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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 07:39:10
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Okay all my fellow sages, I have finally started reading my Icewind Dale trilogy over this weekend. I am nearly done with the first book and am very interested in everything going on. Mainly with why Crenshinibon chose such Akar Kessell to work it's machinations. I mean, I understand Akar is a bit of simpleton and power hungry to become a great sorcerer. I am just more curious. Not to mention the fascination over Aegis-Fang, and why Bruenor gave it to Wulfgar. A deeper reason? Maybe I shall find out in the next novels? After all it's the GREATEST most powerful work of Bruenor. Anyway, discussions and reviews are much appreciated!
After I have read the other two I shall do similar review/discussions as these are new to me. I haven't decided to read them for a very long time, Ed Greenwoods works keep me busy it seems.
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" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
Edited by - Alruane on 24 Dec 2013 07:41:56
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 11:53:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Alruane
Okay all my fellow sages, I have finally started reading my Icewind Dale trilogy over this weekend. I am nearly done with the first book and am very interested in everything going on.
This is still my favorite Drizzt book. I look back on it fondly with nostalgic feelings, for it was my very first.
quote:
Mainly with why Crenshinibon chose such Akar Kessell to work it's machinations. I mean, I understand Akar is a bit of simpleton and power hungry to become a great sorcerer. I am just more curious.
It was coincidence that brought the Shard and the simplelton together in the first place. When al Dimeneira threw the Shard across the planes, I don't think he knew where it would eventually end up. It happened to end up, way up in the mountains of the Spine of the World, where it lay for an untold amount of time.
There probably were other candidates who accidentally stumbled across the Shard there in that stretch of the mountain chain. It didn't sound like Kessell was dumped all that far away from the main pass in the mountains. Surely others have gone up there before, if for no other reason than to admire the view.
But perhaps no other mountain climber displayed any aptitude for magic, before? Perhaps Kessell, bumbling fool that he was, was the first magic user to stumble through there, and that is why the Shard finally decided to go into action?
I also wonder why no other Luskan wizards appear to have visited Icewind Dale in the five years since Kessell first arrived there. If any more proficient mages had come to the area, surely the Shard would've tried to bump Kessell off and get into the possession of the better mage.
Instead, it went slumming with an idiot wizard's apprentice, and stayed there for years, until he buried it beneath even more snow. Nice!
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Not to mention the fascination over Aegis-Fang, and why Bruenor gave it to Wulfgar. A deeper reason?
We're never given the reason. Bruenor simply did it, in the books. He knew that Wulf's five-year term of indenture was coming to an end, and then he made his masterpiece weapon and gave it to the barbarian.
I have speculated that the warhammer may also have been and [EDIT: an] eighteenth birthday present. The next book, Streams of Silver, says that Wulfgar is 18 the following spring. That is an important age for the barbarians, according to Passage to Dawn.
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Maybe I shall find out in the next novels? After all it's the GREATEST most powerful work of Bruenor.
Nope, no other explanation has been given.
What I want to know is why Bruenor did NOT do anything like this for Catti-brie. Favoritism? Sexism? I think it's a very interesting oversight on the part of the dwarf king . . . |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 24 Dec 2013 19:39:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 15:18:52
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
What I want to know is why Bruenor did NOT do anything like this for Catti-brie. Favoritism? Sexism? I think it's a very interesting oversight on the part of the dwarf king . . .
He wasn't sending his girl off into the wider world with a need to defend herself. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 15:37:31
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| I don't think Catti-brie was meant to be a major player with need of a powerful weapon The Crystal Shard. She doesn't take to killing until Streams of Silver, right? And then in time she gets the Heart Seeker, so she's good to go with powerful artifact weaponry. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 16:04:25
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| There was also the fact that The Crystal Shard was written as a standalone novel, with Wulfgar as the hero. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 18:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He wasn't sending his girl off into the wider world with a need to defend herself.
But he also wasn't sending his son off, either. The initial barbarian invasion actually took place in Marpenoth/October, so Wulfgar wasn't officially supposed to be released until late in the year, five years later. Bruenor crafted the hammer on the summer solstice, which is in the month of Kythorn/June. He released Wulfgar from indentured servitude prematurely, in late summer (Eleasis/August or Eleint/September). But Bruenor was hoping that Wulfgar would still stay on with the dwarves, as Catti-brie had done.
It was only during Wulfgar's adventures with Drizzt during that summer that Wulfgar learned that the barbarians were in league with the monstrous horde, and then decided that he needed to assume leadership of the tribes. But he had already had the hammer for most of the summer by that time. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 24 Dec 2013 19:52:46 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 19:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I don't think Catti-brie was meant to be a major player with need of a powerful weapon The Crystal Shard. She doesn't take to killing until Streams of Silver, right?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There was also the fact that The Crystal Shard was written as a standalone novel, with Wulfgar as the hero.
These two suggestions are pretty close to the real world explanation. I once asked Bob why Cat is such a minor character in the first book, and doesn't really get involved in any of the action, when, in retrospect/hindsight, she is clearly a total a total tomboy and thoroughly neck-deep in the action in all of the other books that she appears in. I asked if she was an after-thought. And he told me I knew him so well: that his editor at the time, who happened to be a woman, pointed out to him that his first manuscript was missing any females with speaking parts, so he had to fix that. But he had a very short deadline for that first book, so he had to fix it fast. He added in the Catti-brie storyline as best he could, which mostly consisted of other characters talking to each other and giving exposition about her, or having her talk a few lines to some of the male characters before they went off and actually did something important. There just wasn't enough time to incorporate and integrate her into the story any more fully than that.
Which is all fine and good, real world-wise. But I would like an in-world explanation, too. Why is Catti-brie such a wallflower when barbarians, and later an army of monsters, come barreling through Icewind Dale?
I have suggested to Bob that if they ever make a movie of The Crystal Shard, they need to address this. It doesn't make sense why she is so passive in that first story, but not in any of the others.
The moviemakers could contradict the book, and actually change things and make her more involved in the action. That would be the typical Hollywood treatment.
But my preference would be to have Bruenor holding her back in the first story, as an overprotective father. (Remember how he treats an eleven-year-old Cat in the prequel novel Sojourn?) I think there would be some good drama in having Catti-brie acquiesce for a little while, but eventually (in one of the later movies) deciding to defy him and assume her rightful place as part of the team. In that way, the movie would still kinda-sorta match the book, in that it would show that Catti-brie did not really get involved in much (any?) of the action back then, but it would do better than the book in that it would finally explain exactly why not.
Recall that in TCSh, young Wulf was involved in the barbarian invasion of Ten-Towns, but Cat was nowhere to be seen. When Wulf left the dwarven complex to go train with Drizzt, Cat teased Wulf from the complex entrance, but she didn't actually go out into the wilderness with the guys. When the monsters arrived on the scene later on, Bruenor and Regis went out to meet up with Drizzt and Wulf, but Cat did not. And when the monstrous invasion came on in full, Bruenor sent Catti-brie down below in the mines, with instructions to pull a lever and drop the tunnels if things ever got hairy--in other words, he kept her as far away from the action as he could. Then at the end, the four males go off to quest for Mithral Hall, but Cat is left holding down the fort back home; we even find out that she is called upon to clean out Regis's stuff from the palace in Bryn Shander in the next book, Streams of Silver. So the guys get to play warrior; the girl gets to play house.
(Dwarves Deep says that traditionally, female dwarves were kept busy in the home while males went out to mine and fight, and also suggests that because of low fertility amongst the dwarves, females ought to be guarded more than ever. So maybe Bruenor was treating Catti-brie as he would a female dwarf?)
In the next story, Streams of Silver, Cat gets thrust into the action against her will after being abducted. So she's as much a victim as she is a warrior-woman in that book. (I'm trying to avoid any major spoilers for Alruane, there.)
And then in the third, The Halfling's Gem, she is initially told by one of the males in her life that she should stay behind where it's safe and gather the dwarven armies instead of heading off into the greater world to go rescue Regis, but she finally stands up for herself and demands to be included as part of the team.
Methinks that last scene opens the door for us to consider an entire personal story arc for the character of Catti-brie: She starts out being held back and actually going along with that treatment, then gets reluctantly thrown into the mix, and then ultimately comes into her own as an assertive woman.
(FWIW, at the end of the novel Starless Night, Bruenor is so upset with the loss of one of the Companions, and also with Catti-brie for running off on an adventure of her own without him, that he actually slaps her in anger. I can't help but consider that scene in light of the above personal story arc, and think that Bruenor must be, at least a little, sexist or chauvenist.)
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
And then in time she gets the Heart Seeker, so she's good to go with powerful artifact weaponry.
This worked as a real-world attempt to belatedly provide some parity within the team.
But it doesn't explain why Bruenor hadn't already equipped her with some super-weapon before that time.
Best I can tell, Cat was about three years older than Wulfgar. I think he turns 18 years old in Shard, and I think she turns 21. If I'm right and part of the rationale for Wulf getting the warhammer as a gift was a major birthday, then where are Cat's similar such gifts for her 18th or 21st birthdays?
Please understand that I am not in anyway trying to criticize Bob here with these suggestions. Y'all know me: I'm the biggest RAS geek there is!
I'm just trying to provide a plausible in-world explanation for something that seems a little off about this first book. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 24 Dec 2013 20:01:11 |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 22:21:38
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| Regardless, his need for Aegis-Fang was a very lucky guess. Seeing as how Bruenor never said he HAD to leave. He toiled in the mines for years, learned to be a smith, and never once trained up until his NEARLY initial release from servitude. Now I understand WHY training him was important, everyone saw his raw talent as a warrior (regardless of his age). Also why Drizzt was to train him, he would teach Wulfgar humility and how to calm himself during a fight. Or rather, how to initiate the fight with a better sense of tactics than ALL OUT RAGE! |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 22:23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He wasn't sending his girl off into the wider world with a need to defend herself.
But he also wasn't sending his son off, either. The initial barbarian invasion actually took place in Marpenoth/October, so Wulfgar wasn't officially supposed to be released until late in the year, five years later. Bruenor crafted the hammer on the summer solstice, which is in the month of Kythorn/June. He released Wulfgar from indentured servitude prematurely, in late summer (Eleasis/August or Eleint/September). But Bruenor was hoping that Wulfgar would still stay on with the dwarves, as Catti-brie had done.
It was only during Wulfgar's adventures with Drizzt during that summer that Wulfgar learned that the barbarians were in league with the monstrous horde, and then decided that he needed to assume leadership of the tribes. But he had already had the hammer for most of the summer by that time.
Well technically I don't think they were 'in league' with Kessell and his turned army. I think, if I am wrong correct me, Heafstaag was under the influence of Kessell and the Crenshinibon. I have not QUITE reached the end yet, but I recall him being made to kneel and answer to his master. Against his own wills. |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 00:01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He wasn't sending his girl off into the wider world with a need to defend herself.
But he also wasn't sending his son off, either. The initial barbarian invasion actually took place in Marpenoth/October, so Wulfgar wasn't officially supposed to be released until late in the year, five years later. Bruenor crafted the hammer on the summer solstice, which is in the month of Kythorn/June. He released Wulfgar from indentured servitude prematurely, in late summer (Eleasis/August or Eleint/September). But Bruenor was hoping that Wulfgar would still stay on with the dwarves, as Catti-brie had done.
It was only during Wulfgar's adventures with Drizzt during that summer that Wulfgar learned that the barbarians were in league with the monstrous horde, and then decided that he needed to assume leadership of the tribes. But he had already had the hammer for most of the summer by that time.
I think he knew, though, that Wulfgar had no desire to stay underground -- so he would be going out into the wider world. And out there, he needed protection.
I am also of the opinion that crafting something like Aegis-Fang is a once-in-a-lifetime event. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 03:06:47
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Bob explained that the greatest and most skilled smiths sometimes (only once in their life) have a special feeling to create something truly wonderful. It comes from within and is the culmination of the skill and expertise of many years at the forge. Aegis-fang was the pinnacle of Bruenors skill, something he could never reproduce.
Now seeing that the image of the hammer came from deep within and that it was more of a size for a human rather than a dwarf to wield tells me one thing. Bruenor loved Wulfgar as a son. That's why he made the hammer for him. |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 04:25:41
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| Exactly, and the sad thing is that Bruenor's father never came to see the day he would create something so magnificent. It made me feel bad that his father never saw that day. But that Bruenor himself created the one thing that would sum up and culminate his entire experience as a smith, and give it to his adopted son(originally in servitude to Bruenor). That is by far the most interesting way to come about that tradition within dwarven culture. There may be far more odd stories, but still. |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 12:25:02
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| Odd repost lol. |
Edited by - Arcanus on 25 Dec 2013 12:26:52 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 16:12:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Alruane
Regardless, his need for Aegis-Fang was a very lucky guess.
And it was also a blatantly unfair decision, in that he obviously showed favoritism for his newer, male adopted child, and not for his older, female one.
quote:
Seeing as how Bruenor never said he HAD to leave. He toiled in the mines for years, learned to be a smith, and never once trained up until his NEARLY initial release from servitude. Now I understand WHY training him was important, everyone saw his raw talent as a warrior (regardless of his age). Also why Drizzt was to train him, he would teach Wulfgar humility and how to calm himself during a fight. Or rather, how to initiate the fight with a better sense of tactics than ALL OUT RAGE!
Right, sending him to learn to fight better, as well as to learn a different philosophy of honor and ethics, was a great decision. No one disputes that. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 16:14:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Alruane
Well technically I don't think they were 'in league' with Kessell and his turned army. I think, if I am wrong correct me, Heafstaag was under the influence of Kessell and the Crenshinibon. I have not QUITE reached the end yet, but I recall him being made to kneel and answer to his master. Against his own wills.
Being in league with someone means to be in association with, often in secrecy, or for nefarious purposes. It doesn't really require any particular method for the formation of the association, so someone can become in league with someone else by choice, or by coercion. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 16:47:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think he knew, though, that Wulfgar had no desire to stay underground -- so he would be going out into the wider world. And out there, he needed protection.
Oh, yeah, I'm sure he knew that Wulf's preference was to fly the coop. Wulf was still a little ticked off about having been taken prisoner, even after five years. He was mouthy with Drizzt when they first started training, not only because of matters of race, but because he hated to still be beholden to someone. He wanted his freedom, very badly.
That would certainly require some sort of weapon, in order to survive in a hostile place like Icewind Dale. Whether he was going to live as a dwarven tag-along, a towsnman, or a barbarian, Wulfgar was going to need some gear.
But that doesn't explain why Bruenor should gift his best crafted weapon ever, his masterpiece, to the lad.
Drizzt lived alone on the other side of the mountain, and operated in the field mostly alone, for five years. But Bruenor didn't gift him a masterpiece weapon. (We later learn that he did arrange for Drizzt to get a mithral chain shirt, though.)
quote:
I am also of the opinion that crafting something like Aegis-Fang is a once-in-a-lifetime event.
That helps to explain that the weapon is special. But it doesn't explain why Bruenor apparently thought his son was more special, and deserving of a special weapon, than he did with his daughter. This is a case of clearcut unequal treatment by Bruenor, as the text is written.
Mayhaps Bruenor did provide Cat with some cool dwarven-crafted gear, though, but RAS just never got around to writing about it. That would retroactively take all the air out of my balloon, but it would work.
But for now, given the context of Cat being such a wallflower and not joining the males in any of the action of this particular book, I still tend to think that Bruenor was treating his daughter unequally and unfairly, and the gift of Aegis-fang was one more piece of evidence against him. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 16:56:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Bob explained that the greatest and most skilled smiths sometimes (only once in their life) have a special feeling to create something truly wonderful. It comes from within and is the culmination of the skill and expertise of many years at the forge. Aegis-fang was the pinnacle of Bruenors skill, something he could never reproduce.
Now seeing that the image of the hammer came from deep within and that it was more of a size for a human rather than a dwarf to wield tells me one thing. Bruenor loved Wulfgar as a son. That's why he made the hammer for him.
That's fine to explain why he gave that particular weapon to Wulf.
But why didn't he give a loosely comparable weapon to his daughter? Why show that much favoritism?
It sounds like everyone else here is rationalizing sexism. "But there could only be 1 of those things, so he could only give it to 1 person;" "But his son was about to move out--his daughter wasn't;" etc.
It feels like I am talking to a bunch of brick walls. Are you all a bunch of guys who are sensitive to the charge of sexism, and are blinding yourself to it unless given absolute, black-and-white proof of it?
I wonder if any female readers can pick up on this, since you guys cannot. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 25 Dec 2013 17:24:35 |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2013 : 02:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Alruane
Well technically I don't think they were 'in league' with Kessell and his turned army. I think, if I am wrong correct me, Heafstaag was under the influence of Kessell and the Crenshinibon. I have not QUITE reached the end yet, but I recall him being made to kneel and answer to his master. Against his own wills.
Being in league with someone means to be in association with, often in secrecy, or for nefarious purposes. It doesn't really require any particular method for the formation of the association, so someone can become in league with someone else by choice, or by coercion.
I know, I understand, but I don't think this was coercion or their choice, they were forced to. But honestly, after that defeat I doubt he really cared to be controlled by Kessell. |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2013 : 16:37:16
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Bob explained that the greatest and most skilled smiths sometimes (only once in their life) have a special feeling to create something truly wonderful. It comes from within and is the culmination of the skill and expertise of many years at the forge. Aegis-fang was the pinnacle of Bruenors skill, something he could never reproduce.
Now seeing that the image of the hammer came from deep within and that it was more of a size for a human rather than a dwarf to wield tells me one thing. Bruenor loved Wulfgar as a son. That's why he made the hammer for him.
That's fine to explain why he gave that particular weapon to Wulf.
But why didn't he give a loosely comparable weapon to his daughter? Why show that much favoritism?
It sounds like everyone else here is rationalizing sexism. "But there could only be 1 of those things, so he could only give it to 1 person;" "But his son was about to move out--his daughter wasn't;" etc.
It feels like I am talking to a bunch of brick walls. Are you all a bunch of guys who are sensitive to the charge of sexism, and are blinding yourself to it unless given absolute, black-and-white proof of it?
I wonder if any female readers can pick up on this, since you guys cannot.
Maybe he didn't have a comparable weapon to give. The clan is outcast from their home of mithril hall remember. I don't recall any other dwarves (including bruenor) sporting magical weapons. Aegis-fang was created with things that bruenor had saved from his homeland so you could hardly expect him to start a production line of such weapons. As I recall in the next book bruenor gives cat the heartseeker bow. That is the first opportunity to give her a magical weapon.
Not too long a wait is it? |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1844 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 00:51:21
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I think Beast is correct in that Bruenor is guilty of a certain level of CULTURAL sexism. He raised Cat as he would a dwarven girl and I think that's fine...it's more realistic (regardless of what we think about the subject from a RW perspective) as that is the culture from which he hails. The good thing is that, eventually, he comes to regard her as a true equal and overcomes (at least some of) his inherent sexism. Also, I don't think Bruenor realized he was being sexist. In his mind, he was being a good (and over protective) father. There's no doubt that he loves her deeply and, as I recall, he felt very ashamed for slapping her (as well he should, BTW).
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I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 13:21:27
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I dont think Bruenor was showing any favoritism to Wulfgar when he did this. After all as Aracanus pointed out as a impoverished , outcast band of survivors they did not have all that many magical weapons lying around. Also he knew that Wulf was going to leave him someday and set out on his own adventures and would need something to protect himself but had no such worries about Cat.
Which might have been a bit sexist of him to be sure. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 16:08:39
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Hi, all. I think we must all be very careful when applying modern real-world views and attitudes to the Realms. Terms like "sexism" and "sexist" are loaded indeed.
For what it's worth, I think Bruenor was being a wise and good dwarf king in his treatment of both Wulfgar and Cattie-brie. We might call it "cultural sexism," but I'm sure many a dwarf of Faerun would respond to such a phrase with: "And who are YOU, a HUMAN, to be judging dwarves?"
But yes, Bruenor would send a son or valued young male warrior of the clan out into the world to BE a warrior, arming him as best he could, and guard and protect a valued young female clan member as best he could by keeping her safe at home, as breeding stock vital to the survival of the race (dwarves then still seeing themselves as a dwindling race facing oblivion if lots more new dwarves aren't born and properly raised, to continue each and every clan strong and vigorous). The feelings, skills, and opinions of the male and the female clan members involved are secondary - - until they "prove" themselves in such a way that the ruler can't ignore them (i.e. Cattie-brie becoming a battle hero in front of many clan members). We may see Bruenor's deeds and decrees as sexist, but he doesn't. He's NOT deliberately controlling or "keeping down" a female, he's guiding matters for the betterment of the clan (which all in the clan see as his job).
That's my take on it, and I know, from many discussions with Ed, that Ed sees it this way, too. I've never discussed it with Bob, but doubt his views would be far from these (and I from the first had suspected that Mary, Bob's editor, had asked Bob to shoehorn in an absent or almost entirely absent female character from CRYSTAL SHARD, because I've been a book editor myself for a long time, and the narrative "read that way"/Cattie-brie scenes felt tacked on.
In general, young dwarves get told what to do, then respected as persons with views and skills of their own as they grow older and earn respect, and the "telling them what they do" subsides a lot. In part because most dwarves don't step far outside widely-held clan attitudes and approaches.
love to all,
THO |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 21:00:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
Maybe he didn't have a comparable weapon to give. The clan is outcast from their home of mithril hall remember. I don't recall any other dwarves (including bruenor) sporting magical weapons. Aegis-fang was created with things that bruenor had saved from his homeland so you could hardly expect him to start a production line of such weapons.
Bob never described Bruenor's personal axe as being magical in any of the novels, but he did call it an axe +3 in the resource book Hall of Heroes.
But it is unclear whether Bruenor forged his axe in Icewind Dale (Hall of Heroes), or if he brought it with him from Mithral Hall ("The First Notch"). My guess would be the latter.
The Legacy says that Bruenor gifted to Drizzt his mithral chain shirt, and Siege of Darkness says that the dwarf Buster Bracer was the one who actually forged that chainmail, back in Icewind Dale. So, presumably, King Bruenor must've commissioned Buster to craft the mithral shirt for Drizzt. This armor was deemed +4 in 2E (Heroes' Lorebook) and 3E (FRCS), and +5 in 4E (Dungeon #171). So once again, one of the males gets some pretty sleek swag from Bruenor in Icewind Dale.
Do you recall Regis's spiked mace from The Crystal Shard? Bruenor was said to have crafted this little +2 number for the halfling (HOH). And after the Companions had moved back to Icewind Dale, in the novel The Silent Blade Bruenor forges Regis another new, magical, unicorn-headed mace, instead (statted as a +2 heavy mace in Thomas Costa's The Lone Drow: Companions of the Hall).
What did Catti-brie get? An elven suit of armor that Bruenor traded for, which is specifically said not to be magical, and a throwing dagger +1 (Hall of Heroes). This latter weapon was apparently so ineffectual that Cat is never described as actually having used it (though she did apparently carry it around with her as a little girl in Sojourn). And when she received new mithral armor later on from Buster Bracer (Siege of Darkness), it was only described as +1 (TLD: COTH).
Production line or not, back in Icewind Dale, Bruenor seemed to be able to consistently get the males better stuff than what he got for his daughter.
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As I recall in the next book bruenor gives cat the heartseeker bow.
Not exactly. The Companions stumble across the bow in the rubble of the Hall of Dumathoin, and Cat pulls it free from the debris. Bruenor doesn't really say "yea" or "nay" about it--she just hangs onto it and it sorta becomes hers, by default.
How heartwarming. That is not the same thing as him personally crafting or commissioning a gift for her, himself. He digs deep into his own pockets to give his boys cool stuff; he makes his daughter go dumpster-diving.
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That is the first opportunity to give her a magical weapon.
Not too long a wait is it?
Regis came to live in Icewind Dale in 1349 DR, and by late 1350, Bruenor had already forged him that spiked mace (2 years). Wulf began his indentured servitude with Bruenor in 1350 DR, and received Aegis-fang in 1355 DR (5 years). Drizzt arrived in Icewind Dale in late 1345 DR, and moved out in 1356 DR, and must've taken his mithral shirt from Bruenor and Buster some time during those years (9 years).
Cat was rescued by Bruenor in 1338 DR, and did not stumble across Taulmaril the Heartseeker until 1356 DR (18 years).
So yeah, I would say that that was a fairly long wait. Remember, Catti-brie met Bruenor long before any of male Companions ever did, but she didn't get her nice gift from him until after they did. (And even then, it wasn't really from him--it was just a fortunate, happenstance, coincidental discovery.) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 21:20:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I think Beast is correct in that Bruenor is guilty of a certain level of CULTURAL sexism. He raised Cat as he would a dwarven girl and I think that's fine...it's more realistic (regardless of what we think about the subject from a RW perspective) as that is the culture from which he hails. [...] Also, I don't think Bruenor realized he was being sexist. In his mind, he was being a good (and over protective) father.
Right. I'm not intending to dog Bruenor, here. He's my favorite RAS character of all time. He's my boy!
But he does seem to have had some hang-ups about his daughter, and by extension presumably about all females, early on in the stories.
<This> is a link to a wiki article that divides sexism into active, overt, hostile sexism or misogeny; and benevolent, "positive" sexism. The latter is characterized by patriarchal protectiveness of women, and limiting women to certain gender roles which are considered safe. It is the latter which I think Bruenor (and other dwarven leaders) were guilty of, in the past.
Dwarves Deep says that the dwarves' fertility problem lead to desperation and hard times within dwarven communities, and it was during those hard times that female dwarves found the opportunity to defy traditional gender roles and strike out to make names for themselves. This paved the way for a more modern, egalitarian, libertarian, non-sexist norm within dwarfdom.
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The good thing is that, eventually, he comes to regard her as a true equal and overcomes (at least some of) his inherent sexism.
Very much agreed! That jibes with my notion of Catti-brie having her own personal story arc within "The Icewind Dale Trilogy". I guess Bruenor does, too, at that. His eyes are forced wide open, and he must finally come to see that his daughter is no longer his "lit'l' girl", but rather, a grown-@$$ woman.
(That slapping scene from Starless Night makes me wonder how well he learned his lesson, though . . .) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 22:03:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi, all. I think we must all be very careful when applying modern real-world views and attitudes to the Realms. Terms like "sexism" and "sexist" are loaded indeed.
Loaded as they may be, how else should we label what was going on with Bruenor and other dwarven leaders in the past? There was some definite restrictive traditional gender role business going on.
quote:
For what it's worth, I think Bruenor was being a wise and good dwarf king in his treatment of both Wulfgar and Cattie-brie. We might call it "cultural sexism," but I'm sure many a dwarf of Faerun would respond to such a phrase with: "And who are YOU, a HUMAN, to be judging dwarves?"
But yes, Bruenor would send a son or valued young male warrior of the clan out into the world to BE a warrior, arming him as best he could, and guard and protect a valued young female clan member as best he could by keeping her safe at home, as breeding stock vital to the survival of the race[. ...]
We may see Bruenor's deeds and decrees as sexist, but he doesn't. He's NOT deliberately controlling or "keeping down" a female, he's guiding matters for the betterment of the clan (which all in the clan see as his job).
Even with good intentions ("benevolent sexism"), it still ended up affording more benefits to males, and/or fewer benefits/more restrictions to females. I am reminded of "The White Man's Burden". Some might rationalize it as an honorable duty to rule over others, allowing or prohibiting as the overseer sees fit. But the very act of presuming to restrict another is demeaning, even when it's done with good intentions.
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[...] (dwarves then still seeing themselves as a dwindling race facing oblivion if lots more new dwarves aren't born and properly raised, to continue each and every clan strong and vigorous).
This makes me wonder how to best factor the Thunder Blessing into all of this. 2E and 3E lore said that dwarves began to see a marked turn-around in fertility and birth rates in the year 1306 DR, and called this the Thunder Blessing. But 1E Bruenor appears to have still been running his clan with the old, over-protective, gender-role-based outlook. I guess news of the Thunder Blessing must have traveled really, really slowly up to Icewind Dale?
Either that, or King Bruenor was an extremely conservative, traditional dwarf leader and was not yet ready to change with the times, even with news of the Thunder Blessing? Maybe it took a human female's coming of age to finally get him to see the light?
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That's my take on it, and I know, from many discussions with Ed, that Ed sees it this way, too. I've never discussed it with Bob, but doubt his views would be far from these[...].
Again, I am not saying any of this to bash on my boy, Bruenor--much less, Bob. I'm only pursuing this line of thought because I think it makes for good storytelling, and it's based very firmly on what I see in the books. I hope no one is feeling offended, or defensive of the author/character.
Contrast Catti-brie's story arc with that of Eowyn from "TLOTR". Whereas Eowyn snuck around the king's back and secretly defied his restrictions by posing as a male in order to get into the fight; Catti-brie apparently obeyed her king's restrictions, and only got involved as a result of someone else thrusting her into the action, but once she got a taste of it, she demanded to be treated as an equal from thereon. Eowyn defied Theoden, presumably because he was only her uncle; but Cat listened to Bruenor, I must assume because she saw her king as an actual father figure, so she would've felt a stronger emotional connection to him.
Maybe Bruenor even traded in on that closer emotional connection? Maybe he begged Cat to submit to his restrictions just a little while longer, because he knew he was about to lose his adopted son, and he was afraid to lose his "little girl" as well? Could he have begged and pleaded with her in sufficiently a heartbreaking manner so as to have successfully gotten her to bite her tongue and go along with his restrictions in The Crystal Shard? Might she have quelled her own budding warrior-woman ethos in order to appease her "daddy"? If so, I think that there's a bit of a tragedy, somewhere in there.
All of which makes her defiant stand in The Halfling's Gem that much more triumphant!
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[...] (and I from the first had suspected that Mary, Bob's editor, had asked Bob to shoehorn in an absent or almost entirely absent female character from CRYSTAL SHARD, because I've been a book editor myself for a long time, and the narrative "read that way"/Cattie-brie scenes felt tacked on.
I didn't pick up on it when I first read Shard because I was a thirteen-year-old, pimple-faced kid at the time (1988). All I got were blades, blood, and bewbs.
This stuff only dawned on me years later when I started pondering the idea of "them" making the book into a movie some day, and I wanted to be able to analyze the characters like some of the special feature videos do on the some movie DVDs. How would you explain the character of Catti-brie to an actress prepping for a film adaptation of Shard? What is Bruenor's and her father-daughter dynamic really like? That sort of thing.
Thus was born my idea of Catti-brie having her own personal story arc within the three-book story arc. I just sorta stumbled across it, like she did with Taulmaril the Heartseeker. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2013 : 23:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
This makes me wonder how to best factor the Thunder Blessing into all of this. 2E and 3E lore said that dwarves began to see a marked turn-around in fertility and birth rates in the year 1306 DR, and called this the Thunder Blessing. But 1E Bruenor appears to have still been running his clan with the old, over-protective, gender-role-based outlook. I guess news of the Thunder Blessing must have traveled really, really slowly up to Icewind Dale?
I don't recall any mentions of the Thunder Blessing, or its effects, in 2E.
That said, Bruenor had already grown up and become an adult by the time the Thunder Blessing happened. Perhaps his exiled clan didn't have many females for them to even note the Blessing, or -- more likely, to me -- Bruenor was doing as many people do and holding on to the ideals he'd been raised with, despite cultural shifts that had happened since then. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Dec 2013 23:03:53 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2013 : 16:16:42
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As THO says, you can not put your views on a different culture. To that culture your views on what you consider sexist would be an alien concept. If you were a dwarf of clan battlehammer then Bruenors choices about what to give to whom would be proper and correct.
As regards the bow then seeing that bruenor was the rightful king then his silence to cats taking it is as good as his blessing. Not everything need be so formal.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2013 : 19:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
As THO says, you can not put your views on a different culture. To that culture your views on what you consider sexist would be an alien concept. If you were a dwarf of clan battlehammer then Bruenors choices about what to give to whom would be proper and correct.
We can impose our views on different cultures, and we do so, all the time. Yes, we temper our views with some empathy, if the way the other culture does things has worked for its people over a long period of time. But we don't suddenly lose our intellect or moral scruples when considering other people from other cultures.
Just because racism was rampant in the US decades ago didn't make it right. Just because slavery went on for centuries, and segregation for a century after that, didn't make it right. But people were used to those things here in the US, too. It was part of our culture.
That blatant sexual discrimination occurs in some fundamentalist Muslim cultures doesn't make it right; there are lots of social relief efforts which intend to give aid to the women in those cultures.
For that matter, sexism was (is?) part of our own culture, too. But that doesn't make it right for us, either, any more than it supposedly made it right for dwarves.
The idea that we should turn our judgment or evaluative faculties off when thinking about other cultures seems absurd, to me.
Should we deem tales about the Realms to be mere markings upon parchment, utterly undeserving of any emotional connection or intellectual review? Should we simply say that what happens on the pages of Realms literature concerns people who are completely alien to ourselves, and therefore it holds no value to us?
Or should we go ahead and invest ourselves in these tales, and pass judgment if need be, all the while qualifying our thoughts and opinions with some concessions to the fact that we are talking about peoples and creatures of a fantasy world?
I have no doubt that Bruenor sincerely thought he was doing what was best for his daughter by being so protective. But a patriarchal, sexually discriminatory system is still sexually discriminatory. To say that it wasn't that bad, as exceptional women like Catti-brie could pass through the discriminatory gauntlet and assume positions beside male warriors, anyway; is like saying that an accused racist isn't that bad because he has Black friends. Pointing to a few exceptions does not undermine the prevailing pattern.
Again, I'm not ranting on and on about this in order to bash Bruenor or other dwarven leaders. I just think it reveals another flaw in his character--one that his adopted daughter, fortunately, eventually helped him to overcome. It only comes across in subtle undertones in the first Drizzt books. But I still think it's there, if we're willing to look closely enough. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 29 Dec 2013 19:38:29 |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 13:18:28
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| You could pick holes in any realms character. But I choose to not take it all too seriously. The realms is fiction and that is all it will ever be to me. I do not 'live' the realms, I use it when I want to be entertained for a while. The writing (to me) is simplistic and fun. Maybe you should view it as such. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2013 : 18:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
You could pick holes in any realms character. But I choose to not take it all too seriously. The realms is fiction and that is all it will ever be to me. I do not 'live' the realms, I use it when I want to be entertained for a while. The writing (to me) is simplistic and fun. Maybe you should view it as such.
I'm that way about most of the books. But this one's special for me. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2394 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2013 : 10:09:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
2E and 3E lore said that dwarves began to see a marked turn-around in fertility and birth rates in the year 1306 DR, and called this the Thunder Blessing. But 1E Bruenor appears to have still been running his clan with the old, over-protective, gender-role-based outlook. I guess news of the Thunder Blessing must have traveled really, really slowly up to Icewind Dale?
I don't recall any mentions of the Thunder Blessing, or its effects, in 2E.
That said, Bruenor had already grown up and become an adult by the time the Thunder Blessing happened. Perhaps his exiled clan didn't have many females for them to even note the Blessing, or -- more likely, to me -- Bruenor was doing as many people do and holding on to the ideals he'd been raised with, despite cultural shifts that had happened since then.
And/or it's "buy a fish, feed for a day, buy a fishing net..." approach in self-inflicted version. Thunder Blessing was one-shot event, after all, and until he is sure... |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Part 1. Crystal Shard Discussion.
