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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 20:39:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
The sacrifice of the third born son is a customary tradition in Menzoberranzan. Tradition is not the same as dogma. Lolth, being a deity of chaos makes rules "set in stone" few, and uncertainty great. The scene you mentioned above is then followed up with Briza arguing that it would be worse to not sacrifice Drizzt and give Lolth what she was already promised (Drizzt). Maya then tells her to complete the deed, but Matron Malice stays her hand. Lolth accepted the sacrifice of Nalfein in leu of Drizzt is the only reason Drizzt is still alive. That was how Malice rationalized sparing the child.
We don't know that Lolth accepted the murder of Nalfein in lieu of Drizzt. We only know that Matron Malice considered the murder of Nalfein an acceptable substitute in lieu of the sacrifice of Drizzt.
Killing the first living son DNE killing the third living son. Sorry. They're apples and oranges.
It seems that Malice was viewing the tradition as "One must sacrifice the third living son, but at such time that there are no longer three living sons, one is then allowed to refrain from killing the son who formerly was the third living son." Nalfein wasn't a substitute, exactly, but his death did change the situation so that there were no longer three living sons of House Do'Urden. At that point, Matron Malice's opportunity to sacrifice the third living son had passed, and she couldn't kill the third living son, even if she wanted to.
So what did this mean for her? She failed to do her traditional duty. She failed to kill her third living son, when she had the chance. Her first born son was murdered during battle, and then Malice halted the sacrifice of her third born son. She then just let it go, and moved on. But that failure to follow the tradition, when she had the opportunity to do so, probably hung around her neck like a cursed albatross. And there was nothing else further that she could do about it, because the opportunity had already come and gone. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 22:21:12
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| Beast. Can't say that I agree with your interpretation that Lloth was not satisfied with the death of Nalfein. While Lloth is chaotic, it is not my impression that she commonly slow in showing her displeasure with her priestesses, if she finds them lacking. Your interpretation that the missed sacrifice of Drizzt should be a strike against her, thus doesn't sit right with me. Having Lloth keeping score like that just doesn't really fit my image of a goddess of chaos. It's just too ordered in my view. But let's agree to disagree ;-) |
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Berkthgar
Learned Scribe
USA
163 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 23:34:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
Beast. Can't say that I agree with your interpretation that Lloth was not satisfied with the death of Nalfein. While Lloth is chaotic, it is not my impression that she commonly slow in showing her displeasure with her priestesses, if she finds them lacking. Your interpretation that the missed sacrifice of Drizzt should be a strike against her, thus doesn't sit right with me. Having Lloth keeping score like that just doesn't really fit my image of a goddess of chaos. It's just too ordered in my view. But let's agree to disagree ;-)
I agree the lady of chaos wouldnt have simply accepted drizzts death. Wherever drizzt goes, chaos insues.
Was jarlaxle featured in realms of valor, I haven't read it |
“Change is not always growth, but growth is often rooted in change.
Drizzt Do'Urden” |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 02:41:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
Beast. Can't say that I agree with your interpretation that Lloth was not satisfied with the death of Nalfein. While Lloth is chaotic, it is not my impression that she commonly slow in showing her displeasure with her priestesses, if she finds them lacking. Your interpretation that the missed sacrifice of Drizzt should be a strike against her, thus doesn't sit right with me. Having Lloth keeping score like that just doesn't really fit my image of a goddess of chaos. It's just too ordered in my view. But let's agree to disagree ;-)
Recall that the yochlol told the priestesses of House Do'Urden that Lolth was not pleased with one in her house before Drizzt fled from Menzo (Homeland), and even 10 years later, House Do'Urden still had not found the favor of Lolth, for Drizzt was still free (Exile). While the handmaiden made Lolth's displeasure cryptically known 10 years prior, Lolth didn't actually do anything about it, if at all, until much later.
Recall that the yochlol only reported Lolth's displeasure to Malice when Drizzt was already 31 years old, but he had been displaying irreverent, non-Lolthite behavior since his teens. Why wait half his lifetime to say anything?
Recall also that the noble survivors of the victim houses in inter-house wars were supposed to be killed on sight, and yet Matron Baenre took some surviving noble children into House Baenre--with impunity (Homeland). Why no summary punishment there, either?
I would say that the unreliability and irregularity of the timing of Lolth's verdicts and or sentences is a classic sign of her chaotic nature.
But of course, all are free to continue to disagree. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 02:46:12
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quote:
Originally posted by khanio07
Was jarlaxle featured in realms of valor, I haven't read it
Nah, he wasn't in that anthology. But there was a Drizzt short story in that one called "Dark Mirror". It's one of the best Drizzt shorts. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 15:52:03
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Recall that the yochlol told the priestesses of House Do'Urden that Lolth was not pleased with one in her house before Drizzt fled from Menzo (Homeland), and even 10 years later, House Do'Urden still had not found the favor of Lolth, for Drizzt was still free (Exile). While the handmaiden made Lolth's displeasure cryptically known 10 years prior, Lolth didn't actually do anything about it, if at all, until much later.
Recall that the yochlol only reported Lolth's displeasure to Malice when Drizzt was already 31 years old, but he had been displaying irreverent, non-Lolthite behavior since his teens. Why wait half his lifetime to say anything?
Recall also that the noble survivors of the victim houses in inter-house wars were supposed to be killed on sight, and yet Matron Baenre took some surviving noble children into House Baenre--with impunity (Homeland). Why no summary punishment there, either?
I would say that the unreliability and irregularity of the timing of Lolth's verdicts and or sentences is a classic sign of her chaotic nature.
But of course, all are free to continue to disagree.
In respect to the couple of examples you refer to her, the Yochol tell Malice outright that her house is out of favour, though it does not tell her the reason, but as I recall it rather tells her off by telling her that the Spiderqueen doesn't answer questions where the answer is/should already be known. Malice and har daughters then discover that Drizzt's mercy towards the elven child, as Drizzt tells Zaknafain about during one of their fights, while they are being scryed.
Why wait 31 years to make the displeasure known to Malice? Simple. The house isn't out of favour until Drizzt acts in outright defience of the edicts of the Spiderqueen by sparing the elven child. One of THE number one mortal enemies of Lloth. We can argue that Drizzt has been engaging in non-typical Drow behaviour since his teens, but frankly his behaviour hasn't been outright sacreligious up until the surface raid.
As for Lloth's acceptance of house Baenre adopting some of the surviving children (and even the youngest of Drizzt's sisters, as I recall), this is apparently common practice, and I would imagine that Lloth accept this behaviour as long as the offending house is destroyed, and as long as the adopted and spared individual isn't the direct individual who has transgressed against the Spiderqueen. As I view it, the stain of disfavour rests mainly with the transgressor him-/herself, and the House itself. Thus death of the deviant and destruction of the House allows other individuals within the House, who is not personally directly out of favour, to survive, by washing their hands of their family name/House, and joining another House.
Basically everything about the faith of Lloth and Drow society is somewhat fluent and what might be acceptable in one situation, will loose you the Spiderqueens favour in another situation. All the time you need to look behind the obvious and seek the true meaning behind the facade. Had Drizzt repented his actions during the surface raid, and had he made a sincere attempt at penance, I'm pretty sure that the sacrifice of Zaknafein would have been accepted, and House Do'Urden would have returned to the favour of Lloth. Zaknafeins sacrifice would hurt House Do'Urden (serving as punishment of the House, and being something of significant value), and Zaknafein was never a true follower of the Spiderqueen. As it were, Drizzt spat at the sacrifice of Zaknafein and turned his back utterly at his family and Lloth, thereby rendering the sacrifice pointless, and necessitating his own death. Malice was proven to not be in control of her House, and thus not fit to rule, and thus she personally then also needed to prove her worthiness to the Spiderqueen again. Unfortunately for her, she wasn't up to that task, and Drizzt remained beyond her grasp, and thus also redemption for her and her House.
P.S.
Merry Christmas everybody :-) |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 16:25:23
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According to Matron Baenre, Lolth once held Malice in the highest regard. Considering how pleased she was with House Do'Urden, I had always assumed this had something to do with the destruction of House DeVir. House Baenre, being the First House and according to the 2E Menzo book was able to break some of rules that the rest of the city held by, with Lolth's support. I would also say that Matron Baenre was noted as doling out surviving nobles to other houses in the city, we just didn't see any of that happen in a novel.
The fun thing about novels is they allow everyone their own interpretation of events like these. Maybe someday Bob will give us more lore and info. :) |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 20:12:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
Malice was proven to not be in control of her House, and thus not fit to rule, and thus she personally then also needed to prove her worthiness to the Spiderqueen again.
She was never really in control of her house. She failed to properly vet Zak through the Blooding ritual, but instead let him be irreverent and sacrilegious for most of his life. Homeland says that Lolth had been angered by this on numerous occasions. Malice violated lots of rules over the years, and rationalized that away, because she thought the situation necessitated it, and because she apparently thought tha Lolth was merciful, compassionate, and sympathetic enough to understand. This was always about Matron Malice wanting what was convenient to her, and expecting Lolth to look the other way on her behalf.
So I'm not surprised at all that Lolth let her work her way right up to the Ruling Council, and then told her that she was still out of favor, and then let her get whacked. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 10:26:26
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
She was never really in control of her house. She failed to properly vet Zak through the Blooding ritual, but instead let him be irreverent and sacrilegious for most of his life. Homeland says that Lolth had been angered by this on numerous occasions. Malice violated lots of rules over the years, and rationalized that away, because she thought the situation necessitated it, and because she apparently thought tha Lolth was merciful, compassionate, and sympathetic enough to understand. This was always about Matron Malice wanting what was convenient to her, and expecting Lolth to look the other way on her behalf.
So I'm not surprised at all that Lolth let her work her way right up to the Ruling Council, and then told her that she was still out of favor, and then let her get whacked.
LOL. Have to disagree with your interpretation again Beast. I frankly see no evidence in the books or game that Malice in any way thought Lloth to be "merciful, compassionate, and sympathetic enough to understand". If anything we are actually told outright that Malice was generally held in high regards by the Spiderqueen, and that she was one of the most capable Matrons in Menzo., when it came to predicting the will of the Spiderqueen, and navigating the constantly shifting whims of the goddess of chaos.
It's true that Zaknafein often skirted the line of true sacrilege, and that he was often irreverent. It's also true that it got him in hot water on a few occassions (one such described in Realms of the Underdark book, as I recall). But fact is that he managed to extricate himself from those problems every time (else he'd have been killed prior to Homeland). His transgressions can't have been serious enough for him to be killed immediately though, because in that case he would have been. Menzo. is not forgiving of males that step too far out of line, and Malice would not have hesitated to sacrifice him, if his actions had endangered House Do'Urden's favour with the Spiderqueen, during the time he was her consort and Weaponmaster of her House.
At the end of the day, I think our difference here boils down to our perception of Malice. As I read you, you believe that she was incompetent and misread the will of the Spiderqueen time and again. I, on the other hand, believe that Malice was in fact very skilled and a highly capable Matron Mother, but her ultimate downfall was Drizzts utter unwillingness to conform. Had Malice been able to understand Drizzt's true nature, she would not have accepted Zaknafein's offer to take his place as sacrifice, as she would have know that Drizzt did not covet the position as Weaponmaster of the House, and that Zaknafein's sacrifice would become his primary focus, rather than the opportunity offered by his death (as most other Drow would probably have done). Had Malice understood just how alien Drizzt's mindset was, compared with other Drow, he would have been sacrificed, and House Do'Urden would have been back in the Spiderqueen's favour, and would have found victory in their war and a place on the Council.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 11:49:49
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| I'm inclined to agree with Beast on this one. It's been a long time since I've read Homeland or Exile, and you couldn't pay me to repeat either experience, but to my recollection, I can't imagine Malice as anything other than incompetent. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Shadowsoul
Senior Scribe
Ireland
705 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 13:00:46
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| I would say that the only reason Zak was allowed to live was because he was the greatest swordsman in all of Menzo. |
“Fantasy is escapist, and that is its glory. If a soldier is imprisioned by the enemy, don't we consider it his duty to escape?. . .If we value the freedom of mind and soul, if we're partisans of liberty, then it's our plain duty to escape, and to take as many people with us as we can!”
#8213; J.R.R. Tolkien
*I endorse everything Dark Wizard says*. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 15:44:18
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The House Do'Urden retrospective from the 2E box has some good info to reference. Just a couple excerpt here:
"Strongly supported by House Baenre (#1), which further invites question about the house's standing with the Spider Queen."
"It has never been truly decided whether House Do'Urden was a favored house of Lloth, or simply a pawn in the Spider Queen's unending game of chaos and perverted pleasure."
"Malice also knew how to play the intrigue within the city. Often she got her children placed in important positions at the Academy or in patrol groups. Matron Baenre usually nodded her approval
whenever Matron Malice's name was mentioned, and there could be no doubt, with Lloth and the First Matron Mother's
approval, that House Do'Urden would continue its climb.
Even more to the Spider Queen's pleasure was the way in which Malice handled Zaknafein, her weapon master (arguably the finest fighter in all of Menzoberranzan), who was not so loyal to drow ways;in fact,
Zaknafein despised Lloth, despised his race in general, and best served Malice when he was slicing his swords through the hearts of
drow priestesses. Malice played her former patron well, though, using Zaknafein's incredible skills to convert her drow soldiers into a crack, elite unit."
and
"Fiercely ambitious, conniving, loyal only to Lloth, ruthless in the extreme, Malice was, by all accounts, the perfect Matron Mother . If not for fate (spell that D-R-I-Z-Z-T), Malice would have no doubt
been a worthy addition to the Ruling Council."
I think Malice walked a dangerous line with Zaknafein, but it must have worked for several centuries as apparently the Spider Queen approved of her handling of him. |
Edited by - Eilserus on 25 Dec 2013 15:47:30 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2013 : 17:41:54
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I would not call Malice incompetent. I would call her self-absorbed and inadequately reverent to the Way of Lolth. She paid lip service to Lolth when it was convenient and would help her. But whenever she perceived it to hurt her, she rationalized disobeying it. Malice definitely had the concern for station which Drizzt says is so characteristic of the drow deeply imbedded in her mind.
So that earned her a meteoric rise to the last chair in the Ruling Council. And then she got all eight of her legs plucked off.
When I say that she thought Lolth would be merciful, I mean that Malice perceived a danger to her house most of the time if she were to kill Zak for his irreverent ways, or if she were to kill her last baby, Drizzt, and she figured that Lolth would be sympathetic if the matron mother chose not to kill those males. Never mind the law/tradition--Malice didn't want to, and she unilaterally determined that Lolth would see eye-to-eye with her on these various acts of disobedience. Time and time again, Malice thought that the needs of her one house trumped the Way of Lolth.
This is not the perspective of someone in awe and fear of a terrible deity. This is the perspective of a self-absorbed individual who creates a deity in one's own image, as a kind of long-suffering, caring parent-figure. Malice made it all about herself.
And I think Lolth was amused by such brazenness for a time.
And then she wasn't.
quote:
"It has never been truly decided whether House Do'Urden was a favored house of Lloth, or simply a pawn in the Spider Queen's unending game of chaos and perverted pleasure."
This last bit, to me, says it all. It explains both why Lolth gave the appearance of accepting Malice for so long, and why she found displeasure with Malice at times, and why House Do'Urden was ultimately destroyed. Malice provided the fickle goddess with a source of amusement, so the deity kept House Do'Urden around for several centuries as the ambitious matron mother played the social game in Menzo and worked her way up the ladder, while simultaneously brazenly breaking a lot of Lolth's own rules along the way. Lolth admired Malice's self-serving, disobedient chutzpah for a long time.
But she did not do so forever. Her utterly non-Lolthite son Drizzt was the last straw. Things weren't so amusing for Lolth, anymore. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 25 Dec 2013 17:51:49 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Jarlaxle prior to drizzt. SPOILERS
