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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1844 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 20:11:28
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I just had a thought about the Wall, but first a couple of comments from past threads that I agree with...
The wall is basically evil in nature. This is from a debate in a past thread were folks were trying to determine why Kel would keep it around.
There is more to Jergal than meets the eye. Kel should be able to crush him yes? But he doesn't. Another thread suggested that Jergal has control over many of the 'servants' in Kel's court. It would stand to reason that this was the case when Myrkul reigned as well. I'm very intrigued by this notion btw. Jergal is a very mysterious deity to have given up a great deal of his power and yet never been subsumed by another deity.
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Now to my musings. What if the Wall traps the souls of the Faithless for use in something else? The spirit energy gained could accomplish a great number of things such as...
Anchoring the Weave throughout Realmspace
Actually boosting the energy of the Weave (this possibility came to mind from an episode of Full Metal Alchemist in which it was discovered that alchemy used soul energy from our Earth to power the magic in the that anime setting).
What if the souls in the Wall are tied to the walkers on the Crystal Sphere?
And my personal favorite...what if Jergal is the only one who can siphon that energy? For what purpose? Certainly as a way of maintaining his position with Kel (or whomever, I don't think he cares who the God of the Dead is...so long as Jergal is free to do whatever mysterious stuff he's up to). I mean, giving up all that power was really just a way of allowing himself more time to do whatever he working on. Perhaps it gives him tremendous power, enough to overthrow Kel if he wants/needs to. But, more importantly, perhaps he is storing that energy for something else. If so, what?
WHAT? Please share your thoughts.
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2014 : 21:29:26
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According to canon, the Wall traps the souls of the Faithless in order to protect the rest from being snatched from the Fugue by demons.
And it's hardly evil in nature. Sure, when Cyric was the god of the Dead, he tortured the Faithless. I don't remember if they had the concept well-established when Myrkul was in charge. But now the souls mostly just stay there for a while and get dissolved into nothingness, which is usually much better than to be dragged to the Abyss, for example. In comparison, the False really do get the stick, being indentured servants for eternity (or until something out of the ordinary happens in the Fugue).
Look at afterlife under Kelemvor this way. Caring about your soul after you die is one of the major services gods offer to mortals. If they didn't do that, we can only conjecture what would happen, but likely answers are massive kidnapping by demons, wandering the planes aimlessly for eternity and manifesting in the Prime as tormented ghosts. Now, the gods tend to demand worship in return for that service, since worship makes them stronger. They usually give other boons to those who worship them too, but that's beside the point. So if you outright refuse to worship any god and go to any of their domains, they see fit to use your soul to protect the others and ultimately destroy it, instead of leaving it there to make trouble for the rest of the multiverse. Of course, under Kelemvor you don't actually need to worship the gods in life. You actually have another chance after you die to choose which god will take care of your soul, you just need to reach out to them. Some souls are still dead-set on making themselves and the multiverse miserable because of whatever reasons, though, so at that point Kelemvor says "No, sorry, can't do that. I've got an important mission for you instead and you can't say no, I'm afraid." - bam, to the Wall.
So there's scarcely anything better Kelemvor could do for the Faithless, except destroy their souls immediately. Since the whole point is they don't want to go to any of the deities' domains... and they probably don't want to go the Abyss either, or they'd have made some kind of pact in life to ensure that. They might want to drift away in the multiverse, lost, but most probably have no idea of what that means (and many gods will allow their petitioners to go out of their domains anyhow... some will require some form of service, others will basically let the petitioner do whatever they want as long as they don't oppose the god directly). In the absolutely worst case the Wall under Kel is about as evil as drafting the soul into a kind of temporary military service where they might draw the short straw and end up torn from the wall and captured by demons... but they likely would have a much higher chance of suffering that fate if they were just prancing around. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
Edited by - Mapolq on 12 Feb 2014 21:40:38 |
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Milith holder of HB8
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 17:42:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I just had a thought about the Wall, but first a couple of comments from past threads that I agree with...
The wall is basically evil in nature. This is from a debate in a past thread were folks were trying to determine why Kel would keep it around.
He didn't. Kelemvor got rid of that thing the first day of office (well, maybe not literally...). When Kelemvor took over as God of the Dead, he decided that people would be judged by their deeds (ie, alignment) rather than their faith. Later, when Kelemvor realized the negative impact this was having on the realms, he changed it so that those who were False or Faithless wouldn't suffer--but wouldn't be given an eternal reward. They would be stuck in a world of eternal gloom.
He did however, transform the walls around his city to be one single giant mirror, one which showed the viewer's character flaws.
quote:
There is more to Jergal than meets the eye. Kel should be able to crush him yes? But he doesn't. Another thread suggested that Jergal has control over many of the 'servants' in Kel's court. It would stand to reason that this was the case when Myrkul reigned as well. I'm very intrigued by this notion btw. Jergal is a very mysterious deity to have given up a great deal of his power and yet never been subsumed by another deity.
Jergal is a demipower, it isn't uncommon for Greater Powers like Kelemvor to be served by lesser powers such as Jergal. And since Jergal has no desire to usurp Kelemvor, there really isn't a point to destroying Jergal, since Jergal is a valuable resource. |
Hey, babe, see my shiny teeth as I smile my very best wolf smile- Ed Greenwood. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1844 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2014 : 22:29:09
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quote:
He didn't. Kelemvor got rid of that thing the first day of office (well, maybe not literally...). When Kelemvor took over as God of the Dead, he decided that people would be judged by their deeds (ie, alignment) rather than their faith. Later, when Kelemvor realized the negative impact this was having on the realms, he changed it so that those who were False or Faithless wouldn't suffer--but wouldn't be given an eternal reward. They would be stuck in a world of eternal gloom.
This is true, I had forgotten that the 'nature' of the wall had been adjusted.
quote:
Jergal is a demipower, it isn't uncommon for Greater Powers like Kelemvor to be served by lesser powers such as Jergal. And since Jergal has no desire to usurp Kelemvor, there really isn't a point to destroying Jergal, since Jergal is a valuable resource.
This still does not attend to the mysteriousness of said demipower. I don't buy the "I'm tired of all these responsibilities...therefore the three of you (Bane, Myrkul, Bhaal) can have my powers" explanation. There has to be more to it than that. Just my opinion, of course.
This is mainly for my homebrew explanation anyway. I see Jergal as siphoning 'soul energy' from the Wall to power some other scheme. Not saying I will ever use it (or even flesh it out at all) but that just where I'm at with it...because it's interesting to me. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Venomus
Acolyte
Poland
13 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2014 : 20:08:30
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Well there was a theory that Jergal has given up his powers to The Dead Three (can we still call them that knowing 2 out of 3 are back?), to not share Amanuators fate (falling into obscurity...or changing his name to Lathander. Who knew?). And mayby now is the time he wants it all back. Like this instant, Kel.
It would shine some new light on ol' Jergal as a schemer looking centuries into the future with his "investment". |
"Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient be sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me." - Myrkul |
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
160 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2014 : 13:05:14
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since this is the most interesting topic up atm...
You should remember too, that just because a creature didn't 'pick a religion or faith, or being faithless' that they don't end up somewhere else on the planes. There are lots of gods and god-like creatures who conduct souls through-out the multiverse regardless of faith. When you die in a fantasy world, there is no telling where your soul will end up. Say for example you die in the woods after a bear eats your face. There is a possible change that Malar was so impressed by your screams that he decided to bring you to his hunting grounds and let you roam the wilds and hunt you down for sport every other Wednesday. Or maybe, being faithless, after the bear shits in the woods, Silvanus uses the feces to grow a new oak tree and in turn, your soul/energy whatever, gets recycled back into the wheel of fate. If you have a soul at all. I mean really, if we gave every kobold and orc a soul there would be a line stretching into the lower abyss and ain't nobody god time for that. ;P
I guess my point is, don't take things so literal. There is wiggle room for a reason.
Onto Jergal...Obviously he is creepy because he's supposed to be creepy. but come on man, don't fear the reaper. |
"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 04:29:50
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Chad, even the orcs and kobolds have souls, and they have their respective deities. In the Realms, there is a sense of certainty as to where your soul will go. The majority (and I realize there are exceptions) of souls end up in the realm of either their patron deity, or, if they don't have one, the god that best coincides with their ideology. Only those who truly defied the gods, not even giving them lip service, and continue to do so even after they die, are put on the Wall. This is stated in Elminster's Forgotten Realms.
For the demi-humans (elves, dwarves, etc), most go to the realm of their pantheon--the elves to Arvandor, the dwarves, to Dwarfhome, and so forth, unless the individual specifically worships a deity outside of their racial pantheon. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1844 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2014 : 12:10:18
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quote:
Jergal is a demipower, it isn't uncommon for Greater Powers like Kelemvor to be served by lesser powers such as Jergal. And since Jergal has no desire to usurp Kelemvor, there really isn't a point to destroying Jergal, since Jergal is a valuable resource.
This is true, but I don't see Jergal giving his power to the Three strictly on the honor system. It seems far more likely that he had an Ace up his sleeve just in case one of them (especially Myrkul) turned on him for more power.
Anyway, the thread seems to have quickly gone off topic. Does anyone have ideas based on my OP? Canon is not a concern for me in this case. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Musings About the Wall of the Faithless
