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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Feb 2015 : 02:19:13
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Wow, many posts have appeared since I last posted.
@Aldrick and Irennan: I agree with some things both of you have said. I too think there should be a balance. I want the deities to be characters in the sense that they are living, breathing entities. They can still be mysterious and be accessible, as Irennan pointed out. I'm not proposing a deity come and join their followers for afternoon tea, but I think communication is important. If it's through dreams and visions, that's fine, though I can see deitites occassionally making brief appearances to their faithful (depending on the deity). There would still be mystery to them, for they would awe (and in some cases terrify) their followers. I understand the desire for things to be about the mortals, but then we run the risk of the deities being --too-- distant. The deities of the Realms are naturally more active than they are in other settings. If Ao or someone changes the form that activity takes (dreams and visions, and no more avatars running around), then okay. It's better than nothing. But I too think the deities should have personalities and goals. If they didn't they wouldn't have ideologies, and people would have little reason to follow them. If they were too static and distant, then they wouldn't get the following they have, and there also wouldn't be those heresies people are talking about because Faerunians wouldn't care. If Selune and Sehanine were simply distant overwatchers of the moon, then elves and humans wouldn't have that divide. But in spite of their similiarties, both goddesses have somewhat different personalities and portfolios, and that would allow for the controversy (though personally I like them being separate entities).
Along those lines, I like the idea of racial deities. Not only are some not from Toril, as Wooly mentioned, but different races have different values and ways of looking at the world. The Seldarine for example are very elven-specific, however I don't think they would turn away a follower from another race. The drow pantheon (when there was one) was also very racial specific. Even with Eilistraee, she wanted to lead the drow to the light, because they needed it, though she probably wouldn't be adverse to a follower from a different race, either.
Some deities, like Mielikki and Mystra, are cross-racial, if you will, and attract more followers from other races. Having racial deities adds variety to the Realms, and gives followers and players more options. Corellon is the elven god of war, but he represents other things, as well, not just war. He and Tempus are very different deities. Followers of Corellon don't preach dying in battle or the glory of the warrior (and elves have seen a lot of war, many of them civil). Corellon is also the god of elven art and magic, and he is seen as the Protector of the Race. Tempus is not just "rawr, battle, rawr!" either, but he is very different from Corellon. I can't see many warrior elves turning to Tempus. The Selune/Sehanine and Hanali/Sune crossing makes more sense, but even there, I like the idea of them being separate entities, and even if they are cultural deities, there are certain cultural deities that would be difficult to cross-over. Some deities, as I mentioned, are very racial specific. This is not to say it's impossible for, say, an elf to worship Tempus, but it is unlikely. Some deities don't do cross-culture very well. Others, such as Mielikki, who while included in the "human pantheon", isn't really racial specific. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2015 : 04:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
That is what religious syncretism is all about, though. (And this is why the 'Selune Moonbow' heresy makes sense in Silverymoon.) Take the deity Serapis, as an example. A number of different deities were all fused together to create Serapis: the Egyptian Gods of Osiris and Apis the Bull and the Greek Gods of Zeus, Helios, Dionysos, Hades and Aesculapius. He was seen as the deity of the sun, rulership, nature, healing, death, and the afterlife.
The real world is not the Realms. The Egyptian and Greek gods couldn't personally drop in and weigh in on the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I am using Serapis as a clear real world example where things like this happened in polytheistic cultures. We also know that similar things have happened canonically, throughout the history of the Realms--at least among the human deities.
Yes, among the human deities. Because it's easier for members of one race to blend in with and mix with other members of that race. No matter where they originate from, if you put a bunch of humans in the same place for a long time, they're going to end up acting pretty much the same, because they are physically identical peoples in the same environment.
But if you put elves and humans in the same place for a long time, you may, after several generations, end up with humans who have adopted some elven values -- but you're still going to have the original crop of elves. Even if you wait 2000 years, the elves are still going to have cultural differences because they are physically different from the humans and have a different lifespan.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
If this happens among the various human deities of different cultures, why would it be any different for racial deities--which you stated should also be viewed as cultural deities?
Because, as I said, different races in fantasy worlds are entirely separate species, with different physical traits -- and in many cases, those physical traits will shape their culture.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
That is sort of what I am getting at. I am somewhere between where you stand and where MrHedgehog stands. I agree with you that the racial deities should be seen as cultural deities. However, I also believe that they should be treated like cultural deities--not given some special significance.
If all of the races were the same, I'd agree. But they are not, and their physical differences are a very large part of their cultural identity.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Take Corellon for example. He is the Elven God of War. The faith of Tempus is very active in the Silver Marches, where the faith of Corellon is also very active. Why are they not in conflict? We know what the faithful of Tempus did with the faithful of Garagos, and we know what the faithful of Tempus were planning to do with the faithful of Anhur. Why would he treat Corellon any differently? Why would the faithful of Tempus not grow offended that the local Elves pray to Corellon before going into battle instead of Tempus?
I work in IT. The help desk for my company is co-located with another help desk, that supports a client of the company.
That client recently had a virus outbreak on their network. It has caused a lot of issues for them. But it has not impacted my company at all -- the client runs their own network, and we don't touch it. We don't have any connection to their network -- even though their help desk computers and ours are in the same room, as far as our network is concerned, those other computers don't exist.
What happens on the client network is the client's responsibility.
Tempus's network consists of human users. Corellon's network consists of elven users. Unless the elves and the humans connect their two networks together, Corellon's network is not touching Tempus's network at all, and something happening on one is not going to touch the other.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Why would the Elves not adopt some of the human deities that do not have any analogous counterparts in their pantheon, such as Tymora, Ilmater, Lurue, and Waukeen? What about some evil human deities, since the Elven Pantheon lacks those: Cyric, Talos, Malar, Talona, and particularly Auril--considering where the Silver Marches is located.
Ah, now that's a different story. Where there are identical deities, there is no reason to switch from the one you were raised with. However, when there is an open slot, then there is nothing to keep you from switching.
However... A pantheon is a reflection of its culture. Why are there no evil elven deities? Because their culture is predominantly good. There isn't a need for an evil elf deity because there are not enough evil elves to make that viable.
It's the same reason Auril isn't worshipped in Calimshan. A people untouched by snow and ice have no reason to pay attention to a deity covering snow and ice.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Even if you make the argument against religious syncretism in the Realms, Ed has been very clear that everyone knows the deities are real. The Elves living in Silverymoon would not doubt the power or existence of the aforementioned deities. Why would they not offer regular prayers to them alongside humans?
I'm not saying they wouldn't. I'm saying that if an elf wants to worship the deity of the moon, unless he was raised by humans or had some personal beef against Sehanine, she's the one he's going to turn to. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2015 : 05:57:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The real world is not the Realms. The Egyptian and Greek gods couldn't personally drop in and weigh in on the matter.
The point I was trying to make is that identical things have happened in the Realms, and this has always been the case. Real world deities obviously could not drop in and weigh in on the matter, but it's pretty clear that neither do the Realms deities. After all, that is how we end up with heresies and schisms within the faith. A deity could just drop in and fix all of that, but chooses not to for whatever reason.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yes, among the human deities. Because it's easier for members of one race to blend in with and mix with other members of that race. No matter where they originate from, if you put a bunch of humans in the same place for a long time, they're going to end up acting pretty much the same, because they are physically identical peoples in the same environment.
But if you put elves and humans in the same place for a long time, you may, after several generations, end up with humans who have adopted some elven values -- but you're still going to have the original crop of elves. Even if you wait 2000 years, the elves are still going to have cultural differences because they are physically different from the humans and have a different lifespan.
...
Because, as I said, different races in fantasy worlds are entirely separate species, with different physical traits -- and in many cases, those physical traits will shape their culture.
Elves and Humans are not so alien to one another as to not adopt similar cultural values and practices while living together. You are right that Elves long lives mean that the original Elves will cling much more to their traditional culture. We see this in real world humans all the time when it comes to immigrants.
However, the issue is not the original immigrants / settlers. It is their children and grandchildren. In the real world three generations is all that it really takes for people to lose any real connection to their native culture, and instead embrace the local culture in which they were raised. So an Elf who migrates from Myth Drannor to settle in Silverymoon, would see themselves as an immigrant living in a human city. Her daughter will see herself as part of an immigrant family living in Silverymoon. The grand daughter of the original Elf would see herself as a citizen of Silverymoon. Seeing yourself as a "citizen of Silverymoon" means that you are mentally lumping yourself in with its people, you are seeing yourself as part of a culture that includes humans. You likely have known numerous humans and their families, and even consider many humans close and intimate friends. These would not be distant strangers, they would be part of your life, and as a consequence you would know a great deal about their religion.
I am not arguing that human culture would dominate Elven culture. I am saying we would see a cross cultural exchange, in which both cultures start to intermix.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Tempus's network consists of human users. Corellon's network consists of elven users. Unless the elves and the humans connect their two networks together, Corellon's network is not touching Tempus's network at all, and something happening on one is not going to touch the other.
Exactly. This is how it would normally work. The networks "connect together" when Elves and Humans start living together. If the Elves are living in Evereska and Evermeet, where humans are extremely rare, then Corellon's "network" is fully independent. Just as the Mulhorandi and Maztican Pantheons are fully independent until Faerunian's "connect" to them culturally.
Tempus had zero problem with Anhur doing his thing off in Mulhorand. I believe they were even allies. However, once Unther fell, and it became clear that Tempus and Anhur's faithful were going to begin bumping into each other--it was clearly stated in canon that there would be open war between the two faiths.
Why would we assume that the faithful of Tempus would react any differently when confronted with Corellon's faithful? Everything would be fine if Corellon ditched his war portfolio. What happens if some humans start praying alongside the Elves to Corellon before a battle? There is no reason that the Elves would deny the humans this, and there is no reason that I can think of that Corellon would even refuse human priests should they wish to serve him.
This is a problem caused by Ao's decree that there can only be one deity higher than demigod with the same portfolio. The spheres of worshipers cross or "connect" once they start to mingle together culturally.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ah, now that's a different story. Where there are identical deities, there is no reason to switch from the one you were raised with. However, when there is an open slot, then there is nothing to keep you from switching.
However... A pantheon is a reflection of its culture. Why are there no evil elven deities? Because their culture is predominantly good. There isn't a need for an evil elf deity because there are not enough evil elves to make that viable.
It's the same reason Auril isn't worshipped in Calimshan. A people untouched by snow and ice have no reason to pay attention to a deity covering snow and ice.
Are you making the argument that the Elves are (by their biology) primarily good? I think Elven history -- both ancient and recent -- proves otherwise.
I don't disagree that the Elven Deities constantly try and nudge their faithful toward good aims and deeds, but the Elves--like humans--constantly fall short. There are certainly numerous evil Elves out there. An equal percentage to that of humans? Probably not, largely due to the influence of their deities (rather than biology), but once they start mingling with humans that can easily change. Their deities no longer have exclusive influence over them.
I do not disagree with your Auril and Calimshan example. That is the reason Elves do not have a deity similar to Auril in their pantheon as well, because they do not tend to live in places that are that cold and covered in snow. The Silver Marches is very different from where Elves usually live, and therefore it makes sense that they would begin offering prayers to Auril. Over time, some of them might even become priests of Auril. That's my point.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not saying they wouldn't. I'm saying that if an elf wants to worship the deity of the moon, unless he was raised by humans or had some personal beef against Sehanine, she's the one he's going to turn to.
What about humans--this is a two way street. Do you think they would offer prayers to Sehanine? On the other hand, why can't Elves and Humans both offer prayers to both deities? Ao may have created the rule regarding portfolios, but mortals in the Realms don't know that. Why can't they worship both at the same time, and simply believe that both of them are Goddesses of the Moon?
Some Elves seem to have no trouble worshiping Mystra as a Goddess of Magic, despite Corellon also being the Elven God of Magic. Why can't it be the same among the faithful of Selune and Sehanine? Why can't mortals just assume that there can be more than one deity of magic and the moon? Or why can't the faithful of Sehanine just assume that Selune is really Sehanine, but Selune is the face she decided to show humans? ...and the reverse, why can't the faithful of Selune believe that Sehanine is really Selune, but Sehanine is the face that she decided to show Elves? This is not heresy, but it obviously gets us very close to what happens in canon. All you need is an event like the Spellplague, for Sehanine to go silent, and... well... we get what we got. Full on heresy.
The 'Selune Moonbow' heresy happened in canon. There needs to be an explanation. Do you have a better one?
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Some deities, like Mielikki and Mystra, are cross-racial, if you will, and attract more followers from other races. Having racial deities adds variety to the Realms, and gives followers and players more options. Corellon is the elven god of war, but he represents other things, as well, not just war. He and Tempus are very different deities. Followers of Corellon don't preach dying in battle or the glory of the warrior (and elves have seen a lot of war, many of them civil). Corellon is also the god of elven art and magic, and he is seen as the Protector of the Race. Tempus is not just "rawr, battle, rawr!" either, but he is very different from Corellon. I can't see many warrior elves turning to Tempus. The Selune/Sehanine and Hanali/Sune crossing makes more sense, but even there, I like the idea of them being separate entities, and even if they are cultural deities, there are certain cultural deities that would be difficult to cross-over. Some deities, as I mentioned, are very racial specific. This is not to say it's impossible for, say, an elf to worship Tempus, but it is unlikely. Some deities don't do cross-culture very well. Others, such as Mielikki, who while included in the "human pantheon", isn't really racial specific.
The point, as I was making to Wooly, is not that Elves would drop Corellon and turn to Tempus. But rather the faithful of Tempus and Corellon would be drawn into conflict. There is no reason to believe that it wouldn't happen, as this is how the faithful of Tempus has acted every time they have come into direct contact with the faithful of another deity of war.
I am saying that we could see shrines to Corellon desecrated by the faithful of Tempus and their clerics hunted. They obviously would not be allowed to war openly inside Silverymoon itself, but outside its walls the faithful of Corellon would be fair game.
The issue at hand is not so much that Elves would drop Corellon to worship Tempus, but rather that Humans are likely to take up the worship of Corellon. There is no reason that if Elves and Humans are living side by side that some humans would not take up the worship of Corellon--even becoming priests themselves. This has some real and direct consequences.
I am not anti-Racial Pantheons. I just think they should be treated like the human cultural pantheons, that is all. There should be one set of rules to govern them all, not special exemptions. It is just begging for religious and political trouble once these various cultures start shacking up together. That's not a bad thing in my opinion, though, as it adds conflict, drama, and depth to the setting. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2015 : 15:12:17
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I absolutely do not want racial deities to come back. Why would race matter to a divine being? If, for example, Berronar exists in the realms she should be a goddess of marriage universally not just to a certain species of being. Deities being specific to a race is a bad idea that I am glad was done away with.
Possibly because the race was created by the master of a given group of deities, who may be "related" to one another either metaphorically or realistically. I don't have problems with racial pantheons. My only problem is when we have racial deities over THINGS (i.e. god of sun, god of moon) rather than concepts, because then it becomes "well, which deity actually controls the moon?". Marriage, war, hate, justice, loyalty, nature, agriculture, storms, water, tyranny, illusion, psionics, enchantment magic, divinations, dreams, fire, cold, archery, hunting, blacksmithing, knowledge, art, song, etc.... all of these are things that multiple deities can be deities of without having to have absolute control over, so I could see there being an individual deity of war for the elves, dwarves, halflings, humans..... in fact, I could see multiple deities espousing war in its different aspects in some of these pantheons, . |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2015 : 18:49:25
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Personally, I think having racial and cultural deities is essential for a large number of reasons:
It provides additional richness, depth and complexity to the divine "choices" available to players and DMs. Why use Shar for the 899th time in your campaign when you could use Gruumsh or Tiamat, and tie in those deities very specific, unique motivations to your story?
It promotes diversity in racial concepts. What makes a warrior in Calimshan different from a dwarf or elf warrior? Mechanically, not much. But in terms of story, an elf might be far more motivated by protection of culture and family, and prone to "master" really elegant arts of swordcraft with a very specific outlook and philosophy versus a human warrior of Calimshan. The latter might be more concerned about personal honor, glory, and doing whatever gets the job done in terms of victorious combat.
It promotes cultural diversity. Humans are humans, but culture is kind of a big deal. What do the Norse gods view as values, goals, and a good life versus the Aztec gods? Some things may be similar, others not so much. Then consider the differences between an orc and a halfling. Their gods are entirely differnt, though there are some basic similarities like survival.
It allows for culture conflicts and clashes, or unexpected times of working together. Bane and Bhaal might work together frequently, but how would Bane feel about working with Falazure or Ghaunadaur? Where it might not make sense to have two gods within the same pantheon fight against each other (or work together), a human deity might indeed fight against a deity from another race's pantheon (or work with them, so long as both their goals are met).
It's a fallacy in RPG settings that one deity should be the only one with influence or control over a portfolio or divine domain. A single world pantheon might make things somewhat simpler, but there's absolutely no harm whatsoever in having three or four different racial or cultural deities of war, or magic, or pottery-making. Unless your PCs are gods themselves, how or why would they ever need to know how portfolios work, why they can or can't be shared, or why overlap can happen?
Personally, I really dislike this prevailing idea that Gruumsh is Talos, Lathander is Amaunator, where different gods are really just avatars drawing on some kind of primary "source pantheon" representing portfolios. Anthropomorphized living deities with personalities and unique histories are cool. Thor isn't some "avatar" of a Platonian Ideal Concept of a warrior. Thor is THOR. And when Thor fights against giant-kin or svart-alfs, he's pretty much doing that on some higher plane.
I'm fine with the idea of various gods dying when cultures clash, or melding into new, mixed pantheons where they change slightly over time. I'm fine with one deity absorbing the relative power of a deity when they kill another deity. But I'm NOT okay with deities merging personalities when doing so, or having mortal beliefs dramatically alter a deity due to heresies. Deities should address heresies, they should (infrequently) contact their faithful directly. They should appear (very rarely) when they need to (because didn't everyone love Hercules/Xena episodes when this happened?). But it shouldn't be gods hanging out in bars as serving wenches or showing up every night for dinner. Use them sparingly, not as NPCs or DMPCs.
Ultimately. why play any RPG if you're not in it for the story? Racial and cultural gods add massive diversity and choices - don't implement them if you want a simpler story, but don't take those options away from those who do.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
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Edited by - Eltheron on 21 Feb 2015 19:10:26 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2015 : 23:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
It's a fallacy in RPG settings that one deity should be the only one with influence or control over a portfolio or divine domain. A single world pantheon might make things somewhat simpler, but there's absolutely no harm whatsoever in having three or four different racial or cultural deities of war, or magic, or pottery-making. Unless your PCs are gods themselves, how or why would they ever need to know how portfolios work, why they can or can't be shared, or why overlap can happen?
The problem is that it is not a fallacy. It is a straight up decree by Ao himself. It is canon.
quote:
Faiths and Avatars, pg. 4:
When Abeir-Toril was young, the human deities of the Realms were not so formal about their spheres of influence because their worshipers were not so crowded together on the sphere of Toril as to likely ever encounter one another. For a long time, a human pantheon would simply stake out a claim on a continent or large geographic area uncontested. Entire human pantheons or subsets of pantheons from other crystal spheres found homes on the continents of Toril in this way. They did not worry about other human pantheons with deities who claimed similar portfolios living a whole continent away.
Eventually, though, pantheons started to see intermixture between their worshipers as various groups wandered across the face of Toril, and they began to worry about how to deal with the threat to their power base that such immigrations caused. As a solution to this, they agreed on the formation of the spheres of influence discussed above. Within these spheres of influence, while more than one deity may have similar portfolios, no more than one of such parallel powers can ascend in deific stature to a higher rank than demipower.
If a wave of transpheric immigration occurred (most often brought on by a gate opening), the mortals who emigrated to the Realms continued worshiping their old deities. If the Realms sphere of influence those people immigrated to already had powers who possessed the same portfolios as the immigrants’ old powers, one of two things would normally happen: either the worship of the immigrants would go to the already-established Realms powers or the immigrant powers would cross to the new crystal sphere and battle with the old Realms’ deities for control of the contested portfolio. In the first case, the power now receiving new worship would eventually inform his or her new clergy and worshipers of the appropriate changes to make in their behavior, dress, or theology to accommodate the new crystal sphere they found themselves in. In the second case, a divine struggle for dominance ensued, and one power won (usually after a short and spectacular battle, but sometimes after years of manipulation and divine intrigue). The loser either was banished from the Realms or was reduced to the level of a demipower and lingered on. If, however, the Realms sphere of influence in the crystal sphere the new immigrants moved to lacked any deity with the portfolio of a deity worshiped by these immigrants, the immigrant deity was free to cross over to this new crystal sphere and sphere of influence uncontested, and in most cases did so. Such immigration-induced flux was common within the Faerûnian pantheon, which had many waves of immigrants after the spheres of influence were formalized.
That is canon, and it has fundamentally shaped the Realms in drastic ways. The entire Faerunian Pantheon is the result of a merger between various human pantheons: the Talfiric (Western Heartlands), the Netherese (modern day Anauroch region), the Coramshite (modern day Tethyr and Calimshan), and the Jhaamdathan (modern day Vilhon Reach).
Fundamentally speaking, if you take away the portfolio restriction then there is no reason that there cannot be 50 gods of magic, 100 different gods of war, 20 gods of the moon, and 30 gods of the sun--all of them being worshiped simultaneously in the same region. They could even form their own mini-pantheons, similar to how Talos has done with the Deities of Fury. We could call them the Sun Pantheon, the War Pantheon, the Moon Pantheon, and the Magic Pantheon.
The deities are real, and so long as they have worshipers they are fine. They aren't going anywhere. It is pretty clear that the portfolio restriction exists to hopefully eliminate this type of situation, or at least keep it under control.
The issue is not that Racial and Cultural Pantheons exist. It makes perfect sense that they exist. They are radically different cultures. The problem only occurs when cultures start to intermingle and blend together, such as what is happening in Silverymoon.
If the Elves, Humans, and Dwarves did not wish to live together, and they stuck to their own cultural and racial spaces or "spheres" then there would not be any issues among the deities. It is not the fault of the gods that their mortal followers all want to shack up together and be friends. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2015 : 23:36:17
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(At times I like having many different deities. But I want to put forth a position that is contrary to the majority here for the sake of argument.)
I do not like racial deities in the multiverse or Planescape, either. In Planescape/the universe I would rather have Orcs worship like Ares, Set, or something than an “orcish pantheon”. Although in that setting I like having innumerable deities and in my own planescape writings have added things like other pantheons like the Inuit, Aztec, Mayan, Slavic and additional deities from ones already present like Tawaret/Sekhmet in the Egyptian pantheon ...
I don’t see a reason for regional pantheons, too. For example Jupiter and Zeus are the same… (with other deities being very similar “sky god” archtypes) They just need different names. If a deity represents the divine essence of a universal concept (like storms) it does not make sense that multiple entities representing a universal concept could co-exist. Although they have different manifestations they are not entirely distinct entities (think of how Krishna is a manifestation of Vishnu)
If deities are not distinctive from one another in a significant way I think it should be safe to say they are the same entity perceived differently by different cultures. Whether the worshipers interact with each other does not seem relevant.
For example, Talos as a destructive force could easily be Malyk, Kozah and Bhaelros but also Zeus, Jupiter, Gruumsh, Susanoo, Indra and so forth. It is a more sophisticated and logical understanding of divinity. The real world is the only possible basis of logical analysis of these ideas so Aldrik’s talking about Roman, Greek and Egyptian interactions is the best basis for discussing hypothetical divine beings.
Within realms mythology if Selune is the primordial goddess of the moon then when Elves migrated to the Forgotten Realms their prayers would have gone to Selune. Sehanine is not able to exist in the realms as a moon deity because Selune is THE moon goddess there, they cannot coexist regardless of culture.
Player characters cannot hope to oppose a being as powerful as a deity so talking about having different divine foes is a little pointless. Deities should not be so human-like they areNo mortal could hope to oppose a deity so they should not be the basis of campaigns. A variety of flavours could be different manifestations (Talos, Malyk and Bhaelros although the same basic core entity are distinct enough that they and their followers could come into conflict. It is stated worshipers of Bhaelros and Talos fight each other)
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Edited by - MrHedgehog on 21 Feb 2015 23:39:54 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2015 : 01:27:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
It's a fallacy in RPG settings that one deity should be the only one with influence or control over a portfolio or divine domain. A single world pantheon might make things somewhat simpler, but there's absolutely no harm whatsoever in having three or four different racial or cultural deities of war, or magic, or pottery-making. Unless your PCs are gods themselves, how or why would they ever need to know how portfolios work, why they can or can't be shared, or why overlap can happen?
The problem is that it is not a fallacy. It is a straight up decree by Ao himself. It is canon.
It is canon for the published Realms, yes. But I meant that it's actually a fallacy when looking at gaming and world-building as a whole. I think it's one of the worst aspects of divinity in the Realms, because it's too limiting.
No one needs to keep this philosophy for their own version of the Realms. I certainly didn't.
And really, if you stick with a more organic, culturally driven approach to deities, you can totally throw it out the window because it's totally fine IMO to have multiple gods overseeing magic as long as they each are tied to a specific culture.
On Earth, there are different gods of magic, but at no time was there any reason or value to humanity to group them all in one location. You simply would never need to have a MAGIC pantheon or a WAR pantheon where you pull all thematically similar gods from each culture (handpicking them out like cherries) and group them together. There would be no reason to ever do so, so it wouldn't happen.
And it didn't happen, on Earth.
But in a clash or melding of two cultures, one god of magic might rise in popularity while the other is beaten or fades to take a lesser role or position. That makes sense organically, and new stories would be borne out of the merging.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2015 : 01:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I do not like racial deities in the multiverse or Planescape, either. (...)
I don’t see a reason for regional pantheons, too. For example Jupiter and Zeus are the same… (with other deities being very similar “sky god” archtypes) They just need different names. If a deity represents the divine essence of a universal concept (like storms) it does not make sense that multiple entities representing a universal concept could co-exist. Although they have different manifestations they are not entirely distinct entities (think of how Krishna is a manifestation of Vishnu)
There's no problem with wanting to frame your divine rules this way. It's the way you prefer, so it's absolutely fine to do so and have this preference.
quote:
If deities are not distinctive from one another in a significant way I think it should be safe to say they are the same entity perceived differently by different cultures. Whether the worshipers interact with each other does not seem relevant.
For example, Talos as a destructive force could easily be Malyk, Kozah and Bhaelros but also Zeus, Jupiter, Gruumsh, Susanoo, Indra and so forth. It is a more sophisticated and logical understanding of divinity. The real world is the only possible basis of logical analysis of these ideas so Aldrik’s talking about Roman, Greek and Egyptian interactions is the best basis for discussing hypothetical divine beings.
I think the key issue here, and the reason I personally dislike this approach, is exactly what you mention: distinctiveness. It's just not the case that all warrior deities are equivalent, or that all magic deities are equivalent. Similar in some ways, but not equivalent.
Superficially, they share some common portfolio "traits" with other deities. But honestly, if you study the deeper stories each culture has for their gods, that's where the similarities end.
It's actually simpler, not more complex or sophisticated. It's the Joseph Campbell idea of looking for cross-cultural iconic symbolism (devaluing the deities themselves in favor of meta-concepts), or like the idea of Platonian Primary Forms/Sources. By saying Zeus is Odin, you're actually washing away the massive amount of differences that are inherent in the cultural stories, even the purposes and meanings of having those deities and what they mean for society. And the reality is that this method solves no problem and really adds nothing to each culture's understanding of their gods except in a "isn't that interesting, but sorta meaningless" way.
So it's an academic approach looking for similar relational concepts across cultures, but in no way is it more sophisticated and it's actually not very good science because all the detail is washed out in favor of finding similar matches.
And perhaps most importantly, in the fictional Realms, the gods clearly are not just concepts. They are immortal entities with their own distinct personalities and histories of behaviors over thousands of years (or millenia). Mystra isn't just a transcendent concept, she's actually real in the Realms, and so is Azuth and Savras - each with their own long history and activities, their own distinct philosopy and goals, and they even show up from time to time. They have portfolios, and gods like Mystra may insist that they are those portfolios in some kind of transcendent sense, but the truth is that gods can die, their portfolios can go unattended, so they're really not just "primary concepts" or "primary forms" in a Platonian or Campbell-like sense.
The Realms gods also lie or misrepresent the truth, or fail to correct their faithful. To me, although it's supposed to be canon, the idea that there's only one single pantheon from which all avatars come is rather too simplistic, solves no real issues in a divine sense, and actually makes having so many avatars with different names rather pointless.
If you really want that level of simplicity, why not just have a single pantheon since the beginning of time, with no avatar deaths and no changes in faiths, if they're really just higher concept/forms. What's the point of all the faked deity deaths, or having 50 unique avatar names for different cultures? Why not just have the one? Why anthropomorphize the deities at all?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 22 Feb 2015 02:19:19 |
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Fallen deities you would like to see restored.
