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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
 Posted - 31 May 2015 : 23:09:23
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What's the best characterization of Sir Ector Brahms, Knight Commander of the Order of the Black Fist, in the 5E history of Phlan? What does he want? Is he an opportunist? Is he driven by duty, to make the best of a bad situation, with no legimate heir to the throne? Does he have a vision or dream of what Phlan could become? Does he understand how bad the situation has become for some residents - and does he care about those kinds of residents? Is he proud of the Knights of the Black Fist and their accomplishments?
If you are asserting canonical version, please cite sources!
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2015 : 23:50:11
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Not sure I can answer your question as precisely as you put it, but going off of what I read here, he sounds like his personality would very much fit a tyrant. Given that the linked source describes Phlan as lawless, I'm guessing the man doesn't understand how bad the situation has become, he just wants to maintain control at all costs. He may have a vision, but whatever that vision is, is secondary to modeling the Tyrannical Tenants of Bane. He sounds like the kind of person that doesn't care how potentially beneficial a course of action may be, until he is assured of the exact manner of benefit he will get. He's not a gambler, he doesn't take risks, he is cold, calculated, and assured.
Those are my impressions, anyway. Maybe it'll help. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2015 : 00:01:40
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I would say that's a mischaracterisation. IMO the best writeup for Ector Brahms is in Monument of the Ancients where he is described more as an old, dutiful warrior who longs for the return of the vigour of his youth.
In 5e, he is placed in a position that he neither wants or could possibly be prepared for. It's the Order itself that is bad but Ector sees the bad eggs instituting martial law as better than widespread rioting like Phlan saw when the Lyceum of the Black Lord was burned down. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 01 Jun 2015 00:02:24 |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 06:34:04
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Monument of the Ancients is available at:
<Link redacted>
And of course the Tyranny of Dragons update is at
http://dndadventurersleague.org/tyranny-of-dragons-premier-adventures/phlan-during-tyranny-of-dragons/
Anyone want to guess who destroyed the temple of Bane, and with what motive? Who are reasonable suspects?
Brahms didn't rebuild the temple to Bane; why not?
Does Bane have both tenets and tenants? If so, do those tenants have a long-term lease, or just month to month?
Does Brahms have any plan for what happens when he dies? Does anyone else have a plan for what happens when he dies?
Mod edit: Removed a link to an illegal download; such is prohibited by the Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct. |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Jun 2015 20:28:26 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 18:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Riley37
Anyone want to guess who destroyed the temple of Bane, and with what motive? Who are reasonable suspects?
Brahms didn't rebuild the temple to Bane; why not?
Does Bane have both tenets and tenants? If so, do those tenants have a long-term lease, or just month to month?
Does Brahms have any plan for what happens when he dies? Does anyone else have a plan for what happens when he dies?
From what I've read, it was a citizen riot that destroyed the Lyceum, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Welcomers who actually set it alight.
The temple was not rebuilt because there is no money to employ construction workers. All of the Daoran-sponsored renovations were cancelled for the same reason. Normally, priests would appeal to the church for funds but the priesthood in Phlan have been proscribed by the High Imperceptor in Mulmaster for the heretical belief that was taught in the Lyceum that Bane was actually Iyachtu Xvim (and therefore will not be receiving any church money).
Tenants staying where? In the temple? Most of Bane's worshipers in Phlan were also Knights of the Black Fist who had two bases in the city in which they could be quartered.
I would guess that Brahms would have the regency pass to either his children (if he has any - I'd need to look that up) or his second-in-command in the Knights.
Finally, you cannot post links to copywrite material here. I'm reporting your previous post. Please don't do it again. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 20:31:15
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Finally, you cannot post links to copywrite material here. I'm reporting your previous post. Please don't do it again.
To clarify: Links can be provided to legal sources for material, but not to illegal sources. Even something freely distributed by the IP holder would be illegal if it was being provided by someone not authorized to do so. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 23:20:02
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quote:
Please don't do it again.
Let the mods handle it please. It's not your job to tell people what to do. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2015 : 23:56:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowsoul
quote:
Please don't do it again.
Let the mods handle it please. It's not your job to tell people what to do.
Says the guy telling me what to do |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 02 Jun 2015 23:56:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 04:51:25
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...And I think the topic of illegal downloads has been adequately discussed, now.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 05:30:45
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Know that I was not involved in the Tyranny of Dragons storyline and as a freelancer I have no control over how my creations are portrayed by other designers, but since Ector Brahms was a character in my home campaign during the 80s, I may be able to shed some insight into his character.
The Knight Commander is a loyal, battle-hardened veteran. As a youth, Ector was enthralled by tales of Cvaal Daoran and his valorous defense of Phlan against the shadow hordes of Netheril. At fifteen, Ector was the youngest knight-aspirant ever to pass the trials of the Brotherhood of the Black Fist. When Anivar Daoran ascended to sit upon the Cinnabar Throne, Ector had already risen in rank to lead the Black Fists as their Knight Commander. Knowing the young Daoran scion was ill suited to rule, Ector wisely positioned himself as the Lord Protector's confidant and mentor.
In my opinion, should the Lord Protector meet an untimely demise, Ector Brahms would move swiftly to secure the city before reestablishing the Council of Ten. Ector is a proud soldier but no tyrant. He would gladly serve the council as military advisor, if asked, but he has no designs to rule. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 06:58:59
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Thanks Brian! (Brian is a co-author for Monument of the Ancients.) I'd imagine that WOTC started with Ector as you wrote him, and then... did whatever WOTC does, in terms of building on previous stories and how much they care about consistency.
FWIW, the Adventurer's League publishes adventures set in a Phlan in which Anivar has indeed met an untimely demise, in 1488, in a construction accident. As they tell the story - see the link above to the 5E setting material - Ector not only secured the city, but took the Cinnabar Throne and declared martial law. He appears to be ruling indefinitely, with no heir specified in the AL document.
One might wonder why neither Seneshal Rolf nor Ector Brahms took Anivar Daoran's corpse to the temple of Kelemvor for a Raise Dead; or if this was tried, why would his spirit decline to return?
Hey, a regent who then becomes direct ruler - that was also a plot point in Lord of the Rings! See also: Oliver Cromwell and his son Richard.
Delwa refers to "the Tyrannical Tenants of Bane". Thus, my question about tenants and tenets. MotA indicates, however, that the Phlan temple in Bane diverged from the teachings of the main temple in Mulmaster, and was a more moderate version, and that the Black Fists were by-and-large not particularly devout Banites. (One of the "Defiance in Phlan" adventures indicates that there is an active Bane faction within the Fists, which practices torture and demihuman sacrifice.) |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 07:09:09
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Related question: would Ector Brahms be a member of one of the Five Factions? Were all of the Black Fists sworn as members of the Zhentarim?
Who in Phlan would be the most prominent members of the Lords Alliance?
After the fall of Zhentil Keep, who would send trade caravans to Phlan along the Iron Route? (Does post-fall Zhentil Keep have anything to export?) |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 12:47:11
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I doubt Ector or the Black Fists would openly claim to be a member of any of the factions.
One of the Adventurers League modules actually states that there is only one member of the Lords Alliance in Phlan (and that he is secretly not a true noble!)
Phlan had long been the closest ally of Melvaunt so traditionally, they would've been trade partners. However, Melvaunt also had strict anti-Zhentarim policies in place when Cvaal Daoran conquered the city. I don't know how Melvaunt would've reacted to that. Both Netheril and Myth Drannor were trying to make inroads into Phlan before the Sundering but neither were particularly successful. During the Tyrranny of Dragons, nobody was trading with Phlan because the caravanners didn't like that it was under martial law.
Only pirates and bandits have been noted as living in Zhentil Keep after its fall. I don't think Phlan would trade with them. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 03 Jun 2015 12:50:03 |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 22:08:21
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Hashimashadoo, you are a reliable question-answerer!
Sure, Ector would not *announce* membership, but if a PC had high rank in the Zhentarim, and used a Zhentarim recognition password, would Ector reply in kind?
I have heard that Vovir Glandon, priest of Kelemvor, has rank in Lords Alliance. In "Defiance in Phlan", an NPC reveals that he a member of the Lord’s Alliance. One can gain Lords Alliance status by helping an NPC in "Outlaws of the Iron Route", which is a bit odd if that NPC doesn't connect to any LA member. Perhaps there's inconsistencies between writers? I know of the not-so-noble character to whom you refer, but I didn't see a claim that he's the only LA member in Phlan. I will re-read that one.
"Outlaws of the Iron Route" stipulates trade along the Iron Route. I find it plausible that there could be trade caravans from the Zhentil Keep area, which carried goods acquired by bandits and pirates, and that SOME merchants in Phlan would turn a blind eye to the source, as long as the profits were good; and that bandits and pirates would pay well for weapons and similar supplies. If caravans refused to enter the city itself, due to martial law, the exchange could happen elsewhere. |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 22:43:04
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I intend these words peacefully, so please take them as such:
- I posted a link to a PDF of "Monument of the Ancients" without stopping to consider ownership issues. I'm sorry.
- I interpret Hashimashadoo's post as a civil request, from one user to another; and also as fair warning, that he was referring the matter to those who have mod authority. If I had seen that post right away, I would have edited my post to remove the offending link. In that scenario, the mod would have arrived and the offending link would already have been gone, and no mod edit would have been required. So the fair warning could have been to my benefit; it's better to clean up one's own mess. |
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Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 02:53:38
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| Riley, you haven't been banned from the forums, the mods modded as mods must, and Hashimashadoo is still posting replies to your questions... I think you're probably okay. Regardless, it was noble of you to make amends. Don't let Hashimashadoo's instinctive paladinhood scare you away from continuing to post questions and contribute to conversations on the forum. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 07:04:43
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| Hashimadoo has my gratitude. I think we're hitting the limits of what can be determined from "canon", and more in the territory of making up a plausible scenario, and that's fine. My goal here is to gather ideas for my D&D table. The PCs are actively conspiring to cause regime change in Phlan; it's a more interesting story, to us, than just following the quests given by NPCs. |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 08:58:56
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| Ah, well, if you're seriously considering your players being directly involved in regime change then perhaps you should read ahead through to the end of that series of modules if you haven't already. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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DiscerningDM
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2015 : 21:25:07
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(Lurker with a message) The ending of the Tyranny of Dragons season has Phlan taken over by Vorgansharax, a green dragon with a crippled wing, by force of Black Fist members subverted by the new Cult of the Dragon. Everyone, including Ector, I believe, flees the city to other sites along the moonsea . It's kind of a downer ending.
Whether your home game is better served by having WotC hit the "self-destruct" button on Phlan, is your decision :-) |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2015 : 23:52:13
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Well, I was hoping to avoid spoilers...
The stated reason for this is because the players at that point in the campaign are not at an appropriate level to survive such a challenge. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Riley37
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2015 : 09:53:03
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Repeating a loose end question: Ector would not *announce* membership, but if a PC used a Zhentarim recognition password, would Ector reply in kind?
(I generally object to "the PCs would not know" unless you have canonical proof that NO possible PC, not even a clever team of 20th-level PCs, could have means to find out.)
The "stated reason" is silly. Who's to say what level the PCs might have reached, in a home game? They can't play "Under Emerald Claws" in Adventurer's League if they're higher than the level range, but home games don't have that restriction.
Of course, that's not the only silly aspect: how does a dragon with a crippled wing enter Phlan and reach Valjevo, *without anyone sounding an alarm*? Think of it this way: A player says "My PC, in dragon form and invisible, enters the city and proceeds to the castle." What DM would rule that no one hears any footsteps, and that the dragon can make its way through city streets without brushing against people and knocking things over?
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Ector Brahms, Phlan 1492
