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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2018 :  21:31:47  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Seethyr,

Hey, I'm looking at your "Grand History of the True World", and I noticed the part of Shar trying to steal Qotal's power.... Qotal and Zaltec temporarily aligning to stop her... and then Qotal showing that he's fallible when he rapes his sister Kiltzi.... anyway, one of the things in Tomb of Annihilation is that there's an Atropal involved. I know you didn't make up the part about Qotal and Kiltzi, as that's canon (and I'm trying to treat your GHotTW as such as well), but I wanted your thoughts... what do you think of the idea that that atropal is the "lovechild" of Qotal and Kiltzi? Also, if it is an Atropal, what would you say as to why it wasn't born? I'm kind of thinking to go with "Kiltzi turned to Zaltec to use Hishna magic to kill the child in the womb".... and maybe this act has haunted the goddess of love and childbirth ever since.


–2225 DR: Diamond Eyes
In the guise of a beautiful mortal woman known only as “Diamond Eyes,” Shar tricks Qotal into giving away some of his divinity. Qotal seeks aid from his hated brother Zaltec and together they easily recover his stolen power. Once the battle is over, the alliance ends as quickly as it began. Qotal is given a vision of his sister Kiltzi in which he recognizes her resemblance to Diamond Eyes and he lusts for her.
–1106 DR: Qotal’s Seduction
For more than a thousand years after his vision of Kiltzi, Qotal observed mankind’s love and play and he grew increasingly jealous. The seed of lust Shar had placed in his mind germinated until he could no longer deny it. Against her wishes, Qotal took his sister Kiltzi and proceeded to fall into a deep slumber. The darkest rumors claim that a child was born of this union, but no evidence of the rumor’s
veracity can be found.

–1105 DR
Kiltzi flees to her brother Zaltec in shame along with her sisters Watil and Nula. Terrible droughts, plagues and natural disasters decimate mankind as Qotal continues to slumber.
–1095 DR
A majority of the human race also turns to Zaltec who demands tens of thousands of sacrifices. The droughts and famine end as the gods once again begin performing their duties.

–812 DR: Departure of the Feathered Dragon
Qotal finally awakens after centuries of slumber to a land all but dominated by the worship of crueler gods. He attempts to punish mankind by taking their speech, but his power is no longer what it once was and only his few remaining priests comply. Qotal begins a self-imposed exile, though he leaves the Prophecy of the Cloak of One Plume to indicate when he would return to the shores of the eastern land of Payit. Two massive faces are carved into a rocky bluff where Qotal sets off on brightly feathered canoe by his remaining worshipers. These faces become known as the Twin Visages.





It's funny how much we think alike, way back when I wrote Diamond Eyes I had thought about that. To be honest, I shied away from it because of the subject matter. Yes, there should be an atropal out there somewhere.

I had also thought to have Kiltzi birth the 400 Drunken Rabbits and bring them to Maztica as a divine sort of nature spirit, but I might use a less controversial scenario for them.

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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2018 :  21:36:43  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Eberron uses giant ruins all over the place, as does Pathfinder's Golarion. If any setting should have some, it should be FR's (and I've managed to steal Eberron's - whole cloth - without really stealing them!) Neat trick, huh?




There is a lot of giant lore in actual Aztec myth. I attempted to develop an outcast clan of stone giants cursed by the gods (they fled the battles with Garyx ages ago). They also grew greedy and began to worship gold and neglect the Lopangan gods that has shown them mercy. These Gold-Clad-Giant-Kings have a Midas touch like ability that can polymorph others into iron pyrite (fool's gold).

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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2018 :  21:52:22  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas



A) What if the "Darkfyre" was empowering both Zaltec AND Tezca.


Each of the lakes outside of Mount Zatal are related to one of the brother gods. I think the lakes formed as a sort of an antibody to Zaltec's growing power - even Tezca couldn't have been too happy with Zaltec's command of the empire of Nexal. He was becoming a dominant deity in the True World.

In the future (very soon actually), I am working the Darkfire to be a manifestation of power that Zaltec stole from Maztica herself. When Zaltec beheaded Maztica, I had him take her heart and place it in a cavern deep under Zatal. This festering boil is what is making the mountain grow each year (it is growing canonically).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


B) what if the Sleeper IS Zaltec, and the Rockfire Disaster was his awakening



I'm not sure if I am quoting canon here, but I think the Rockfire Disaster was caused by the spell battle between the dwarves and the drow under the sea. It weakened the walls and both magma from below and water from above came pouring into the caverns, chasing the dwarves and drow to MAztica.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


C) what if the "sorcerous orcs" were the remnants of the human Tabaxi civilization who had left to follow Qotal in Chult (and some of whom had left after being changed into cat folk named tabaxi and settled in Far Payit). I specify Tabaxi, since it is the sleeper that assaults them.

D) what if since Zaltec is already known for turning humans into orcs... (i.e. when he turned thousands of humans into orcs during the night of wailing), these "sorcerous orcs" WERE humans.


That is awesome. Perhaps Lopango/Katashaka had a mirror event to the Night of Wailing long ago. This could be why the orcs were so advanced in the first place.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


E) What if these humans had turned from the worship of both Zaltec and Tezca, and they were accepting the worship of their northern brothers Intiri and Qotal (and Qotal, Intiri, and many of the good Maztican gods had all retreated to Maztica)
F) So, these humans are punished by Zaltec and Tezca, turned into orcs, some into hags and uthraki (my own reasons for that), and they kill the followers of Intiri and Qotal amongst them.
G) So, these sorcerous orcs are followers of Tezca (god of the sun and fire) who have a huge hate on for the Natican people who worship Intiri (god of the sun).



That certainly works for me. They are bitter at their abandonment by the gods they sought to protect them. By the way, in the near future, I hope to define Maztica's heart as a gigantic blackened and ozzing mess that has tentacles (veins) holding it to the cavern walls. Zaltec gains power when he takes a bite out of the heart itself and can do things like cause the Night of Wailing.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas


H) their empire fell beneath the waves, and their people are force to Lopango (orcs) or into the jungles of Katashaka (hags and uthraki).... and maybe the hags and uthraki are actually followers of Watil and Nula who were also punished.


Perhaps this would've instead been a good time for Zaltec or whomever to awaken the Sleeper. The Sleeper could certainly level a whole civilization, particularly one that depends so heavily on magic.

As far as the uthraki and hags go, I see this as an opportunity for you to develop some similar, but new creatures so as to not step on Rashemite lore's toes. Unless that actually is your intention!



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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2018 :  22:56:33  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Btw, sorry for the poor grammar and misspellings. I’m posting using my phone and editing is really not much fun.

Ozzing? Lol

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 25 Jan 2018 :  23:09:11  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Eberron uses giant ruins all over the place, as does Pathfinder's Golarion. If any setting should have some, it should be FR's (and I've managed to steal Eberron's - whole cloth - without really stealing them!) Neat trick, huh?

The best part about that is, if your a particularly nasty (or creative) DM, you could have them enter the ruins, and have it shift while they are in them, so that when the exit again, They're not in Kansas anymore (or perhaps, they ARE in Kansas!)

I don't think I want so many kaiju running around - it starts to become comical. Definitely one insect one (I am thinking HUGE spider, or Scorpion), and definitely one Avian (a Niven-Roc, like Rodan). I wanted the 'Six Great Beasts' to all be dinos, but truthfully, the Ixalan stuff only details three, so that leaves us an out. We could have Giant prehistoic 'cats', etc. So in other words, I was thinking six Dinos, and six non-Dinos (we already have Akonga as one), which doesn't leave us a lot of play. A giant crab and giant squid/octopus would also be cool.

You know, with the Warforged also in the region... GIANT ones, at that... it wouldn't be too hard to do a Pacific Rim kind of thing here. Too bad I hate 'giant robots' (except for Gigantor - that was the first cartoon I ever truly loved as a child. Don't ask me why).



Well, think of it like this regarding the giant beasts. If I take Katashaka in mspaint and take the center of it (say half the continent) and move it over to above Faerun... it becomes roughly the distance of Mulhorand up to Sossal on one side and then Calimshan up to say Silverymoon on the other side... and all the land between. So, even if we were to put even 15 giant creatures there, with natives worshipping them, that'd still be like an entire country the size of like Cormyr for each one.

Speaking of giants... for cyclopes, do we have an originating parent story for FR? I know for 4e they made them (along with fomorians) as being from the feywild. I just don't want Annam's brood (or anything related to Othea) in Katashaka..... but cyclopes tribes could fit the area.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  00:07:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Seethyr,

Hey, I'm looking at your "Grand History of the True World", and I noticed the part of Shar trying to steal Qotal's power.... Qotal and Zaltec temporarily aligning to stop her... and then Qotal showing that he's fallible when he rapes his sister Kiltzi.... anyway, one of the things in Tomb of Annihilation is that there's an Atropal involved. I know you didn't make up the part about Qotal and Kiltzi, as that's canon (and I'm trying to treat your GHotTW as such as well), but I wanted your thoughts... what do you think of the idea that that atropal is the "lovechild" of Qotal and Kiltzi? Also, if it is an Atropal, what would you say as to why it wasn't born? I'm kind of thinking to go with "Kiltzi turned to Zaltec to use Hishna magic to kill the child in the womb".... and maybe this act has haunted the goddess of love and childbirth ever since.


–2225 DR: Diamond Eyes
In the guise of a beautiful mortal woman known only as “Diamond Eyes,” Shar tricks Qotal into giving away some of his divinity. Qotal seeks aid from his hated brother Zaltec and together they easily recover his stolen power. Once the battle is over, the alliance ends as quickly as it began. Qotal is given a vision of his sister Kiltzi in which he recognizes her resemblance to Diamond Eyes and he lusts for her.
–1106 DR: Qotal’s Seduction
For more than a thousand years after his vision of Kiltzi, Qotal observed mankind’s love and play and he grew increasingly jealous. The seed of lust Shar had placed in his mind germinated until he could no longer deny it. Against her wishes, Qotal took his sister Kiltzi and proceeded to fall into a deep slumber. The darkest rumors claim that a child was born of this union, but no evidence of the rumor’s
veracity can be found.

–1105 DR
Kiltzi flees to her brother Zaltec in shame along with her sisters Watil and Nula. Terrible droughts, plagues and natural disasters decimate mankind as Qotal continues to slumber.
–1095 DR
A majority of the human race also turns to Zaltec who demands tens of thousands of sacrifices. The droughts and famine end as the gods once again begin performing their duties.

–812 DR: Departure of the Feathered Dragon
Qotal finally awakens after centuries of slumber to a land all but dominated by the worship of crueler gods. He attempts to punish mankind by taking their speech, but his power is no longer what it once was and only his few remaining priests comply. Qotal begins a self-imposed exile, though he leaves the Prophecy of the Cloak of One Plume to indicate when he would return to the shores of the eastern land of Payit. Two massive faces are carved into a rocky bluff where Qotal sets off on brightly feathered canoe by his remaining worshipers. These faces become known as the Twin Visages.





It's funny how much we think alike, way back when I wrote Diamond Eyes I had thought about that. To be honest, I shied away from it because of the subject matter. Yes, there should be an atropal out there somewhere.

I had also thought to have Kiltzi birth the 400 Drunken Rabbits and bring them to Maztica as a divine sort of nature spirit, but I might use a less controversial scenario for them.



Yeah, its kind of morbid, but we have at least two atropals in canon in FR now (the one in chult and then Xingax in Thay). They have to come from somewhere. Might as well make it interesting.

Oh, and in your next entry, I hadn't noticed that the gold-clad-giants had the ability to turn people into pyrite. That's actually kind of interesting.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  02:16:07  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So a young flower goddess gets raped, and then becomes the goddess of prostitutes? It makes you wonder about some cultures...
Now for the fun part - I had (briefly) considered 'bunny people' for Katashaka, but I dropped it because I already have an idea for ape-people vs bunny-people over in Kara-Tur (Hengeyokai), and I've already decided to put at least one group of 'Apefolk' in Kata, so I had completely forgotten about my bunny idea. But what if the '400 rabbits' turned into a tribe of bunnyfolk? I was already planning on some rodentfolk (I was going to say those Giant Vole-brothers from the Ring of Winter novel actually came from this region... which is why we never see any trace of anything like them ever again after that one book. I'm not completely loving it, but if you really want the myth in FR (Maztica), then I would use a tribe of rabbit people.

Is Diamond Eyes canon from somewhere, or was that your creation, Seethyr?

@Sleyvas - I think your going to be pretty disappointed then, Sleyvas, because its going to be all about the giants. ALL of them. Every last one I can find. My foundation is the Eberron Xendrik lore, and I am building off of that. I want EVERYTHING Huge. its basically a world made for giants. And everything keeps getting bigger as you travel toward the center. The 'Great bests' and dinosaurs and all are just a part of that - its going to be a prehistoric setting that once housed a giant empire. I want the adventurers not to feel like everything is Huge, so much as I want them to feel like they shrunk. Heck, I even found some canon Sea-Titans.

This all stems from a variety of source-material, starting with the Eberron stuff, and folding-in the PF Golarion stuff, and then going in a bunch of directions from there (and basing it all on a 'lost World of Giants' that had existed in the Time Before Time - I'm even working on a map of the Feywild right now!). I guess, in a way, you could say the Giant Empire wasn't really on Toril (or Abeir-Toril), so much as bits and pieces of it intrude on all worlds, and the stuff regarding Hartsvale, Annam, and Othea are just a small part of that. So if it makes you feel any better, at the same time I am porting-in tons of giant stuff, I am also saying that FR's giant Lore never really happened... at least, not in the way everyone thinks it does. It happened on a world that no longer exists.

I would LOVE to use Cyclopses, and I want to do something really cool with them (they come in THREE sizes!), I just don't want it to look like a complete ripoff of Pathfinder's Rise of the Runelords AP (which is excellent, BTW). I may spin it where after the collapse of the first Giant empire, the (Greater) Cyclopses tied to rebuild it, with them as the rulers, but most of the other giants fought against it (and some were destroyed, and some were subjugated, and others just stayed out of their way, etc.) Something like that.

Mantis Kaiju - I hadn't considered one of those.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2018 02:28:59
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  02:41:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You can find some decent looking 'bunny warriors' HERE. Unfortunately, I can't find the original artist's (WinB) page.

Some other really inspiring stuff on that page as well.

I also like the Yeti-like tauric creature in This One. He'd make a good 'Elder Beast'.

So now I am thinking, maybe they're not all kaiju-sized, or perhaps there are two different groups of Legendary Creatures?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2018 02:57:44
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  03:39:06  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, rather than reply to the above reply, I'll throw out some more advancements.

So, ok, it sounds like we both like this idea of the sorcerous orcs being transformed humans. If their land was actually the land that's "dropped beneath the waves" between Katashaka and that big island off its east coast.... and if I did put some Mulan people on the eastern edge of that island, perhaps it wasn't just their people turning to Qotal and Intiri.... maybe they had even started accepting foreign gods. Thus, maybe there were more nyama-nummo sent to punish these people (i.e. Zaltec inhabiting the sleeper/tarrasque, Nula maybe inhabiting a "Kong-Like" female ape, Azul inhabiting a dire version of spinosaurus, with its crocodilian snout full of fangs, and Tezca inhabiting a dire version of dimetrodon whose "sail back spine" was surrounded in a corona of flame)

I hadn't really thought about the hags and uthraki both being from Rashemen. I'm just looking to make some jungle hags that rule over an empire of apes and monkeys (girallons, winged monkeys, winged apes, etc..). I was also thinking I might change some of the humans into ogre-magi. I was going to call it "The Wilderlands of the Green Empresses", and it would extend to the coastline and include sea hags. The Uthraki would be a brown furred variety, and the only reason I was thinking about them was their resemblance to apes, while still being something more than just muscle. The hags themselves will be experimenters with modifying creatures, but they won't be good at it. Like they've been trying to learn the lore of the creator races. This whole piece needs work, but since I'm having it bordering that region it might work. I could also have the hags come from elsewhere and just have the girallons, uthraki, and ogre-magi be the changed humans.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  03:43:19  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

So a young flower goddess gets raped, and then becomes the goddess of prostitutes? It makes you wonder about some cultures...



You are mixing up Inanna and Kiltzi. Kiltzi is more like Sune than anything. That being said, it is canon that she was raped by Qotal, and it is canon that she turned to Zaltec for help. Qotal then left in shame (i.e. he went to Chult and started calling himself Ubtao).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  04:07:59  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


@Sleyvas - I think your going to be pretty disappointed then, Sleyvas, because its going to be all about the giants. ALL of them. Every last one I can find. My foundation is the Eberron Xendrik lore, and I am building off of that. I want EVERYTHING Huge. its basically a world made for giants. And everything keeps getting bigger as you travel toward the center. The 'Great bests' and dinosaurs and all are just a part of that - its going to be a prehistoric setting that once housed a giant empire. I want the adventurers not to feel like everything is Huge, so much as I want them to feel like they shrunk. Heck, I even found some canon Sea-Titans.




That's fine. If I have 3 kinds of giants, I feel like that's more than plenty. I've pretty much accepted so far that we're both good to throw ideas against and it fuels the imagination. You've drawn your Katashaka and it resembles nothing like mine. For instance, I have savannah and jungle and mountains surrounding the place where the giant things are, but no desert. Your islands are all a bit different too. That being said, would you mind taking your Maztica drawing

https://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Maztica-Forgotten-Realms-723456937

and just the Lopango/Nimbral/Chult portion from this

https://markustay.deviantart.com/art/Katashaka-Conversion-726892852

and putting them together? I could probably do it myself too if you're fine with that. Just don't want to do anything that you might not be cool with. Except that I added some mountains up by Balduran Bay a little inland, oh, and a small "lake" up near the city of gold, it pretty much matches my geography.

I do find it funny though that we keep hitting around similar ideas, but spinning them in different ways. For instance, I too was doing different versions of "rodent folk". First is the classic ratmen, then beguilers from shining south, the psionically enhanced ones who were experimented on like cranium rats, then "meerkatians" who are like meerkats, then finally... Miraji... the rabbit folk who were advanced from the al'miraj (i.e. the unicorn bunny that can teleport).

The one thing though, I really

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  04:24:49  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a direct quote from the link you provided about the 400 rabbits -
quote:
In this story the Goddess of Flowers (including the manguey and its sap), Xochitl, gave some pulque to the King of Tula, who got drunk and raped her. It made her also the Goddess of Early Sexuality and Prostitutes. From then on the Aztecs made sure that drinking became a sole activity of the old and experienced men, who could control themselves.
I wasn't talking about Maztica, I was talking about RW Aztecs.





"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Markustay
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Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  04:44:00  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Lower Maztica area from the one map IS a paste-in from the other map, but the scales are very different. I forget by how much. I was planning on eventually doing a conjoined map because I also want to add-in Ed's Anchoromé Islands (except I will be putting them somewhat further south than he had them - like right off the right (east) coast of Maztica. I'll play around with that tomorrow.

The whole point, really, of my pasting the Xendrik stuff directly into Katshaka was that people could have an entire sourcebook (and parts of another) to work from, without me really having to do much. And as I've said, I've managed to spin it in such a way that it makes sense the locales are in both settings at the same time.

I only added the desert after re-reading the Nyambe stuff, and realized I needed at least one (because my one CKC article does mention the lost Mulan settlements in the region). Plus, I also found that Xendrik has deserts.

I didn't really want orcs, but now I'm rethinking a couple of things, and if the Orcs aren't real orcs (they just look like orcs), then that could work. Its just that with Orcs, its starting to sound like generic RPG setting 2.0. I'll have to buy Seethyr's Lopango book tomorrow, to see how I can make it all work. I could say that there was an 'orc Empire' (an over-glorification on their part) in Lopango, and they had made some landings on the northern coast of Katshaka.

As for the Giants themselves, as per the Xendrik lore, their empire/kingdoms are all LONG gone. Just a few tribes, really, and very primitive. Even the storm and cloud giants have 'gone native'. hill, mounatian, and jungle giants might all be doing well, and have several tribes, but the others may be 1-2 tribes each. Titans are a 'special' - I don't think I am going to use any beyond the Dreamers and Syllia (the 'escapee'), who I thought I was just borrowing from Egg of Phoenix, but it turns out she has some old-school D&D lore attached to her (2e Monstrous Manual). Even with the few titans (and Kaiju), a landmass of this size would mean you'd have to go looking for these things to even find them.

Most of the Mountain ranges on my map came right from the FRIA maps (there are some that show mountains in Kata), but I added to them when I over-layed Xendrik on top of it. I wish I could talk about the Rashear Coast more, but I haven't heard back from Frog God Games.

Oh, and the Hags - I didn't mention them because I don't mind them AT ALL. I love me some hags. You see, in my purely homebrew world/material, giants are ALL male. Female giants are hags. And they're all Fey... sort of. The come from the Feywild. So hags can change size, and thats how all that works. She gives birth to male children of the type the father is, and all females are baby hags (who are very beautiful until something happens to them... I never decided what. Some sort of ritual to gain their magical powers, I am guessing).

Homebrew:
Hags are size: large in their natural forms, usually gangley and about 7' tall, but occasionally you'll see a plump one. They can change size (category) twice per day, up or down one size category (so about every 12 hrs). They cannot become smaller than Size: Small, and it literally pains them to become that small, thus, it is extremely rare they ever become smaller than medium size. Their max size is normally huge, but stories tell of some of them being able to become even bigger (Ancient Crone).

Normally they adjust their size to breed with giants, but they can literally breed with anything. When they breed with human males, if the children are male they are hagspawn. They entice human males by taking on the semblance they had when they were young and beautiful, before the Hag curse make them ugly. Unlike the size change, this is only a glamour (illlusion), and spells and what-not can see through or detect it.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2018 08:00:30
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Jürgen Hubert
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Germany
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Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  06:09:07  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
You are mixing up Inanna and Kiltzi. Kiltzi is more like Sune than anything. That being said, it is canon that she was raped by Qotal, and it is canon that she turned to Zaltec for help. Qotal then left in shame (i.e. he went to Chult and started calling himself Ubtao).



Well, this is the story told in the mythology section of the Boxed Set - and the entire mythology is pointed out as unreliable in the Boxed Set itself. The novels state that Qotal left because he was upset about all the human sacrifice.

Which story is true? In my view, this doesn't actually matter - both are stories told by Mazticans about the gods, and the gods are not in the habit of answering questions from mortals about their affairs. In fact, for my "Returned Maztica" project I plan to come up with all sorts of new stories about the gods - many of them contradictory. These stories will be believed by all sorts of cults across Maztica, if not necessarily all of them at the same time, and the gods do not bother to correct them.

(Also, wasn't Ubtao some different entity, such as a Primordial?)

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Jürgen Hubert
Seeker

Germany
31 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  06:19:55  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I've pretty much accepted so far that we're both good to throw ideas against and it fuels the imagination. You've drawn your Katashaka and it resembles nothing like mine.



For the record, I have a different version of the South Continent as well - which (as I have stated elsewhere) I do not identify with Katashaka (to me, Katashaka is the island continent a bit further to the east, and south of Chult). It's somewhat more reminiscent of real world South America. I have three primary cultures:

In the highest mountain ranges there used to be the local equivalent of the Inca Empire... but when the continent moved to Abeir, the inhabitants of their cities gradually retreated to their capital under the onslaught of dragons seeking to plunder them until they finally fled this world with a hidden fleet of Spelljammers (thus tying on those "Incas - Ancient Astronauts" memes). Thus, their cities now are largely ruins with dragons lairing in them. Their subsidiary kingdoms still largely survive.

In the lowlands jungles there are plenty of jungle-dwelling, frequently urban civilizations - just like modern research indicates that there were massive civilizations in the Amazon basin until they were wiped out by European diseases (which has not happened on Faerun, obviously).

Finally, in the coastal areas there are cities and nations established long ago by people from the actual island-continent of Katashaka - I am going for a West African/Moorish vibe here, if these regions had deliberately colonized South Africa. These have introduced all sorts of new plants and animals to the region (yes, including dinosaurs). There are also the odd Zakharan influences (considering there is a massive island chain stretching from Zakhara almost to the South Continent.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  08:30:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I would prefer to go with what you have - make the large island Katashaka, and call the continent something else. I'll have to think on it a bit more.

It is canon that the Chultans came from Katahsaka, and it is also canon that they came "from a great island in the southern seas of Abeir-Toril southeast of Maztica and southwest of Zakhara" (from RoF), which does indeed sound a LOT more like the island is Katashaka; its the only way all the lore works (even though we have the guy who came up with the name 'Katashaka' telling us its the big continent, it doesn't explicitly say that in canon). In fact, putting the two canon pieces of lore together, it does indeed sound like the island is Katashaka.

Except for one problem - I just realized there is a continuity glitch. The Tabaxi/Chultans HAVE TO had come to Chult much earlier than the GHotR indicates. That thing I just quoted specifically says "Abeir-Toril", and as we all know, that planet hasn't existed since the first Sundering.

As for making the large continent South-America: Isnt't that exactly what the 2e team did with Maztica - turn it into a real-world analogy? I feel like people are chasing their own tails with the Mazshakas. Unless its very different than what was done with it before, there isn't a lot of point in redoing it. Maztica itself can't be helped - we wanted it back, and we got it. Its the whole, "be careful what you wish for" thing. Fortunately, a century in Abeir lets us 'spruce it up' and make it more conducive to adventuring. But even the adventuring has to be different - it can't just raiding ruins, because folks can do that back in Faerûn. Something has to make these areas unique so people will want to play there.

Thats part of the reason why I have three two-way Gates in the region, and will be adding two more. Accessibility runs a close second to interesting.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jan 2018 15:21:51
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  15:50:15  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

This is a direct quote from the link you provided about the 400 rabbits -
quote:
In this story the Goddess of Flowers (including the manguey and its sap), Xochitl, gave some pulque to the King of Tula, who got drunk and raped her. It made her also the Goddess of Early Sexuality and Prostitutes. From then on the Aztecs made sure that drinking became a sole activity of the old and experienced men, who could control themselves.
I wasn't talking about Maztica, I was talking about RW Aztecs.



Oh, gotcha, yeah, as we can both attest... RW mythology can get pretty.... odd... I am frankly flabbergasted sometimes as I read some of the stuff.

As an interesting aside to that, I was listening to the radio the other day on the way to work, and they said that the TV show "friends" just came to Netflix or hulu or something over in England. So apparently a bunch of younger people in England are watching this American classic (which started now more than 20 years ago), and they're all up in arms about sexism, lack of diversity, body shaming, homophobia, transgender issues, etc... Which I'm not looking to debate that one way or another, just point out how weird it is how societal views change so fast. What was accepted as the norm and considered funny just a generation back is now considered horrible and not politically correct. Then when we move back another two generations to say world war II, you can see drastic changes there too.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  16:44:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I didn't really want orcs, but now I'm rethinking a couple of things, and if the Orcs aren't real orcs (they just look like orcs), then that could work. Its just that with Orcs, its starting to sound like generic RPG setting 2.0. I'll have to buy Seethyr's Lopango book tomorrow, to see how I can make it all work. I could say that there was an 'orc Empire' (an over-glorification on their part) in Lopango, and they had made some landings on the northern coast of Katshaka.




Yeah, buy his Lopango. It is interesting. He's got a whole "alien v/s predator" vibe with anadjiin (note the anadjiin come from realmspace, on another planet near the sun) and some illithid-breeds known as yagrel (a degenerate form of illithid without mind abilities because the anadjiin screwed with their elder brain) and Tzakandi (ceremorphosed lizard folk).

The orcs themselves CAME FROM Katashaka, and they invaded Lopango. Lopango was previously filled with Naticans (think maybe Mayans) who worship the sun god Intiri (who like the Mulhorandi gods is on Toril, up in the mountains) and Tlincalli. The Naticans and Tlincalli were fighting amongst each other, when in comes these orcs who push the Naticans northward and basically lay claim to 3/4 of Lopango before being stopped. Intiri is believed to be another child of Kukul/Maztica (known to the Naticans as Virachoa/Mama Carocha), but he's "good" as opposed to Tezca who is also a sun god born of the same two, who is "evil".

So, my take on that was basically that the story of the orcs is a little twisted. The "orcs" were humans and they were the remnants of the Tabaxi humans. The Maztican gods for some reason that we're homing in on decide to punish the civilization (maybe they start worshipping Mulan deities... maybe they start birthing incarnations of Mulan gods... maybe they instead have turned to Qotal, Intiri, and Kiltzi and forgotten to honor Zaltec, Tezca, Nula, and Azul with sacrifices). The upset Maztican deities change all the inhabitants of this civilization into other forms, much as how Zaltec changed the humans of Nexala in Maztica into orcs, ogres, trolls, and jagres. They also send their "mortal avatars" to punish the civilization. Then somehow during this punishment, they sink a portion of the continent beneath the waves, disconnecting what you call tabaxiland from Katashaka.

I will also note that the Maztican night of wailing in the 1360's was just in theory a single Maztican god upset with worshippers. If this were say 4 gods, each may transform the people in different ways. Thus, savage gnolls, girallons, and a variation of uthraki might come from Nula. Azul might turn people into sea hags, koalinth, and merrow (aquatic ogres) or even just merfolk. Tezca... the first thought is firenewts, but they're getting overdone.... so how about "orcs with a fire in their blood"... or sorcerous orcs (and just to make them more different, maybe these orcs are ebony black-skinned). Zaltec may have changed folk into ogre magi and jungle hags. Hell, I could probably include like Camazotz (god of bats and the underworld) and Kiga the Predator (cat goddess of hunting) and Ragarra (crocodilian goddess of the jungle & ferocity of nature) to actually explain the "tabaxi" cat folk, bainligor bat folk, and crocodilians.

Anyway, these orcs are powerful sorcerers, which may relate back to their method of transformation.. or their breeding with divine entities.. either way, my thoughts were that they would be fervent followers now of Tezca (lord of the sun and fire), who sends them into Lopango to basically punish the Naticans who worship his brother god Intiri. So, basically, how Qotal and Zaltec don't get along, neither do Intiri and Tezca.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  16:53:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Personally, I would prefer to go with what you have - make the large island Katashaka, and call the continent something else. I'll have to think on it a bit more.

It is canon that the Chultans came from Katahsaka, and it is also canon that they came "from a great island in the southern seas of Abeir-Toril southeast of Maztica and southwest of Zakhara" (from RoF), which does indeed sound a LOT more like the island is Katashaka; its the only way all the lore works (even though we have the guy who came up with the name 'Katashaka' telling us its the big continent, it doesn't explicitly say that in canon). In fact, putting the two canon pieces of lore together, it does indeed sound like the island is Katashaka.




Or they're both Katashaka with at some point the two getting separated, and during that separation many of the "advanced cultures" that existed getting decimated. Whether it be that the continent and the island had a large land mass that's now sunken OR simply some kind of massive earthquake forced the two land masses apart (one can see where the two coasts could easily mesh up). So, you essentially have "East Katashaka" and "West Katashaka" now.... but Faerunians didn't necessarily know the difference... and the people living on the island may have risen up and "renamed" their land (as they say "Istanbul was Constantinople" in the song).

Oh, and said separation doesn't have to coincide with the rockfire disaster 500 years ago. Even the creation of the sorcerous orcs, etc... could have been a thousand years ago... they just have to leave Katashaka around 1001 DR because the sleeper awakens again. If the tabaxi leaving for chult was in the year -2809 DR (and I don't think we can use the fact that they still called it Abeir-Toril as a reason to say the date is incorrect... because people were calling it abeir-toril until 4th edition) then we have roughly 3800 years in which that "shift" or "sinking" could have happened.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Jan 2018 20:21:56
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Jürgen Hubert
Seeker

Germany
31 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  17:25:02  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

As an interesting aside to that, I was listening to the radio the other day on the way to work, and they said that the TV show "friends" just came to Netflix or hulu or something over in England. So apparently a bunch of younger people in England are watching this American classic (which started now more than 20 years ago), and they're all up in arms about sexism, lack of diversity, body shaming, homophobia, transgender issues, etc... Which I'm not looking to debate that one way or another, just point out how weird it is how societal views change so fast. What was accepted as the norm and considered funny just a generation back is now considered horrible and not politically correct. Then when we move back another two generations to say world war II, you can see drastic changes there too.



Well, we need to see older pieces of fiction as a work of their times. I mean, one of my favorite authors is H.P. Lovecraft, but that doesn't mean I am ignoring his racism and how it influenced many of his stories ("The Horror at Red Hook" was probably the worst offender in this regard, but not the only one). Thus, when we base works of fiction on such older works, we need to be careful that we only select the "good stuff" and extrapolate from it to make it more suitable for a modern audience - for example, for the Cthulhu Mythos we should bear in mind that one of its implications is that different human cultures, ethnic groups, biases etc. are ultimately meaningless in the face of the Mythos, and that viewing White Male Anglo-Saxons as the pinnacle of human civilization (as Lovecraft did) is just as delusional as anything else humans do to elevate their self-importance in the universe.

Getting back to real world mythology - including Aztec mythology - there are an awful lot of stories involving rape (not to mention human sacrifice, the specialty of Aztec religion). We could just copy and paste all those stories as they are into our setting and treat them as "canon" (while replacing the names of the entities in question), but that would result in a lot of faiths that might not necessarily be fun to play for people with modern-day sensibilities (i.e. most players). But I think a better approach would be to take these stories as myths - and add a bunch of new ones, all contradictory, so that the "true nature" of the gods cannot be nailed down.

This is not actually unrealistic - real world myths likewise had lots of inherent contradictions. And what's more, this also makes for better gaming. It allows followers of a particular deity to have lots of arguments about their beliefs - and conflict always makes for good adventure material. And it also opens up a vast range of possible player character concepts, allowing the players to come up with new and interesting character concepts. Why not play a devout follower of Zaltec who eschews human sacrifice on the altar but views all those he kills on the field of battle as tribute to his god?

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  21:28:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, in the above I was trying to picture what kind of creatures to have as mortal avatars for the Maztican gods, but down in Katashaka as Nyama-Nummo. The one that kept stumping me was Tezca. The first thought was that since he was a fire god, make it a dragon... but I don't want to do that. So, then I was linking "lion with a fiery mane", but it seems "noble" plus that's a description of Nobanion (which btw, he'll have a nyama-nummo as well). So, I settled on a dimetrodon with a "flaming fin" as a back sail. However, it just hit me that a "dire" version of Pyrohydra would seem to fit better. Is there anything else that might fit even better?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  22:02:19  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, in the above I was trying to picture what kind of creatures to have as mortal avatars for the Maztican gods, but down in Katashaka as Nyama-Nummo. The one that kept stumping me was Tezca. The first thought was that since he was a fire god, make it a dragon... but I don't want to do that. So, then I was linking "lion with a fiery mane", but it seems "noble" plus that's a description of Nobanion (which btw, he'll have a nyama-nummo as well). So, I settled on a dimetrodon with a "flaming fin" as a back sail. However, it just hit me that a "dire" version of Pyrohydra would seem to fit better. Is there anything else that might fit even better?



It would require some creature creation of your own, but have you considered a xiuhcouatl? In Aztec myth, there is a flaming sword/serpent that goes by this name. In my next monster manual, I’ll have a normal sized one, but I think a much larger version could make an interesting Nyamma Nummo.

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Jürgen Hubert
Seeker

Germany
31 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  22:03:27  Show Profile  Visit Jürgen Hubert's Homepage Send Jürgen Hubert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, in the above I was trying to picture what kind of creatures to have as mortal avatars for the Maztican gods, but down in Katashaka as Nyama-Nummo. The one that kept stumping me was Tezca. The first thought was that since he was a fire god, make it a dragon... but I don't want to do that. So, then I was linking "lion with a fiery mane", but it seems "noble" plus that's a description of Nobanion (which btw, he'll have a nyama-nummo as well). So, I settled on a dimetrodon with a "flaming fin" as a back sail. However, it just hit me that a "dire" version of Pyrohydra would seem to fit better. Is there anything else that might fit even better?



Well, the name of Aztec deity of fire and the sun Huitzilopochtli can be translated as "Hummingbird('s) South/Left", so maybe you could go with a giant, fiery hummingbird.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huitzilopochtli

A fire-breathing hummingbird. And its fast-beating wings fan the flames.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7148 Posts

Posted - 26 Jan 2018 :  23:51:08  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, in the above I was trying to picture what kind of creatures to have as mortal avatars for the Maztican gods, but down in Katashaka as Nyama-Nummo. The one that kept stumping me was Tezca. The first thought was that since he was a fire god, make it a dragon... but I don't want to do that. So, then I was linking "lion with a fiery mane", but it seems "noble" plus that's a description of Nobanion (which btw, he'll have a nyama-nummo as well). So, I settled on a dimetrodon with a "flaming fin" as a back sail. However, it just hit me that a "dire" version of Pyrohydra would seem to fit better. Is there anything else that might fit even better?



It would require some creature creation of your own, but have you considered a xiuhcouatl? In Aztec myth, there is a flaming sword/serpent that goes by this name. In my next monster manual, I’ll have a normal sized one, but I think a much larger version could make an interesting Nyamma Nummo.



Hmmmm, thank you... yeah, this I could work with. So, a feather covered snake (thinking red and yellow feathers) with maybe a nimbus of flame and obsidian spines and maybe an obsidian spined tail

resembling this
https://kyoht.deviantart.com/art/Xiuhcoatl-496737304

speaking of which, this guy has some beautiful art that totally fits the region. Look at this serpent man, very Maztican.

https://kyoht.deviantart.com/art/Vision-Serpent-495763083

wow, I love this thunderbird too

https://kyoht.deviantart.com/art/Thunderbird-528283402

and this cat person

https://kyoht.deviantart.com/art/Cait-Sidhe-533194386

and a non-drow drider that I like
https://kyoht.deviantart.com/art/Ai-Apaec-488749139

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 26 Jan 2018 23:58:54
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Seethyr
Senior Scribe

USA
483 Posts

Posted - 27 Jan 2018 :  00:44:48  Show Profile  Visit Seethyr's Homepage Send Seethyr a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Seethyr

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

So, in the above I was trying to picture what kind of creatures to have as mortal avatars for the Maztican gods, but down in Katashaka as Nyama-Nummo. The one that kept stumping me was Tezca. The first thought was that since he was a fire god, make it a dragon... but I don't want to do that. So, then I was linking "lion with a fiery mane", but it seems "noble" plus that's a description of Nobanion (which btw, he'll have a nyama-nummo as well). So, I settled on a dimetrodon with a "flaming fin" as a back sail. However, it just hit me that a "dire" version of Pyrohydra would seem to fit better. Is there anything else that might fit even better?



It would require some creature creation of your own, but have you considered a xiuhcouatl? In Aztec myth, there is a flaming sword/serpent that goes by this name. In my next monster manual, I’ll have a normal sized one, but I think a much larger version could make an interesting Nyamma Nummo.



Hmmmm, thank you... yeah, this I could work with. So, a feather covered snake (thinking red and yellow feathers) with maybe a nimbus of flame and obsidian spines and maybe an obsidian spined tail

resembling this
https://kyoht.deviantart.com/art/Xiuhcoatl-496737304

speaking of which, this guy has some beautiful art that totally fits the region. Look at this serpent man, very Maztican.

https://kyoht.deviantart.com/art/Vision-Serpent-495763083

wow, I love this thunderbird too

https://kyoht.deviantart.com/art/Thunderbird-528283402

and this cat person

https://kyoht.deviantart.com/art/Cait-Sidhe-533194386

and a non-drow drider that I like
https://kyoht.deviantart.com/art/Ai-Apaec-488749139



Oooh that is some very inspirational artwork. Gave a few ideas for new creatures too, thank you!

How about this one...

https://feintbellt.deviantart.com/art/Urit-the-Flame-Serpent-logo-395005620

All "Maztica Alive" products can be found below, linked to the campaign guide.

TWC1 The Maztica Campaign Guide

Newest Addition: TWR1 The Sea Demon's Pearl

Also, please come join us on the Maztica Alive Yahoo Group:
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