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xmaxx
Acolyte
France
39 Posts |
 Posted - 09 May 2015 : 13:41:06
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Hi all,
What would be the decent price for potions?
In my campaign, there is no big magic shop.
I let my PCs purchase basic potions from alchemists or temples (healing, strength, fire breath-like) in big cities.
My method is to multiply the XP cost by 5 (I noticed that most of the magical items in some FR sourcebooks - hence canon - cost 5 times the XP cost).
So a potion of Cure Light Wounds would cost 1000 gp.
My players were outraged when they learned the 'high' price of these (I use to sell them the XP price before).
What do you think about it?
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2015 : 20:55:16
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I've always thought the DM has a mandate to keep PCs poor. If they hoard gold (like a dragon) then they will be overpowered and attract endless trouble (like a dragon). Gotta nickle and dime them down, find any way possible to suck gold pieces out of their coffers.
My potion prices were essentially about 100GP per level for basic stuff (healing, love potions, and the like), 500-1000GP for serious stuff (giant strength, heroism, etc) and 10000GP+ for special mixtures (elixir of youth, etc).
A flat 1000GP per level is steep but it doesn't seem entirely unreasonable. Perhaps your PCs can wrangle a deal with some special accommodation? Head off on sidequests to procure exotic ingredients (a rare herb which only grows in the goblin valley, some manticore blood, the pituitary gland of a storm giant, etc). Or transport an expensive cargo of fragile laboratory glassware from Waterdeep, obtain some lost temple scripture or lost mage's alchemical notes which contains a potent formula, reclaim an enchanted cauldron now owned by a nasty old witch, whatever. Hardened adventurers are thus providing a valuable service to wimpy local potion suppliers who can't really accomplish such things for themselves. A great way to upgrade a local NPC and establish a ready source of needed consumables at a discount. Also a great way to saddle the party with a bumbling bookish apprentice alchemist or scribe NPC. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 May 2015 22:16:10 |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2015 : 00:12:38
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quote:
Originally posted by xmaxx
...My players were outraged when they learned the 'high' price of these (I use to sell them the XP price before).
What do you think about it?
Perhaps a little world simulation might help you out. Who would buy such a low powered item at the cost you said? How much does it cost for a skilled person and crew to perform the same effect? Who has money to throw around like that in a sustainable fashion to keep the makers of such things both in a comfortable life-style and able to purchase the resources to make more product? If the cost is really not materials then what is preventing others from entering this lucrative market for cheaper prices?
If someone can make that kind of money when most people are putting in back-breaking effort to earn a single silver coin a day then don't you think a capable individual would turn magic item creation into a business to start amassing a fortune in short order? Even the piddly hedge mages of the most disadvantaged NPC spell casting classes can make low powered magic items that, according to your rate of price inflation, would make them filthy rich. So, how does that economy even work? The closest analogy I can think of is the out-of-control scaled economies found in most computer RPGs that ramp up inflation and luxury-priced goods as the PCs progress in the game.
And if you are worried about magic items being too available then the Forgotten Realms is the wrong setting for you because magic is everywhere. There are ancient ruins of magical kingdoms that are delved repeatedly for their wonders. The game material even says that farmers plowing fields still occasionally turn up magic items lost on the old battlefields that are now generational farm lands. Even well established towns and cities are often on top of older ruined settlements that still yield secrets and magical treasures. And that is to say nothing about the nations, NATIONS!, that export magical items in significant enough quantities to be a significant part of their gross national product.
5e... ... the non-OGL makes looking up information pertinent to your question difficult but I managed to find something that will help you at the game mechanics level. "from page 135 of the DMG - The value of a consumable item, such as a potion or scroll, is typically half the value of a permanent item of the same rarity." This RPG StackExchange discussion has more information relevant to 5e and the dilemma of magic items for generic D&D play.  Holding my opinion is difficult when the game mechanics and the setting narrative are so vastly different. The Forgotten Realms is a high magic setting that is even more fantastic and impregnated with mystical beings and devices than Tolkien's Middle Earth. Yet it is a hard scrabble world where silvers are the most commonly traded coins because that is what most people have.
Let's take a step back and bring this discussion around to the purpose of the game - having fun. If your players are having fun then there is a good chance you are having fun, too. If your players are not having fun then there is an increasing likelihood that you will soon have no game and no fun because you will have no players. There are two rewards players have for their play: character experience and character's stuff. The most desirable of the character's stuff is money because that can be converted into the better capabilities for that character or used to pave the way for the solution to a future dilemma. Inflating prices arbitrarily pretty much knocks down half of the reward mechanic and makes the other half more difficult to achieve. The D&D game mechanics are designed with the premise that characters are going to have increasing amounts and powers of magical items as they increase levels.
Your players are justifiable in being upset since you have just changed the rules of the game after play has begun. You need to talk to your players, tell them your reasoning, and listen to their rebuttal, not as a counter to your authority but as a reasoned argument for the rules to remain unchanged or to be modified in a way that you had not considered when thinking about them alone. Your players will be less upset if they feel like they have been heard and that the changes were neither fickle nor spiteful. The best way to resolve this situation is to talk to your players. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2015 : 00:41:36
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What self respecting Cleric would risk life when can bring in 1,000 gold pieces a day brewing potions.
As already commented, changing rules on players about magic cost clearly something a DM should not do in an ongoing game. Magic shops as such are not required for the game. Any temple, one even in a small town, can produce potions. As to those made by Wizards, some have some nice towers outside of cities. If you make the price very high, they or not very useful acept as treasure. Also such treasure will be will guarded. Lose 20 hit points to break in to be able to heal 1d6+1 points of damage?
I am not sure what Edition you are using, however there should be a recommended price for spell services. There is also the scale of competition. An Orc shaman clearly might offer a potion at a lower price and request a gobin as sacrifice.
Side comment to Ayrik, Gary G. was the one that expected DMs to keep players so poor that they could not even have enough funds to pay to level up. Not all agreed with that concept of keeping them that poor.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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xmaxx
Acolyte
France
39 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2015 : 09:54:51
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FYI, I use Ad&D 2nd ed. and my players are currently in the northern Moonsea area (Thentia, Melvaunt).
Thing is I don't want to get the game unbalanced. They tend to rely on a potion of fire breath (one of the few potions I autorize to buy) every time they face a 'boss'... that sometimes cut the fight very short. |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2015 : 11:52:07
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xmaxx, I hope you understand why I am really confused considering the price guide for magic items has been a standard of AD&D play for decades.
That said, the problem you have is now becoming clearer. It is not the price of magic with what you find fault but the ease with which the players are dispatching your Big Bad Evil Guys (BBEG) that is the cause of your discontent. One suggestion is to have your BBEG have access to a 2nd ed Potion of Fire Resistance (250 gp). Cheaper than a potion of Fire Breath (400 gp), and a protective magic item a villainous type would likely employ if he has garnered the attention of heroic types because "fire" is a famously ubiquitous weapon employed by magic imbued interlopers (fireball, flaming sphere, flaming hands, aganzzer's scorching ray, firebrand, flaming oil, etc...). Anti-magic, countermagic, protection magic, special immunities, traps that force PCs to use their consumable magic against lower power enemies - these are tools for your BBEGs to use.
Another suggestion is to not have your BBEGs go toe-to-toe with the PCs. Again, simulating a situation where a group of impossibly talented people have just cut down your best minions, waltzed through your carefully laid traps, and are bringing your stronghold down around your ears, what would possess you to challenge these successful upstarts when your best laid plans and all your strongmen in prepared positions could not stop them? Moreover, isn't that why the locking secret door to that contingency escape route was made in the first place? I'm pretty sure that your BBEG's ambitions include "not being killed by nameless adventurers in an encounter that is unworthy of mention in the scrolls of history." Do the regular villain schtick of promising to come back more powerful than before and activating the trap that brings down the house as a distraction for your BBEG to make his escape. A cowardly BBEG that knows how to escape and rebuild is far more dangerous than a powerful villain that flames out in a single encounter with the PCs.
A final idea I reluctantly submit is to have the PCs' success come back to bite them. The events of these other 'boss' battles become known as the purveyors of those potions pay bards to spread the tales about the usefulness of the items. Demand surges to outstrip supply as would-be-adventurers, mercenary elites, and nervous nobles buy available stock while thieves and brigands siphon supplies for their own ends. With more of these items out in the hands of people not delving into dungeons there is a rise in disproportionate escalation of civil conflicts resulting in horrific, public murders committed by imbibers of the fire breath potions. The public mood sours on those who use such items. The governing powers seize on that attitude to pass edicts taxing, restricting, or banning those items and others as part of a sweeping authorization by law enforcement to protect the public. This would require a minimum of 3-4 months of game time and seeding several play sessions with background stories and rumors during the course of the changing fortunes. This kind of lead in will give your players a plausible reason for instability in supply, price increases due to taxes and regulations, required registration of dangerous items with/harassment by local law enforcement, even outright bans and confiscation. Even if the items are made illegal there will be a rising trade on the black market at higher prices. And that should also justify these items falling into the hands of various baddies. This is still the weakest option as your BBEGs will continue falling to the PCs with bad breath unless you change tactics.
Your players have found something that works. They continue to use it... because it works. Don't hold it against your players when they follow the principle of "if it ain't broke, why fix it?" Are you going to adapt to those tactics and create challenges that complicate their use? Or are you going to just rule that those weapons are prohibitively expensive/no longer available? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2015 : 22:12:15
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The 2E DMG has a decent table suggesting prices for spells. As in the "normal" prices a spellcasting NPC might charge any random who's willing to pay. Not a bad price guideline for potions, which are basically just spells in a bottle.
Agreed with the above, though. The Realms is a high-magic high-fantasy setting, filled over the brim with NPCs of no great interest and no real significance and no meaningful accomplishment beyond simply being the (unworthy) possessors of far too many powerful magical trinkets. Disposable one-shot consumable magics (like potions and scrolls) should certainly cost far less than permanent magical items/constructs. If a potion of healing costs 1000GP in your campaign, then how much would a longsword +1 cost? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 May 2015 22:19:06 |
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xmaxx
Acolyte
France
39 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 14:55:15
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Thanks for you reply, Sacomon.
I know FR are full of magic. I just don"t like the idea of tending to a Maunty Hall campaign. As I read somewhere in a Dungeon Magazine earlier, PCs rely always on the same tactics and sometimes totally forgot what precious objets they have in their backpacks.
Ayrik, Spells in a bottle indeed.
Meaning they can be used the next month/year/encounter/adventure.
Clerics casting spells for a fee do it from their cozy temple, just touching the target and reciting some prayers.
I don't autorize sales of magical weapons. My PCs can however buy fine balanced swords or sharper blades (+1 THAC0 or +1 damage, not both). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2015 : 18:29:31
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It's easy enough to inflate the prices of your PCs' favourite potions with the simple argument that they've dried up the supply. Indeed, you can kick it up a notch by having this NPC report that the competition - another party of adventurers! - is encroaching on your PCs' turf and buying out the same potion stock. Either way, your potion-vending NPC might have to really stretch his resources and contacts to obtain more of the good stuff, and his extraordinary efforts might be motivated by sheer lust for gold. Maybe these particular potions cost less somewhere far away? It's a seller's market, especially in a world where magical items cannot be readily purchased. A less ethical NPC might water some cheap stuff down into expensive containers, take as much money as he can score, and run. (Whereas a truly malign NPC might use poison instead, to ensure better odds of his escape.)
A potion of fire breathing is not the sort of thing you'd see shelved up in quantity at the local drug store, after all. And the potion vendor cannot risk financial ruin and turn away all of his other business (and livelihood) by investing heavy focus on the exotic/lucrative needs of a single special customer. A special customer who might never return any time he leaves town.
Incidentally - good olde dispel magic can affect all magic in an area, permanent magical items can be rendered temporarily inert, nonpermanent magical items (like potions) can become entirely and irrevocably disenchanted. Another great potion-busting spell is shatter (or perhaps shout or a variety of other sonic attacks), which can destroy large volumes of fragile little things like glass potion vials. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 May 2015 21:20:21 |
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xmaxx
Acolyte
France
39 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2015 : 13:02:01
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| Thnaks for those ideas!! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2015 : 23:37:08
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| I sense the oncoming onslaught of angry players, lol |
[/Ayrik] |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2015 : 11:05:44
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| Tell us how everything works out. |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Cards77
Senior Scribe
USA
745 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2015 : 15:59:05
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| If you haven't' modified the treasure rules, or even if you have, your party should have more than enough potions and scrolls. I occasionally allow them to trade what they find with temples and the few alchemists in major cities. |
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Price of potions
