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Taurendil
Acolyte
Chile
43 Posts |
 Posted - 09 May 2015 : 15:23:04
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Hi guys! Since WotC published his Dragonlance minotaur playable race this week, I've been working in a Realms version. I erased all the seafarers characteristics and enriched it with the lore within this scroll: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6203
I would appreciate any criticism and errata, since I'm not english native.
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Minotaur (Forgotten Realms)
Beasts from Tales
A rare sight, minotaurs in Faerûn are imposing figures wherever they may be. Although many people thinks these creatures are no good, not many are brave (or stupid) enough as to ask them for the veracity of the tales about their pacts with bull-demons, evil wizards and others creatures of the dark.
For Gold And Survival
In truth, anyone who sees a minotaur in daylight or civilized area it’s probably because he has encountered some mercenary captain and his troupe on a mission or the guard for a convoy of some fancy noble.
Priced as fierce and strong warriors, free minotaurs earn a living not different from any other adventurer. They strive for their closed communities and for keeping in the past the history of slavers and « dark employers » attached to this race from millenia long ago.
Isolated Legacy
Since some small tribes and individuals managed to escape from their previous drow masters from the Underdark or the now undead infested lands of Thay, little isolated settlements began to form. Living in hidden valleys, hills or the gorge of some canyon, these communities act as home and refuge for those who do not wish to be at reach of their previous connections.
Of course, for every minotaur on plain sight there are still unnumbered ones in the dark corners of Toril. They please themselves in continuing the old dark and sadistic ways of their people.
Minotaur Traits
Your minotaur character possesses a number of traits according to the common history of the race.
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength and Constitution score increase by 1 each.
Age. Minotaurs enter adulthood at around the age of 17 and can live up to 150 years.
Alignment. As they frequently work as mercenaries or guards, the majority of free minotaurs tends toward neutrality. Of course, slavers and Underdark-linked individuals are more likely to be attracted toward evil.
Size. Minotaurs typically stand well over 6 feet tall and weigh an average of 300 pounds. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Horns. You are never unarmed. You are proficient with your horns, which are a melee weapon that deals 1d10 piercing damage. Your horns grant you advantage on all checks made to shove a creature, but not to avoid being shoved yourself.
Goring Rush. When you use the Dash action during your turn, you can make a melee attack with your horns as a bonus action.
Dark Heirloom. Whenever you make an Intelligence (History) check related to Underdark or Thay lore you are considered proficient in the History skill and add double your proficiency bonus to the check, instead of your normal proficiency bonus.
Cattle Driver. You make Strength (Intimidation) skill checks instead of Charisma (Intimidation) skill checks. You have advantage in this checks against creatures of your size or smaller.
Roar of the Beast. As a bonus action, you can attempt a Strength (Intimidation) check against a Wisdom check of one oponent that can see or hear you. If you succed, the AC of that oponnent gets a -2 penalty until his next round.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common. Additionaly you may also know Undercommon or Mulhorandi.
Minotaur Bonds
You can use this table in addition to or in place of your background’s bond or a bond of your creation.
d6 Bond
. 1 I had a bizarre and sadistic relation of dominance from my former drow master/mistress. Now that I’ve escaped chances are he/she will not leave me alone.
. 2 I feel almost magically attracted to the last belonging of my recently and mysteriously dead friend, a hoof with the head of Baphomet engraved on it.
. 3 My last employer betrayed me, and now I’m back as a servant in the Underdark.
. 4 Working with the Thayan Enclaves and the Red Wizards gives me a safe and stable income, and a place to stay in every major city.
. 5 I’ve heard of some sage that claims there exist a pacific kingdom of my people across the Trackless Sea. I must know if this is true or not.
. 6 I’ve founded a little settlement and I will defend it and make it prosper, for it will grow to be the first minotaur-ruled free city in Faerûn.
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- Ideas desordenadas sin RPG en específico www.juegoconamnesia.blogspot.com (Spanish)
- Des idées en vrac pour n'importe quel JdR www.jeudeloubli.blogspot.com (French) |
Edited by - Taurendil on 09 May 2015 15:27:50
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2015 : 16:39:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Taurendil
Hi guys! Since WotC published his Dragonlance minotaur playable race this week, I've been working in a Realms version. I erased all the seafarers characteristics and enriched it with the lore within this scroll: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6203
I wish I had the time to properly revisit that topic... I wish ShadowJack was still active, to bounce ideas off of. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2015 : 00:46:22
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| Is the cannibalism by minotaurs going to be addressed at all? Is it similar to that of gnolls or will it be completely different? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Taurendil
Acolyte
Chile
43 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2015 : 05:22:52
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To my knowledge, there isn't any canon lore that states minotaurs in FR are cannibals. The sources you state are all in base of plain D&D information (even the article in FR wiki), not FR history.
Not saying that you can't play a cannibal minotaur in the Realms, but since it's not a stablished fact I leave the decision to the player, and not as a rule. |
- Ideas desordenadas sin RPG en específico www.juegoconamnesia.blogspot.com (Spanish)
- Des idées en vrac pour n'importe quel JdR www.jeudeloubli.blogspot.com (French) |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2015 : 14:30:26
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Um... question. Is there FR canon that directly contradicts minotaurs being anthropophagic as they are clearly stated to be in the D&D stats and sources? Between the greek legend and the 1974 D&D write-up there is a long history of minotaurs being man-eaters; however, your take that the absence of the FR materials repeating the Minotaur's write-up verbatim as reason enough to discount it altogether is certainly provocative.
Are horns found on all minotaurs or are they limited to bulls? You also have minotaurs living for 150 years which is about double the amount stated in Dragon magazine #116 "Ecology of the Minotaur" (80 years). What is the reasoning for having these things be so long-lived when other civilized races do not live so long? The ability adjustments are slight making the physical capabilities of a minotaur well within the range of human abilities. If these guys are not physically impressive then how do they make their mark in a world full of giants, ogres, hobgoblins, orc hordes, and other beasts more terrible than these perennial foes?
Cattle Driver is certainly misnamed as cattle are large creatures and your minotaur write-up is a medium creature. Also, the regular rules allow for Strength to be used in substitution for Charisma when making Intimidate checks where feats of physical prowess would apply. The net result is no gain on your write-up and should just be discarded as something all strong characters can do anyway regardless of race.
As for Dark Heirloom, why history? Why would a minotaur, educated or not, have a special ability to recall facts and stories about things that happened in a land 100 to 10,000 years before he was born? Why is it limited to just those lands? Is this the result of an oral tradition and tribal story-telling? Or is this just the result of magical tinkering with the minotaurs' ancestors?
You make no mention of the low cunning abilities of minotaurs like their perfect sense of location, ability to never be lost, heightened awareness to their surroundings, fantastic ability to track prey, inability to be surprised, and utter ferocity when enraged. They can see in the lightless environs of the Underdark and they can sense when anyone closes within 30' by scent alone. Do your minotaurs not have these abilities? If not, how did any minotaurs survive the incredible dangers of the Underdark?
You make no mention of a society, religion (such as Baphomet - the Demon Lord of Minotaurs), relations to baphitaurs (demon/human/minotaur hybrids created by wizards of Netheril), or how they interact with civilized people. What is their level of technology? Obviously they are educated since they start out literate, but how does that come to be? How do minotaurs interact with each other? The write-up here is so vastly different from their appearance in Savage Species or any other D&D or FR source that I cannot reconcile the two without more information of what you envision these things to be because they are not the powerful brutes and horned terror incarnate which are the minotaurs of TSR and WotC (Krynn minotaurs not withstanding). |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2015 : 16:13:04
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I wouldn't call his lack of desire to make his version of a race in line with the cannibalistic nature of some Minotaur race write ups that are not explicitly part of Realms lore provocative.
He simply has a vision for the race that doesn't match some lore you've read. In other non-Realms lore, the good Minotaur of Narnia are not cannibalistic, nor are those of Krynn from what I've seen, though I'm not well read on the lore of Dragonlance. So there's an equally long history of minotaurs as a peaceful race for our fellow scribe to pull from.
Many other stories I've read portray Minotaurs as noble, but stubborn beasts. If Taurendil wishes to create such a race, there's nothing I'm aware of in canon that he has to re-write to make his vision fit Toril. I see no problem with that.
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- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
Edited by - Delwa on 10 May 2015 16:13:51 |
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Taurendil
Acolyte
Chile
43 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2015 : 16:45:06
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quote:
Is there FR canon that directly contradicts minotaurs being anthropophagic as they are clearly stated to be in the D&D stats and sources?
There is no information pro or against that fact, to my knowledge. Do you think that it should be stated in the race profile? I find that a little restrictive for the player who uses the race.
quote:
You also have minotaurs living for 150 years which is about double the amount stated in Dragon magazine #116 "Ecology of the Minotaur" (80 years).
quote:
The ability adjustments are slight making the physical capabilities of a minotaur well within the range of human abilities.
I didn't change those two factors. They are as they were in the original Unearthed Arcana by WotC, although for Dragonlance minotaurs. I suppose that, since "level adjustment" doesn't exist now, they wanted to make minotaurs more in balance with the rest of the races. I will leave age blank for now.
quote:
Cattle Driver is certainly misnamed as cattle are large creatures and your minotaur write-up is a medium creature. Also, the regular rules allow for Strength to be used in substitution for Charisma when making Intimidate checks where feats of physical prowess would apply.
I agree with name change. Any ideas of new names? And I think Intimidation checks with strength are at DM discretion, not anytime you want. Originally, I changed "Cattle Driver" from a skill that gives proficiency with navigator tools (not a very impresive skill either). I did it so to keep the balance of the race, as originally thought.
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As for Dark Heirloom, why history?
The answer to that is in the scroll that I mentioned. There is canon lore that shows minotaurs as enslavers under drow civilization, and that at some point they traveled deep into de Thayan plateau. From the isolation they have shown I assume that oral tradition has mantained this knowledge down the line. And again, Dark Heirloom comes from the skill in the original DL minotaur Labyrinthine Recall ("You can perfectly recall any path you have traveled."). Not a combat skill, not that impresive either.
quote:
Do your minotaurs not have these abilities? If not, how did any minotaurs survive the incredible dangers of the Underdark?
Being useful slavers and combatants to the drow. But I take your point.
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You make no mention of a society, religion (such as Baphomet - the Demon Lord of Minotaurs), relations to baphitaurs (demon/human/minotaur hybrids created by wizards of Netheril), or how they interact with civilized people. What is their level of technology?
All that is true, but I won't expand the write-up until a more polished version of the race.
As a conclusion from all of your comments, I take that the general problem of my race profile (and in that sense, also the WotC dragonlance minotaur profile in wich it is based), is that it doesn't look powerful/menacing/savage enough, at the standards that we have of minotaurs in our heads. |
- Ideas desordenadas sin RPG en específico www.juegoconamnesia.blogspot.com (Spanish)
- Des idées en vrac pour n'importe quel JdR www.jeudeloubli.blogspot.com (French) |
Edited by - Taurendil on 10 May 2015 16:48:33 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 10:12:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Taurendil
As a conclusion from all of your comments, I take that the general problem of my race profile (and in that sense, also the WotC dragonlance minotaur profile in wich it is based), is that it doesn't look powerful/menacing/savage enough, at the standards that we have of minotaurs in our heads.
Yes! Part of the appeal of deciding to play an orc, or a gnoll, or a troll as a player character in the Forgotten Realms is that you are playing something with an alien mindset that accepts as standard practice that which civilized people would find odious, revolting, or horrifying. Such concepts as casual violence, eating the dead of friend & foe alike, ritual bloodletting/scarring, challenges for dominance, bullying the weak and being bullied by the strong, might makes right, and the will to survive superseding all other laws or social conventions represent very challenging behaviors from very scary-looking creatures that had long been outcasts and de facto enemies of polite societies. These are inhuman things that survive in inhospitable terrain, thrive even, and savagely attack any who trespass on their domain if not marauding out to murder and pillage everything that they can carry from weaker races. This is the set to which minotaurs have belonged.
Your write-up is different. Okay. These are not at all like the Monster Manual (in all of its incarnations) minotaurs in either physical or psycho-social aspects. So that highly detailed and well written aspect has been defenestrated. This is where it gets tricky because a new definition of minotaur must be substituted and make sense within the current FR canon. The problems that arise are the canon ties to a demon lord, an utter lack of presence amongst recorded civilizations as anything other than beasts and mercenaries, the thriving of minotaur populations underground where light is a hindrance, and every source still lists them on the side of the bad guys. There is much there to reconcile in terms of survivability, group mentality, and generational ecology.
If the average minotaur is barely more capable than the average human then what is preventing them from being snuffed out? Orcs and goblinoids outbreed humans and their allies as their hordes multiply and periodically burst out of their environs to swamp all nearby civilizations. Trolls, ogres, and giants have superhuman physical abilities that can match any 10 to 100 average humans at a time. Gnolls, lizardmen, and wemics ambush prey but will retreat into the wilderness if confronted with a powerful civilized enemy because the farther in the wilderness that enemy goes the weaker and more prone to being ambushed they become. Minotaurs were more powerful than ogres and more devious than gnolls but the rewrite wipes that out.
Civilized people have technology, communication, and cooperation to protect them. Humanity's slight edge in adaptability is amplified by their fecundity. Elves rely on their extended lifespans to have many greatly skilled individuals whom are still in the prime of their lives while being masters in fields that surpass almost all other races. Dwarves have social bonds of loyalty that reinforces their natural prowess and a lifespan just behind that of elves to achieve their own elites. Independently all three have created multiple kingdoms and realms that have lasted centuries and (less often) millennia against all threats. What do minotaurs have if not their strength, guile, natural senses, and all around toughness?
Dragonlance created complete societies and world histories to back up their civilized minotaurs (though they were still very, very powerful in comparison to the new write-up). The 5e version of the Krynn minotaur does not match-up with the pre-5e materials but there is enough of a reason for what they are supposed to be and how they are integrated with the rest of the setting to make sense of it. Plugging the Dragonlance version into the Forgotten Realms is going to require a complete rebuild.
Since it appears you want the write-up to be on par with other starting player character races I will offer my suggestions in that vein. I will also avoid dietary habits but try to keep more dangerous aspects of the minotaurs in play.
Abilities: +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha Minotaurs are culturally used to using physical displays of muscle (str) to get their way and their toughness (con) to survive losing. This physical reliance arrests their developmental reasoning (int) and diminishes their personal identity (cha) outside their temporal power.
Lifespan: 80, though most die of unnatural causes before then.
Adulthood: 15, when young bulls wander away from the controlling elder bulls and their harems/herds
Alignment: The tendencies to rob, dominate, and kill weaker creatures are evil impulses that are difficult (not impossible) for individual minotaurs to ignore. Likewise for anger management.
Size: Medium minotaurs are undersized... runts, if you will... which can help explain why these become player characters because their smaller size makes them easier targets for larger minotaurs to bully and subjugate. A lack of stature is a lack of status.
Speed, Horns, Goring Rush: I'm on board with what you have already written for these (see above).
Oral History: New name for "Dark Heirloom" that better captures the idea that the minotaurs grow up listening to the stories of their ancestors from their sire. Since I am finding references for minotaurs from the Sword Coast to Thay, I recommend that the player gets a choice of up to three regions for which this ability will trigger (see above).
Bestial Demeanor: Reworked "Cattle Driver." You may use your Strength instead of Charisma for skill checks involving bullying (intimidation), blustering (deception), or berating (persuasion) another person so long as there is a real chance for violence by the minotaur. A victim of this will be less likely to be helpful in the future (attitude negatively adjusted). The more this ability is used the more people are driven away by the "dangerous monster."
Predatory Stare: Rename "Roar of the Beast" because it only affects one opponent. The minotaur stares with focused intensity on one opponent to trigger this ability (see above).
Heavy Rammer: Minotaurs instinctively know how to knock people back and down getting a +4 bonus; however, they are terrible at grappling (being hoofed, top-heavy creatures) and act as if they have half their hit dice for grapple checks. -credit hackslashmaster.blogspot
Perfect Direction Sense: minotaurs can still get lost but they always innately know which was is which and receive a +2 bonus to survival checks to find the right way. No negative modifiers apply for terrain or familiarity with environment.
Darkvision: Minotaurs have a limited ability to see in total darkness out to 30ft
Scent: Minotaurs are capable of tracking by scent and can smell when another corporeal being is within 30ft.
Languages: speak Giant, with additional languages available by region of origin. Oral tradition precludes literacy though an option for a literate minotaur will sacrifice Oral History and Predatory Stare for the ability to read and write (necessary for certain classes). This represents a minotaur being raised in a non-traditional (i.e., civilized) setting.
Feel free to rework, denounce, ridicule, or ignore. Optional religion write-up:
Religion: Minotaurs largely believe what they can understand through their senses and have broad interpretations of what they don't understand (like magic, events of weather, changes of day & night). Battle metaphors or feats of strength are applied to these mysteries so that great beings in the clouds butt heads to cause the boom of thunder or a mighty herd of underground minotaurs stamp their feet to cause earthquakes. Despite many fantastic stories that often correctly attribute the right gods' names with the discussed aspects very few minotaurs devote themselves in service to a god and fewer still venerate a deity outside of Baphomet. Miracle workers of martial deities can sway a tribe of minotaurs for a while with their divine magics but the minotaurs will soon become jaded with the displays unless their power is clearly beyond the capabilities of the gathered bulls. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 11:03:59
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Minotaurs were also a playable race in the old 2E Complete Humanoids Handbook.
One thing I'll note about the cannibalism aspect: the various Monster Manuals and such present minotaurs as evil monsters; at least one book has said they are cursed former humans. One could easily make the argument that it is these monstrous ones that are cannibalistic; they are certainly not the more civilized ones Taurendil is trying to write up. I'm not aware of any write-ups of non-monstrous and cannibalistic minotaurs.
We do have at least a couple of examples of Realms minotaurs who are part of human society, and human society usually frowns on cannibalism... So there's a case for non-cannibalistic minotaurs right there.
We also have a canon minotaur nation in the Realms; this implies a degree of civilization, and it argues against them being cannibalistic (hard to sustain a nation on that particular food source). |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 May 2015 11:05:08 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 00:19:14
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I remember complete humanoids. It was one of the things that helped keep 2e D&D fresh and fun to play when other RPG games were vying for the attention of gamers, though it did make excuses to use the Reincarnate spell a little too desirable.
Now, I'm going to make some counter-arguments but by no means am I saying that my point-of-view is the "one true way." My opinion, no matter how pointed, is just an opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We do have at least a couple of examples of Realms minotaurs who are part of human society, and human society usually frowns on cannibalism... So there's a case for non-cannibalistic minotaurs right there.
And if I can point out examples of trolls as part of human societies in Faerun do we also make the same assumption about trolls? Of course, the answer is "no" because we have many FR sources that time and again have repeated the danger of trolls as being ravenous man-eaters. So what are these non-captive, non-slave trolls? Outliers and misfits from the general troll population that can contain themselves (for the most part). We have far less FR information on minotaurs with the core D&D information having taken up the slack since the first TSR Forgotten Realms products were released. Yes, that dearth of information stamped with the Forgotten Realms logo is "wiggle room" but that absence is also a "see default settings" for all beasties without FR write-ups.
And all too often human society has a tolerance for cruelty especially when persecuting a minority (feeding Christians to the lions, ring any bells?). There were many advanced and powerful real world civilizations that engaged in bloodsport and human sacrifice as public spectacles with slaves, captives, criminals, and undesirables as unwilling victims. Civilization is not as civilized as we'd like to pretend that it is and it is all too willing to turn a blind eye to or indulge the depravities of "colorful" citizens.
quote:
We also have a canon minotaur nation in the Realms; this implies a degree of civilization, and it argues against them being cannibalistic (hard to sustain a nation on that particular food source).
Please, tell me you are not talking about Haask and Grong-Haap. Haask wasn't a minotaur and there is no information saying Grong-Haap was a minotaur nation or a majority minotaur population. If there were a significant minotaur population then it was like the Roman Empire at its height where the Romans were a minority in their own empire as the majority of their land was conquered and filled with conquered people as new subjects and slaves. There was something that looked like a minotaur at the top but I believe the common people of the realm were mostly humans, half-orcs, orcs, halflings, dwarves, ogres, and gnomes - you know, the majority of the people occupying the Moonsea region pre-Spellplague. Grong-Haap disappeared after Haask was gone which means that this fake minotaur was the only thing holding that realm together and it vanished without a trace of any other "civilized" minotaur trying to keep even fragments together. This is a bad example to cite for a minotaur civilization and I hope you are referring to something else with which you will enlighten me.
By the by, cannibals don't only eat people. Case in point, gnolls. They eat people but not to the exclusion of other food sources and there are gnolls found in Thay, Dambrath, and Calimshan living inside human cities. If gnolls only ate other people then those reqions would quickly depopulate. Lions also eat people but we are not their only food source nor anywhere near the top or middle of the list of lions' primary food sources.
Oh! Another reason to make the FR minotaurs different than DL's is at the end of the cited scroll that reveals the Dragonlance minotaurs were not originally minotaurs but ogres changed by something called the "Graygem" which altered many things in Krynn.
If Taurendil is not interested in the man-eating aspect of minotaurs because he does not want it as part of his 5e write-up for playable minotaur characters, I can support that. Anyone saying that minotaurs were never man-eaters and were always civil and cultured in the Forgotten Realms... no, I can't support that because that person is arguing points of fact which are disputable.
Minotaur characters are out of the norm, even the original savage race ones. Such PCs are likely to adopt new ways and curb natural tendencies much like foreigners immigrating to a new homeland learning the vagaries of the new culture and forgoing habits that the locals consider rude or taboo. No matter how well assimilated the foreigners, though, they are still foreign and they still have traits and tendencies that reveal their origins.
So, how do you capture the essential image of the minotaur? Minotaurs are strong and tough, they have horns because they need them, they have hooves because it helps them to run down their prey, they are tribal because of the need to look out for each other when united foes come after them, but they are aggressively possessive and drive away rivals or force them to submit. That kind of minotaur is a bad ass and needs to be so in order to survive. The environment which produces that minotaur is highly competitive with almost daily affirmations of who is stronger through tests of both power and toughness. A tussle between juvenile minotaurs looks violent and dangerous to humans because the force used would break human bones but the minotaurs would see that as play-fighting that might result in bruising. The emphasis on strength ensures that the mind is underdeveloped but minotaurs have unique capabilities that compensate for that lack of reasoning and imagination with superior abilities to track and navigate the land coupled with animalistic senses of perception. Minotaurs are not the apex predator of Faerun but they likely are for their locality as well as a serious danger for humans because of this mix of traits. I think my write-up is a closer match to this image and still fits within the Forgotten Realms. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 00:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interested to know that I established a Minotaur kingdom in the Realms in my Dragon article Realmslore: Ironfang Keep. Grong-Haap ruled much of the eastern Moonsea region from -981 DR through -350 DR.
There's proof of a minotaur kingdom in the Realms, from the author of the article himself.
And by citing minotaurs that function in society where eating other sentient races is illegal, I do think that proves that minotaurs are not, by necessity, always cannibals.
Cannibalism could be a racial preference, it could be simple necessity, it could be that the savage ones do it and civilized ones don't... Or it could be that minotaurs in the Realms are not cannibals by nature.
Seeing at least one non-cannibal minotaur -- pretty much the only named minotaur in the setting -- and knowing that minotaurs had a kingdom that lasted for several centuries makes me think that FR minotaurs are not, as a race, cannibalistic. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 13:03:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
You may be interested to know that I established a Minotaur kingdom in the Realms in my Dragon article Realmslore: Ironfang Keep. Grong-Haap ruled much of the eastern Moonsea region from -981 DR through -350 DR.
There's proof of a minotaur kingdom in the Realms, from the author of the article himself.
*facepalm* Did you read the article? In fact, I linked that exact article in my last post! What is there is a miniscule snippet of information that is there more for color on the rise of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul than to talk about minotaurs. The fact that a batrachi-doppelganger (who was the focus of the "minotaur kingdom" information) was masquerading as the minotaur leader who put the shebang together and everything collapsed like a house of cards the moment he was gone tells me that those minotaurs had nothing more to do with the rise of that nation than skeletons and zombies under the command of necromancers. No other grouping of minotaurs has achieved anything like it even on a smaller scale, which means... it ain't normal for them.
Seriously, look how it all came to an end before arguing with my point. The Forgotten Realms is full of kingdoms that have fallen. Unless there is a calamitous event that wipes out the people or forces a sudden mass migration, the fall of realms is a slow event as warlords vie for control, successor states break away, and the last vestiges of wealth & power continue to prop up the banners until an invader or new nation raises a new flag over the ruins of the old. Even Netheril, which had a very literal fall, had three successor states (Anauria, Asram, Hlondath) and two brand new nations (Halruaa, Philock) as well as a mass migration from the Northern empire lands to the Southern empire lands and emigration to Western lands belonging to the elves and/or the dwarves. There are 668 years between the event of Karsus Folly and the end of the last successor state to Netheril. Most other realms follow suit with a long decline, splintering of power, and snuffing of the realm by some outside pressure. A smaller number follow the path of Jhaamdath and suffer the loss of most of the population in a calamitous event leaving too few people to keep any semblance of a civilization going. The end of Grong-Haap was different.
"Haask returned triumphantly to the keep to feast and rest." No matter how I read that I can't force the impression that Haask was going to grief binge over the loss of too many people to keep the kingdom going and curl up in bed in depression. Ergo, Grong-Haap was saved from the outside force threatening it and the population was spared. All the structures for command and communication were intact, the sub-leaders still around, the military still at their posts, and industry ready to resume operations with the threat removed. And yet, Grong-Haap vanished without a trace when Haask was defeated by the Dead Three. No successor states, no vestiges, no advanced minotaurs building on that legacy, and no significant population of minotaurs in that region. That kind of an all-encompassing bust shows that the batrachi-doppelganger was the puppet master and the minotaurs were the puppets - cut their strings and they fall down.
Haask was, without a doubt, evil. A priest-king that trucks with "an elder manifestation of absolute evil and sick malevolence" pretty much is a dead give away that Haask is not warm and cuddly. What makes you think that Grong-Haap was not a kingdom of slavery, capricious brutality, and full of the fearful weak ruled by the sadistic strong? Whose to say the local meat market did not carry "long pork," a.k.a. human flesh?
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Seeing at least one non-cannibal minotaur -- pretty much the only named minotaur in the setting -- and knowing that minotaurs had a kingdom that lasted for several centuries makes me think that FR minotaurs are not, as a race, cannibalistic.
 I pointed out a prominent cannibal race (gnolls) living in human cities across many lands as written in several Forgotten Realms stamped products. I also pointed out a named troll that works as a mercenary around the Lake of Steam... who eats people that break their contracts with him. (I was also going to refer to The Claw mercenary company which is a warband of trolls but I discovered that they were really mind-controlled by illithids who hired out their services so they don't count). The point you are trying to make has no substance, whether you want to admit that or not.
Just like encountering vegan humans does not mean all humans are herbivores, finding a minotaur that doesn't eat people likewise does not make it true that all minotaurs do not eat people. By the by, there is another named minotaur. But if I might point you to a Forgotten Realms stamped product that says the following: *ahem*quote:
Adventurers exploring this level should also beware of umber hulks, Halster’s Maze of Madness with its ravenous minotaurs and magic traps, and the dwarves of Murkstones" - Expedition to Undermountain, p.32
"Ravenous," that is an interesting word to use as a descriptor when warning adventurers of minotaurs. 1: rapacious <ravenous wolves>, 2: very eager or greedy for food, satisfaction, or gratification <a ravenous appetite> It sounds like the minotaurs want to eat... something. Maybe the authors (Eric L. Boyd, Ed Greenwood, Christopher Lindsay and Sean K. Reynolds) are trying to tell us something. But what do I know? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2015 : 16:08:07
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"Ravenous" is defined as "extremely hungry". No particular food is specified.
You may think what you will, but I think that a minotaur kingdom lasting for 600 years makes a strong statement about minotaurs as a race. It doesn't matter who founded it, it was a minotaur kingdom -- meaning the populace was primarily minotaurs.
And I have never said all minotaurs refrain from eating people. Indeed, I have acknowledged it as a possibility for the savage, non-civilized minotaurs described in so many monster books. I have said, however, that a minotaur living in a society that does not allow for people to be eaten clearly shows that minotaurs can live without eating people. It doesn't mean all minotaurs do that, but it shows they can and do live that way -- similar to how vegans prove that not all humans are meat eaters.
We have canon proof of minotaur civilization, and canon proof of minotaurs that don't eat people. So far as I'm concerned, that trumps non-FR material that says minotaurs are savage, cannibalistic beasts.
Until I see something FR-specific that explicitly says minotaurs in the Realms eat people, I'm sticking with the stance that minotaurs have as varied a diet as any other race. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2015 : 08:56:35
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*shakes head* Wooly, do you have anything to add to the build discussion or are you just here to argue at someone? If it's the latter then find someone else because I'm not playing with you any longer.
The bonds in Taurendil's write-up is throwing me. Is that an optional part of 5e character creation for a completely unplanned/random PC?
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d6 Bond
. 1 I had a bizarre and sadistic relation of dominance from my former drow master/mistress. Now that I’ve escaped chances are he/she will not leave me alone.
. 2 I feel almost magically attracted to the last belonging of my recently and mysteriously dead friend, a hoof with the head of Baphomet engraved on it.
. 3 My last employer betrayed me, and now I’m back as a servant in the Underdark.
. 4 Working with the Thayan Enclaves and the Red Wizards gives me a safe and stable income, and a place to stay in every major city.
. 5 I’ve heard of some sage that claims there exist a pacific kingdom of my people across the Trackless Sea. I must know if this is true or not.
. 6 I’ve founded a little settlement and I will defend it and make it prosper, for it will grow to be the first minotaur-ruled free city in Faerûn.
Some of those are incredibly limiting for the player and the game. #6 ties the PC to a location and if every other PC is not a minotaur it stretches the imagination to put those characters together. #4 is only slightly less limiting. #3 begins the game in the Underdark and starts the player in a position of disadvantage. #1, #2, & #5 are all free from restrictions on how and where the game begins. Is this a common thing for 5e bonds or is this an area needing improvement?
If so:
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. 3 My last employer blamed me for a job that ended badly and tried to have me arrested making me a fugitive from my homeland.
. 4 The Thayans held my sire in good esteem and are constantly offering me temporary jobs though I have turned down permanent positions of employment in the past.
. 6 A noble child was unafraid of me as a "beastman slave" and returned my own curiosity. The child kept visiting me until we were both adults at which point the noble bought my freedom and bade me to explore the wider world.
#3 has a vendetta/righting-the-wrong angle, #4 creates a nepotistic connection with a very insidious organization without requiring the PC to be currently working for the Thayans, and #6 is really open to interpretation as to what the relationship is between the unidentified noble of an unidentified realm and the PC. The character is not bound to a particular region, under the thumb of an oppressor, or is required to perform some immediate action under threat of dire consequences. Or is there a requirement for those things in the character bonds section. I'm not at all familiar with 5e. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2015 : 11:06:42
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quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
*shakes head* Wooly, do you have anything to add to the build discussion or are you just here to argue at someone? If it's the latter then find someone else because I'm not playing with you any longer.
I could ask you the same thing, since there is no proof at all that FR minotaurs are cannibalistic, and indications that they are not.
Naetheless, I agree that we are getting nowhere with this one. |
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5e FR Minotaur race
