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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 14:17:15
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Just off the top of my head: an organization of 'lesser' mages who wanted to overthrow the Archwizards. By lesser I mean those who lacked the ability to raise their own enclaves. Whether through lack of actual ability, or lack of connections, being blacklisted or whatever, a cadre of them could band together in an attempt to throw them down.
They would be responsible for some of the upheaval that occurred at various times in the empire's history and maybe for setbacks individual archwizards encountered. I doubt they would side with elves (they are still Netherese after all) but some of them may have been agents for the elves in addtional to seditionists. What I'm saying here is some of them may have actually agreed with the elven way over their culture's way and acted as agents for the elves on top of everything else. But only a very few of them would be elven agents...most would be too enamoured with their own culture to stoop to that.
Taking this a step further, some of them may have been Shadow Weave users but not direct agents of Telamont (though some may have been). Some would simply see access to the Shadow Weave as a secret 'ace' in their work against the archwizards while others could be agents of Shar/Telamont. I love it when these things get messy.  |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 14:22:09
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| Am I right in assuming you have both the arcane age Netheril Products? |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 14:24:32
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| I don't know if its ever been addressed, but I don't think the shadow weave existed before the fall of Netheril... If it did the fall would have been the perfect time for Shar to make her move to replace Mystril and we might have never had a Mystra... |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 15:01:06
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I may be wrong, but the Shadow Weave was never even mentioned until 3e (or maybe very late 2e). As I recall the story, Shar somehow managed to create it some time after Mystryl's 'birth' through Selune. Telamont was already in league with her (and using her weave) prior to his departure for the plane of Shadow as well.
At any rate, Dazzlar's question will be for his homebrew and may not stick entirely to canon. It may even be for a write up in his Alteranate Dimensions fanzine. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2014 : 17:55:04
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When the Shadow Weave was created is never really addressed, though I recall that at least one source said it had been around for centuries.
It is true that it is a 3E thing -- and one of the most poorly thought out elements of 3E, in my opinion. Practically every source that discussed it conflicted with an earlier source, and I don't see that it really did anything for the setting other than make Shar and the Shades more prominent, at the expense of established evil groups and their deities. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 00:28:27
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| To throw in another twist to this 'lower cabal' as I'm referring to it. What if the phaerimm had managed to infiltrate them? Or at least planted an agent who didn't know who he/she was working for? I see them working to throw down the archwizards on multiple fronts as common sense while they work on developing more direct means (lifedrain magic) to do it. They may even have been the 'seed' for the seditionist by covertly nudging them into 'accidental' meetings with one another until they became more organized. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 14:31:20
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In my own "history" for Netheril (which follows along with that given in the Arcane Age Netheril Box set), Nether the Elder had an lieutenant and protege, also a shaman. This protege was the one who stabbed Nether the Elder in the back to allow Nether the Younger to assume leadership. The shaman then served as a sort of court wizard and military commander for the fledgling nation in their military campaigns against the humanoid hordes. One campaign led them against the realm of Thaeravel in the East. A nation of powerful magic, the sorcerer ruler of Raslitch (the capital) possessed a artifact of great power - basically this artifact is an adaptation of the Bloodstone of Fistandantilus from the Dragonlance setting. He used its power against the shaman general of Netheril, and the shaman's spiritual strength proved the greater and he subsumed the power of the sorcerer and became one of the greatest spellcasters of the growing nation of Netheril.
Many arcanists lusted after this magical power and he found himself under almost constant assault, so he faked his own death and began leapfrogging through Netheril's history in one assumed identity after another, living and dieing many times over the course of Netheril's history. His known identities include Congenio Ioun, Tolodine, Trebbe, Jeriah Chronos, Anglin, Lefeber, Valdick, General Matick, and Oberon. As the Chronomancer he spent time in other times and places as well (usually important events in Realms history). For a twist, I have him teach the Imaskari about magic and crafting scepters, despite the fact that this reverses the timeline somewhat. :)
After the fall, he befriends another powerful wizard and when that wizard ascends to godhood, he takes his place as chief servant of the young Mystra and fledgling Azuth as the second Magister, and eventually becomes one of the Seven Wizards of Myth Drannor. I'm betting you can guess which :D |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 17:57:22
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| The one issue I've always had with Netheril is it was done in a vacuum. It seriously should have had involvement with Jhaamdath and possibly Imaskar, and later on it should have had involvement with Narfell, Raumathar, the Mulan empires, etc.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2014 : 19:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The one issue I've always had with Netheril is it was done in a vacuum. It seriously should have had involvement with Jhaamdath and possibly Imaskar, and later on it should have had involvement with Narfell, Raumathar, the Mulan empires, etc....
I agree sleyvas, but in "my" Netheril that isn't as much of a problem as the huge, city-sized enclaves numbered only about a handful and of the other smaller ones, a few "missing" enclaves over the years made them wary of leaving the realm's standard borders.
I've longed to do a history for Netheril. Now that I've finally finished my latest project, I might just sit down and do a Netheril Timeline and see what I can come up with.
The crux of any such historical work is to sort out how the realm governed itself and to detail its interactions with the outside world. My view is that the Netherese weren't "all conquering" and had their butts handed to them on a few occasions. Thoughts for another day ...
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 07:18:55
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I am very interested in what this latest finished project may be.
Well, anyone at the Candlekeep seminar at GEN-CON will get a real good look at it.
For everyone else: send me a PM with your e-mail address.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 08:45:05
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Sending PM now...
@MM: Sounds like your guy is similar to my Xarthalion (aka the Arcanamach). In my homebrew he found the 'Orb of Labelas' that sort of infected him with magic that Quantum Leaps him to various times and places in history. He had no control over it at first but as he grew stronger in the Art he managed to exert some influence over it. He still gets pulled at random, but sometimes he can Leap on his own.
To those who see him when he Leaps it just appears that he was lost in thought for a few seconds. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
Edited by - The Arcanamach on 10 Aug 2014 08:51:31 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 13:52:43
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The one issue I've always had with Netheril is it was done in a vacuum. It seriously should have had involvement with Jhaamdath and possibly Imaskar, and later on it should have had involvement with Narfell, Raumathar, the Mulan empires, etc....
I agree sleyvas, but in "my" Netheril that isn't as much of a problem as the huge, city-sized enclaves numbered only about a handful and of the other smaller ones, a few "missing" enclaves over the years made them wary of leaving the realm's standard borders.
I've longed to do a history for Netheril. Now that I've finally finished my latest project, I might just sit down and do a Netheril Timeline and see what I can come up with.
The crux of any such historical work is to sort out how the realm governed itself and to detail its interactions with the outside world. My view is that the Netherese weren't "all conquering" and had their butts handed to them on a few occasions. Thoughts for another day ...
-- George Krashos
I like that viewpoint, that their interactions with other societies curbed their expansionist influences. We know it happened when they started spelljamming (which their skyships were probably a vain attempt to try to figuring out how to make a spelljamming helm). I wouldn't be surprised if Jhaamdath didn't possibly seize control of some enclaves (thus possibly the one enclave that had a "thinking" mythallar.... which was possibly some kind of Udoxias/mythallar combination).
However, that being said, I think it would be interesting if some "missing" enclaves actually left the empire out of sheer disrespect and/or to build a new homeland elsewhere. Larloch's Jiksidur being in the bloodstone lands for instance could be an example (though he may have also been simply trading information/goods with the Narfellian empire). I suspect, for instance, that Halruaa was already an established area before the masses suddenly fled there following the fall of their empire. It may very well have been that there wasn't so much "fleeing" to Halruaa as there was Halruaans coming north and rescuing their compatriots. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 14:51:05
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We do know that not all enclaves were in Netheril proper. Sakkors and Nhalloth came down in the Sea of Fallen Stars. There's rumored to be an enclave in Firedrake Bay, in Tethyr. Skullport was originally an enclave, and there was a trio of underwater enclaves in the Sea of Fallen Stars.
That's part of why I've been so willing to run with the idea of an enclave that came down on another continent. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 14:56:24
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You'd be interested to know that in Ed's original Netheril notes that he passed on to TSR and presumably slade, enclaves were just that: areas controlled by wizards featuring a myriad of looks and phenomena (strange plants, weird gravitational effects, time distortion etc etc). They were not all flying cities. The Sargauth enclave in Skullport wasn't a flying city either. Ed's Netheril was multi-faceted; slade's was ... not.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2014 : 18:32:58
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| There's likely a BIG FAT NDA sticker on those notes. I swear one day I'm going to break into Ed and THO's homes and steal their gaming stuffs. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2014 : 20:16:34
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Damn this Netheril project is big.
Thankfully the great thing is anything I change in the history, geography, people etc has absolutely no effect on the rest of the realms because the phaerimm wipe it all out with the desert.
I have the people of Seventon as aggressive would be conquerors (but in disguise). They absorb the gnomes and the Rengarth, but they get a broken nose from the High Forest elves.
This leads to the discovery of the Nether Scrolls by survivors from that conflict that get a bit lost.
Following that I have made one nation of elves a particular enemy of the humans that keeps on reappearing.
Following the creation of enclaves a number of outcasts discover some an ancient temple to Kozah in the boundaries of Arcorar. From there I have another enemy of Seventon who seeks its complete destruction. This Cult of Kozah creates the Ashwind Assassins that is a rather successful organisation of archwizard killers.
The phaerimm actually get involved around -800 DR, attempting to sabotage the mythallars first. When this doesn't work they start the magic drain spells as well as fomenting unrest by granting large amounts of magical support to the anti archwizards society.
And lastly we have the Sarrukh, who plague Seventon with attacks from lizardmen tribes that inhabit the swamps of the basin. They even work to create a swamp (the marsh of deception) because of their links to the cult of Kozah.
Those are the major enemies and should be enough enemies to cause the downfall of Netheril which incidentally is only called Netheril for a few months but the name sticks.
Minor enemies are the various humanoid tribes. Goblins, ogres, orcs, lizardmen, etc. Most of which are manipulated in some fashion by the major enemies of Netheril.
I also altered the orcs a bit. I have a personal theory that orcs were not spread across the realms. They were isolated in the north by the power of the elves for a long time.
By the time of Siluvanede the elves are starting to lose control on the north and the orcs are able to get further south and further east into the Netheril basin. They are slowed in places by the other forests of Faerun but as those forests are cleared the orcs get further and further south and east until they reach their present day reach (obviously the grey orcs appear in the east and move north and west until they meet in the middle in the Moonsea/Vast/Vaasa region).
So I have changed the mentions of orcs in Netheril to only begin with hordes from the north (they do not start out in the Hidden Forest but reach there later).
Need to work on the sites and locations in Netheril now and get individual histories for them worked out. Akintaer I think I will change to be a lizardman only enclave that is a secret from Netheril, or perhaps be a trap to lure people onto the enclave where they disappear after a time as sacrifices to the Sarrukhs gods.
Names are a real problem in Netheril because they are pants (at least from the original sourcebook) and I suck at names. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 13:03:23
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| I like the idea of reducing the actual number of 'cities' to just two dozen or so. There always seemed to be too many IMO, even for a 'golden age' of magic. The idea of many of the others being smaller and more specific in their use is great. Only one I'm not keen on is the Portable Hole idea. I'd go with the enclave being able to turn invisible (or semi-transparant like a Predator alien) or fade in/out of the ethereal or something. But that's just me. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 13:05:21
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| Oh another thing, and I may be wrong here as the 3e rules may have changed this, but would't it being a Portable Hole make it susceptible to simply throwing an open Bag of Holding into it and destroying it with littl effort? Or did 3e nix that concept? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6352 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2014 : 23:44:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I like the idea of reducing the actual number of 'cities' to just two dozen or so. There always seemed to be too many IMO, even for a 'golden age' of magic. The idea of many of the others being smaller and more specific in their use is great. Only one I'm not keen on is the Portable Hole idea. I'd go with the enclave being able to turn invisible (or semi-transparant like a Predator alien) or fade in/out of the ethereal or something. But that's just me.
Yeah, I'm not big on the portable hole idea either. I'd be more inclined that you have an enclave that can phase with the earth (and everything in direct contact gets the same ability). So, you have a flying mountain-top that could literally hide in other mountains OR go into the ground. It makes it less powerful than being ethereal, but still pretty flexible in hiding (and not so easy to find as someone who has a permanent see invisible, etc...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2014 : 02:59:49
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Somebody's a Trek fan methinks.
Imagine if the enclave was merged with a mountain at the time of Netheril's fall. The entire city, corpses and magic items and all, would be fused with the surrounding stone. Imagine exploring a mountain and findinv a vast cavern with an unusual formation in the ceiling and a wall. You'd have to climb/levitate/fly to get to it and then get to see some of it interior. Players don't know what they have until the stumble upon the mythallar room, still intact but nonfunctional. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2014 : 05:31:29
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| Why nonfunctional? While magic stopped working for a moment, I don't think it has ever been established (and the other surviving mythallars sort of prove) that mythallars would have resumed working after the fall, had they somehow managed to survive the actual falling :P. Seems to me everything would be working just fine that was inside a cavern... |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2014 : 12:17:24
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I thought those surviving mythallars were anomolies though? I can't recall reading this per se but I got the strong impression that the newly-arisen Mystra turned them off. If any of them survived (undamaged that is) and thus remained functional then I imagine the elves would destroy any they could find and the phaerimm would have drained them (as in fed off of them).
It does raise an interesting adventure hook though... |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Netheril
