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VikingLegion
Senior Scribe
USA
483 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Mar 2016 : 03:53:34
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The name of this thread should've been "Are Cannons Canon?"
Personally I never allowed anything more technologically advanced than a crossbow, simply because I become less interested in real world history with the advent of firearms - which leads to the decline in armour, castles, all the cool things I like best about medieval based settings - both fantastical and historical.
In an FR/Planescape blended campaign I once ran the players commandeered a Ship of Chaos:
http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Ship_of_Chaos
and had an amazing time sailing through the Lower Planes, wreaking havoc. I upgraded the ballista on the ship (which I found mundane all things considered) to cannon-like tubes tipped with beholder eyes that shot various rays from them. Each shot drained from an "energy pool" that powered the entire ship, so the players had to uses these special attacks judiciously.
Anyway, do whatever you and your players will find more fun. If that's a more Pirates of the Carribean feel, go full bore gunpowder. If you dig flying ships comprised of smashed together Abyssal larvae that shoot disintegration beams, go for it. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2016 : 04:23:24
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| A single wizard can take out a Star Destroyer...all I'm going to say on the matter. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2016 : 11:07:06
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| Cannons exist, but are quite rare, just like other fire weapons. At least in 2e times, only Thay have a fleet with a considerable ammount of these weapons, even because smoke powder was magical (and I recall reading somewhere that the physics if the Realms prevented the functioning of the "ordinary" - or alchemical - gunpowder). This technology made them even more terrible. Outside of Thay, mostly naval combat would involve ramming, archers, crossbowmen, boarding for personal combat, spellcasters, and sometimes ballistae and catapults. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 14 Mar 2016 16:23:51 |
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BandofMisfits
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2016 : 12:05:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
A single wizard can take out a Star Destroyer...all I'm going to say on the matter.
Yes, Meteor Swarm could destroy a wooden sailing ship. No argument there.
That being said, how many wizards are there in The Realms that can cast a 9th level spell (and know Meteor Swarm)? A handful?
It's not like there's a 17th+ level wizard on every street corner just waiting to be conscripted into the royal navy or to be hired (at a reasonable rate, of course) to escort a merchant ship loaded with wheat. Because they have nothing better to do.
Can a wizard destroy a single ship (not a fleet) from a mile away? Yes, a very very few. So is it practical to say, "Just put a few mages on a ship, that's better than cannons!" No. *Most* D&D spell ranges are measured in tens (sometimes hundreds) of feet, and historic cannon ranges are measured in thousands of feet (sometimes miles).
To be clear, I think that bringing cannons into your campaign could be detrimental for precisely this reason. D&D plays best at the character level, so coming alongside another ship and boarding it is the most fun way to play, for most groups. That's not to say there aren't systems out there to simulate ship to ship combat - check Wargames Vault - it's just that the group would have to learn a new system for when your ship shoots another ship. Because D&D doesn't do that well.
Here's a sample of well reviewed systems for ship to ship combat. Some are easier to learn than others:
Wooden Ships and Iron Men (out of print, so you can find the PDF for free on the Hasbro website)
Heart of Oak
It Is Warm Work
Galleys and Galleons
You can also troll The Miniatures Page (aka, TMP) forums for more suggestions. I've seen "Recommended Age of Sail Wargames" discussed numerous times. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2394 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2016 : 13:39:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ilmarinnen
Bombards utilised in Thayan ships and fortresses have weight of 500pounds, rate of fire 10 rpm, utilise telekinesis spell to push the cannonball or bomb and do not require additional supplies.
So, it's... a beefed-up version of Netherpelter? 
More evidence as to where they got their best stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by BandofMisfits
Historically speaking, the upper range of a 36-pounder long gun was 3,700 meters, with a practical range of 650 meters. So between 2,000 and 12,000 feet.
What's the range of that fireball your mage is about to cast?
I get that "smoke powder" isn't reliable or widely available in The Realms, but the argument that "a mage would be more effective anyways" doesn't really track.
Yup, at naval scale most spells are point-blank range, and most of the rest are still short-ranged, with but a few exceptions.
Summons can be much nastier, however. All it takes to bring !!FUN!! on entire ship is a single fire mephit or firebat reaching the sails without getting shot down, and many critters who aren't that destructive on their own still can divebomb the deck with fire pots or stink pots, pull the wrong ropes and whatnot.
quote:
(P.S. Every shipbuilder worth his salt is going to have a permanent Dimensional Lock or Forbiddance cast on ships they build. Only prudent.)
It's more Mystaran level of munchkinism running wild with enchantments.
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
If only there were a system that allowed seamless transition or even better seamless integration of rules involving people, monsters, mounts, technology, and vehicles of all sizes. In my part time I'm trying to design such a system because it is annoying having to try and link disparate systems with varying effectiveness.
Alternity? Assuming you don't like GURPS either. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 14 Mar 2016 13:40:33 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2016 : 14:53:13
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| This thread brings back some fond memories of battling corsairs in the Land of Fate. Good times. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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BandofMisfits
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2016 : 17:44:59
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quote:
Yup, at naval scale most spells are point-blank range, and most of the rest are still short-ranged, with but a few exceptions.
Summons can be much nastier, however. All it takes to bring !!FUN!! on entire ship is a single fire mephit or firebat reaching the sails without getting shot down, and many critters who aren't that destructive on their own still can divebomb the deck with fire pots or stink pots, pull the wrong ropes and whatnot.
I did think of summons, and they could be put to good effect - even water elementals - although the Forbiddance spell does provide for damaging such a creature.
Though I'm not sure I'd loose a fire mephit on a ship I was hoping to board or plunder later... |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2016 : 18:51:39
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| Water and air elementals, marid and djinn, the list of entertaining summons for a naval battle is endless. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2394 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2016 : 23:14:14
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Well alternity was based on 3e if I remember correctly which was less then seamless with its normal combat rules. I'm looking for a system that allows everything to operate under the same rule set with no special rules or separate systems for people and vehicles or magic and melee, etc.
Based on lolwut? It uses dice stepping, for one.
There are some free books on alternityrpg.net - if you want a scalable system, look at the basics in fastplays, then grab Warships for the extreme example of damage scaling. It uses the same approach and tables consistently all the way from mini-truck size to supertanker size. It's beautiful.
Simple version: target has 3 main damage tracks from scratch to lethal, weapons has 3 damage rolls (used for different Degree Of Success categories) that are usually fall on 2 different tracks for appropriately sized targets. If the target's size category goes 1 step up, all damage a weapon does downgrades by 1 step, and vice versa.
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Star Wars weg is the closest I've come to seeing such a system but I want a d20 version
So, uh, do you want scalable or d20?.. Because d20 generally isn't, unless you go beyond "everything is d6" and make a wargame out of it.
Besides, is there any way to make d20 anything that won't be either horrendously clunky, MUD-grade muchkinistic or pre-scripted in details?
After all, once you completely overhaul the ugliest parts (such as separate feat progression and linear skill ranks), it's not d20 anymore, is it?.. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 08:14:43
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Wizard doesn't have to be able to cast Meteor Swarm...that likely wouldn't scratch a Star Destroyer. However, appearing on the Bridge while Improved Invisible and then taking the crew out is something even a 9th level wizard can do.
Magic, normally, transcends technology that you can comprehend...so yes, even low level wizards can wreck havoc nearly at their whim. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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BandofMisfits
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 11:47:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Wizard doesn't have to be able to cast Meteor Swarm...that likely wouldn't scratch a Star Destroyer. However, appearing on the Bridge while Improved Invisible and then taking the crew out is something even a 9th level wizard can do.
Magic, normally, transcends technology that you can comprehend...so yes, even low level wizards can wreck havoc nearly at their whim.
I guess I'm not seeing how he'd get past the Dimensional lock/Forbiddance |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 12:32:43
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| Since there are relatively few Star Destroyers in the Realms, I think they can safely be left out of discussions of naval combat in the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 13:58:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Since there are relatively few Star Destroyers in the Realms, I think they can safely be left out of discussions of naval combat in the Realms.
IIRC the last one was spotted docking in Lantan. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 18:33:05
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quote:
Originally posted by BandofMisfits
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Wizard doesn't have to be able to cast Meteor Swarm...that likely wouldn't scratch a Star Destroyer. However, appearing on the Bridge while Improved Invisible and then taking the crew out is something even a 9th level wizard can do.
Magic, normally, transcends technology that you can comprehend...so yes, even low level wizards can wreck havoc nearly at their whim.
I guess I'm not seeing how he'd get past the Dimensional lock/Forbiddance
Why does he have to get by a spell? If your assertion is that any ship worth its salt would have these protections, the wizard need only appear near the ship. The area of effect of both of these spells is limited.
Even True Seeing has a limited range when compared to assault from a distance...no matter the edition of the game.
Hells, even if the ship were lightning/fire-proof and resistant to being tossed around by winds (and now we are approaching significant cost to the manufacture of these magical ships) there are still so many spells available in the Necromantic, Summoning and so forth that could topple them that really the best chance any ship has in defense is...well...
Honestly, there is no "sure" method of defending anything.
Once magic enters the equation of a battle, anything is possible. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2016 : 18:46:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Since there are relatively few Star Destroyers in the Realms, I think they can safely be left out of discussions of naval combat in the Realms.
Allow me to introduce you to:
Battle Cruiser
The battle cruiser is the most formidable space vessel the Overseer produces, and the largest attack construct overall. Each battle cruiser serves as the residence of a Primary Director.
Primary Director
AC: 8 Hit Dice: 3
Intelligence: 22 Hit Points: 12
XP Value: 2,000/1,000 + special
Primary Directors make their homes on battle cruisers and are subordinate to Master Programmers. They command a single battle fleet, which typically consists of one battle cruiser and 12 light cruisers. Each Primary Director is armed with one poisonous gas canister, one infectious gas canister, and one stun field generator as a last line of defense.
From Tales of the Comet, which in my Forgotten Realms happens in the area of the Moonsea. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2016 : 07:11:00
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
Taking area of effect spells into account would add to the oar-driven galley as the norm, as pretty much every area of effect spell is stopped by walls. Having a two, three, or more decked galley allows the crew to be protected from spells as there would be no line of effect or sight for an enemy wizard. Alternately, if a nation was able to develop even basic cannon the need for protection from magical attacks could develop something similar to the Korean turtle ships.
One thing I wonder about, are there enough large nations in the Realms willing and able to invest in a large navy? Ships tend to be pretty expensive to build, develop, and maintain, and the Realms always seemed to me to be a world with many more city states and smaller nations than large ones. I could see Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan in the south (particularly Tethyr with it's massive forests) having the manpower, wealth, and desire to build large navies, and Cormyr and Sembia on the Sea of Fallen Stars, but when you're talking about the north the potential sea powers are city-states like Baldur's Gate, Luskan, Neverwinter, and Waterdeep.
Amn most definitely has a vested interest in maintaining a large and powerful navy, since they are described as being a colonial power…. they colonize far-away continents like Maztica! Amn's behavior is very analogous to medieval Spain, when there were numerous Spanish colonies/outposts in the New World.
And I agree, the large coastal city-states like Baldur's Gate and Waterdeep are prosperous mercantile cities on the (Sword) Coast. There is no excuse for them to have pathetic weakling navies. At the very least, they have enough "warships" that can protect and escort their galleons and merchant ships. But that does not necessarily mean that they possess huge naval armadas that are capable of invading enemy nations. At the very least, they have enough combat ships (e.g. frigates) that can defend their merchantmen against pirates, etc.
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2016 : 13:58:40
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| Anyone interested in this topic should read The Reaver. It's completely focused on pirates, the Sea of Fallen Stars, Umberlee, and features lots of naval combat. I thought it was a nice change of pace from other novels, since we don't see much regarding the sea. |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2016 : 14:58:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Anyone interested in this topic should read The Reaver. It's completely focused on pirates, the Sea of Fallen Stars, Umberlee, and features lots of naval combat. I thought it was a nice change of pace from other novels, since we don't see much regarding the sea.
The Threat From the Sea trilogy had some nice monster naval battles as well. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2016 : 13:49:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Cannons, what world are you in?
While it is possible that enough smoke powder could be carried, there clearly still remains the problem of on a cannon of good enough metal to not blow apart.
He's presumably operating in the world where plate armour is widely available and a decent sword costs about the same as a few days in an inn.
Any world where articulated plate armour has been commonplace for centuries has metallurgy that is a lot better than you need for making cannon.
The problem is that a lot of game designers and Hollywood types assume that cannon are a later and more advanced technology than all kinds of things that they view as 'medieval'. In actual fact, cannons were a battlefield and naval armament long before anyone could field knights in articulated plate harness.
It's true that in the Realms, smokepowder prices make it impractical for mass adoption by navies or merchant ships. But that is because black powder does not work by fiat and smokepowder is a magical-alchemical substance that is several orders of magnitude more expensive than real black powder. It has nothing to do with metallurgy. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
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moonbeast
Senior Scribe
USA
522 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2016 : 18:13:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Cannons are canon.
Just felt like saying that.
And everything else (non-canon heresy) is cannon-fodder!  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11719 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2016 : 14:19:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Cannons, what world are you in?
While it is possible that enough smoke powder could be carried, there clearly still remains the problem of on a cannon of good enough metal to not blow apart.
He's presumably operating in the world where plate armour is widely available and a decent sword costs about the same as a few days in an inn.
Any world where articulated plate armour has been commonplace for centuries has metallurgy that is a lot better than you need for making cannon.
The problem is that a lot of game designers and Hollywood types assume that cannon are a later and more advanced technology than all kinds of things that they view as 'medieval'. In actual fact, cannons were a battlefield and naval armament long before anyone could field knights in articulated plate harness.
It's true that in the Realms, smokepowder prices make it impractical for mass adoption by navies or merchant ships. But that is because black powder does not work by fiat and smokepowder is a magical-alchemical substance that is several orders of magnitude more expensive than real black powder. It has nothing to do with metallurgy.
I had known that they were in use on the battlefield with emplacements that didn't really move that much early on, but I hadn't realized they were on ships so early. However, it appears they were in use on ships on or before 1338. Betting they weren't very portable/aimable though like the later ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Arnemuiden
The Battle of Arnemuiden was a naval battle fought on 23 September 1338 at the start of the Hundred Years' War between England and France. It was the first naval battle of the Hundred Years' War and the first recorded European naval battle using artillery, as the English ship Christopher had three cannons and one hand gun
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BandofMisfits
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2016 : 21:27:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lilianviaten
Anyone interested in this topic should read The Reaver. It's completely focused on pirates, the Sea of Fallen Stars, Umberlee, and features lots of naval combat. I thought it was a nice change of pace from other novels, since we don't see much regarding the sea.
Thank you for the recommendation! Are there any other naval focused books? I've also read Tangled Webs and The Pirate King. |
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Naval combat in the realms
