:41 |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2015 : 00:12:30
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Thanks again, this time for the careful explanation, step by step. I am glad I turned to Candlekeep. I will have to sleep on this before I can apply it to my table.
In this scenario, anyone who knows how Fugue Plane judgement works, and who knows that Anivar is neither courageous nor much interested in dominance, and who knows that Bane holds Hatemasters to high standards of courage and rulership, can reasonably guess that Anivar's soul has high risk of being unable to return via Raise Dead.
IMO Anivar happened to inherit a role which did not suit him, and he should have pursued some other career, so that Phlan could have a properly iron-handed and fearless Hatemaster, but perhaps I'm more flexible about these things than Cvaall and/or Bane.
Yovir Glandon would know all three of these things. Rolf and Brahms might well be well-educated enough; if not, and they brought the corpse to Vilhingen, then Yovir would tell them. No?
I'm still unhappy that someone wrote a description of Anivar's death and Brahm's succession, for the 5E update, and didn't bother to explain whether Raise Dead was considered, whether it was tried, and why or why not. In Earth history, when a ruler dies in an accident, that's irreversible and everyone acts accordingly. But anyone writing Realms background, for 5E Adventurer's League (in which low-level adventurers can *rely* on Raise Dead via Faction Charity), ought to give the matter at least a bit of thought. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2015 : 03:34:39
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Anytime Riley. Thinking this scenario through is helping me prep for my home campaign too...
You're right on the money about Yovir, Rolf, and Ector. After reviewing everything on Ector, I actually think all of his description, demeanor, and actions, are the best example I've seen yet of a character that can simultaneously be completely faithful to Bane and not be Evil. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2015 : 07:34:40
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That's Ector in Monument of the Ancients. The 5E background indicates that Ector holds on to power even when the results for the city are negative. But what options does he have? Can he appoint a successor? He's not a Hatemaster, as such. As Hashimashadoo indicates, it's sufficiently complex to be the setting for a story worth telling.
In my version or "instance" of Phlan, the Council of Ten is no longer running a city, because they're out of practice; it's been decades since they actually rose to a challenge, handled a crisis, made hard decisions, hammered out compromises with factions, etc. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2015 : 18:51:54
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I'm glad you brought that up, because here's another wrinkle you might like that incorporates the 5th Edition piece. When we consider the situation in 1492, Ector is conceivably well within his rights, and obligated by duty to maintain his position of power indefinitely. This is because in Monument of the Ancients he also makes it clear that he believes that the disappearance of Talaric Daoran from Valjevo Castle in 1456, on the day following Talaric's order to resume logging in the Quivering Forest, is because the Dark Fey thought this was a violation of Cvall Daoran's Pact.
We also know that a single day in the FeyWild can be the equivalent of months or years on the Prime Material Plane. I would consider the idea that Ector and Rolf think that Talaric Daoran may have been abducted and improsined by the Dark Fey... and still be alive despite the passage of 36 years (as little as 3 years could have passed in the FeyWild). This could be used as justification for Ector maintain Martial Law indefinitely until he has definitive proof that all the members of House Daoran are dead.
...The coolest part of this scenario is that in 1488 Ector could send a group of Adventurers into the FeyWild to rescue Talaric. If the Adventurers were successful they could return in the year 1492 with Talaric, and battle against the Cult of the Dragon alongside Talaric and Ector in an attempt to restore House Daoran to it's rightful place and free of the influence of the Dark Fey!
And don't even get me started on the signifigance of the number 3 recurring over an over again: 3 Hags in a Coven, 3 Daorans, 3 years in the Feywild, 3 decades in Faerun... any other 3's?  |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2015 : 21:54:30
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3 players at my table, and 3 PCs.
The justification strikes me as sketchy. Brahms has no clear successor, leaving Phlan poised on the verge of civil war whenever he dies, under a virtual Sword of Damocles. Holding Phlan on the brink of civil chaos isn't particularly lawful. If he took action to resolve the mystery of Talaric's disappearance, that would be different - and as you say, that could also be an interesting adventure. Possibly involving the Seelie Fey as well.
My undergraduate focus was politics in Greek city-states and the Roman Republic and Empire, which influences my perspective. See also: the death of Alexander the Great.
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Regime Change in Phlan
