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scuda
Acolyte
36 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 16:45:40
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Greetings,
I have been doing some major research on Monks and Ki, related to Forgotten Realms. Mostly having to do with 2.0 through 3.5e.
What I am trying is to find the best or more plausible explanation for Ki power(s) of the Monk class. It seems to have been developed to be essentially a form of martial art + psionic power, from what I can tell.
What do you think about Ki and how it should be explained? I am toying with the idea of starting a Monk Order within a campaign, but I want this order to be focused on pure discipline, concentration and the increase of Ki amongst the Order, and not as most Monk orders are setup in FR, as devoted to one God or another (essentially, the God worshiped by the Monk comes second to the focus on Ki development).
Thanks in advance for your help.
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 17:14:55
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You're right in thinking that [i]Ki[i] is a manifestation of psionic focus. It's channelled straight into martial prowess however and isn't useful for generating Power Points or manifesting.
I had a player who once tried to do what you're thinking of RE monks. She placed their abbey in the Desertsmouth Mountains. The monks that came out of it were interesting but she decided to make her character from that abbey a Monk/Psychic Warrior/Haztaratain and ended up missing a lot of attack rolls due to the BaB degredation from three middle-tier BaB classes.
The Forgotten Realms isn't a great setting for psionics outside of the Underdark in my opinion however. Maybe you should think about your order being active in the Upperdark. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
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scuda
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2014 : 19:30:54
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Thanks for the response. I am actually NOT INTERESTED in psionics, at all. But, I want to get a good, lore-based and plausible reason for Ki...beyond some semi-spiritual manifestation of Will.
Or, maybe that IS the best way to describe it. Also, I wish to remove the idea that a Monk is a Eastern race, but more of a Wisdom-powered martial fighterthough still, one cannot forgot the Ki which is the "force" behind the abilities. |
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ZeshinX
Learned Scribe
Canada
210 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2014 : 15:39:20
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I find Monks (or the sort presented as they are in D&D) are very much rooted in the Eastern tradition (i.e. Shaolin-esque, Oriental themed). I've always found them horrendously misplaced in more medieval-Europe themed settings. Western-themed monks always seemed more the cloistered Cleric types to me.
Frankly, I think the best approach is perhaps make the Monk Order a spin-off of an Eastern monastery from Kara Tur. Over time their overall mentality and social customs blended with and came to mirror Faerun's own cultures. Perhaps these monks learned that Ki is as much emotional as it is strictly spiritual. A disciplined and willful mind can achieve great (and terrible) things, but emotion is also a core motivator for mortal behavior and thus can power just as many great (and terrible) things. |
"...because despite the best advice of those who know what they are talking about, other people insist on doing the most massively stupid things."
-Galen, technomage |
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scuda
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 08:48:05
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Yes, monks have always been an oddball class for D&D, except for when Oriental Adventures came around.
Myself, I like to focus on the Ki power as an aspect of intuitive fighting style. With wisdom as the base, it has its own unique power over pure strength of dexterity and finesse.
Even the medieval monks used chanting, prayer, focus and hermetic ways to channel a certain fortitude in the worship of god. There is a small means to take that more realistic aspect of monk-ness, and weave it into a fighting-monk version for the non-eastern monk class aspect of D&D rules.
Definitely need to focus on the disciplined mind aspect, over all else. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2388 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 09:09:55
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quote:
Originally posted by scuda
Ki power(s) of the Monk class. It seems to have been developed to be essentially a form of martial art + psionic power, from what I can tell.
Yup. Or, more accurately, psionics (before d20 weirdness) was partially taken from the same sources.
Either way, it's an internal power, so by 2e classification it's psionics.
quote:
What do you think about Ki and how it should be explained?
I'm not even sure what do you mean under "explained" - let alone why this would be necessary.
As to useable game model, in 2e it fits in psionics splendidly, and a few Psionicist kits (e.g. in The Will and the Way) were more or less Monk equivalents.
In 3e, enough of custom classes, including variant tried to make private version of psionics model that isn't pants-on-the-head loonie stuff with crystals on tiny legs dancing on it and overrunning planescape, as d20 srd/3e handbook psionics. The problem is, of course, that it's not an unified model, so it tend to degenerate into "N times per day" and suchlike.
And if someone would try to make "renewed AD&D2 psionics" from scratch, they probably won't do it for d20, due to general lameness of its mechanics. |
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And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2014 : 12:46:28
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| I used to think of monks as only "Eastern flavored". However, I can see monk monasteries fitting in anywhere where the idea of mental control / meditation / studying can be found. So, for instance, in the very psionically oriented Vilhon Reach area, I could see monks. I could see monks in Thay, Mulhorand, and Telflamm. I could see monks in Halruaa and amongst the people of the Shaar. I could see monks in Calimshan and Silverymoon. I can even see the monks in the remote fastness of the galena mountains, as they are separate from the society surrounding them. However, I don't see an order of monks fitting in in places like Cormyr, Tethyr, etc.... unless they're some remote sect that is barely involved with the society. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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scuda
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2014 : 11:45:34
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| A further query to the sages: would one consider Ki power to derive from the Weave? As do divine powers, essentially? Or, should Ki be considered a truly mortal or unique power source, in the vein of psionics (though I so dislike psionics). |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2014 : 13:23:09
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| Based on everything I read about (mostly from 1e and 2e, but a bit from other editions, I'd say it is not linked to the weave. Personally, I connect it with psionics, as other materials I read, but I'm not sure this information is canonized. FR 2e boxed set, when it talks about Kara-Tur, tells that "Many stories that cannot be placed elsewhere are said to come 'from Kara-Tur when the world was still new'. The more amazing of the tales, of mortals passing through walls without magic, steam-breathing dragons, or warriors with hidden powers, are easily discounted or explained. However, it remains that the lands of Kara-Tur are very much unlike the native Realms." |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
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(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2014 : 13:38:36
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I'm not so familiar with monk-orders in the western Realms, but in the east (Kara-Tur) they are usually dedicated to a philosophy, not a god. In nearly all the eastern lands they believe in the Celestial Bureaucracy, and the only real difference between temples is their approach to those gods.
So if you applied that to the western Realms, perhaps some temples venerate the Faerūnian Pantheon, without putting any one deity above all others, which would be a very different approach from how most western churches operate. Thus, it would be like you say - less about the gods themselves, and more about the secrets they unlock by understanding the universe itself.
Ki derives purely from the psionic end of the spectrum, and has little to do with magic (although in Ed Greenwood's writings, he hints at their being a connection - Mages who also have psi powers tend to have their magical capabilities increase exponentially). So they are synergistic, but not the same.
Divine Magic does not come from The Weave - that was a mistake. Some gods (probably most before the ToT) used The Weave as an easy 'delivery system' to bring their spells to their followers without a lot of hands-on micro-management. After the ToT, when they were required by Ao to be more interactive with their worshipers, the majority of the gods stopped using this method (especially after seeing how Mystra cut-off Cyric's worshipers).
Although blending the Monk with a psionic class might seem like an obvious choice to make, you wind-up nerfing the abilities of both in the long run. A D&D Monk is a martial artist, plain and simple (although one from legend, not reality). The Monk's more esoteric abilities (in D&D) derive more from Yogi and aesthetic traditions. You could focus more on those, and although you may become better at the supernatural abilities, then that would take from your fighting prowess. Remember, a true 'holy man' is also a pacifist.
If you want to run an anime-style Monk with those cool psi powers (Naruto, etc), then I would suggest just running a psionist - there are several classes in the psi books that work well for this.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2014 : 15:05:40
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| Divine magic does come from the Weave -- it just goes through the deity, first. |
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scuda
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2014 : 15:29:42
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Yeah, I am pretty sure divine magic does come from the Weave...it is just different as to how the Deity receives the power, either from themselves, of via how many worshipers contribute to the "amount" of power.
Anyway, I an definitely going for the yogi/aesthetic tradition type monk, and less the anime-style monk or eastern monk. I think it is best to consider Ki a more psionic trait coming from Will, than an actual psionic attribute. Thanks. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2014 : 21:49:21
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dquote:
scuda
Thanks for the response. I am actually NOT INTERESTED in psionics, at all. But, I want to get a good, lore-based and plausible reason for Ki...beyond some semi-spiritual manifestation of Will.
Or, maybe that IS the best way to describe it. Also, I wish to remove the idea that a Monk is a Eastern race, but more of a Wisdom-powered martial fighterļæ½though still, one cannot forgot the Ki which is the "force" behind the abilities.
AD&D explained magic as an external force, and Realmslore tacitly reinforced the notion with its Weave construct.
But, sometime circa mid-3E, D&D began to conceptually embrace an organic magic system, wherein all external magical manifestations ultimately derive from belief. Will. Sure, it helps to have intrinsic abilities, arcane training, a divine sponsor, discipline, talent, experience, and what-have-you - but all you really need is raw willpower. Doesnāt seem unlike psionics to me.
FWIW, ki literally means ābreathā, energy said to be obtained and manipulated by focussed practitioners of the then-mystical martial arts. It became a fundamental precept of many Eastern philosophies and religions. Known by many other names, tao/mana/prana/etc, across many cultures which shared these philosophies. And emphasized spectacularly in modern martial arts entertainments. |
[/Ayrik] |
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mikie
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2014 : 19:35:00
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| Have you looked or read the 1st ed players handbook? I always felt the KI came from your internal strength. Harnessed by meditation and or movements to generate this power. You could try a "blend" of the 1st ed with the Kara Tur ed. to create a new order or temple. |
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scuda
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2014 : 12:59:52
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| I am definitely going with the "inner strength," Ki as "Breath" type of monk, but with relation to the aesthetic, more "mystic" type of wise man. Will power energy is excellent material to role-play. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 03:19:08
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-Look what the cat dragged in...
-Anyway, here's how it was explained in some of the work that Mark and I did a million years ago. All in all, very much influenced by Buddhist and Taoist concepts, melding into a Force-like construction to bridge reality and fantasy together.
quote:
In the lands east of the Dragonwall, it is said that practitioners of various martial art styles have developed different techniques that seem to stretch the human body past barriers thought impossible. Stories are told in the west of strange monks who can make themselves immune to the fiery heat of a Red Dragons breath, the arctic chill of a White Dragons breath, and even more mystical feats.
While some of these stories are a bit exaggerated, they are based on more truth than fiction. Trained monks and lamas in Imperial Shou Lung, as well as a limited number of practitioners other Eastern nations, have learned to harness their Ki, allowing them to perform feats that seem impossible for an ordinary Human to achieve. According to their belief, Ki is a mystical energy that exists within everybody and everything. By mentally breaking down the percieved barriers that separates everything in the physical world, a practitioner realizes that all is interconnected, and that physical matter can be manipulated. By learning to tap into their Ki, a practitioner can perform feats that put them on par with a magic user.
Ki does not flow freely, however. It takes years and years of practice for one to harness their Ki and perform the most basic Kata. A Kata is a supernatural ability that is brought upon by harnessing ones Ki. Ki does not flow forever, either. It is possible to exhaust ones supply of Ki. When this happens, an individual loses consciousness, and depending upon how drained an individual is, death is even possible!
Katas vary greatly, and no two are alike, it is said. Katas are taught by martial art experts. Every style of martial art emphasizes different Katas. However, one is not limited to just learning the Katas that his/her style emphasizes. One can theoretically learn every Kata in existence, no matter what martial art style he chooses.
The time it takes to successfully learn and master a Kata varies from person to person. The effectiveness of the teacher also modifies how fast a student is able to grasp a Kata. The best student with the worst teacher might never successfully learn a Kata, while the worst student with the best teacher might be able to learn.
-I don't know if you're looking for mechanics to reflect all that, but if you are, I have saved a bunch more stuff specifically for 3e fleshing all that out a lot more. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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scuda
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 09:50:53
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| That is great stuff, Lord Karsus. Yes, I would read more mechanical writing in order to infuse my more Western monk-type ideas, with substance. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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scuda
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2014 : 18:01:14
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| Yes Lord Karsus, send me a PM from my profile. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2014 : 15:04:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I used to think of monks as only "Eastern flavored". However, I can see monk monasteries fitting in anywhere where the idea of mental control / meditation / studying can be found. So, for instance, in the very psionically oriented Vilhon Reach area, I could see monks. I could see monks in Thay, Mulhorand, and Telflamm. I could see monks in Halruaa and amongst the people of the Shaar. I could see monks in Calimshan and Silverymoon. I can even see the monks in the remote fastness of the galena mountains, as they are separate from the society surrounding them. However, I don't see an order of monks fitting in in places like Cormyr, Tethyr, etc.... unless they're some remote sect that is barely involved with the society.
Well canonically there is the Monastery of the Yellow Rose in the Galena mountains. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Ki & Monks: Origin, Reference, Use
