| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 14:22:09
|
Thanks for the clarification Ayrik, I think I see where you're coming from now. So, basically the suggestion is that any of these Interloper/Racial deities are essentially stasis clones of the original deity... Identical to the original deity until the time they are awoken by worshipers of Toril (or any other world), at which point their realm of experiences, thoughts, judgements, etc. diverge from the original deity to create a deity unique to that world that merely shares the name of the origin deity.
That's an interesting proposition that will require some serious consideration. I think this also provides for a fairly reasonable mechanism to justify deities returning after being killed or destroyed. This also ties in nicely with Rymac's observation on the diverging alignments of the various incarnations of Mystra, since under this presumption each returning incarnation of a deity would not be indentical to the previous incarnation. This opens up a lot of possibilities with the Sundering, essentially saying that although all the deities are back, they aren't the same exact deity. |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
 |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 16:11:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
This opens up a lot of possibilities with the Sundering, essentially saying that although all the deities are back, they aren't the same exact deity.
When Mystryl died, her divinity went to a chosen mortal vessel... And the same thing happened with Mystra 1.0.
Officially, Bhaal was reborn thru his Bhaalspawn, and though I personally maintain that Bane is dead and that Xvim is impersonating him, the official line is that Bane was reborn thru his son Xvim.
So there is a precedent for deities being reborn and somewhat modified; Bane 2.0, in particular, has a lot more in common with Xvim than he does with Bane 1.0. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 16:56:29
|
Right on, Wooly... and perhaps the beings that assumed the mantles of Mystra, Bane, Bhaal, etc. are shaped by the faith of worshippers. Which is why Xvim/Bane and his clergy continually insist that it is actually Bane reborn and not Xvim, because the more that the people of Toril believe him to actually be Bane reborn, the more his assumption of the mantle of Bane will become divine reality. And if the idea that he were actually Xvim became the dominant idea again, it would lessen his power and revert him back to Xvim... Good stuff.
This concept makes Oghma and Leira major players in shaping and controlling knowledge, perhaps giving them the ultimate power to literally transform or resurrect or create deities over time.
Along these lines... Anybody have any theories as to who or what has assumed the mantles of the other returned deities? |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2015 : 20:07:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cyrinishad
Right on, Wooly... and perhaps the beings that assumed the mantles of Mystra, Bane, Bhaal, etc. are shaped by the faith of worshippers. Which is why Xvim/Bane and his clergy continually insist that it is actually Bane reborn and not Xvim, because the more that the people of Toril believe him to actually be Bane reborn, the more his assumption of the mantle of Bane will become divine reality. And if the idea that he were actually Xvim became the dominant idea again, it would lessen his power and revert him back to Xvim... Good stuff.
Actually... We have cases of deities impersonating fallen deities, in order to increase their power. Lolth impersonating the fallen Moander is a good example. My theory is that Xvim has deliberately assumed the identity of Bane, because he wants Daddy's worshipers and reputation. Xvim was a newcomer on the divine scene -- Bane was well-known and established. Impersonating him would be a big boost.
It's just a theory, but there are a lot of little things that support it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2015 : 01:51:48
|
quote:
Cyrinishad
Thanks for the clarification Ayrik, I think I see where you're coming from now. So, basically the suggestion is that any of these Interloper/Racial deities are essentially stasis clones of the original deity... Identical to the original deity until the time they are awoken by worshipers of Toril (or any other world), at which point their realm of experiences, thoughts, judgements, etc. diverge from the original deity to create a deity unique to that world that merely shares the name of the origin deity.
That's an interesting proposition that will require some serious consideration. I think this also provides for a fairly reasonable mechanism to justify deities returning after being killed or destroyed. This also ties in nicely with Rymac's observation on the diverging alignments of the various incarnations of Mystra, since under this presumption each returning incarnation of a deity would not be indentical to the previous incarnation. This opens up a lot of possibilities with the Sundering, essentially saying that although all the deities are back, they aren't the same exact deity.
Basically, yes. Except my view is that there isn't any "original" deity, an archetype or template from which all the other-same versions of that diety are derived. Realms-Tyr is (paradoxically) said to be just as old as Norse-Tyr - I think "both" Tyrs are unique individuals (defined and redefined and constantly reshaped by their respective believers and faiths, and in at least one instance also by a proximately superior power - Ao). So which is the "original" and which the "clone"? Again, a common power among D&D deities is an ability to maintain multiple instances of self, to be in many places and occupy many bodies (avatars) and possess many minds all at once, in a unified-yet-apart manner we puny mortals cannot comprehend.
In the Realms there is also Kezef the Chaos Hound, named also as the Fenris. Clearly identical in essence to the Wolf Fenrir of Norse mythology (although perhaps not fated in the Realms to be an instrument of Ragnarok, lol, and also deemed a Primordial as of 4E). Dendar the Night Serpent (also a Primordial, these days) is just as clearly a Realms adaptation of the Nidhogg wyrm of Germanic mythology (and he nibbles on the next best thing available in Realmslore since no caves under the roots of Yggdrasil are handy).
Yet we have Helm, I think originally a version of Heimdall, and now a very different sort of god indeed. In the Realms he has been known to vigilantly guard things and ban Mystra from ascending a Celestial Staircase but is generally interested in substantially different sorts of portfolios and functions than his Norse counterpart.
And the Ouroborus World Serpent of Realmslore is an entity almost entirely unrelated to any mythological (or Planescape) counterpart elsewhere in the cosmos. About the only important thing they have in common is their symbol. In recent Realmslore, a variety of truly ancient beings - such as Bahamut, Tiamat, Lolth, and Asmodeus - have (in cosmic timescales) been drastically and dramatically changed in fundamental ways almost overnight. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Cyrinishad
Learned Scribe
300 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2015 : 05:22:30
|
Here's some more fuel for the Heresy Fires... We know that the lore on the creation/relationships of the deities in the Realms is really just "What Oghma says happened"... and we now know that Talos = Gruumsh, which is a contradiction of Oghma's creation myth... Has anyone considered what else he's mixed up about?
Here some things floating around in my head at the moment:
1. Does every Racial Deity actually have a Torilian Deity alter ego, so that they can draw divine power the other races? ...I like Gruumsh and all, but somehow I don't think he was the first or only one to come up with this idea.
2. What if Oghma got the creation of Mystryl backwards? The original twin deities were actually Mystryl(Weave) & Shar(Shadow Weave)... And Selune (the moon) is instead the product of Mystryl, along with Amauntor/Lathander (the sun) and Jannath/Chauntea (the planet Toril). Doesn't seem like much of stretch to me.
3. What if Helm didn't lose his divinty during the Time of Troubles, not because AO chose for him to keep it, but instead because AO couldn't take it away... because Helm isn't a deity at all... Helm is AO's Avatar.
Any other ideas rolling around in people's heads? |
To know, is to know that you know nothing. That is the meaning of true knowledge. -Socrates
Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. -Dr. Seuss |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Heretical Cosmology of the Realms
