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Originally posted by Kentinal

Anyone that accepts all of WotSQ clearly does not know how bad some of the authors did not know the dogma. *sighs*

Certain dances clearly would be personal ones, however nothing in dogma indicated that males could not dance in circle dance. There also was female leadership indicated in most gathers of followers of the Dark Maiden. How much is cultural or how much is from what Ed has said, most of the gathers of followers were for religious purposes. Clearly a worship event would be lead by Priestess or the very rare Priest. Ed has a hard time seeing any true Eilistraee community like a town or village, the only place that followers would establish as a base would be a temple. A temple of course would be ruled by the clergy.

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Anyone that accepts all of WotSQ clearly does not know how bad some of the authors did not know the dogma. *sighs*

Certain dances clearly would be personal ones, however nothing in dogma indicated that males could not dance in circle dance.

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Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

Which is why I said WotSQ is the only place I have read it. I am aware that authors aren't always accurate with lore.

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Anyone that accepts all of WotSQ clearly does not know how bad some of the authors did not know the dogma. *sighs*

Certain dances clearly would be personal ones, however nothing in dogma indicated that males could not dance in circle dance.

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"Dogma" in sourcebook gives only bones, and not enough for a full skeleton at that.
Word Of Ed on this is interpretable, especially since there are no dates.
The rest is your "fanon candidate" interpretation vs. novel.
And this may be not relevant at all, since it could be simply priestesses (and wannabees) vs. tagalong crew.

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One cannot truly feel the Divine Dance of Eilistraee PROPERLY except as a female, and so her (still very rare, few, and generally secretive about it) male priests must spend some time as a female (not just for the duration of a ritual, but they must do some everyday living as a female). The most accomplished drow, elf, half-elf, and human male priests seem to feel the need to take female form for some days every few years or so (if they wish to “cleave more fully to the Goddess” and thus rise in levels), and most spend longer and longer times in female form

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Kentinal

Anyone that accepts all of WotSQ clearly does not know how bad some of the authors did not know the dogma. *sighs*

Certain dances clearly would be personal ones, however nothing in dogma indicated that males could not dance in circle dance.

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"Dogma" in sourcebook gives only bones, and not enough for a full skeleton at that.
Word Of Ed on this is interpretable, especially since there are no dates.
The rest is your "fanon candidate" interpretation vs. novel.
And this may be not relevant at all, since it could be simply priestesses (and wannabees) vs. tagalong crew.

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Originally posted by Kentinal
Calling me a "fanon candidate" appears to be intended as an insult, please verify if this is so.

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Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS

Good News from Christopher Perkins...

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Originally posted by Irennan
Don't worry, ''fanon'' is fan made lore, it definitely isn't an inuslt. I think that TBeholder meant to say that novels take precedence over people's personal interpretation when it comes to canon.

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Originally posted by George Krashos

So in this case, for example, you can say that some sects of Eilistraee don't allow males to join the Circle Dance and some do. The Dark Promenade drow do or don't (as it suits an individual DM/Campaign) and the pivot point to justify it might be Elkantar's death, with Qilue relaxing the prohibition in his memory or enforcing a prohibition in his memory (i.e. since his death she can't bear to see males in the Circle Dance) or something like that.

As long as you provide an explanation, everything always turns out fairly okay.

-- George Krashos

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those misandrist cavorting pop-tarts.

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Originally posted by Fellfire

Based on the Lady Penitent series, I don't think that is too unfair, but truly, I jest. I'm hot on the dusky fem-fencers. And yes, I am aware of the many negative opinions given those books, but I enjoyed them and I think it not unreasonable for drow females to feel superior. They are bigger and stronger and contemporary drow (Lolth-worshipping) society indocrinates them into such attitudes. Centuries of social dogma are hard to break.

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but truly, I jest. I'm hot on the dusky fem-fencers

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Perhaps, if I was given the oppurtunity to imprison a few of these high and mighty females, I could break their spirits through a rigid system of humiliation and degradation to disavow them of their sexist worldview.

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Originally posted by Fellfire

Moral sacrifices I am selflessly willing to commit for the betterment of all of Faerun.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by TBeholder

Word Of Ed on this is interpretable, especially since there are no dates.
The rest is your "fanon candidate" interpretation vs. novel.
And this may be not relevant at all, since it could be simply priestesses (and wannabees) vs. tagalong crew.

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Yeah, but even there Ed says that males take part (and are welcome to do so) to the various rituals and dances dedicated to Eilistraee

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Originally posted by Irennan

(save for the clergy-specific ones). Also, in their solitary rituals, the Dark Dancer ''smiles'' and can manifest her presence to them (through moonfire, for example) just like she does with females. The part where males don't have a definite place is the clergy, because

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Originally posted by TBeholder

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by TBeholder

Word Of Ed on this is interpretable, especially since there are no dates.
The rest is your "fanon candidate" interpretation vs. novel.
And this may be not relevant at all, since it could be simply priestesses (and wannabees) vs. tagalong crew.

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Yeah, but even there Ed says that males take part (and are welcome to do so) to the various rituals and dances dedicated to Eilistraee

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Yup, and we still don't know whether changes he mentioned were introduced before or after the events of "Extinction".
Nor which rule applies for every specific ritual.

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Yes, males participate in almost all rituals, as lay worshippers (as Zandilar quite correctly pointed out). This includes the High Hunt, the Run, and the Circle of Song. Yes, there are rituals that males are excluded from, AS MALES (such as almost all of the longer, more passionate dances). However, increasingly males openly plead with Eilistraeen priestesses to be magically shapechanged so as to take part in such rituals, and the priestesses (if they have the means to do so), oblige them (sometimes the change is brief and temporary, fading out as the ritual ends, and sometimes it lasts for days or much longer, while the shapechanged being undertakes a service for the clergy).

[...]

Specific in-ritual roles of “unchanged” males include dancing, singing, having spells cast ON THEM as part of rituals, taking part in collective spellcastings led by female clergy, intoning prayers in unison and responsively with other devout of Eilistraee, and in the tending of fires, braziers, drawn barriers, vestments and tools handed to or taken from, and used by, female worshippers, and so on. Nothing stops anyone, of any race or gender, praying to Eilistraee, including dancing and singing prayers - - and NO clergy of the Dark Maiden would frown on a male exhibiting such behaviour except when they thought it was being done to deliberately disrupt a larger ritual.

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One cannot truly feel the Divine Dance of Eilistraee PROPERLY except as a female

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Originally posted by Irennan

(save for the clergy-specific ones). Also, in their solitary rituals, the Dark Dancer ''smiles'' and can manifest her presence to them (through moonfire, for example) just like she does with females. The part where males don't have a definite place is the clergy, because

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"Clergy, clergy, clergy." So... you didn't read the last line before responding or forgot what the argument is about?
Because it is irrelevant whether male clergy (which was absent in that specific circle) would be admitted, when applied to Ryld, who wasn't even much of a follower.

Far be it from me to say that Lisa Smedman is always sticking to canon lore... especially related to gods and/or magic... including in "Extinction" itself... But this case technically is not off the road canon-wise.

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However, setting the priesthood aside, males should enjoy a fairly gender-equal tratment -as it is also said in the document I named a few posts above-, even tho communties tend to be directed by females (as they mainly form around their faith and are therefore led by the clergy, which is mostly female. Even then -according to Ed's reply- there is no fixed rule which establishes that males can't become ''decision-making'' persons...). Sure, some drow women can display sexism or lack of trust towards males (mostly recent converts, I guess, as a result of the remnants of their prevous lifestyle), but the latter are lovingly welcomed by Eilistraee to join her, and definitely do have a place among her followers.

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Except among clergy dwelling together in a temple (or forest “temple” community; I’m not speaking here of holy buildings or even a fixed worship site), I don’t think there are any such things as “Eilistreean communities.” (Remember, individuals in the Realms worship an array of gods, not a single deity.) Eilistreean-DOMINATED communities and Eilistreean households, yes. In all of those, females tend to govern (formally make decisions and be consulted in decision-making as the individuals with most social “weight” and influence), involving males primarily as “spot experts” (e.g. “You saw the attack, Phaerold, so tell us - -” and “You’ve dealt with that human more than the rest of us, Phaerold; please give us your opinion as to - - “) Males tend to be daily-bread-winning workers, guards and warriors, and have tasks related to their generally superior physical strength. They do not tend to be supervisors and high-ranking decision-makers. (Please note the word “tend.” I’m speaking in gross generalizations here, not of “a rule that holds true in all cases.”) Many males - - even clerics of Eilistraee - - become spies, scouts, patrolling guards, or leaders of lawkeeping or defensive military forces for Eilistreean-dominated communities or Eilistreean-dedicated holy communities. (To answer Kentinal’s Jan06 query: “Some wonder how Eilistraee reacts to Wizards as followers as there has been little mention of Eilistraee following mages and the one of note is female, where do males fit in?” I can add that male wizards (of any race) accepted as worshippers of Eilistraee also serve in such capacities (and as “resident experts in arcane magic”)

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However, these gender matters can be overstated and overemphasized. On the whole, all clergy of the Dark Maiden welcome an increase in worshippers of the Goddess, and the fellowship (and working with) more and more Servants of the Dark Dancer.

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Originally posted by Irennan

Recently, I've sent a letter to Christopher Perkins (WotC lead world builder and D&D creative manager), talking about Eilistraee's role in the Realms and why I feel that she is an integral, even iconic, part of the setting. The answer that I have received was very encouraging and -since he gave me the ok- I've decided to share it.

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Thank you for your letter and follow-up email. It's always nice to hear from fans who are passionate about our game worlds, the Forgotten Realms in particular.


I can't speak much with regard to the story of Eilistraee thus far, as I was not involved in its creation or evolution. However, I know that during the 3E and 4E era, there was a attempt to shrink the enormous pantheon of FR gods, as well as an effort to paint the drow as being almost universally evil to make it clear that Drizzt Do'Urden is extraordinary. (The argument is that Drizzt becomes less of an iconoclast if there are good drow everywhere.)



Our thinking has changed somewhat with 5E. We would rather embrace the complexities of FR than oversimplify it. The Sundering (as told in recent novels) will enable us to restore all of the "lost" gods of the FR pantheon, including Eilistraee. I don't know the extent to which she'll feature in upcoming stories, but in our minds she is very much alive. I hope this news allays some of your concerns.


Cheers,


Chris Perkins
D&D Story/World-Building Lead
Wizards of the Coast LLC

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This is pretty awesome news, including the part about embracing the complexity of the Realms.

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Eh eh eh
she never disapparead from "my" forgotten realms world, also if my player are almost ever on the surface and rarely in underdark.
But now I'm really curious to see how she has been changed, because I don't belive that would reappear like before.

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I have written new lore about the Dark Dancer recently, but I’m afraid how and when you’ll see it is up to Wizards of the Coast, and I can’t legally reveal more. I would not expect to see it as part of this or the next story, if that helps.

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Originally posted by Fellfire

Hopefully the Masked Lord is restored as well to slap down those misandrist cavorting pop-tarts.

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Originally posted by Fellfire

Based on the Lady Penitent series, I don't think that is too unfair, but truly, I jest. I'm hot on the dusky fem-fencers. And yes, I am aware of the many negative opinions given those books, but I enjoyed them and I think it not unreasonable for drow females to feel superior. They are bigger and stronger and contemporary drow (Lolth-worshipping) society indocrinates them into such attitudes. Centuries of social dogma are hard to break.

Perhaps, if I was given the oppurtunity to imprison a few of these high and mighty females, I could break their spirits through a rigid system of humiliation and degradation to disavow them of their sexist worldview.

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