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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 08:55:01
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After another recent revelation regarding Gargauth and the Illythiiri I am coming to the conclusion that there is something wrong with the Shaar, from a planar point of view at least.
Across the realms we have instances of tanar'ri and baatezu appearing at various intervals. We have the summoning of both in Ascalhorn, there is Eltab in Thay, and Narfell, have Orcus in Vaasa, Dagon in the Sea of Fallen Stars.
When it comes to the Shaar however it appears there is an unusual reoccurring theme of demon and devil infestation into the region.
Eltab was bound in the Sharawoods. Yeenoghu has a presence among the gnolls of Shaar (see the history of the fanged shield of Korort). The Shoon Imperium had to put down a significant infestation of fiends in the Shaar area (the 13 demon shields Halaster created were to help combat this infestation I think). Gargauth has two separate connections to the area, one in Peleveran circa 1018 DR (the ruins of which might contain a gate to Baator), and another far back in the past with the Illythiiri (a recent clue from THO).
The Citadel of Slime is an ancient temple used by the drow to worship Ghaunadaur who is believed to dwell in the abyss by some (I personally think he was the original inhabitant of the demonweb pits before lolth took over).
There are numerous Illythiiri temples to Lolth in the Shaar during the beginning of her worship (she also lives in the Abyss).
Wendonai was originally sent to Illythir to corrupt the Illythiir.
I think the ghostwise Halflings might have been originally corrupted by a fiend that i cant remember the name of.
In general the whole Shaar area seems riddled with rifts, portals, instabilities and tons of demons and devils.
Im guessing its down to either the Sarrukh of Okoth or the Illythiiri.
Anyone have any other thoughts?
The Shaar kind of reminds me of a western realms version of the Hordelands, so maybe they have lots of "spirit worship", but in this instance the "spirits" are actually demons and devils.
And a further thought. Gilgeam destroyed or drove off the remaining members of the Untheric pantheon (who were left unnamed) I wonder if any of them wandered south into the Shaar (since it was once under Unther's control and so they would already have a presence in the Shaar), perhaps the Shaar is disputed pantheonic territory rather than faerunian pantheonic territory.
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 11:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The Shoon Imperium had to put down a significant infestation of fiends in the Shaar area (the 13 demon shields Halaster created were to help combat this infestation I think).
The demon shields were created to fight demons and devils released by unscrupulous spellcasters in the Calishar Emirates (Amn and southern Sword Coast). I don't remember other demonic incidents of large proportions in the Shoon era.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I think the ghostwise Halflings might have been originally corrupted by a fiend that i cant remember the name of.
The Ghostwise were led to their downfall by Desva, a cleric of Malar.
The Shaar surely holds a lot of mysteries, amongs them (and of interest for this scroll) are:
- the Gate of Iron Fangs: the ruins of a city that was "already a crumbling ruin by the time the Arkaiuns migrated to this region [-946 DR]" (quoted from Shining South 3E page 97) in the Amtar forest (that way back then was definetly inside Ilythiir territory). A city that has a patrially functioning (now, so fully functional way back then) portal to the Abyss hidden in it's subterranean levels;
- the two way portal that connects the Council Hills with the Ashanath (and "several other points throughout Faerun", qouted from the same source on page 159) and that the people of Shandaular used to flee the Narfelli Nentyarch (who build it? And why build a portal to the Ashanath and several other places in the Council Hills, in the middle of nowhere?)
- the ruins of Peleveran and its Dark Pit of Maleficience that's connected to Baator via a portal;
- the freaking Landrise itself, right in the middle of a huge plain we get a 200-400 feet jump with cliff faces, why? What caused it? We know from Ed that the vast majority of natural geological active regions were conveniently placed outside of Faerun proper (the portion mapped in the various editions) so the Shaar isn't a region rocked by earthquakes.
- Llurth Dreier, the City of Ooze: the drow found ruins of an ancient city and countless artifacts of the faith of Ghaunadaur in Lake Dreier and this led to the religious war and the current Ghaunadan dominance. If we go with the common interpretation that Ghaunadaur plays the role of patron for Juiblex worshipers too we get another link to the Abyss; |
Edited by - Demzer on 17 Jul 2014 11:18:40 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 13:05:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
- the two way portal that connects the Council Hills with the Ashanath (and "several other points throughout Faerun", qouted from the same source on page 159) and that the people of Shandaular used to flee the Narfelli Nentyarch (who build it? And why build a portal to the Ashanath and several other places in the Council Hills, in the middle of nowhere?)
Ask the Ba'etith.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 16:33:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
You have a knack for being both exceedingly generous and very mean at the same time.
You know I and many others here will be wracking our brains, imaginations and sourcebooks for how and why the baetith would create such a portal network.
The how is easy: Magic. 
As for why, the most logical explanation is that the portal network lead to commonly-used areas for the group's members. Either cities, towns, or other living areas, and/or libraries and research areas. And that could mean these areas are still there... Maybe in above-ground ruins, but there are also potential underground areas that could survive in varying conditions. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 20:18:29
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Excellent stuff George as always.
Thankfully it doesn't contradict any ideas I have had on Narathmault.
Its unfortunate that despite the many, many mentions of the Ba'etith we have had down the years, we actually know little about this organisation.
I liked Markustay's idea that the portals between the Council Hills, Ashanath, and Narathmault are part of a portal network. It makes sense for a magic using organisation to set up portal networks (like the Twisted Rune is now doing). I wouldn't be surprised if their were more portals linked to the network that haven't been discovered or are malfunctioning or non-functioning now.
As for the Ba'etith themselves. They created the Nether Scrolls to catalogue the magical theory used by the many races of Toril, including the Sarrukh, Aearee, Batrachi, and Fey, and other primitive races (like humans).
It has been said hinted that while it was started by the Sarrukh, it contained members from at least three of the creator races (Aearee and Batrachi being the other two), and one possible addition to this is the presence of a third set of Nether Scrolls.
So either the Ba'etith survived the destruction of the various creator races and members of each race survived the destruction of their own race to recruit members of the next dominant race of Toril.
Or the Ba'etith died and was recreated with each new race dominating Toril when it discovered ruined outposts and writings of that organisation.
I like the first scenario the best, but scenario two is the most likely.
Either way, the portals are unlikely to lead to major population centres (they do now but that probably wasn't their original purpose), it is more likely to lead to secret outposts created for research and spying purposes (the unapproachable east definitely has a very strong fey influence so maybe they were researching the fey - something I have mused on before extensively).
One rather bizarre thought that I had is what if the Ba'etith had survived through the millennia into the age of humanity. Then it occurred to me that it would most likely form the foundation of the church of Mystryl (which then becomes the church of Mystra).
Just a random musing but wouldn't it be weird if in some long forgotten vault there was a sarrukh, batrachi, or aearee lich working away cataloguing all newly created spells into the third set of Nether scrolls. Then of course I realised this would have to be located in Netheril where I think the organised church began. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2014 : 07:30:09
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Haven't posted there in a long while and think that most of the stuff was Impiltur musings that have been more than superceded here at the 'Keep.
I've long had a few ideas kicking around re the Ba'etith, the main one being that they were the fringe dwellers of their respective racial groupings (i.e. they were originally renegade sarrukh who twigged that as a race they would not dominate Faerun forever and sought to leave something significant behind in terms of their mastery and knowledge of magic).
I consider that the Ba'etith do live on but not in any real, corporeal sense, but rather as sentient aspects of magic. Many would be what are termed "living spells" now, others are like place spirits, while still others are part of still-existing magic (ancient magical wards in the main). By far the majority in my Realms exist within the Nether Scrolls, giving those 'items' form and function and translating them into a conduit to their magical legacy that did not exist when the "Nether Scrolls" were first formed. Basically, I see the Nether Scrolls as the last great work of the Ba'etith but prior to the advent of the Age of Dragons, that repository of lore did not exist in its current form.
The Golden Skins of the World Sepent ... it has a catchy sound doesn't it? In my Realms, the Ba'etith created a portal network they called the World Serpent (because it encompassed all and had no beginning or end after millenia of crafting as well as giving them a layer of secrecy as to what they had created - with others thinking they were referring to the actual World Serpent) that was in fact the repository of their lore. In other words, the lore was accessed by travelling through portals to other wheres (and whens ...) where transformed former sarrukh, batrachi and aearee could be accessed much like current vestiges (except they held all the cards as to what lore they imparted and on what terms). It was the last of these "vestiges" that were then transformed in a great ritual into what we now know as the Nether Scrolls - a more, basic, unsophisticated means of imparting their lore, but one more tailored to the lower races not used to dealing with the "raw stuff of magic". Other "vestiges" had taken different forms prior to that and exist to this day within the Realms in various forms as noted above.
The portal network remained however and the locations within it can be seen to tally with the fringes of the various Creator Race territories, reflecting the fact that they were essentially a secretive cabal of like-minded creatures prepared to share magical knowledge and might when their racial counterparts jealously guarded and hoarded what magic they had.
Well, that's my take on it all. Everyone's mileage will vary.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 18 Jul 2014 07:31:09 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2014 : 17:17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
I found a Perilous Gateways article ...
Interesting find, which article is that? I have (many of) the Perilous Gateways saved on my PC but i can't find a portal matching your description. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 01:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Haven't posted there in a long while and think that most of the stuff was Impiltur musings that have been more than superceded here at the 'Keep.
I've long had a few ideas kicking around re the Ba'etith, the main one being that they were the fringe dwellers of their respective racial groupings (i.e. they were originally renegade sarrukh who twigged that as a race they would not dominate Faerun forever and sought to leave something significant behind in terms of their mastery and knowledge of magic).
I consider that the Ba'etith do live on but not in any real, corporeal sense, but rather as sentient aspects of magic. Many would be what are termed "living spells" now, others are like place spirits, while still others are part of still-existing magic (ancient magical wards in the main). By far the majority in my Realms exist within the Nether Scrolls, giving those 'items' form and function and translating them into a conduit to their magical legacy that did not exist when the "Nether Scrolls" were first formed. Basically, I see the Nether Scrolls as the last great work of the Ba'etith but prior to the advent of the Age of Dragons, that repository of lore did not exist in its current form.
The Golden Skins of the World Sepent ... it has a catchy sound doesn't it? In my Realms, the Ba'etith created a portal network they called the World Serpent (because it encompassed all and had no beginning or end after millenia of crafting as well as giving them a layer of secrecy as to what they had created - with others thinking they were referring to the actual World Serpent) that was in fact the repository of their lore. In other words, the lore was accessed by travelling through portals to other wheres (and whens ...) where transformed former sarrukh, batrachi and aearee could be accessed much like current vestiges (except they held all the cards as to what lore they imparted and on what terms). It was the last of these "vestiges" that were then transformed in a great ritual into what we now know as the Nether Scrolls - a more, basic, unsophisticated means of imparting their lore, but one more tailored to the lower races not used to dealing with the "raw stuff of magic". Other "vestiges" had taken different forms prior to that and exist to this day within the Realms in various forms as noted above.
The portal network remained however and the locations within it can be seen to tally with the fringes of the various Creator Race territories, reflecting the fact that they were essentially a secretive cabal of like-minded creatures prepared to share magical knowledge and might when their racial counterparts jealously guarded and hoarded what magic they had.
Well, that's my take on it all. Everyone's mileage will vary.
-- George Krashos
Krash, I like this idea of the ba'etith living on in the form of vestiges. I like the idea more in terms of how vestiges are presented in Secrets of Pact Magic than the "entrapped elsewhere".... i.e. they're spirits that you can channel. Development of their individual personalities/histories could be very interesting. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 10:08:10
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Its the Portals of the Written Word Part III
Got it, thanks!
I had saved it but didn't check it yesterday, Written Word portals didn't sound Ilythiiri or dwarven enough.
I have just one minor problem with the Ilythiiri but that may be because i'm ignorant about most things before the Age of Humanity: the Ilythiiri where part of the first batch of sylvan (brown and green i suppose) elves come from Faerie to Faerun to stop the dragons and they worshiped the Fey Courts, not the Seldarine. How did they end up on Araunshee's side so badly?
I think they had forsaken their fey affiliations probably because the flighty nature of the Fey Courts wasn't reliable enough to trust your life on it while battling dragons, and then the Ilythiiri started forging alliances and pacts with dragons. So maybe Araunshee just snatched a godless lot from the table and tried to shape it into her personal army? If this was her intent then Corellon handed them over to her without seconds thoughts, probably because they weren't part of his Seldarine-worshiping bunch and so he deemed them inferior. That would explain why the Vyshaans were left free to massacre other elves while the Ilythiiri were godly-smacked: the former were misbehaving Seldarine-kissers while the latter were barbaric Fey-huggers (that probably had forsaken the Fey too and were just a godless bunch). |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 10:52:16
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Araushnee was late in the piece for the Ilythiiri. Their first dark god was Ghaunadaur, but yes, you have the right of it re Corellon's outlook. They were already lost to him, irredeemable and no longer his worshippers.
Also, I'm not sure where you get the "elves came from Faerie to Faerun to stop the dragons" bit. To my knowledge, there's never been an in print explanation for why the first green elves travelled to Faerun. Or from where (i.e. not necessarily from Faerie). Similarly, I don't think the Ilythiiri forged pacts with dragons; they enslaved them.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 11:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Also, I'm not sure where you get the "elves came from Faerie to Faerun to stop the dragons" bit. To my knowledge, there's never been an in print explanation for why the first green elves travelled to Faerun. Or from where (i.e. not necessarily from Faerie). Similarly, I don't think the Ilythiiri forged pacts with dragons; they enslaved them.
Maybe i'm reading too much into it but i'm basing those assumptions on the c. -27000 DR entry of the Grand History of the Realms on page 8 were it's said:"Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine that were unknown at this time)."
And later in the same entry "... one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to carve out a small kingdom in the south."
EDIT: eh ... the timeline hasn't yet advanced to 27000 DR, sorry! |
Edited by - Demzer on 19 Jul 2014 13:37:25 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 12:59:58
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| That just means that the fey were anti-dragon. As I understand it, the elves were leaving Faerie because their high mages had blown up their homeland. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 13:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
That just means that the fey were anti-dragon. As I understand it, the elves were leaving Faerie because their high mages had blown up their homeland.
Uhm nope, i think that's later. That's the second wave, of moon and sun elves, escaping Tintageer in the c. -25400 DR entry of the GHotR.
Also, if the Fey sent the elves to oppose dragon rule, i thought it was logical to assume that the elves were supposed to be hostile or unfriendly to dragons, otherwise why would the Fey send them "to undermine dragon rule"? |
Edited by - Demzer on 19 Jul 2014 13:39:22 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 14:19:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
That just means that the fey were anti-dragon. As I understand it, the elves were leaving Faerie because their high mages had blown up their homeland.
Uhm nope, i think that's later. That's the second wave, of moon and sun elves, escaping Tintageer in the c. -25400 DR entry of the GHotR.
Also, if the Fey sent the elves to oppose dragon rule, i thought it was logical to assume that the elves were supposed to be hostile or unfriendly to dragons, otherwise why would the Fey send them "to undermine dragon rule"?
Well... It doesn't say the elves were sent to Toril, it says they were allowed to immigrate to there. There is quite a difference between those two things. One is kicking in the door with the specific intent of going inside, the other is casually wandering thru an already open door.
Secondly, direct opposition is not necessary to undermine rule. Simply bringing in another group upsets the status quo. Sure, it doesn't swing things against the dragons, but it upsets their status quo, and sets up things so that at some future point, elves could actively oppose dragons. It doesn't force a draconic/elven conflict, but it creates the potential for one. And even if it never happens, dragons have to be wary of it, which takes their attention and strength away from other areas -- undermining their rule in those areas. The elven presence could also motivate/inspire other groups, who would more actively oppose dragons.
And actually, it doesn't even say that drawing elves to Toril was a goal -- the fae opened multiple gates, assumably to multiple places, which could let anyone in. The fae opened those gates, and the elves took advantage of it -- but anyone else could have done the same, and again undermined draconic rule by upsetting the status quo. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Jul 2014 14:21:56 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2014 : 14:59:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well... It doesn't say the elves were sent to Toril, it says they were allowed to immigrate to there. There is quite a difference between those two things. One is kicking in the door with the specific intent of going inside, the other is casually wandering thru an already open door.
Secondly, direct opposition is not necessary to undermine rule. Simply bringing in another group upsets the status quo. Sure, it doesn't swing things against the dragons, but it upsets their status quo, and sets up things so that at some future point, elves could actively oppose dragons. It doesn't force a draconic/elven conflict, but it creates the potential for one. And even if it never happens, dragons have to be wary of it, which takes their attention and strength away from other areas -- undermining their rule in those areas. The elven presence could also motivate/inspire other groups, who would more actively oppose dragons.
And actually, it doesn't even say that drawing elves to Toril was a goal -- the fae opened multiple gates, assumably to multiple places, which could let anyone in. The fae opened those gates, and the elves took advantage of it -- but anyone else could have done the same, and again undermined draconic rule by upsetting the status quo.
Uhm, yeah. That makes sense and it even strikes me as more Fey-ish, to just open gates and see what happens by allowing race(s) with potential to enter dragon dominated territories, without any other more contrived plans. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2014 : 23:58:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Also, I'm not sure where you get the "elves came from Faerie to Faerun to stop the dragons" bit. To my knowledge, there's never been an in print explanation for why the first green elves travelled to Faerun. Or from where (i.e. not necessarily from Faerie). Similarly, I don't think the Ilythiiri forged pacts with dragons; they enslaved them.
Maybe i'm reading too much into it but i'm basing those assumptions on the c. -27000 DR entry of the Grand History of the Realms on page 8 were it's said:"Continuing their work to undermine dragon rule the Fey open new gates allowing the first elves to immigrate to Toril. These primitive green elves worship the Faerie gods (not the Seldarine that were unknown at this time)."
And later in the same entry "... one group known as the Ilythiiri negotiates with the dragons and begins to carve out a small kingdom in the south."
EDIT: eh ... the timeline hasn't yet advanced to 27000 DR, sorry!
While initially I read it exactly as you do... there could be some other interpretations. Maybe the fey opened the portals to undermine dragon rule. How did opening the portals undermine dragon rule? Maybe it allowed people a bolt hole to escape to faerie through? Maybe it allowed them a means to venture into the world and steal from the dragons (and by THEY, I don't necessarily mean elves)? The opening of the portals allowed green elves to migrate to Toril. It could very well be that these green elves were being oppressed (by whom could make a good story) on Faerie and they came here to flee that oppression. Or they may very well have accidentally found themselves crossing between worlds and not knowing how to get back.
However, I agree, it would seem that the Ilythiiri did start working with dragons to at least some degree (or at least agree to not get in each other's ways). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Shaar
