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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 20:43:39
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quote:
Starting later this year, look for D&D’s next exciting storyline to take place, Tyranny of Dragons, with events that span the world and products across the entire spectrum of gaming.
Tyrrany of Dragons
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/dnd/tyrannyofdragons
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A white dragon plunders caravans heading north to Icewind Dale. In the Silver Marches, a scornful red dragon torches a town that refuses to pay a king’s ransom. Elsewhere, dragon-worshiping barbarians in Viking longships attack merchant vessels leaving Neverwinter, while masked heathens infiltrate a noble villa in Waterdeep, murder its lord, and steal a draconic artifact.
Dragons and their allies are threatening the Sword Coast and the North, but why now, and to what end?
This may not turn out to be an actual RSE, but it seems weird that they'd throw in this world-spanning event right now in the middle of the Sundering. It's like having the volcano explode near Neverwinter, one major cataclysmic event just isn't enough for WotC.
Did they somehow miss the message that we've had our fill of cataclysms and world-wide attacks?
I'm done. Any remaining support or hope I had for WotC is over and done with.
Good luck, Realms fans. I truly hope that Ed really can pull a rabbit out his hat and save WotC from themselves, but I'm done.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 13 Feb 2014 20:46:10
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 21:15:51
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I think this kind of thing will be the norm now. The underdark/drow based one was similar (but that was kinda "pilot" I suppose), and the adventures in Neverwinter and Baldur's Gate seem to reach for somewhere near. They're almost non-events, in the sense that stuff like that (a handful of dragons attacking people) is just supposed to happen almost normally in the Realms anyway. The difference being that these are apparently linked, so it will serve as metaplot advancement.
I didn't hear about Mount Hotenow exploding, so I can't take that one into account. But there's a huge difference between the Year of Rogue Dragons RSE, for example, that dealt with some ancient elven magic that drove almost all dragons of Faerűn periodically insane, and a dragon or ten and their cult causing trouble for the North.
I mean, you can't really talk about nations and the world if your metaplot is about a group of adventuring villagers, for instance. Don't misunderstand me, I think adventuring groups and other local stuff ought to be done too, but at some point, if you want to paint a whole continent alive, you'll need a few bigger brushstrokes.
If the previous events are anything to go about, the "incoming dooooom!" talk is 99% to make the event more attractive for gaming and get quick attention, and almost nothing described as the goals of the cult will actually happen. It's kind of funny really, now they talk like they're blowing up the Realms but don't, whereas just before 4e (well, started crreping up a while before that) they were all shush and then blew up the Realms. I guess they figured an U-turn might be a good idea... we'll see. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 13 Feb 2014 21:29:31 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 21:29:07
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It's not just that it's a big thing affecting several nations.
I may be missing something from 4E, but weren't the Cult of the Dragon and the Church of Tiamat actually enemies?
I'm relying on memory and old edition material, but I'm pretty sure they were at odds. Also that the Church of Tiamat wasn't really known much at all outside of Unther. And well, wasn't Unther vaporized by the Spellplague anyway?
Why would Tiamat suddenly be revered by a group that was it's enemy in the Realms, particularly if the region she was worshiped was nuked out of existence?
This just makes zero sense for the Realms.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 21:40:51
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I'm still waiting for the hyper-Sundering Uberplague of Dragonspelled Fiend-Drow!
Now THAT is an RSE, baby!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1844 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 22:23:12
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Yeah this plot is being met with much skepticism and I don't blame folks. I'm waiting to see how they play the story out before making a final decision on what to do.
But, HONESTLY, WotC...it makes no sense for this plot to exist outside of the Bloodstone Lands or Unther/Chessenta areas. Seriously. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 22:57:00
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I just hope this is a faction of the Cult of the Dragon, maybe even the current dominant group of the entire organization. Then once all the sword swinging and fireballs die down, they can still keep the classic Cult we're all used to. This would allow us to keep both versions of the Cult, though I've never been a fan of Tiamat because it feels like Dragonlance instead of the Realms.
At the end of the 1300's (think that's the right era), we had lots of meteors rain down across Faerun containing dragon eggs. We don't have a Draco Rage Mythal anymore to keep the dragons from controlling everything and forming empires. So I can kind of see how a dragon empire would be a dream of some dragons.
I do picture swarms of hatchlings overrunning a caravan, or breaking into a merchant home to find their artifacts or gather treasure etc. To me that sounds more fun than 42 full grown dragons laying waste to the entire Sword Coast. Sure there will be the classic older wyrms, but you get the idea.
The press release makes me a bit nervous too, but the whole Rise of the Underdark gave the impression of massive war with the drow. And well, they were just adventures that didn't seem very world-exploding-into-flames to me. If that's the case, I'm sure things will work out just fine.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 22:58:34
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The problem here, I think, is that somewhere along the way WotC decided that RSE = Adventure Path.
It doesn't.
An Adventure Path is a player-driven story that revolves around the RPG setting. An RSE is a novel-character driven story of (purportedly) 'epic proportions', which has zero impact on the setting five minutes after its over, and is merely designed to 'push product'.
Adventure Paths are good, and I would love to see them do those, but this ISN'T the way it should go. The only thing in-common the two have is that neither actually 'shakes up' anything at all, in the greater scheme of things (with two exceptions - the ToT and the Spellplague, which were the only real RSE's we had). Everything else was just another storyline.
In fact... come to think of it... they are doing pretty-much what they should be doing on the adventure end. Its their promotional spin that completely sucks (because they come-off like RSE's, but they aren't). I think all they really need at this point is someone who knows how to write a decent blurb. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Feb 2014 22:59:26 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 23:58:06
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About Tiamat and the Cult of the Dragon... Page 134 of Powers & Pantheons:
quote:
As her first step toward achieving these goals, Tiamat has targeted the Cult of the Dragon for incorporation into the ranks of her worshipers. The Dragon Queen views this powerful organization with tentacles stretching throughout Faerűn as a godless sect awaiting the adoption of an appropriate divine patron such as herself. She has recently manifested one avatar as the Undying Queen in response to the please of one member of the Cult of the Dragon (who thought he was calling upon the "essence of all dracoliches") and has begun setting herself up to be the first deity to be worshiped by the previously secular Cult as a while. Although she expects significant resistance from the Dragon Cult's entrenched leaders, she expects her followers to infiltrate and co-opt the Cult's vast network over the next decade, elevating her further to intermediate power status in the Realms.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Feb 2014 23:58:38 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1844 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 00:16:46
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| Don't forget she brought Sammaster back as well (briefly anyway). |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 02:49:06
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Originally posted by Markustay
The problem here, I think, is that somewhere along the way WotC decided that RSE = Adventure Path.
It doesn't.
An Adventure Path is a player-driven story that revolves around the RPG setting. An RSE is a novel-character driven story of (purportedly) 'epic proportions', which has zero impact on the setting five minutes after its over, and is merely designed to 'push product'.
Well, kind of. But "Adventure Path" is just a name, as is "RSE" (a heavily loaded one in this case). WotC isn't doing the same thing as Paizo, and there's no reason they should, really, as their products are not fungible. They aren't doing the same thing as they've grown used to either, though admittedly they kept several concepts around (I think few people would want them throwing everything out, anyhow). There's still going to be novels and there's still going to be adventures, but they'll be a little different, or that's what it's looking like so far.
The big question that stands for me is "are there going to be sourcebooks?" Partially since I think they are the core of what makes the setting grow into whatever it does. Writing sourcebooks means the designers have to take the big picture into account more often, and a stream of sourcebooks ends up guiding everything else they do. The first thing that comes to many peoples' minds when thinking of the setting may be the novels or the adventures, but the design decisions that have to be made when creating a sourcebook is what shapes the directions taken. Sure, often the sourcebook is made with novels and adventures in mind - because ultimately these are what most people are interested in. But the development of sourcebooks is when focus usually changes. That kind of thing doesn't come from the novels, rather, the novel writers are told to stick to the ideas laid when creating the sourcebooks. Adventures are somewhere in between, but they too tend to follow the decision process that's done for the setting as a whole.
Now, that's the way WotC had been doing it for a long time. Paizo also seems to be following this creative process, though they adapted it a bit for their product. We don't know, however, what WotC is going to do now, thus the big question. 4e almost completely broke with this format, I think - the FRCG was kind of the sourcebook to end all sourcebooks. It felt very final, offered little room for further exploration by the designers and was simple to the point of being called dumbed-down. I feel like that was meant to provide a stable framework for novels (and adventures, but especially novels) so the only things a writer would be constrained by when doing his/her work would be that simple little book, so theoretically they could churn out novels quicker. And then you had the Player's Guide, which was essentially a rulebook, not a campaign book (most of the campaign information it contains is just the player version of what's in the FRCG). That design decision that went into writing the FRCG is what made 4e FR what is was - as anyone who's DMed or played a 4e campaign in 3e Faerűn can attest, there's nothing very incompatible about these two things. 4e rules can be applied to the 3e Realms with very little effort and maybe a dash of hand-waving. The PoL argument for large-scale (effective) erasure of lore is so nonsensical that you only have to look at the fact that the first PoL campaign they did (Scales of War) was essentially set in 3e Channathvale, or what it could be if it was taken on a slightly different path, to see the absurdity of it.
I also think that was all done with a clear aim of maximising profits, and it seems to have failed. Someone here pointed out it's like a big hardware store that decides they won't sell planks anymore because they make more profit on nails - then everyone goes shopping at the store where they can get both the planks and the nails in the same place.
Finally, the other reason I care is because I'm largely uninterested in novels and completely uninterested in adventures, except insofar as they provide some new lore. So if the Realms are driven solely by these meta-events instead of sourcebooks, I'm probably sticking to hearing about the overall development here in these boards, because I'll not go to the trouble of buying and reading something I don't enjoy just to see what's new in the Realms. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 14 Feb 2014 22:24:31 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 19:34:59
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The way I see it is that WotC needs a big project to occupy and focus its staff, as well as giving a singular task for its freelancers rather than having them work on separate projects now that the Dungeon and Dragon periodicals are on hiatus.
Basically, it's a team building exercise to coincide with the release of 5e that they hope will also sell well. To justify the resources being expended, they have to make the project suitably big but it's not an RSE, so they can also maintain focus on a popular [profitable] area of the Realms - the Savage Frontier. It's also an appropriate way to test the longevity of their Neverwinter 'Campaign Setting'. As if politics, thayan undead, netheril, orcs, drow, Shadowfell incursions, aboleths, devils, pirates, rebels, elementals and the resurgence of a neighbouring elven state weren't enough, they decided to throw in some dragons too.
I don't know how successful it's going to be financially. I, like most sages, don't seem to think like WotC's apparent target audience so I can't say if there's going to be a big demand for this kind of thing. If I'm right then they've certainly had worse ideas but if I'm wrong then this is not the way I would have chosen to go forward.
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When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2014 : 23:22:46
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Methinks ye be mistaken, Markus. WotC never decided that “RSE = Adventure Path“. They instead discovered that “RSE = Trilogy/Rulebook/Module Sales Revenue“.
It‘s sadly very difficult for plain old stuffy Gygaxian D&D to compete for a new audience in today‘s world of ever-inflationary distractions. They gotta spectacularly blow things up and bring in more crazy auctorial circus freaks in every new product ... simply because that‘s what all the competitors do as a matter of course. Even ye olde Lord of the Rings and Conan movies (formative D&D influences) have been remade as impressive visceral CGI epics full of implausible megaheroic characters and their unbelievably stylized competence.
But the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Szass Tam: “Mwoohaha, I shall pwn the world with my evil plans!“
Misc Heroes: “Omg, we gotta stop Szassy‘s evil plans!“
Treacherous Zulkirs: “We must betray each other later!“
Munchkin PC: “Heehee, I‘m a Shadovar Drow Ranger/Archmage!“
(World suddenly turns upside-down)
(Fast-forward 100 years)
Szass Tam: “Mwoohaha, I shall pwn the world with my evil plans!“
Misc Heroes: “Omg, we gotta stop Szassy‘s evil plans!“
Treacherous Zulkirs: “We must betray each other later!“
Munchkin PC: “Heehee, I‘m a Spelltouched Dragonborn Warlock/Assassin!“ |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Feb 2014 23:39:33 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 01:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Methinks ye be mistaken, Markus. WotC never decided that “RSE = Adventure Path“. They instead discovered that “RSE = Trilogy/Rulebook/Module Sales Revenue“.
It‘s sadly very difficult for plain old stuffy Gygaxian D&D to compete for a new audience in today‘s world of ever-inflationary distractions. They gotta spectacularly blow things up and bring in more crazy auctorial circus freaks in every new product ... simply because that‘s what all the competitors do as a matter of course. Even ye olde Lord of the Rings and Conan movies (formative D&D influences) have been remade as impressive visceral CGI epics full of implausible megaheroic characters and their unbelievably stylized competence.
But the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Szass Tam: “Mwoohaha, I shall pwn the world with my evil plans!“
Misc Heroes: “Omg, we gotta stop Szassy‘s evil plans!“
Treacherous Zulkirs: “We must betray each other later!“
Munchkin PC: “Heehee, I‘m a Shadovar Drow Ranger/Archmage!“
(World suddenly turns upside-down)
(Fast-forward 100 years)
Szass Tam: “Mwoohaha, I shall pwn the world with my evil plans!“
Misc Heroes: “Omg, we gotta stop Szassy‘s evil plans!“
Treacherous Zulkirs: “We must betray each other later!“
Munchkin PC: “Heehee, I‘m a Spelltouched Dragonborn Warlock/Assassin!“
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That made my day :) |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1844 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 04:45:06
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quote:
Methinks ye be mistaken, Markus. WotC never decided that “RSE = Adventure Path“. They instead discovered that “RSE = Trilogy/Rulebook/Module Sales Revenue“.
It‘s sadly very difficult for plain old stuffy Gygaxian D&D to compete for a new audience in today‘s world of ever-inflationary distractions. They gotta spectacularly blow things up and bring in more crazy auctorial circus freaks in every new product ... simply because that‘s what all the competitors do as a matter of course. Even ye olde Lord of the Rings and Conan movies (formative D&D influences) have been remade as impressive visceral CGI epics full of implausible megaheroic characters and their unbelievably stylized competence.
If this be true then why has Pathfinder been so successful? Granted, they can't exactly be labeled 'Gygaxian' in their approach...but they don't blow up their campaign and have (rather successfully) kept their world 'non epic' by most DnD standards.
I know its unreasonable to expect WotC to mirror Paizo...but they needn't fall back on their old ways to be successful either. Just me two coppers, YMMV. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 17:16:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Szass Tam: “Mwoohaha, I shall pwn the world with my evil plans!“
Misc Heroes: “Omg, we gotta stop Szassy‘s evil plans!“
Treacherous Zulkirs: “We must betray each other later!“
Munchkin PC: “Heehee, I‘m a Shadovar Drow Ranger/Archmage!“
(World suddenly turns upside-down)
(Fast-forward 100 years)
Szass Tam: “Mwoohaha, I shall pwn the world with my evil plans!“
Misc Heroes: “Omg, we gotta stop Szassy‘s evil plans!“
Treacherous Zulkirs: “We must betray each other later!“
Munchkin PC: “Heehee, I‘m a Spelltouched Dragonborn Warlock/Assassin!“
This describes 3.5E and 4E Realms to a T.
For the pre-5E Sundering, it'd go like this:
Szass Tam: "Mwoohaha, I shall pwn the world with my evil plans, and I'll put my bony fingers into every single region for no particular reason!"
Misc Heroes: "Omg, Szassy has evil plans! But there are a gazillon Chosen who could do random god-powery things at any moment, and some of them are eeeebils too!"
Treacherous Zulkirs: "Meh. Betrayal is for the living. PSYCH, us too! HAHAHA!"
Munchkin PC: "Heehee, I'm a spellscarred psionic half-genasi/half-deva Wizard/Rogue/Cleric/Warrior and Chosen of a returning deity!"
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Lilianviaten
Senior Scribe
489 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 03:38:54
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Yall are nuts. Szass Tam has been awesome in 4e. Now you may not like the nuking of Thay, but it sets up so many interesting possibilities. The exiled Thayans are going to come back (when they inevitably retake Thay) with all sorts of new magic from other lands. Culturally, Thay will be diverse and unique once all these farflung exiles resettle it.
Also, Thay had been the same for a while. I thought the change was bold and interesting. I doubt it was ever intended to be permanent, but it built Szass Tam into an awesome threat. It served the added purpose of bolstering Bane as a villain. Given Shar's coming fall, and the HUGE gains Bane has made recently, he's almost certain to be a top threat in 5e. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 13:28:51
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Veering from the main topic a bit here. I understand your point Lilianviaten. I hated what they did to Thay, but I don't think it was necessarily a bad plot device (raising the fricking plateau a few kilometres, though, for example, was just silly). And I'll like to see Szass dealing with the exiles and vice-versa.
I do disagree with your impression that it wasn't meant to be permanent, though. I think the whole 4e setting smells of permanency and stillness. They just later figured it was a bad idea and decided to move on regardless. Of course we're talking impressions and no one from WotC will ever come here and say "oh, yeah, you were right" to either of us, so it's just idle speculation. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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Hey, we heard you liked RSEs
