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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Jan 2014 : 17:03:48
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I couldn't find any population figure for the three Shining Lands and i could use some help in finding a source that gives them or doing some guesswork.
Thanks!
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2014 : 06:24:53
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| Yes, south east Faerun always gets the least attention and it's a damned shame too. The best any source I know of can give you is the combined population of the settlements in 1367 DR. These figures would be found in The Shining South (1993) - though Shining South (2004) increased the population of Orvyltar in Ulgarth by 1,000. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 14:08:49
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The problem here is that in 3e we are given very few settlements of those lands (5, of which one is without population listed), going by the "settlements times 10" method in 3e gives us a total of 1445780 for the whole Shining Lands, barely 100000 more than Cormyr that's far smaller and way poorer as a nation.
Using 2e sources we get to a total of 2440000 that sounds more like it (close to Amn's population and Amn is the most similar country of western Faerun for society, lifestyle and richness). Still a little on the low side given that Amn is smaller than the Shining Lands and then we are not counting the changes made by 3e (Klionna turned Chavyondat and got a boost of almost 3x, Thruldar disappeared, etc...)
Mixing the sources (2e + the changes made by 3e) we get to a total of 2895780, almost the same as Amn. The really surprising bit here is that Estagund is more populated than Var (774890 VS 623890), surprising because Estagund ha no natural defenses against Veldorn attacks while Var is dubbed "the Golden" for its wheat fields. Probably more surprising is that Luiren is more populated than both (838080 as per the 3e FRCS, them hins are like rabbits!).
Anyway, i'm satisfied with the method you suggested Mapolq, thanks for chiming in. I think the whole population should be more than 3 Mil and that Var needs a boost above Estagund and Luiren but i can work with these numbers. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 18:53:56
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I find the 3e values fairly consistent over the whole continent, but well on the low side (they give Faerūn a population of 60 million civilised beings, give or take). In my campaign I say the values given usually don't include children or slaves, meaning they usually amount to a rather low estimate of the total population of most places. This brings the figures more in line with the world as I see it... Faerūn is very integrated and globalised, so I imagine some major cities like Calimport with populations around 500,000 instead of the figures we're given in 3e for example.
Doing cross-editions estimates is tricky because the designers retconned the figures a LOT in some areas. As I said, I generally like the 3e balance with a few reservations. Don't we have population figures for the Shining Lands in the 3e Shining South supplement? I don't have my books here right now. In any case, about 3 million seems okay to me in comparison with other lands, so your way of doing it would work. =) Also, it makes sense that the larger, more cosmopolitan Durpar would be the most populous, followed by Estagund and then rural Var. The sense I get from Var is that it's the granary of the south, so it probably supplies grain to the neighboring states but isn't that populated itself. Plus it's quite small.
Luiren being a little under a million sounds good as well. Remember, being small means you use less land and resources and do less work per individual! Even with a larger population, it might have less "power" than either Estagund or Var. |
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Edited by - Mapolq on 05 Jan 2014 19:09:28 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 19:20:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Doing cross-editions estimates is tricky because the designers retconned the figures a LOT in some areas. As I said, I generally like the 3e balance with a few reservations. Don't we have population figures for the Shining Lands in the 3e Shining South supplement? I don't have my books here right now.
I know but 3e just gives us 5 cities for the Shining Lands, all in Shining South: Assur, Chavyondat, Ormpé, Pyratar and Vaelan. Worse, Vaelan has no population number so i gave it the minimum for a metropolis (since its listed as that). On the other hand 2e Shining South gives us 13 cities (2 without numbers) so the guesswork has a better starting point working with the 2e numbers.
I had to make the following changes based on the 3e evolution:
- Klionna (2e) is named Chavyondat in 3e and got from 25000 to 67489;
- Ormpé got nuked from 20000 to 4500;
- Thruldar belonged to Estagund in 2e but in 3e it's a Luiren haunted and sealed settlement so its 9000 citizens went poof;
- Pyratar remained stable with 45000 citizens in 2e and 44389 in 3e;
Given that i got to close to 3 Mil this way (compared to the 1,4 Mil using only 3e sources) i felt satisfied with mixing the datas from the different editions.
quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
In any case, about 3 million seems okay to me in comparison with other lands, so your way of doing it would work. =) Also, it makes sense that the larger, more cosmopolitan Durpar would be the most populous, followed by Estagund and then rural Var. The sense I get from Var is that it's the granary of the south, so it probably supplies grain to the neighboring states but isn't that populated itself. Plus it's quite small.
Luiren being a little under a million sounds good as well. Remember, being small means you use less land and resources and do less work per individual! Even with a larger population, it might have less "power" than either Estagund or Var.
Agreed on all counts. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2014 : 19:49:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Mapolq
Remember, being small means you use less land and resources and do less work per individual!
I agree that fewer people less land needed. I am though confused about less work per individual. Maybe I missed a context. A Hamlet of 20 people have the residents, having to be Watch, Farmers, Craft men, Herders and so on. The small often requires more work per individual in my estimation. |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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Population figures for the Shining Lands (1374)
