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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2014 : 21:14:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
I get it that people think that the geopolitical status of the Realms changed too much with the Spellplague, especially if you liked one of the regions that ceased to exist after it, but I'm the kind of guy that likes the Realm as a whole, so losing some parts and gaining others doesn't ruffle my feathers much. I get it when you say that they changed the Realms for no reason, but I think that what they're doing with 5E is worse. It's bad enough that they're tossing out everything concerning the Spellplague, good and bad, but they're also tossing stuff out that wasn't even related to the spellplague (Many-Arrows, Myth Drannor, Shade). And for what? Just to return the Realms to the same status quo it had 100 years ago? It's going to be silly to have the Zhents being the big bad guys again.
I agree with you when you say that not all new lore is to be thrown away (for example, I like Shade, even if it was overplayed/overtuned IMO. Also Many Arrows), but old lore and characters, nations or deities were pointlessly thrown away and need to be back.
Why is it silly that an iconic factions like the Zhentarim can make a comeback? Why is it silly that nations like Halruaa -that were simply LOLNUKED- make a return? Why is it silly that flavorful and interesting deities -especially those who were removed in nonsensical, nerve-grating ways- are back?
And no, 'something something change' is not a valid justification, as change for its own sake is outright stupid. Nor is 'too much deus ex machina needed for such returns', the Realms are ridiculous from that standpoint. Interesting, cool or unique/iconic elements that add depth and story opportunities to the setting deserve to be brought back IMO.
Also, sorry for the OT. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Apr 2014 21:41:15 |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 11:12:09
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It's silly because the Zhents have been, for the most part, wiped out. And it makes no sense, that after Shade is gone, they'll suddenly crop back up with likely the same power they had 100 years ago, when it would make a lot more sense for the current evil forces to fill the void that's going to be left by Shade.
This is the problem with how the Sundering is being handled, they're bringing stuff back with no rime nor reason. It's been 100 years since the Spellplague happened, stuff should have changed yet it's looking like they want to put everything to how it was all those years ago. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 11:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Not really. Evil is Evil. It's not even dirty business to kill them - it's a Good aligned act.
[...]
This means that, in my Realms, if you encounter someone who is Evil then you know with 100% certainty that it's kosher to kill them. You don't even have to ask questions. The moment you have that information, you know all you need to know.
Which reminds me. What is the typical punishment for murdering a noble in Cormyr? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 13:46:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
It's silly because the Zhents have been, for the most part, wiped out. And it makes no sense, that after Shade is gone, they'll suddenly crop back up with likely the same power they had 100 years ago, when it would make a lot more sense for the current evil forces to fill the void that's going to be left by Shade.
This is the problem with how the Sundering is being handled, they're bringing stuff back with no rime nor reason. It's been 100 years since the Spellplague happened, stuff should have changed yet it's looking like they want to put everything to how it was all those years ago.
You don't know how the the Zhent will be be back, or if Shade will be removed, tho. Things could be restored w/o the situation you describe happening.
Bringing back interesting/iconic/flavorful elements of the setting could be a middle ground for the people who dislike end 3E-4E changes and the ones who like them, so that both could see new lore/stories about things they like.
Also, the Realms have endured many cheesy changes, with poorly developed events and explanations, one last to 'fix' them won't be so bad. When I heard about the Sundering being 'Ao snaps fingers, things are ok' (also 'lol, allowing deaths and cataclysms to teach a lesson to the gods'), it was a big let down to me, but hopefully it will be the last of the little sense-making events we see.
One could say 'write in the past', but I don't see it as a real alternative atm. Considering WotC recent pace in releasing lore/novels, I'd say that it is unlikely that they will actually be able to support all eras with new material.
Besides, it wouldn't work for some topics, because one may want to see how some character's quest proceed and evolves, but already knowns that it is destined to fail. Such a case is what happened to Eilistraee/Vhaeraun. They were removed from the setting in a miserable, even nonsensical way, with a giant deus ex machina that was unfitting to their characters, while accomplishing nothing for their goal. And with them, the depth they added to the drow was taken away for no reason at all. It is one of those situations that shold never be 'resolved', because of all the story opportunites they can provide (and not necessarily focused on them, maybe simply showing how they interact with the world). Those two need to be back in order for authors to be able to write something about meaningful progress on their side. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Apr 2014 14:05:00 |
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MagniThorson
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 16:06:58
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I think the Realms could support both gaming and novel material pre SP or even time of troubles. I think of the Star Wars Expanded Universe as example of a multiple era platform and think of how successful they have been at having movies, games, comics, cartoons, span so many eras past, present, and future.
I am hoping that this is the template and it doesn't preclude a game accessory or novel from being set in classic realms era or post sundering or even ancient Faerun for that matter. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 20:31:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
It's silly because the Zhents have been, for the most part, wiped out. And it makes no sense, that after Shade is gone, they'll suddenly crop back up with likely the same power they had 100 years ago, when it would make a lot more sense for the current evil forces to fill the void that's going to be left by Shade.
This is the problem with how the Sundering is being handled, they're bringing stuff back with no rime nor reason. It's been 100 years since the Spellplague happened, stuff should have changed yet it's looking like they want to put everything to how it was all those years ago.
and taking them out without any rhyme or reason like they did was any better. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2014 : 23:54:06
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| Zhentil Keep was nuked -- not the Zhentarim. They still have the Citadel of the Raven and all their various outposts and agents. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 01:54:05
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
yet it's looking like they want to put everything to how it was all those years ago.
and taking them out without any rhyme or reason like they did was any better.
Yup, that's the problem. Once the first retcon is here, any "no retcons" claims are no more than a childish elusion insulting the readers' intelligence. It's either going with the first retcon or retconning it back. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 04:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Once the first retcon is here, any "no retcons" claims are no more than a childish elusion insulting the readers' intelligence. It's either going with the first retcon or retconning it back.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels insulted. WotC rewrites history and handwaves at will, and then pretends their hands are tied when we want things fixed without another RSE. We can't be expected to take them seriously when they whine that retconning would destroy everything. I'm just not quite dumb enough to accept that.
I think the bottom line is that WotC's sales strategy has been (we'll see if it still is) a variation on "sex sells" which says "RSEs sell." They get bored every so often, and they assume that means we need to jolted awake too. And much like the 4e Realms not precisely being the problem (the problem is the plotlines that have twisted the 1e Realms into the 4e Realms) it's not that "catastrophes sell" is such a terrible marketing strategy in general. It's just an epic fail when used on a lore-rich setting.
Use "ASEs sell" to sell Dark Sun. That setting is ideal for blowing stuff up every few years. But if you don't see the difference, or don't want there to be a difference, between Athas and Toril then you don't belong in the Realms steering/creative/marketing departments. 
Aaannd back to trying to keep my mouth shut in this thread. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 27 Apr 2014 04:06:12 |
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Baltas
Senior Scribe
Poland
955 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 11:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
About Mielikki's words, this is a good point:
quote:
Ed or THO recently stated some of the gods may be acting a bit extreme or outside their normal bounds while the Sundering is going on. And I believe it has been referenced here and there, that the gods WILL lie to get something to benefit them. They will even lie to their priests and divine agents etc.
What if Mielikki told Catti-brie to relay that information to Drizzt knowing it was a lie, or a stretch of the truth.
quote:
Hm. My Monster Manual says orcs are "Often chaotic evil." This is clarified in the back: "The creature tends toward the given alignment, either by nature or nurture, but not strongly. A plurality (40-50%) of individuals have the given alignment, but exceptions are common."
Even if it said they were always evil, there's still room for exceptions deliberately put into the rules.
I think I prefer this one to the black/white polarity.
Good observations Zireael, I've completely missed this out, and can explain Mielikki really strange behavior.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
After all, if you're dealing with innately Evil beings, then it's no different than slaughtering hordes of demons. The fact that these demons happen to wear Orc faces is irrelevant - slaying them is a Good Aligned Act, because it ends their reign (or soon-to-be reign) of terror, and brings the Realms more in line with the Upper Planes.
Wait, are you sarcastic here, or saying this seriously? If you mean this, you said earlier yourself in this post that orc children aren't evil. Not to mention, fiends are much, much more evil than orcs or goblins, they are souls of damned, galvanized in their malevolence by the lower planes, or beings literally born from evil.
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Edited by - Baltas on 27 Apr 2014 11:34:03 |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 13:05:43
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The whole "Orcs are inherrently evil" discussion is the perfect example of why I absolutely LOATHE objective morality and the alignment system. It's fine for 10-year old kids and novice gamers, but I find that the older and more experienced I become as a gamer, the less I appreciate this garbage.
With sentience, self-awareness, and a capacity for morality comes the capacity for making decisions about how you are going to behave. You are ruled not just by instincts and the needs for food and procreation, but rather by conscious decision making. Objective good/evil/morality flies flat in the face of this, and that just bothers me to hell and beyond. With objective morality, a female baby Orc playing with a doll in a playpen is evil by default, becaust the alignment says so, and therefor by default, it is perfectly fine for any mass-murdering "good-aligned" adventurer to come along and hack them to pieces with abandon, and then go and have lunch and feel good about themselves for eliminating an evil creature from the world. It's flat, boring, idiotic, and it doesn't lend itself to complex moral questions, which I personally find far more interesting and entertaining than a classic "hero goes forth to slay the evil sorcerer" story.
As for the changing of the Realms again, Wizards are in a bit of a fix, in my view. The 100 year time jump in 4th ed. was made in order to make some sweeping changes that addressed a number of things that Wizard's perceived to be detrimental to the sales of the game. Result: Spell-plague, gods disappearing, NPC's dying, nations changing, stuff disappearing, and old/new stuff showing up. Some liked it, but I'm guessing that a greater than anticipated portion of the customer base disliked it. And thus Wizards are now once again trying to make changes to the game, in the interest of maximizing sales. They have listened to some of the complaints of the fans, and now they are trying to find a way to give the players what they believe they are asking for. Their challenge thus becomes how to make these changes in a way that the fans will accept. And no matter how they do this, they will annoy some of their fans, because there simply isn't a concensus as to what is good, and what is bad and should be changed, nor how it should be done. Some fans were miffed that their favourite NPC's were killed off, so Wizards try and bring some of them back. Which result in various more or less idiotic explanations for how this can be achieved. Same things with larger changes. |
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MagniThorson
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 15:13:24
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For me the 100 year jump doomed my involvement or appreciation of 4E Realms. I wasn't a fan of the game mechanics but I could have lived with it and some of the large changes that came post SP. Having been a fan of the Realms for 2 decades, through gaming, compute games, and novels the complete loss of all my favorite NPC's and all of their untold stories caused me to be come detached. In any kind of serial fiction, the reader or viewer becomes emotionally invested in the characters and that is what the Realms had been up to that point.
It is why there are hundreds of Star Trek novels written around James T. Kirk or Star Wars novels around Luke Skywalker. Why so many Marvel and DC comic characters are iconic in society. It why so many tune in daily to Soap Operas or weekly to their favorite TV series. I won't speak for all but I think for many, that serial aspect to FR lore, stories and characters and the familiarity it breeds provides a great sense of immersion in the fiction and a greater emotional experience as things happen to the characters. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 16:17:25
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I'll chime in again because this time I can be relatively positive. And brief. Two things I'm sure everyone appreciates.
I agree, Magni, that the time jump caused detachment. I applaud your willingness to deal with some of the 4e changes in the Realms... I won't accept a single one.
I contend, though, that the time jump didn't have to be as damning as it was. Picture a fan who's never read a story involving Mirt the moneylender. He doesn't figure into a lot of stories, so there are probably a few Realms fans who've heard the name but never seen him in action. So one of these fans picks up... I think Crown of Fire is the novel I'm thinking of, but really any book that introduces us to Mirt's character. I don't think it matters what century Mirt is set in... he could have lived in 900 DR, and we're going to like him. If Mirt's not your favorite, pick another character. Does the time frame matter? Nope... the character is just awesome.
So yes, we have a whole ton of characters in 1357-1375 that we know and love... but the authors are the life of those characters, and we still have (or potentially have) those authors, and they can be the life of other characters too. The political boundaries would might look a little different in the future or the past, but that's just artwork on the map. The Realms can come alive in any time frame.
If WotC lets it. Which is why, though I agree that jumping forward 100 years was stupid and they should have foreseen that just as clearly as we see it in hindsight, that wasn't actually what caused sales on the 4e Campaign Guide to stink like a dead leucrotta. If they hadn't broken everything else that they broke, and if they'd introduced 1479 with several "whooaaaa" novels, we would have been more okay with the fast-forward.
Two key decisions would help us acclimate to hopping around the timeline:
1. Full support for previous editions. Simply continue publishing game sourcebooks set prior to the Spellplague for a while, to ease the transition. This is a no-brainer.
2. More novels, and more of them (say 20%?) set in the past. A few of the initial novels should have been set in the 1375-1475 gap, and gradually we'd get more of that time filled in as we go, while also pressing into the post-apocalyptic future.
If they'd done those things, then pfftt the time jump is no biggie because (1) we can easily continue playing in the pre-Spellplague setting, and (2) we're being brought up to speed with gripping novels filled with new characters who are just as awesome as the ones we know and love.
My 2 coppers, hopefully a little shinier this time. |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1268 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 16:46:57
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
1. Full support for previous editions. Simply continue publishing game sourcebooks set prior to the Spellplague for a while, to ease the transition. This is a no-brainer.
2. More novels, and more of them (say 20%?) set in the past. A few of the initial novels should have been set in the 1375-1475 gap, and gradually we'd get more of that time filled in as we go, while also pressing into the post-apocalyptic future.
If they'd done those things, then pfftt the time jump is no biggie because (1) we can easily continue playing in the pre-Spellplague setting, and (2) we're being brought up to speed with gripping novels filled with new characters who are just as awesome as the ones we know and love.
My 2 coppers, hopefully a little shinier this time.
A small bit of polish for those coppers. They are partially doing number one through DnD Classics on DrivethruRPG. More and more old edition PDFs are becoming available weekly. They have done actual print runs of the core books for every rules set, so you can play whatever edition you want.
The novels remain to be seen, and I'd honestly be surprised if they did a novel set in the past given the talk of moving forward.
Anyway, there's another copper.  |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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MagniThorson
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 17:09:35
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I like a lot of what xaeyruudh says here. I agree the characters live with the authors and that is what made them great. I think introducing new characters is great and I am sure I would like them.
I would be disappointed if they didn't take this opportunity to revisit them. Take Mirt for example, there were probably many stories to be told as its clear from the broad strokes that he really has had some life. Some stories we saw only the broad strokes but there were more than a few we got an intimate look at his character. What was established and what exists in Ed's head could probably feel many, many novels. Why wipe him out with a 100 year time jump? Why not revisit the past?
If a story is written with a "Mirt" like character, at least for me that will cheapen the experience because I will immediately feel that is just a facsimile of something else. It would be like casting a new Star Trek series utilizing a captain that embodies all of the same attributes as James T. Kirk but an entirely different character named Jackson Roykirk. It would be an imitation. Even though the Star Trek timeline has moved on in TV, Movies, and Fiction people still want to see stories around Kirk, Spock, and the classic era.
I think there is a lesson to be learned there for WotC. There is the commercial aspect of it but in serial fiction, fans never want to see their favorites laid to rest and it seems are always ready and want to revisit the characters. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 17:35:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Delwa
The novels remain to be seen, and I'd honestly be surprised if they did a novel set in the past given the talk of moving forward.
Anyway, there's another copper.
They have revisited a couple of older novels series, republishing them in omnibus format... I'm quite curious about some of their choices, there, but I'd love to see them do more of that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ateth Istarlin
Seeker
United Kingdom
80 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 17:37:30
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quote:
Originally posted by MagniThorson
For me the 100 year jump doomed my involvement or appreciation of 4E Realms. I wasn't a fan of the game mechanics but I could have lived with it and some of the large changes that came post SP. Having been a fan of the Realms for 2 decades, through gaming, compute games, and novels the complete loss of all my favorite NPC's and all of their untold stories caused me to be come detached. In any kind of serial fiction, the reader or viewer becomes emotionally invested in the characters and that is what the Realms had been up to that point.
It is why there are hundreds of Star Trek novels written around James T. Kirk or Star Wars novels around Luke Skywalker. Why so many Marvel and DC comic characters are iconic in society. It why so many tune in daily to Soap Operas or weekly to their favorite TV series. I won't speak for all but I think for many, that serial aspect to FR lore, stories and characters and the familiarity it breeds provides a great sense of immersion in the fiction and a greater emotional experience as things happen to the characters.
QFT |
The more I read about 4FR, the more depressed I am.
Politician - An elected official who tries to be all things to all people, while always looking out for his/her own interests first. |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2014 : 18:01:43
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I do appreciate the re-release of old adventures and rulebooks, and you're right that it's partially addressing that point but I didn't mean simply continuing to make old books available. Selling the old rules/adventures in new wrapping paper is a pretty empty gesture because (in the case of the "special edition" rulebooks at least) they're charging your firstborn for each book, and it's not new material. But I do like seeing the old books available again. It's just that I can probably find decent copies of the old books on Amazon for less than the new versions. I will be pleased when everything from previous editions is available as well-OCR'd pdfs for $2.99 apiece. Until then it's a "meh" for me. Even if it's cheap, it's still a continuing revenue stream from out of print items which WotC wouldn't have otherwise, so it's a good deal for everyone.
I agree that a new character which mirrors an old character is a letdown. This should basically never be done. Each character needs to stand out; otherwise they're pointless. The Star Trek analogy is apt; we still want to see stories involving Khelben, Shandril, and others. You don't need to invent stupid excuses to keep characters alive for hundreds of years if you keep an era-neutral attitude with the setting; you can write stories about any character at any time, while continually adding new unique characters with their own strengths and weaknesses. Azoun IV dies and there's a new king on the throne... but fret not, fans of Azoun IV, because this doesn't mean there will never be another story about him. But now we have a new king to talk about, too. Right?
Of course that can be taken too far, but right now we have a situation where the setting is nuked every few years, smaller changes are made even more quickly, and every death is final... nobody gets to revisit a character who is dead in the "present" unless they're bringing that character back and still moving into the future. Fail.
It is totally possible to continually enrich the setting with new material while also declining to remove old favorites. If you show no favoritism and remain wide open to publishing stories set in any/every year on the timeline. This simple commitment would have a profoundly positive impact on our enjoyment of the setting as well as WotC's pocketbook. |
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Dumbing Down the Realms (Yeah spoilers)
