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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 20:36:16
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I've found no official descriptions or even mentions of the following cities in FR material. They are listed as drow cities in the 2e book FOR2 Drow of the Underdark... but apparently nowhere else.
- Abaethaggar
- Abburth
- Baereghel
- Charrvhel'raugaust
- Cheth Rrhinn
- Faneadar
- Haundrauth
- Ithilaughym
- Luihaulen'tar
- Orlytlar
- Sshanntynlan
- Szithlin
- Tyrybblyn
- Uluitur
Undraeth
- Waethe Hlammachar
- Yuethindrynn
Am I missing some notes somewhere?
Edit: Thanks for Undraeth, Asharak!
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Edited by - xaeyruudh on 23 Mar 2014 15:47:28
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 22:28:53
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You're not. As you say, they are undetailed. Although I'd like to steal one and put it under the Earthfast Mountains.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 23:06:16
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I mapped out Szithlin in one of our campaigns. Since there was a Szith Morcane under the Daggerdale area, I figured Szithlin would most likely be under the Dalelands due to the similar name. I originally mapped it out on 1 page, then decided I didn't like that and made it into a 6 page monster that I printed out and taped together.
Nothing special, and it's done in pencil, but gets the job done for the most part.
If ya need a drow city map for a campaign, here ya be:
http://eilserus.deviantart.com/gallery/ |
Edited by - Eilserus on 22 Mar 2014 23:07:00 |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 23:27:01
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Awesome work, Eilserus!
And George: I for one think you should do it. 
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Asharak
Learned Scribe
France
268 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 10:29:52
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see polyhedron 140, Llurth Dreier: City of Ooze by Eric L. Boyd, p. 20 & 21 for Undraeth
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"Soyez réalistes : demandez l'impossible"
Sorry for my English... it's not my native tongue. |
Edited by - Asharak on 23 Mar 2014 10:34:55 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 14:33:56
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| It's a shame that city didn't get added to the Wizards website or appear elsewhere for lore purposes, as it was a good one. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 18:42:41
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| What a pity there's no lore on these... I like Baereghel and Cheth Rhinn the most. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 21:15:10
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There's also Telnarquel, a drow city so well hidden, most drow explorers refuse to acknowledge its existence. It was mentioned in Silverfall but has also never been detailed.
Edit: Oh, and there's also Rilauven. It was noted in the Icewind Dale games as being located almost directly beneath Neverwinter. The games also give a bit of lore but in Drow of the Underdark it's only included on the list, there's no canon lore. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
Edited by - hashimashadoo on 23 Mar 2014 21:24:49 |
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ruxpin_exe
Acolyte
Canada
16 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2014 : 23:03:37
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This is actually amazing. I love when they leave a little tidbit for lore but leave the broader strokes for you to fill in.
Also Eilserus those pictures are great. Do you have notes for them all as well? Just out of curiosity what you wrote. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2014 : 23:10:48
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| Well one thing Ed has said is he did like to leave room for DMs to develop the open spaces to meet their campaign. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 15:30:32
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| @ Eilserus - I would also be interested in reading any notes you had made about your Drow City |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 17:33:27
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I loaded the city map key into a PDF file. It's not much more than names of places, houses, areas of interest etc. And I've flat out jacked almost all of them from various sourcebooks dealing with drow and underdark areas over the years so I can't take credit for the naming of things. I just compiled the ones I liked. ;)
Most my other notes are paper copies or a mess in digital form. I can say that the nearest landmark to the city was the Twisted Caverns (inspired by the Gates of Firestorm Mountain) and that the nearest trading hub was Khazefryn from Dungeon #81 (that I planned to update).
Szithlin was an outpost founded by House Dhuurniv during their disgrace and years of exile from Maerimydra. After their failure in the adventure Shadowdale Scouring of the Land (I kept them alive) this is where they retreated to and founded a new settlement that quickly grew beyond their control.
I had notes for some of the festivals the city held, but can't seem to find them. Off the top of my head there was one in honor of the Spiderfires that torched a huge section of the Rystall Wood in -2439 DR and a celebration of the Dark Court Slaughter and the fall of Sarphil of -4,400 DR.
You can find the download link for the city map key pdf doc here:
http://eilserus.deviantart.com/art/Szithlin-Drow-City-Map-Key-442936519
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Edited by - Eilserus on 26 Mar 2014 17:38:07 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 17:34:32
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And I did find this, but it's outdated. Hope it helps:
Szithlin
(Middle Deep Wastes)
Located in the Deep Wastes on the shores of the Moondeep Sea, Szithlin is a drow city on the brink of civil war. The conflict stems from rival faiths and powerful mercantile interests struggling for control of a city weakened in the aftermath of the Spellplague.
Szithlin At A Glance
Deep beneath the northern reaches of the Cormanthor Forest, buried by miles of twisting passages and monster-infested tunnels, lies Szithlin. The city occupies a small portion [outdated, I made the new city sprawl huge] of a large cavern network situated on the shores of the Moondeep Sea. Szithlin is a testament to the strength and resilience of the drow survivors who fled the fall of Maerimydra during the Silence of Lolth. Unfortunately, this survival came at a price to the traditional ruling elite. Following the destruction of their ancient homeland, the priestesses of Lolth were greatly weakened and unable to maintain the iron-grip that marked their rule of past centuries. During the city’s early days, powerful merchant houses arose that grew rich by controlling nearly every aspect of commerce in the new settlement and then refugees from destroyed Llurth Dreier arrived in waves, bringing worship of their foul deity Ghaunadaur with them.
Given time, Lolth’s clergy might have reclaimed their absolute rule, but then disaster struck. Foul, mindless creatures of slime and ooze rose from the dark waters of the Moondeep Sea and attacked the fledgling community. While mercenary soldiers of the merchant houses and priestesses of Lolth battled these horrors, the priests of Ghaunadaur called upon their fell deity for aid. Offering the combatants as sacrifices in a dark ritual that became known as The Great Devouring, the horrors of the deep decimated the defenders at the priest’s direction, consuming all that stood against them and then retreated back into the dark depths after a tenday of destruction. This event sealed Ghaunadaur’s place in Szithlin as droves of worshippers joined the faith after this show of power. [This event also wrecked most of the fledgling community and created the acid scarred structures that mark the slums and docks to this day. Survivors settled into better areas away from the shoreline.]
Almost a century has passed since The Great Devouring and all three factions still vie for control of Szithlin in a series of escalating conflicts many are worried will tear the city apart. Occasionally besieged by horrors of the Underdark from without and internecine fighting from within, Szithlin awaits the dark hand of those with the power and will to rule her people before the depleted city falls to ruin.
The Noble Houses
The powers of the noble houses of Szithlin are not what they could be. Some of the great families were shattered during the fall of Maerimydra and many more were reduced greatly in power during The Great Devouring. As a result, the noble families were hard-pressed to field respectable house armies in the intervening years. With the loss of so many warriors, the city has seen many of its lucrative trade routes blocked by infestations of dangerous monsters or even the swords of their erstwhile trading partners.
Szithlin is haphazardly governed by 29 noble houses [outdated, there are many more], many who swear allegiance to some fell power or another, with Lolth and Ghaunadaur being the most popular. A third faction is an unaffiliated collection of noble merchant houses that serves to balance out the powers of the two main religious camps, playing one side against the other for profit and political advancement. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 26 Mar 2014 17:42:10 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 17:36:55
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And a few from that same file on a couple houses:
House Aintadaur [##] was one of several noble houses loyal to Ghaunadaur that arrived in Szithlin after the destruction of Llurth Dreier. Ruled by the deadly weapons master Lord Bruherd (CE male drow fighter 14), House Aintadaur and its battle-hardened soldiers occupy the squat barracks-like keep that sits just above the Docks Ward. Rumors say the family has many dark and powerful secrets of blacksmithing gleaned from their time in Llurth Dreier. The numerous armor and weapon smiths of this family are kept sequestered in their halls to avoid capture and imprisonment by rival families. [Soldiers: 60, Slaves: 140]
House Chessiryn [##] is a family that hails from far off Eryndlyn, a drow city deep under the High Moor. Loyal to the Champion of Lolth, Selvetarm, and led by Mistress Ma’chel (NE female drow cleric 9), the Chessiryn family is viewed as little more than the swordarm of Lolth’s priestesses. Ma’chel and her family are rumored to possess several relics of power from Telantiwar, the first drow empire and from where they claim descent. [Soldiers: 40, Slaves: 50]
House Dhuurniv [1] is an ancient and haughty family that occupies a massive and beautifully sculpted stalagmite-stalactite fortress that overlooks the rest of the city from a plateau. Ruled by three ancient crones (Aunrae CE female drow cleric 13, Meluria CE female drow cleric 10, Ginafae NE female drow cleric 11) who are deeply devoted to Lolth and rumored to be over a thousand years old, they are collectively and fearfully referred to as The Matron Sisters. The Dhuurniv’s treasure vaults were once overflowing with loot gained from their raiding parties and merchant traders, but today they stand empty, their soldiers too few to do anything more than shore up the compound battlements. Zola, the youngest daughter of Matron Ginafae, intends to restore her family to prominence by sword and blood. [Soldiers: 90, Slaves: 60]
House Helviiryn [##] is one of strongest merchant families in the city, dealing primarily in the lucrative deep rothe hide and meat trade. The merchant clan is headed by Talzir (NE male drow fighter-rogue 4/6), an eccentric, middle-aged drow lord of keen wits and a love for mounted hunts into the Deeps. The house has recently expanded its grazing lands with the rebuilding of a ruin into a fortified tower on the outskirts of the city. Rumors in the city taverns claim that slaves working at this tower broke into an undiscovered tunnel complex filled with riches and guardian undead. The tales range from skeletons and ghouls to an entire family of spell hurling liches. House Helviiryn has doubled the guard contingent at this outpost since the discovery and has remained silent on the matter. [Soldiers: 200, Slaves: 350]
House Klor’lyphar [##] is a family that proclaims Lolth as their deity, but the upper noble ranks are infested with traitor-priestesses to Vhaeraun. The shadowy assassins of this clan covertly work against the priestesses of Lolth under the cunning direction of Matron Slylyndrath (NE female drow cleric 9) and her deadly consort, Patron Yithzin (CE male drow assassin 12). The house’s coffers receive a steady supply of gold and jewels from the smuggling of trade goods and the sale of several poisons that are unique creations of their master poisoners. [Soldiers: 150, Slaves: 120]
House Miliskeera [##] is another ancient house of Lolth worshipping drow and they have been rivals of House Dhuurniv for over a thousand years. The young Matron Nylazra’thyst (CE female drow cleric 10) claimed the throne from her ailing mother mere weeks ago, after mercenary attacks saw the destruction of a large portion of their warehouse and mercantile operations within the city. Nylazra’thyst managed to destroy her mother in a spectacular spell duel with the aid of strong magic seized from a nameless dungeon in the ruins southeast of the city. She has already dispatched the House Wizard Urlryn (NE male drow wizard 8) and her daughters Elraena (CE female drow cleric 7) and Chel’lestra (NE female drow cleric 6) with a raiding party to recover more magic and treasure from the ruins. [Soldiers: 140, Slaves: 200] |
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Lothlos
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 19:24:39
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| Thanks for your posts and your the city map key - Great work!!!! Thanks again for sharing with the community. |
The Road goes ever on and on
Down from the door where it began.
Now far ahead the Road has gone,
And I must follow, if I can,
Pursuing it with eager feet,
Until it joins some larger way
Where many paths and errands meet.
And whither then? I cannot say.
-J.R.R. Tolkien
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 19:53:58
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| No problem. If scribes have use for some of this stuff, more than happy to share it. |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 12:29:50
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Hello there Eilserus,
I have just finished a rather epic adventure using City of the Spider Queen and now the story is shifting towards the rebuilding and expansion of places like Szith Morcane and Maerimydra by the drow.
Your detailing of Szithlin looks amazing and I'd love to find out as much as you are willing to share about it. The current adventure I'm planning to run will be a kind of kingdom-building adventure (a la Pathfinder's Kingmaker) and I like the idea of charting the growth of somewhere like Szith Morcane into an eventual Szithlin-esque city.
Brilliant work,
Eli the Tanner |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2014 : 19:10:41
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Hi Eli,
Thanks. I hear you on the Kingmaker adventure path. Very fun stuff! You should check out Second Darkness if you haven't too, that's all drow centric and has a really nice city map of a large 55,000 population drow city capital.
Most of the city I never detailed out beyond the map key and the player's spent most of their time at The Broken Dagger Tavern (that they ran) and sneaking off to their hidden refuge north of the city and stockpiling it with supplies, loot, and slaves for the mines (it was a small mithril mine of Tethyamar). They knew the city was heading for a tipping point and were very unsure if they would survive the war that was coming, even with the supposed backing of House Dhuurniv (that they supplied with small shipments of weapons and arms and ran the occasional mission (borderline suicidal bladework or retrieve this item runs) for The Matron Sisters.
We were just about to kick off the civil war when we decided to shelve the campaign for a while and try playing some good guys.
In regards to a Kingmaker style adventure, I was tinkering with creating a list of local areas that either the city would eventually conquer or the player's would at one point. Really rough draft stuff, but the end-game goal I had for the campaign was the player's destroying Myth Drannor (that way it would be a ruin again for our surface campaign!).
I never could draw a regional underdark map that I liked and still haven't really found a format that looks good. I can tell you some local features I had placed in the area. Again most of these are areas or ideas pulled out of other sourcebooks and what not.
Twisted Caverns - Closest landmark to the city and infested with gibberlings and other strange creatures. I had planned to connect this area with hidden tunnels leading up to the duergar settlement from the module The Gates of Firestorm Peak. The PC's could have used this as a small trade contact and maybe eventually conquer it.
The Drider Mine - Never made a more fancy name. This was a gem mine north of the city (rubies from what the PC's could tell) and was where the rogue in the party was sent to die per his backstory. Run by a bunch of drider overseers with a few drow taskmasters. A purple worm attack provided the opportunity to escape and the player's discovered a hidden dwarven door in the far reaches of this mine, leading through a small guard post of sorts (where they found clues to a hidden mithril mine deeper in the underdark). They eventually came back to this area and filled it with traps to make it a death-gauntlet for anyone heading to the area of their secret base.
The Ghostwood - Pulled straight from The Empire of Ghouls module in Dungeon 70. I planned to make the cavern larger and still have it roamed by that beholder ghost and drow banshee. I also wanted the stalagmites in the eastern portion to be an old hidden dwarven smithy from Tethyamar (or maybe Sarphil) that the players could explore. The mushroom forest also held a hidden ruined temple. This place was a way station for one of the merchant companies I wanted the players to tangle with. And straight from a Magic card, the players would have met Pashalik Mons and his band of raiders!
Angrim - Also pulled from Dungeon #70, this was a hidden deep dwarf city. No deep dwarves in Realms cannon I know, but we use them. ;) I wasn't sure about the population but I believe it would have been small (~350 total) and they quietly worked a rich gold mine. The drow thought them all exterminated and rarely ventured in this area.
Szith Morcane - I had this as a current ruin and had plans for the Matron of House Morcane to eventually attempt to coerce the players into adventuring there to find some lost relic. She would neglect to tell them after they faced all the danger and cleared most of the monsters out that she'd send troops to recolonize the place. I saw this as the pivotal stepping stone to getting into the Tethyamar area to those rich adamantite mines. Tunnels from Szith Morcane would also lead up under Daggerdale per the old 2E Daggerdale adventure. I envisioned the PC's playing the same old dirty drow trick they did with Colderan Morn and find some human wizard or merchants to corrupt with drow spells in exchange for trade goods etc.
Maerimydra - This was to be an underdark version of Myth Drannor. An undead and monster haunted ruin that everyone avoided but was still filled with riches. I contemplated having it be a true ghoul city of dead drow, monsters, and undead goblinkin.
Outpost Zadzifeirryn - this is from Season 9 Web of the Spider Queen. This was to connect the Lake of Shadows and be the primary stopping off point of old for barge traffic coming from the Twisted Tower. Pathways would lead to the Demonspur.
The Demonspur - also from season 9. Giant stalactite with mushroom wood bridges linking its levels, spiraling down like a corkscrew. Lowest level leads to Zadzifeirryn. Top levels have branch off points that would lead to caverns full of goblin fodder and a branch that led to the old drow caverns beneath the Twisted Tower.
The Twisted Tower - Known to the drow as Azmaer's Folly. This hub was the eventual goal of the drow and it's reconquering would begin the real destruction of Myth Drannor. Kicking that off with a Spider Fires Part 2. The Grinding Gulf in this area would lead to Alokkair, the Wizard-King an old drow ally. The bottom of the Grinding Gulf was a trade tunnel of sorts that branched off into the unknown, and was also one of the hubs that connected the underground highways leading into the Storm Horns and beyond (per 2E Shadowdale adventure sourcebook)
There is also a duergar city underneath Zhentil Keep that is on bad terms with the drow, but I never did much with that. Though the duergar in the group hailed from there. ;)
Hope this helps with some local area ideas.
If you need more maps for adventures and such check out Dyson, he makes awesome stuff for free:
http://rpgcharacters.wordpress.com/
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 15:19:33
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Love the extra details Eilserus, much appreciated.
I checked out Second Darkness like you said (specifically Endless Night) and it is quite a nice city with some good ideas for me to bounce off, though it's not quite as detailed as somewhere like Menzoberranzan. The infiltration plot is ripe for developing.
I'm in the formative stages of developing the settlement and I noted that your versions of Szithlin have gone through growth periods. Did you start with a city already in mind or did you slowly add to a smaller settlement? I imagine my campaign would run as a historical version of yours with the characters helping the drow to bring together the scattered Maerimydran refugees and establishing early trade links as they work towards an eventual Szithlin city-state. Is there any earlty history on Szithlin you could share?
Depending on how the characters plan it there could be resettling of places like Maerimydra or V'elddrinnsshar (a fallen city on the Moondeep). Otherwise I can imagine the disparate bands of drow forming something of a loose confederacy like Undrek'Thoz. Did Szithlin go through any of these incarnations?
Finally what do you think the connection between Szith Morcane and Szithlin is? I know Szith Morcane was established as an outpost of Maerimydra but could Szithlin have been a similar ofshoot, like Ched Nasad is to Menzo?
Many thanks
Eli the Tanner |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 08:41:46
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quote:
Maerimydra - This was to be an underdark version of Myth Drannor. An undead and monster haunted ruin that everyone avoided but was still filled with riches. I contemplated having it be a true ghoul city of dead drow, monsters, and undead goblinkin.
*drools* |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 01:51:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
Love the extra details Eilserus, much appreciated.
I checked out Second Darkness like you said (specifically Endless Night) and it is quite a nice city with some good ideas for me to bounce off, though it's not quite as detailed as somewhere like Menzoberranzan. The infiltration plot is ripe for developing.
I'm in the formative stages of developing the settlement and I noted that your versions of Szithlin have gone through growth periods. Did you start with a city already in mind or did you slowly add to a smaller settlement? I imagine my campaign would run as a historical version of yours with the characters helping the drow to bring together the scattered Maerimydran refugees and establishing early trade links as they work towards an eventual Szithlin city-state. Is there any earlty history on Szithlin you could share?
Depending on how the characters plan it there could be resettling of places like Maerimydra or V'elddrinnsshar (a fallen city on the Moondeep). Otherwise I can imagine the disparate bands of drow forming something of a loose confederacy like Undrek'Thoz. Did Szithlin go through any of these incarnations?
Finally what do you think the connection between Szith Morcane and Szithlin is? I know Szith Morcane was established as an outpost of Maerimydra but could Szithlin have been a similar ofshoot, like Ched Nasad is to Menzo?
Many thanks
Eli the Tanner
*Wrote alot of this through the course of the day, so it jumps around and rambles alot.*
Originally before the campaign started we were going to use a small city. And the first one page map I did was kind of my first go at drawing a drow city. But it started to bother me that it just fit into one area and looked more like a postage stamp than anything. Broke the believability for me there.
So I started work on the other one, the dock side first. And the more we discussed the campaign I just decided to make it bigger. Partially because I knew I'd never have the time to keep updating if it started growing by leaps and bounds. And partially because we were aiming for bring back the drow empire from the days of drow ruled Lands Under Shadow. Or something crazy like Telantiwar.
Of course, and this is just a guess, but unless the players get their hands on some sort of nasty, horrific magic or find a way to enforce the absolute rule of one faction or another, it's probably going to be destroyed in a civil war on par with the fall of Golothaer.
And here's one thing to keep in mind that we never really addressed either. In Ed Greenwood's writing, whether at the Keep here or in I believe the Avatar series he wrote, he does reference there being OTHER drow cities in the area. And deep gnomes and greedy mindflayers to boot!
One dealt with drow priestesses trying to breed Sylune (I think that's who it was) with spiders to create biddable driders as mounts for drow warriors. They were to be used in the execution of war with other drow cities in the deeps. Which is something I'd love seen written about in canon.
We've all seen powerhouses like Menzo or Ched Nasad, but I'd like to know how or what Ed had in mind for references like that. Are they large settlements like our normal drow cities or that he referenced in the old 2E Menzo boxed set (35,000+) or are we talking about only a few thousand etc.
Unfortunately, I don't have any early city history other than what has been noted as it was more of a backstory deal for the PC's.
Maerimydra and V'elddrinnsshar have always interested me as a pair. Originally, Maerimydra was envisioned directly beneath the Moonsea (by Ed or Eric Boyd or both, I think). I suppose this could depend on the map, but I would think this could place it also on the shores of the Moondeep Sea. And if Maerimydra was the largest known drow settlement in the Dales area (of course largest known doesn't mean actual largest), and V'elddrinnsshar was also in that area, I thought there should be some connection there since they would be fairly close by each other.
Ed has stated that a drow word for psionics is ulsharyorn. And Veldrin means shadows or concealment afforded by varying light. I don't know much about language, but Valsharess means queen. Quarvalsharess means Goddess. So maybe it could mean Shadow Queen, Queen of Shadows, or even Lolth's (Queen's) Shadow instead of Concealed Mind.
There's no founding date for V'elddrinnsshar (that I know of) and given its nearness to Sarphil it may have been established after The Dark Court Slaughter in -4,400 DR. If the city name means Concealed Mind, I could see this being a spy outpost maintained to keep an eye on Sarphil (or the drow waymoot of Tel Verinal) and that bloomed into a full fledged city once that realm fell.
Shevarash killed High Priestess Darthiir-elgg Aleanrahel (Darthiir = faeries, surface elves and Elgg = kill, slay, or destroy) in and around -4,070 DR. I find it interesting that her name is basically Elf-Killer and it tells you she killed many elves and probably was involved with the Dark Court Slaughter given the title and time frame.
So given the time, we could see Darthiir-elgg splitting off from the Maerimydran drow after the elf/dwarf slaughter and perhaps pushed out to found her own settlement or even a base from which to administer the Sarphil lands that were now drow property. If her house wasn't part of the ruling elite I could see them encouraging this so she wouldn't upset the hierarchy, as pulling off that attack had to amount to being hugely popular with the drow masses. I'd have V'elddrinnsshar mean Queen's Shadow and her as its first ruler if I was using this I think, but that's just me.
I chose Szithlin because Szith Morcane was already in the area and well there must be a reason why they are so closely named. I never really delved into that though.
So in Salvatore's latest novels, House Xorlarrin are building themselves a city in Gauntlgrym, named Xorlarrin. Then we have Chumavhraele that was created beneath Ravens Bluff by survivors of the First House of Maerimydra. Then there's Ched Nasad founded by the Nasadra etc.
With the above in mind, instead of having House Dhuurniv found Szithlin, maybe it should have been drow from House Szithlin. Vournath's Mire was cleared by a champion in 800 DR and Szith Morcane founded in 804 DR. If Szithlin is a House, I would assume it and House Morcane founded the settlement together. The Bazaar in that outpost was, at its height a bustling hub of commerce and that could have made the several drow families in residence very rich.
House Szithlin could have been a rising star set upon expansion or simply ruling a city where they didn't have to contend with another powerful family like the Morcane's. In my version, I had House Dhuurniv settle in that area and founded Szithlin because of a magical ruin they discovered in the mushroom grove behind their citadel. It was the outpost the family retreated to after their exile from Maerimydra during the Spider's Truce, but was originally just a place for secret magical research.
For some reason none of this really clicked in my head before. Can't believe I didn't catch that Darthiir'elgg reference until just now. I'll have to modify the Dhuurniv family history. Like how they showed up at the settlement, exterminated the Szithlin and then took over, instead of the flat out lie they tell everyone in how they founded the place. Or something along those lines. ;)
Hope some of this helps. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 02:04:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Maerimydra - This was to be an underdark version of Myth Drannor. An undead and monster haunted ruin that everyone avoided but was still filled with riches. I contemplated having it be a true ghoul city of dead drow, monsters, and undead goblinkin.
*drools*
You are telling me! Maerimydra is most likely older than Menzoberranzan. And they had the magic to stand up to and even maintain an outpost and sizable lands during Myth Drannor's time. That place has to be cram packed with spellbooks and very potent magic!
Of course if they still had that type of magic you would think their recent history and weakened state would be far different. If that's the case, makes a person wonder what they squandered it on. Or what happened. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 03 Apr 2014 02:48:50 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 15:32:30
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quote:
So in Salvatore's latest novels, House Xorlarrin are building themselves a city in Gauntlgrym, named Xorlarrin. Then we have Chumavhraele that was created beneath Ravens Bluff by survivors of the First House of Maerimydra. Then there's Ched Nasad founded by the Nasadra etc.
With the above in mind, instead of having House Dhuurniv found Szithlin, maybe it should have been drow from House Szithlin. Vournath's Mire was cleared by a champion in 800 DR and Szith Morcane founded in 804 DR. If Szithlin is a House, I would assume it and House Morcane founded the settlement together. The Bazaar in that outpost was, at its height a bustling hub of commerce and that could have made the several drow families in residence very rich.
I'd say that the Dhuurniv were elevated later, much like the Baenre rose many years after Menzoberranzan was founded.
I'd say House Morcane and House Szithlin might have been splinters of the same house (erm, trying to recall any such splintering in the lore but the only case I seem to remember had something to do with Menzo) |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 16:15:17
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| That's very possible. Homeland does mention that noble daughters over the age of 500, as part of a custom, depart to form their own houses. Of course that could be only in Menzoberranzan, though I imagine some, not all, Lolth held cities share such a custom. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 17:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
That's very possible. Homeland does mention that noble daughters over the age of 500, as part of a custom, depart to form their own houses. Of course that could be only in Menzoberranzan, though I imagine some, not all, Lolth held cities share such a custom.
That would certainly cut down on intra-House conflict, if these "proto-Matrons" got their own Houses, instead of gunning for their moms. Of course, you'd think that this would lead to an ever-expanding roster of Houses, and the founding of new cities every few centuries, to accommodate all the new Houses... |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 17:59:01
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A probably-significant percentage of drow daughters don't make it to 500 yrs of age, being assassinated before that.
Of the ones who survive, only those who are "favored by Lolth" would be encouraged/allowed to strike out on their own. Ambitious but unproven daughters might be slain by their own Matrons so that they don't (A) reflect poorly on their House when they inevitably fail or (B) somehow succeed, potentially reflecting poorly on their House anyway if they resorted to using unacceptable tactics/aid like other gods or too many males.
Of the "favored by Lolth" daughters who are cleared to start their own cities, a probably-significant percentage of them will be denied resources by their own House, and fail to acquire sufficient resources by deceit or conquest. After all, it makes no sense for a Matron to weaken her own House by giving resources to an upstart daughter; exceptions might be made if the daughter has exceptional loyalty to the Matron, an exceptionally sound plan for survival, and will never be a threat to the parent House and can therefore be seen as a promising investment.
Of those who do manage to get sufficient resources to found a new city, a percentage will be assassinated by rivals who successfully anticipated her success and feigned support in order to become part of the entourage so as to take her place as the Matron of the First House of the new city.
It does happen... it just probably doesn't often succeed, or last long, or work out well for the original daughter. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 20:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
That's very possible. Homeland does mention that noble daughters over the age of 500, as part of a custom, depart to form their own houses. Of course that could be only in Menzoberranzan, though I imagine some, not all, Lolth held cities share such a custom.
That would certainly cut down on intra-House conflict, if these "proto-Matrons" got their own Houses, instead of gunning for their moms. Of course, you'd think that this would lead to an ever-expanding roster of Houses, and the founding of new cities every few centuries, to accommodate all the new Houses...
True. The question we'd have to ask, is how often does this happen? As far as I could tell, Matron Yvonnel Baenre never let her daughters do this, she was simply too powerful and kept everyone in line. But, many of those adopted nobles from destroyed families ended up doing such a thing. And also were supposedly loyal to their patron house, though I could see this disappearing, weakening, or fading away within a few generations (with the exception of it being a House fostered by the Baenre).
Ed has stated that if drow kill each other so much, they must breed like rabbits. And it would fit, being Lolth the Spider Queen, spiders have lots of babies, maybe she gifted her people with that dark gift or some such.
But if we have new houses frequently popping up, they must be culled or balanced. Personally, I think warfare between the lesser houses is a fairly common thing compared to the top tier monolithic noble families (house wars still happen for the high ranked, just not as often, maybe every 40 years instead of every 10 as an average etc.). Not much to lose, all the world to gain, the very bottom rung of drow nobility could be a churning pool of warfare and carnage. Picture a non-stop brawl and you have to win 10 or 20 fights to get out of that mess and graduate into the next league so to speak, or you die. Next league being somewhere in the 30 or 40th ranking I imagine.
Maybe the city council would be called upon to deal with failures in the lesser houses, but I would imagine at least part of the time, it's probably Baenre or some other ally that just shows up and eradicates them for messing up. Most of their laws are a facade and who really cares or wants to spend time on the 56th house.
And it's quite possible depending on the city setup, that founding of new settlements or cities is the custom instead of forming a house in the new hierarchy. Of course, I see the Matrons doing this under the guise of the 1st Directive of Lolth to conquer the underdark. And in reality it's the ruling council sending off troublesome daughters, hotheads, malcontents, and probably "volunteers" from houses they don't like or want to see weakened. Out of sight, out of mind and probably a death sentence either way. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 20:59:58
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Detailing out noble houses and troop strengths always drove me crazy. I'm not sure who uses or has access to the old 2E player's handbook. But I bet you could build your houses pretty easy with the followers section that classes get at level 9. Have to modify and drow them up, but I wonder if that would work. I'll have to try that and see what happens.
I've always pictured a small house as having around 50 soldiers or in that range. I'll have to give that a whirl sometime and see how it tracks. My initial guess is even mid ranking houses might have too many soldiers. But then again maybe not if we work in some attrition etc. |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2014 : 18:01:46
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Does anyone have an idea what 'Szithlin' means? Is Szith a known prefix? It seems like the suffix '-lin' is used in other words but I can't quite figure out the context. Here are the examples I've found.
ogglin = enemy
sargtlin - drow warrior
ultrin sargtlin = supreme warrior
It seems '-lin' might refer to drow or the drow society perhaps.
Any ideas?
-Eli the Tanner |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2014 : 18:23:35
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szith - ten
lin is a little harder, I find it as prefix only for these words:
linath - song
linathen - songs
lince'sa - pet
linddil - lizardman
lindua - sings
linoin - west
lintaguth - platter
linth'el - cauldron
linthar - bard
lintharen - bards
linthel - melody
linthelea - melodious
linthelen - melodies
linthre - brazier |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 22 Apr 2014 18:24:26 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2014 : 12:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
ogglin = enemy
sargtlin - drow warrior
ultrin sargtlin = supreme warrior
It seems '-lin' might refer to drow or the drow society perhaps.
Maybe it means "warrior" (and they see enemies as opposing warriors). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Untouched Drow Cities
