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 Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are alive in 5e FR
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe

USA
324 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2014 :  22:11:40  Show Profile Send Drustan Dwnhaedan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

Recently, I've sent a letter to Christopher Perkins (WotC lead world builder and D&D creative manager), talking about Eilistraee's role in the Realms and why I feel that she is an integral, even iconic, part of the setting. The answer that I have received was very encouraging and -since he gave me the ok- I've decided to share it.

quote:
Thank you for your letter and follow-up email. It's always nice to hear from fans who are passionate about our game worlds, the Forgotten Realms in particular.


I can't speak much with regard to the story of Eilistraee thus far, as I was not involved in its creation or evolution. However, I know that during the 3E and 4E era, there was a attempt to shrink the enormous pantheon of FR gods, as well as an effort to paint the drow as being almost universally evil to make it clear that Drizzt Do'Urden is extraordinary. (The argument is that Drizzt becomes less of an iconoclast if there are good drow everywhere.)



Our thinking has changed somewhat with 5E. We would rather embrace the complexities of FR than oversimplify it. The Sundering (as told in recent novels) will enable us to restore all of the "lost" gods of the FR pantheon, including Eilistraee. I don't know the extent to which she'll feature in upcoming stories, but in our minds she is very much alive. I hope this news allays some of your concerns.


Cheers,


Chris Perkins
D&D Story/World-Building Lead
Wizards of the Coast LLC


This is pretty awesome news, including the part about embracing the complexity of the Realms.



This is incredibly awesome news! Looks like I decided to return here at just the right time!
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  13:50:07  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is something i think everyone can agree is good news. Though i want overly thrilled by having pretty much every god ever brought back to life , this is something I have no problem.
Mostly because I really like the drow
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4393 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  19:29:53  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

E didn't discriminate against males nearly as much as Lolth did. I didn't like how they weren't allowed to jointhe priestess' dancing, but they wweren't mistreated, either, and Eilistraee wanted relationships to be born of love, not dominance. Elkantar, Qilue's, lover, had a high place among the clergy, IIRC correctly from Demihuman Deities.





I am curious where source is that males were not allowed to dance with females. Oh something like the final dance was a solo, however I never saw anything of a restriction of circle dance.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  20:57:55  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Idk. I've never found any restriction like that in lore. Circles of dance and song are communal events, with all people free to partecipate IIRC.

There's the Evensong and the free form dancing that followers do to worship Eilistraee (and the Candle Dance in the Promenade), but those are solitary/personal and not shareable, and not restricted to females (the candle dance is priestesses-only tho). Maybe a communal spellsong, but that would be a consequence of the gender-specific priesthood.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 27 Sep 2014 21:06:25
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CorellonsDevout
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USA
2381 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  21:24:57  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was in WotSQ. Ryld was frustrated because males weren't allowed to join in the dance, and he thought "so much for equality". That is the only place I have read it, however.

Sweet water and light laughter
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  21:37:16  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, I know, but I think that Kentinal was wondering what lore the author of the book used as source for describing that behaviour. I don't recally any writeup of Eilistraee calling for it, I may be wrong tho.

There is even an article written by SKR (one of the author of the FRCS), called ''Drow social relationships'', in which it is said that Eilistraeen drow can enjoy a fairly gender-equal society, similarly to Vhaerunites.

There are definitely many incongruences between novels and other lore when it comes to this matter.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 27 Sep 2014 21:38:31
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Kentinal
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4393 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  21:41:34  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Anyone that accepts all of WotSQ clearly does not know how bad some of the authors did not know the dogma. *sighs*

Certain dances clearly would be personal ones, however nothing in dogma indicated that males could not dance in circle dance. There also was female leadership indicated in most gathers of followers of the Dark Maiden. How much is cultural or how much is from what Ed has said, most of the gathers of followers were for religious purposes. Clearly a worship event would be lead by Priestess or the very rare Priest. Ed has a hard time seeing any true Eilistraee community like a town or village, the only place that followers would establish as a base would be a temple. A temple of course would be ruled by the clergy.


"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  21:50:16  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it doens't matter anymore at this point. I just hope to see that aspect toned down in eventual novels/stories, now that Eilistraee is (likely) returning. Not removed, because some sexism is natural among converts (for reasons already discussed above), but toned down to the point where we won't see stuff like males feeling that they don't have a place among Eilistraeens anymore (which is too much, considering the Dark Dancer's goal and role).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 27 Sep 2014 21:51:58
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2381 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2014 :  21:53:33  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Anyone that accepts all of WotSQ clearly does not know how bad some of the authors did not know the dogma. *sighs*

Certain dances clearly would be personal ones, however nothing in dogma indicated that males could not dance in circle dance. There also was female leadership indicated in most gathers of followers of the Dark Maiden. How much is cultural or how much is from what Ed has said, most of the gathers of followers were for religious purposes. Clearly a worship event would be lead by Priestess or the very rare Priest. Ed has a hard time seeing any true Eilistraee community like a town or village, the only place that followers would establish as a base would be a temple. A temple of course would be ruled by the clergy.





Which is why I said WotSQ is the only place I have read it. I am aware that authors aren't always accurate with lore.

Sweet water and light laughter
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe

Greece
580 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2014 :  08:02:31  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good News from Christopher Perkins...

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1930 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2014 :  14:00:03  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Anyone that accepts all of WotSQ clearly does not know how bad some of the authors did not know the dogma. *sighs*

Certain dances clearly would be personal ones, however nothing in dogma indicated that males could not dance in circle dance.
"Dogma" in sourcebook gives only bones, and not enough for a full skeleton at that.
Word Of Ed on this is interpretable, especially since there are no dates.
The rest is your "fanon candidate" interpretation vs. novel.
And this may be not relevant at all, since it could be simply priestesses (and wannabees) vs. tagalong crew.

quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Which is why I said WotSQ is the only place I have read it. I am aware that authors aren't always accurate with lore.

Aw, thanks.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2014 :  14:42:17  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Anyone that accepts all of WotSQ clearly does not know how bad some of the authors did not know the dogma. *sighs*

Certain dances clearly would be personal ones, however nothing in dogma indicated that males could not dance in circle dance.
"Dogma" in sourcebook gives only bones, and not enough for a full skeleton at that.
Word Of Ed on this is interpretable, especially since there are no dates.
The rest is your "fanon candidate" interpretation vs. novel.
And this may be not relevant at all, since it could be simply priestesses (and wannabees) vs. tagalong crew.




Yeah, but even there Ed says that males take part (and are welcome to do so) to the various rituals and dances dedicated to Eilistraee (save for the clergy-specific ones). Also, in their solitary rituals, the Dark Dancer ''smiles'' and can manifest her presence to them (through moonfire, for example) just like she does with females. The part where males don't have a definite place is the clergy, because

quote:
One cannot truly feel the Divine Dance of Eilistraee PROPERLY except as a female, and so her (still very rare, few, and generally secretive about it) male priests must spend some time as a female (not just for the duration of a ritual, but they must do some everyday living as a female). The most accomplished drow, elf, half-elf, and human male priests seem to feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to “cleave more fully to the Goddess” and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form


Personally, I guess that this is largely because of Ed picturing Eilistraee as a mother goddess, with a hint of deity of fertility thrown in (he said this in the ''Ask Ed'' thread from 2006, IIRC) -in fact male priests seem to ''feel the need'' to change form-. But yeah, it leads to discrimination (even tho for drow males who wish to become priests, it is still a huge improvement over Lolth), but the attitude of general reluctance could have changed over time (as it often happens), if WotC had cared to develop this matter instead of throwing everything away.

However, setting the priesthood aside, males should enjoy a fairly gender-equal tratment -as it is also said in the document I named a few posts above-, even tho communties tend to be directed by females (as they mainly form around their faith and are therefore led by the clergy, which is mostly female. Even then -according to Ed's reply- there is no fixed rule which establishes that males can't become ''decision-making'' persons...). Sure, some drow women can display sexism or lack of trust towards males (mostly recent converts, I guess, as a result of the remnants of their prevous lifestyle), but the latter are lovingly welcomed by Eilistraee to join her, and definitely do have a place among her followers.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 05 Oct 2014 20:21:28
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4393 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2014 :  18:33:40  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Anyone that accepts all of WotSQ clearly does not know how bad some of the authors did not know the dogma. *sighs*

Certain dances clearly would be personal ones, however nothing in dogma indicated that males could not dance in circle dance.
"Dogma" in sourcebook gives only bones, and not enough for a full skeleton at that.
Word Of Ed on this is interpretable, especially since there are no dates.
The rest is your "fanon candidate" interpretation vs. novel.
And this may be not relevant at all, since it could be simply priestesses (and wannabees) vs. tagalong crew.



Oh it is clear that dogma in 2nd or 3rd Edition is bare bones of core teachings. I however cited core dogma as to circle dance and something like the Last Dance or other religious dances preformed only by clergy. As far as Ed's answer in part it was me asking and I clearly did not forget it. Calling me a "fanon candidate" appears to be intended as an insult, please verify if this is so.
Ed has also indicated in other replies to me that each collection of leaders to vary some form the core dogma, how much variance clearly can result in some groups being more repressive of males then others. The faith of Eilistraee is loosely connected though Qilué was considered High Priestess of the Faith while alive, but few of the followers would have talked with her. Eiliistraee like other deities communicate with dreams or visions in addition clearly is the verbal and written lore about those strange Drow that did not attack first.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 05 Oct 2014 :  19:29:52  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Calling me a "fanon candidate" appears to be intended as an insult, please verify if this is so.




Don't worry, ''fanon'' is fan made lore, it definitely isn't an inuslt. I think that TBeholder meant to say that novels take precedence over people's personal interpretation when it comes to canon.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 05 Oct 2014 20:10:53
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore

Poland
1190 Posts

Posted - 07 Oct 2014 :  16:51:35  Show Profile  Visit Zireael's Homepage Send Zireael a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS

Good News from Christopher Perkins...



What do you mean?

SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!

http://zireael07.wordpress.com/
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5672 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  00:31:18  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Don't worry, ''fanon'' is fan made lore, it definitely isn't an inuslt. I think that TBeholder meant to say that novels take precedence over people's personal interpretation when it comes to canon.



"Fanon".

I like that. As someone who has made up more than a little "fanon" over the years, I know what it's like to have an idea that you think is "better" or "more correct" than the prevailing information out there. And my view is that most often, it's the novelists who chuck in these throwaway lines that put everything out of kilter. This can be frustrating but the simple answer is to insert your idea into the existing structure and explain why.

So in this case, for example, you can say that some sects of Eilistraee don't allow males to join the Circle Dance and some do. The Dark Promenade drow do or don't (as it suits an individual DM/Campaign) and the pivot point to justify it might be Elkantar's death, with Qilue relaxing the prohibition in his memory or enforcing a prohibition in his memory (i.e. since his death she can't bear to see males in the Circle Dance) or something like that.

As long as you provide an explanation, everything always turns out fairly okay.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus

Edited by - George Krashos on 08 Oct 2014 00:32:19
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  00:46:46  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

So in this case, for example, you can say that some sects of Eilistraee don't allow males to join the Circle Dance and some do. The Dark Promenade drow do or don't (as it suits an individual DM/Campaign) and the pivot point to justify it might be Elkantar's death, with Qilue relaxing the prohibition in his memory or enforcing a prohibition in his memory (i.e. since his death she can't bear to see males in the Circle Dance) or something like that.

As long as you provide an explanation, everything always turns out fairly okay.

-- George Krashos



Yeah, that makes sense, especially because Eilistraee is described as the kind of goddess who -while having close contact with her followers- leaves ample freedom to her people and doesn't come down to personally correct or bend things how she sees fit. However this should be taken carefully, because when males feel that they doesn't have a place among eilistraeens, then you have a bit of a problem, as the Dark Maiden welcomes and wishes for all drow to join her (all beings, actually). Besides, even in Ed's reply and other sources, there's nothing that suggests something as drastic as this, on the contrary...

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1961 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  02:36:10  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hopefully the Masked Lord is restored as well to slap down those misandrist cavorting pop-tarts.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  02:47:19  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are closely linked, I doubt that they would bring one back without the other (I hope that sister and brother will be at least neutral to each other, this time).

quote:
those misandrist cavorting pop-tarts.


Aw c'mon, focus the hate on lolthites. Also ''misandrist pop-tarts'' is way too harsh, even more so because I'm fairly sure that there are many priestesses of Eilistraee who treat males with respect and fairness.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 08 Oct 2014 02:49:32
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1961 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  03:12:41  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Based on the Lady Penitent series, I don't think that is too unfair, but truly, I jest. I'm hot on the dusky fem-fencers. And yes, I am aware of the many negative opinions given those books, but I enjoyed them and I think it not unreasonable for drow females to feel superior. They are bigger and stronger and contemporary drow (Lolth-worshipping) society indocrinates them into such attitudes. Centuries of social dogma are hard to break.

Perhaps, if I was given the oppurtunity to imprison a few of these high and mighty females, I could break their spirits through a rigid system of humiliation and degradation to disavow them of their sexist worldview.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 08 Oct 2014 03:30:30
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  03:41:00  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

Based on the Lady Penitent series, I don't think that is too unfair, but truly, I jest. I'm hot on the dusky fem-fencers. And yes, I am aware of the many negative opinions given those books, but I enjoyed them and I think it not unreasonable for drow females to feel superior. They are bigger and stronger and contemporary drow (Lolth-worshipping) society indocrinates them into such attitudes. Centuries of social dogma are hard to break.




True. I've already said it here, the priestesses are not Eilistraee. However the attitude changes from one priestess/sect to another (as it is logical, since they are obviously not all the same): some can be sexist (especially ''recent'' converts), some are nicer and respectful. After all, one would expect more experienced clerics to be more in line with the Dark Dancer's thought. This would also lessen the degree of the discrepance between some sources and novels (which extremized the discrimination towards males).

quote:
but truly, I jest. I'm hot on the dusky fem-fencers


Heh, many are...

quote:
Perhaps, if I was given the oppurtunity to imprison a few of these high and mighty females, I could break their spirits through a rigid system of humiliation and degradation to disavow them of their sexist worldview.


Ok, that's harsh.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 08 Oct 2014 03:42:29
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1961 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  03:46:42  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Moral sacrifices I am selflessly willing to commit for the betterment of all of Faerun.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out

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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
3118 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  03:51:27  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire

Moral sacrifices I am selflessly willing to commit for the betterment of all of Faerun.





Be careful that all the ''humilation and degradation'' don't turn their feeling of superiority into actual misandrism, tho (which wouldn't be very helpful for the ''betterment of all Faerun''...).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 08 Oct 2014 03:54:00
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader

USA
2381 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  04:02:23  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As Irennan said, it largely depends on the priestess, particularly those who grew up as Lolthites, but not all the priestesses were sexist. Leliana (sp?) fancied Naxil (who I loved), and it said she considered taking him as a lover, but she wouldn't force him, for she was an Eilistraeen now, and would follow Eilistraee's rules. She was not treating Naxil as inferior.

Sweet water and light laughter
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1930 Posts

Posted - 08 Oct 2014 :  07:07:36  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder

Word Of Ed on this is interpretable, especially since there are no dates.
The rest is your "fanon candidate" interpretation vs. novel.
And this may be not relevant at all, since it could be simply priestesses (and wannabees) vs. tagalong crew.

Yeah, but even there Ed says that males take part (and are welcome to do so) to the various rituals and dances dedicated to Eilistraee
Yup, and we still don't know whether changes he mentioned were introduced before or after the events of "Extinction".
Nor which rule applies for every specific ritual.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan

(save for the clergy-specific ones). Also, in their solitary rituals, the Dark Dancer ''smiles'' and can manifest her presence to them (through moonfire, for example) just like she does with females. The part where males don't have a definite place is the clergy, because

"Clergy, clergy, clergy." So... you didn't read the last line before responding or forgot what the argument is about?
Because it is irrelevant whether male clergy (which was absent in that specific circle) would be admitted, when applied to Ryld, who wasn't even much of a follower.

Far be it from me to say that Lisa Smedman is always sticking to canon lore... especially related to gods and/or magic... including in "Extinction" itself... But this case technically is not off the road canon-wise.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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