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rodrigoalcanza
Seeker
Brazil
67 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 19:12:09
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Hello!
The Chosen of Mystra during the 1300s DR (First, Second and Third Edition) were known as Chosen of Mystra (or another name) by the general population? I mean they are known as heroes, sages, politicians, but his special status with Mystra is common knowledge?
Ordinary people know that they are Chosen of Mystra? And the individuals as more knowledge, as wise and spellcastars?
And the Church of Mystra ... know of the existence of these Chosen? Those chosen would then have some power within the hierarchy of the Faith of Mystra?
Finally, the main villains, usually enemies of the Chosen of Mystra, know this special status with Mystra?
Thanks and sorry for my english!
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 19:55:58
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Common knowledge? No. But certain learned individiuals would know that it's possible to be a Chosen of Mystra and may successfully deduce who such people might be even if they don't have hard proof. This would include some spell casters, sages, Harpers, religious and political leaders...but not all of them .
I would imagine they hold power within the chuch hierarchy of Mystra and Azuth only to the extent that they've cultivated such power individually or in special cases where the gods have sent dream-visions or otherwise given marching orders to their clergy. But for the most part I would say their influence is only moderately above the average spell caster who seeks something from the church.
Some of the main villians would know (or at least suspect). Manshoon, Larloch, Halaster, Tam, the Twisted Rune likely all know of the more well-known Chosen (the Sisters, El and Khelben), otherwise they would be just as in the dark as most. That's not an exhaustive list, btw. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2014 : 20:31:13
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Many of the chosen are well known and famous for being so, elminster and the seven sisters etc. There are likely just as many chosen that are unknown.
The church and chosen have for the most remained independant from each other. The church tending to the masses and the chosen working directly for mystra.That's not to say they haven't worked together in the past though. I guess chosen would command great respect from the church, given that they are so close to mystra. |
Edited by - Arcanus on 14 Jul 2014 20:32:48 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 01:30:16
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At first I believe that Ed had their status as secret. TSR/WotC brought the term and their status more into the open.
The best example of how this works in the "real" Realms is in Ed's "Temptation of Elminster" novel when Elminster visits a Mystran temple, is ignored by the mages/sages there and goes unrecognised, despite them talking previously about him as the deity's special servant. There is no mass media in Faerun don't forget. Even if people knew of Elminster, the best idea of what he looked like would come from third to fifteenth-hand verbal descriptions.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 01:39:07
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| "There is no way that guy is Elminster. He's got a long scruffy beard, a pointed had, and old tattered robes. He looks way too much like he's trying too hard." |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 13:09:22
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
"There is no way that guy is Elminster. He's got a long scruffy beard, a pointed had, and old tattered robes. He looks way too much like he's trying too hard."
"He's not tall enought either..." |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 14:04:48
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
At first I believe that Ed had their status as secret. TSR/WotC brought the term and their status more into the open.
The best example of how this works in the "real" Realms is in Ed's "Temptation of Elminster" novel when Elminster visits a Mystran temple, is ignored by the mages/sages there and goes unrecognised, despite them talking previously about him as the deity's special servant. There is no mass media in Faerun don't forget. Even if people knew of Elminster, the best idea of what he looked like would come from third to fifteenth-hand verbal descriptions.
-- George Krashos
I agree with that view for the general public and low ranking clergy but the higher ranked clerics and heads of the order would surely have an idea of the truth about the chosen. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 14:37:01
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Every arcane spellcaster or creature attuned to the Weave knows when a new Magister comes into the office; when someone becomes a Chosen of Mystra; when a Chosen of Mystra dies and whenever a great change in the power or state of a god associated with magic changes.
Clergy of Mystra, Azuth and Savras are likely to know who the newly appointed Magister is because that Magister's personal sigil is displayed prominently in all temples of those faiths for about 20 minutes after they're picked but no such process (to my knowledge) occurs for Chosen. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 15 Jul 2014 14:37:39 |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 15:28:10
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Rodrigo, you might want to check out the sourcebook "The Seven Sisters".
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/The_Seven_Sisters_(sourcebook)
The reason you are getting so many different opinions on this topic is that Ed Greenwood has retconned most of the material in this book; he blamed the editor, Julia Martin, for deleting and adding significant portions of the text. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 17:39:43
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Why would high level clerics know. Its not like they have a direct link with their god. She is not going to communicate all her plans to them directly just because they are 10th level plus.
Unless Mystra has personally asked a priest to assist one of the chosen in their tasks (i dont know how often that occurs in the novels but i bet it is seldom), then why would they ever know who the chosen are or that they exist, and that is assuming Mystra told that cleric he was aiding a chosen.
I work for a large multinational company but i couldnt tell you who the Financial Director's favourite employee is. In fact i have never even met or spoken to the Financial Director (i couldnt even pick him out of a crowd and there are photos of him everywhere that i ignore). Yes i might be near the bottom of the chain but the head of UK operations has only ever met the financial director once and i bet he doesnt know who his favourite employee is either.
Some chosen are famous for being chosen, plain and simple. Books are written about them, songs are sung about them. They are usually legendary figures of history, achieving great deeds and aquiring great power. Living for thousands of years also sets tongues wagging.
Also some of the highest ranking clerics do have a direct link to their god. Adon, former patron of mystra's church used to have a good old natter to her avatar.
Can you say the same for your financial director?
Given the fame they have then it's pretty certain that some in the church will know of some chosen. |
Edited by - Arcanus on 15 Jul 2014 17:42:18 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2014 : 18:13:46
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Excuse me?
Thorn, where did you hear this?
"The reason you are getting so many different opinions on this topic is that Ed Greenwood has retconned most of the material in this book; he blamed the editor, Julia Martin, for deleting and adding significant portions of the text."
As one of Ed's longtime players, I haven't seen any signs of Ed retconning ANYTHING in the book, nor do I recall him blaming Julia for anything, either.
So...where did you get this impression from?
conditional love,
THO |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 03:34:03
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THO, you told me, posting under the username Brace Cormaeril, about the retcons and editor deletions/additions.
Also,THO, are you going to GenCon wearing a scandalous outfit? |
Edited by - Thorn Illance on 16 Jul 2014 03:35:57 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 18:54:13
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I'm sorry, Thorn Illance, but I have never posted under the name Brace Cormaeril.
Nor have I ever told you or anyone about Ed doing any retcons related to that sourcebook, nor about Julia Martin's editing in regards to that book.
If scribes cannot tell truth, all of their contributions here at the Keep become suspect.
An apology would be appreciated.
THO |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 19:04:58
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He meant, my Lady, that he was posting under the name Brace Cormaeril. It's one of the many names he has been banned under.
I'm noting this simply for clarification, and not as any sort of defense for his often deplorable antics. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Jul 2014 19:06:11 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 19:17:28
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I suspected as much, beloved Wooly, but the grammar in his post clearly indicates the other meaning. I was challenging it because clear, simple posts that aren't true, but aren't challenged or taken down, regrettably often get found and requoted by others, later, as "proof" of something.
Ed hasn't retconned anything in The Seven Sisters. TSR didn't use the "Elminster's Doom" title that appears in some of the fiction snippet attributions, and later made other changes, but I don't see anything much in that sourcebook's lore that was actually retconned.
Nor do I recall Ed ever saying, or my ever posting, anything about Julia Martin making many changes, as Thorn/Brace stated.
It's a pity whenever, for any reason, untruths get spread or false or misleading impressions created. I'd like debate here at the Keep to stay healthy, as it were.
love,
THO |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2014 : 22:54:09
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Yes, my grammar is poor. I'm sorry you're having difficulty remembering your statements on this topic.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 00:18:31
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| Perhaps, instead of oblique accusations of lying, you could provide quotes and links to where these statements were made? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 02:26:21
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| Ed can retcon all he wants Rupert, anything Ed says over-writes existing canon, this well known amongst the Scribes of Candlekeep. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 02:45:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
Ed can retcon all he wants Rupert, anything Ed says over-writes existing canon, this well known amongst the Scribes of Candlekeep.
Incorrect. Ed can't simply declare something that's already published to be non-canon.
What he can do (and in fact all designers or authors can do) is revise or alter canon via a new novel or sourcebook.
If you don't have a link to the post that confirms your version of events, you're best off by deleting your post. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 17 Jul 2014 02:46:23 |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 03:28:07
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No, Mr. Miscellany. Anything Ed says is canon.
Anyone with Google can find Ed/THO's commentary on editors at TSR/WotC.
It's too bad that such a great, lore-rich book like "The Seven Sisters" gets hit with the retcon hammer as hard as it does. It's one of my favorite sourcebooks. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 03:48:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
No, Mr. Miscellany. Anything Ed says is canon.
You seem to be taking the idea of Ed talking about the Realms out of context.
In terms of the canon/published Realms, what Ed has to say about the Realms is not canon if his statement is contradicted by an already existing source of Realmslore.
In my experience Ed has been very careful not to step on anyone’s toes or get in the way of published works. That is, he’s avoided situations where what he’d already established for the home Realms was due to be overwritten by someone working on soon to be published Realms project of their own.
Regardless, if Ed were to write, “Cormyr does not exist” then that wouldn’t be canon. It just does not work that way.
quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
Anyone with Google can find Ed/THO's commentary on editors at TSR/WotC.
Yes, I know. And given that many of us are familiar with this commentary, we’re all wondering where your information comes from.
While it’s likely you may have drawn a conclusion from the commentary that led you to make your first statement in this thread, it does not follow that your conclusion is true.
Thus, you need to find the link or links and post them.
And not, despite what you might think, to prove that you are correct. Rather, so that one or more of us can show you exactly where and what it is you’ve interpreted incorrectly.
Given your mistaken view of the power (if that’s the right word) of Ed’s commentary over canon, I’m wagering you’re reading statements too literally. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 04:42:51
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| How about, instead of changing the topic, you provide proof of your assertion that the material in The Seven Sisters has been retconned? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 04:44:24
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It’s Jeremy, not Apex.
According to your logic (and borrowing from my prior example), this is how the agreement made between Ed and TSR works. If Ed were to say that Cormyr does not exist in the Realms, then all published works that detail Cormyr would be invalidated (in whole or in part, depending on the amount of space covering Cormyr), until WotC publishes something that says Cormyr exists and all the prior lore is again valid.
Can you say “infinite loop”? So can I.
Nothing in THO's post that you linked to proves that Ed can overwrite already established canon Realmslore, in whole or in part, by the simple utterance of a few words out loud or through a post here on Candlekeep.
Once something is published, its set until something else comes along and overwrites it.
Keep in mind that the post in the scroll you linked to is a summary of the agreement made between TSR and ED; it doesn’t spell it out in full.
Again, it seems to me that you’re reading THOs post literally and not considering context or the impractical nature of your conclusion.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Thorn Illance
Seeker
53 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 04:59:57
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| Wooly, I'm not going to play another round of down is up and up is down with you. Apologetics is one thing, but you take it way too far. |
Edited by - Thorn Illance on 17 Jul 2014 05:21:34 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 05:15:01
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So you're going to make a statement, argue that you're right and insult the person you claim gave you the info, and then dodge the original statement by arguing a tangent. Gotcha.
To paraphrase you: Classic Brace! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 05:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Thorn Illance
(snip) but you take it way too far.
In my experience that is true in some instances, but this doesn't change the fact that you've attributed statements to others that they have since denied making.
Safeguarding and shepherding correct information about the Realms and how it works (in-world and out) is important. It's one of the things this website does best.
Additionally, THO has a ton of cred on this website.
You have zero.
Therefore it's incumbent on you to back your claims up with proof, or withdraw them absent that proof.
I've actually been in your shoes before on just something like this. In my bitter experience, being obstinate for the sake of being obstinate is the wrong choice to make.
Which is to say that doing what's right is more important than being right, no matter how strongly you believe your claims are true. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 17 Jul 2014 05:18:48 |
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Portella
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
247 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2014 : 17:46:55
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This thread and the way is going made me think does anyone knows if there is any known chosen of the the dark lord cyric god of lies, strife and deceit?
I know chosens aren't a old concept but the last few years have it spread like wild fire so do we have a known one or more ?
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Purple you say?!
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Edited by - Portella on 17 Jul 2014 17:47:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Chosen of Mystra
