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Phylactery
Acolyte
3 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 10:09:17
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First time poster here. I would like to hear you folks' thoughts on Dragon-oriented lore and what it would be like to actually play a dragon in Forgotten Realms.
So I've got two players who are very experienced, we've run lots of games in the Realms and were looking for a change. I had an idea and threw actually playing Dragons out there. They agreed to play them by the Monster stats themselves, and are starting out with the stats of Young Adult Gold Dragons in Pathfinder. (We had to settle for Pathfinder because there just aren't enough 5th Ed. books out yet to cover all the different sorts of systems we may wind up needing).
I've been thumbing through my old copy of Dragons of Faerun which I never really read cover to cover even in 3.5, and I was just curious what kind of story options are available, and what kind of lives dragons lead in Faerun. Really just looking for things you folks think I should look into. So for instance, the game mechanically will be built around whatever they choose to get into - there will be kingdoms they can pillage or infiltrate, help or hinder (or consume) though I'm pretty sure they plan on playing them more good than not. I know that I want to establish some particular storytelling hooks I like, things like Immortal Enemies (for immortal players) so that they may bump into someone they hate and thought they'd killed 400 years later in an elven court on the other side of the world and get that delicious 'wtf' moment, that kind of thing. Beyond that I was thinking we'd track resources as they accrue them, deal with 'heroes' (or villains) who choose to attack them, major organizations (The Harpers, Bane's people, etc) who jockey to get them to join, or at least help, (or to enslave them?) so on and so forth. I was particularly looking to run a Bane-centric game (Bane antagonist) which could conceivably wind up (based on their failure or success) landing them in a freaky ass half modernized Realms taken over completely by Bane, all priests are Banites, all magic outlawed except to his chosen, most magical beings either enslaved or exterminated, etc. It sounds really weird but the vision I have for it is amazing, and getting there is optional to begin with. But meantime I would love some tips for you guys on historical periods and events to focus on for Dragon PCs, and beyond that, how you think Dragons interact with Mortals' panthaeon of gods (yes, I know they have their own, no I won't neglect Bahamut or Tiamat, but yes I want the more 'common' Realms gods to play a big part in the campaign).
Love to hear your thoughts, thanks for reading as it's a long one!
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2015 : 19:32:23
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| Oooh...this sounds fun. I gotta go, but I will try and get back to throw some ideas your way. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 02:14:54
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| That brings me back to the 90s when Council of Wyrms was released. It looks like someone is selling the 2nd supplement campaign book on ebay for about $9, which is the part of the old box set that had prepared adventures, but if I recall correctly it was very setting specific. The Forgotten Realms equivalent would be in the past during the Time of Dragons when they were the primary power of the Realms before the Dracorage destroyed their reign. The mechanics are 2nd Ed, but the ideas might be worth a look. Anyone have any links to that old material for Phylactery? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 08:02:04
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OK so right away as a DM I wonder if the players will want to creat their own lairs with traps and treasure. What an interesting twist to have the DM run NPC adventurers through a PC dragon's lair!
Next comes interacting with other dragons. The Wyrms of the North archive over on the WotC website should help here: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/wn
Being dragons, the PCs may fall prey to all sorts of powers and power groups looking to slay or control them. Powerful mages like Manshoon will try to send adventurers to slay dragons in their lairs, the idea being the adventurers will die, but not before they weaken the dragon, and then Manshoon appears and finishes the dragon off.
Will you be allowing the PCs to shape change into human form?
Edit: your campaign might revolve around the search for legendary dragon lairs, like that of Thauglor the Purple Dragon in Cormyr.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 26 Feb 2015 08:04:25 |
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Phylactery
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 09:22:13
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Oh I like that, Jeremy, thank you. Those Wyrms of the North Articles will be put to good use.
Yes, polymorphing into humanoids and exploring/exploiting/plotting in/helping various kingdoms according to their whims is one of the primary things I want to facilitate (and was also their first inclination upon being proposed this game). As for building their own lairs and setting them up, that's already on the list as well, and yeah regardless of if they play tyrants or benefactors to whatever lands they inhabit, there will be some group of level 15+ assholes wanting what they've got (or wanting them, or wanting to off them on principle). I don't plan on making the campaign center around any particular legendary dragon. Think of a vampire game/story (or Highlander). What makes those stories great? You have this dwindling pool of immortals, some of whom are centuries, even millenia old, with experiences and knowledge most of their kind can't even imagine - things which are unfathomable to the age in which they live for common people. Beyond that there's all these allegiances and grudges flying around. This guy may be cool with you, but his mentor was an enemy of your mentor, so your relationship is contentious; meanwhile what may have started as a slight social miscalculation (perhaps even stemming from your ignorance) when you first met with one rival may have matured, over the centuries, into a blood feud with dead consorts/mates/offspring on both sides. What I'm saying is, I don't want to 'focus' the campaign on any particular ancient dragon. Rather I want to focus the game on the long term lifespans, goals, and accrued resources and knowledge of the Draconic Experience. At first the players will be young dragons, staking out a claim amid other cocky young dragons while hearing legends of ancient forbears (and perhaps warnings too, either to the capriciousness or limits of their patience, or their genuine malevolent natures as the case may be). They may seek these ancient ones for power, wisdom, help, or may in turn be sought by mortals or younger dragons for the same. Likewise they will influence the course of nations. Like I said in my first plot, I have a metaplot in mind revolving around a Banite xanatos gambit that could end with the Realms getting completely ****ed and Dragons getting forced into deep sleep (like the Dracorage mythal, but something more along the lines of a magical coma) for centuries. If that ends up being successful, the campaign will shift into something almost similar to a World of Darkness Game, where the dragons have to stay polymorphed to be 'below the radar' as SS-like Banite specialty troops are on the lookout for magical beings, particularly the most powerful of them. The option invariably becomes join or die, obviously; or potentially just die if I decide this dystopic version of the Realms has Bane just stamping out anything not-him (it would be very Bane to suffocate magic and allow Clerics with spells directly checked off by him to be the only power getting flung around).
That's all theoretical (the endgame is a WIP and also contingent on player choices, so all of this may change, or never happen). What I'm wondering now is a good place to start them. One is Red and one is Bronze, so we have a fun play on Chromatic vs. Metallic, though needless to say we aren't playing straight by "all chromatics are mindless evil monsters and all metallics are higher but have a choice" model. They're both intelligent superbeings and I'm just playing it that way instead of worrying about shoehorned alignments. This whole game is a bit more fast and loose than I normally do and frankly I think the fiction is always more lenient on Realms Dragon alignments than anything in the RPG mechanics, so I'm sticking to that model.
So where to start them? I'm thinking they're young dragons trying to make a name for themselves in the period of time after the last great Dracorage (according to DoF book). If I understand correctly, it seems the Dracorage mythal eventually gets dispelled around 1350 DR? Is this right? Correct me if I misread. I wouldn't mind starting play AFTER the dracorage mythal has been dispelled. I like the idea of having a period of the old ones going "Gosh yeah just be glad you weren't old enough to remember the King-Killer Star." Then maybe set up a plotline where yet another crazy asshole is trying to prematurely set off a Rage of Dragons (with or without the star). It seems a little cliche to me but my guys despite knowing lots about dragons in D+D know next to nothing about Faerun specific lore for dragons. Any other suggestions on when to start and possibly where? I'm thinking the west coast/western heartlands area, like Dalelands, Moonsea, Amn, that area-ish but if any of you have better ideas I'd be open. Where does a dragon go to stake out new territory when they are young? Where do they come from, in fact? Like were both these guys hatched somewhere on the mainland or is there a secret "Dragon Island" in Faerun like in some other D+D settings? I guess what I need to know most is how Dragon adolescence works. I liked the idea of them being somehow "outcast" from dragon society (as did they) initially, either by virtue of being young and 'forced' to stake out territory on their own, or by way of making some mistake and being punished for it. Any suggestions on this could help (the players really liked the idea of being 'forced' out for some reason too - normal or negative, either is fine).
Again with the long post but I figured some clarification and specific request was in order - thanks so far to all willing to participate! |
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SaMoCon
Senior Scribe
USA
403 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2015 : 11:05:34
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<OLD INFO DELETED>
6 Nightal, 1373 DR: Year of Rogue Dragons. The last canon rage. The Dracorage Mythal seems to have been destroyed in that official event. That being said, it's your game and if you want the mythal destroyed earlier or as a hovering object of doom to be manipulated by your Banites in the near future is up to you.
Being outcasts in dragon society... I'm drawing a blank on dragon society. I'm claiming ignorance on this because the point of the Dracorage curse was to prevent the dragons from forming a society and ever again challenging elvish rule. On top of that I am just not finding anything related to the Forgotten Realms regarding dragons forming a society beyond occasional grouping by a few individual dragons almost exclusively of a single color.
Now, having a bad reputation among dragons that know about them could be easier to explain since dragons do interact with intelligent creatures with the caveat that not all of those intelligent creatures survive the encounter. What magical divination does not reveal rumors and information mongering fills in. Dragons may be territorial and are guardedly indifferent to hostile towards others of their kind but that doesn't mean they don't want to know about them. Young dragons of differing colors working together are sure to peak the interest and paranoia of nearby dragons.
I would also ask for what purpose the characters would have a lair? The same question goes for why have a horde? Staying in one place invites discovery and attack. Gathering a mound of valuables tethers one down in needing to protect it. I know in 2nd Ed's Council of Wyrms there was a very real reason to have a lair and a horde - the dragon PC's ability to "level" in age categories and all the powers were tied to the quantity, quality, and value of the horde (ergo, any of it gets stolen and the dragon loses power commensurate to the loss in the horde requiring those exact pieces to be returned to restore the lost power). Unless there's something in Dragons of Faerun or Draconomicon to say otherwise, I don't think those limits are in place unless you are planning to impose such of your own devising.
You might want to think about the covert/secret identity approach to the game. The dragons are like superman - immensely powerful but disguised to pass as just another ordinary human. The possibilities open up for a potential hide-and-seek between a powerful organization and the PCs as one needs to identify and mobilize sufficient forces against the PCs while the PCs need to shake their pursuers and slip any trap set to catch them. Conversely, either side using their powers and true forms openly are like giant beacons signalling to all which way they are going and each indiscretion allows other powers to learn more about their capabilities and limitations. The PCs may endanger themselves with public displays but so to the Banites or other organizations interested in them.
So, have you decided on having the PCs already well-versed in humanoid culture and attitudes or have you decided on a fish-out-of-water approach to the PCs and/or players by giving them bizarre and jarringly foreign descriptions of the interactions and customs of the people they come across? It seems you want to start the players in a populated and firmly civilized area. Is contact with humanoids going to be a banal/trite experience to your play or something to be treated as exotic and fraught with danger? |
Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for. |
Edited by - SaMoCon on 27 Feb 2015 19:33:31 |
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hobbitfan
Learned Scribe
USA
164 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2015 : 20:02:27
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Alot of good ideas tin this thread. I especially like the "reverse dungeon" style idea of the Dragons fighting off adventurer's invading their lairs.
I also liked the idea of working in the different persoective of a long-lived being like the dragon. Dragons would probably be used to seeing threats different level than say humans.
What do Dragons think of the Cult of the Dragon? Interesting to them or an abomination?
I definately think you can get inspiration from Council of Worms and the Hobbit too!
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Phylactery
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 12:55:36
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quote:
6 Nightal, 1373 DR: Year of Rogue Dragons. The last canon rage. The Dracorage Mythal seems to have been destroyed in that official event.
Yeah I've pretty much decided (unless one of you throws out a better/more interesting date) to set it around 1118 DR. This is 100 years (their general age as young adult dragons) after the last true Dracorage (1018 DR). The idea here is to make it this specter in the past and looming on the horizon which they hear about only in terrified accounts from other dragons or mortal history. That'll make it double fun when the king-killer star shows up or someone starts trying to cause an artificial one.
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Being outcasts in dragon society... I'm drawing a blank on dragon society.
You draw blanks fairly - apparently from what reading I've been able to do it's because there isn't much of one since the dracorage mythal was woven. Soo, yeah, I'm just gonna have to let them decide their personal family histories, which is fine.
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I would also ask for what purpose the characters would have a lair?
Well that is up to them; they may not even choose to make one. Aside from if there were mechanical reasons to, they've already indicated they'd like to do lairs. Personally if it were me (and I'm not putting it beyond them) I'd have a few dozen lairs by the end of the game, some completely hidden, others ostentatiously overt. Generally though they need a place to hide their money, unless they choose to bank through mortal aliases (polymorphed) or proxies (servants) and actually keep their coin in mortal institutions, though even if I were heavily invested in the economy of a city I wouldn't do that as a dragon. Banks can go bankrupt, dragons usually don't.
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You might want to think about the covert/secret identity approach to the game.
This is going to be a big part of the game, both by my design and the players' request. Aside from getting big and bad and staking out territory, there's going to be a lot of scheming and political interplay. The players will get involved in mortal politics, one way or another, if by way of no other reason than that they cannot avoid them. They also specifically plan to integrate into human society and make identities for themselves among mortals. Here again is why I cited things like Highlander and Vampire: the Masquerade: because I want the themes of immortal life to intersect with the fantasy genre. Ancient enemies and allies, grudges from a millennium ago, loves and spawn lost or gained again, and of course the delicate balance between mortal identity and the amazing supernatural powers of the immortals. This ties into money and such too - the lairs you were asking about. The idea is with so much time on their hands, after a while pissing on their territory and wrecking anything that invades it is going to be both too easy and too mundane to interest them. I already know (and they've already indicated) they'd want to try integrating, and I'm sure it'll play out very interestingly. What's going to be even more fascinating is knowing that there are other dragons sneaking around - or mortal races bent on sniffing one out (and presumably killing it). I wonder how they might detect each other? It's interesting because in polymorphed form dragons have very few of their powers.
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So, have you decided on having the PCs already well-versed in humanoid culture and attitudes or have you decided on a fish-out-of-water approach to the PCs and/or players by giving them bizarre and jarringly foreign descriptions of the interactions and customs of the people they come across?
They will probably already have had a fair amount of interaction with humanoid races. Basically, I don't see them as having made it 100 years without having polymorphed and interacted a lot by now, if they have any interest in mortal races (which both characters do).
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It seems you want to start the players in a populated and firmly civilized area.
Yes, I was thinking somewhere in that sweet spot triangle that Luskan, Neverwinter, Waterdeep, and Silverymoon make. That's generally my go to in the Realms if I'm not sure where I want it set. I mean seriously, it's like the most interesting part of the world, and connects to all the other most interesting parts. I know places like Calimshan and Thay are more 'unique' but part of the charm of the Northwest section of Faerun is how quintessentially 'western fantasy' it is. They will go those other places to be sure, it's just a nice spot to start.
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Is contact with humanoids going to be a banal/trite experience to your play or something to be treated as exotic and fraught with danger?
I hope to make interaction with mortals/humans a study in risk and reward. Basically, human society is going to have interested parties (Harpers, Scaly Way, Bainites, etc) who would want to recruit or force these guys to help them if they found out they could contact them when not in their omnicidal forms. Then there will probably be factions of any city who'd want dragons dead on principal, so they couldn't just come out and say what they were about - frankly even if they did think they could manage it, they may hit a wall when a much older, much more heavily invested immortal (likely also a dragon, but possibly an archmage or lich) who could actually handle them told them to piss off. Then beyond that there's what role to take on in mortal society if you are going to infiltrate it? A good example: my first session is going to revolve around a rogue dragon (possibly black, maybe red or green) who has taken up in an old, abandoned dwarven stronghold. The local dwarven clans have considered holding a dragonmoot to hunt him, and meanwhile a few human cities are putting out the call to heroes. The players can play it any way they want, I don't care, but that first session will give me an idea of how they approach things. They could approach the dragon and offer an alliance, or tell him to screw off. They could also pose as mortals in the kingdom, take up the commission to kill the dragon, kill him in dragon form, then go back in humanoid form and get a substantial reward and potentially status. Maybe even nobility of the local government/kingdom? Of course if they never even polymorph into the human city, they won't even realize that there is a reward for the dragon. After he's done, they could make the old dwarven fortress their first true lair (I'm starting it off as them both getting kind of booted from their parents' territory, if they are even alive; possibly playing it as them both getting attacked by small armies of soldiers responding to the dragon they're fighting, kind of a scaly crusade, etc.) Anyway, long story short (too late) they're going to have as many options as they have creative ideas.
Hope that answers all your questions! Sorry I didn't respond for about a week, been a busy one.
Things you guys could help me with now:
As much as I like 5th so far, I need the filled out supplements of Pathfinder for a game this 'big.' Therefore, what I'd really love from you all is a link or pointing in the direction of canon D&D (and forgotten realms specific) creatures statted in Pathfinder. Like, the Draconomicon is really cool - but all those special demi-dragons and gem dragons and weird things I'd like to include? They're statted in 3.x and not in Pathfinder. I know I could convert pretty easily, but to be honest I'm not familiar enough with the older material to feel confident doing that. If you guys have recommendations for stat conversion from 3.x, I'd take that as a decent silver medal to the Pathfinder stats.
Also, does anyone know any methods by which two dragons (not in draconic form) might detect each other? Could they detect one another by scent or something like it while polymorphed into human/humanoid form? Or would it require simply shadowing and watching them? Anyone know the answer to this? It's weird I know.
I'd also really enjoy any other thoughts and recommendations you've all got, or parts of the Pathfinder SRD you think I'd benefit from reading. Any concepts for antagonists or anything? Any ideas for rival dragons? Magic Users? Martial warriors? Mortal kingdoms to put them near? Oh a fun bit of trivia I'm toying with right now: The dwarven fortress their new rival has settled in (and which they may soon own) was not wiped out by the dragon. What killed them all? Will be a fun mystery for later when weird things start happening in their Lairs and I'm taking suggestions haha. Thoughts? Thanks again to all who post on this! |
Edited by - Phylactery on 09 Mar 2015 13:06:35 |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2015 : 13:35:41
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| Playing any type of powerful creature requires some degree of skill from the players and DM to keep things from getting boring quickly. Back in the day my friend and I played as a lich and greater mummy who were working together to destroy a civilization over the course of a few centuries. Man those were some good times! |
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Running A Dragons Game in Faerun
