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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 17:47:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just a note, we would want to verify when the north was covered with ice (i.e. when Ulutiu caused the great glacier). I point this out, because the area called Helligheim (of which Ironfang Keep was an outpost) was noted as primarily a fire giant colony.
Save yourself a lot of heartache and don't try to reconcile any of that. Giant-lore tends to fall apart when we examine it too closely. The whole thing should get a re-write, come 5e (in other words, base it on the previous lore, but fix all the continuity problems!) For example, according to Giantcraft, the Dwarves have records of the time of the war between dragons and Giants. Yet, that happened LONG before dwarves presumably appeared on Toril (and we are right back to my 'pre-Sundered, One-World theory).
The best way to reconcile all of it is that we had at least two different 'freezings', and we've also had several Ostoria 'survivor states', some of which may have also used the name 'Ostoria', whilst others have been misnamed by Sages in the intervening years. One Ostoria - the one we are most familiar with - was centered around what is now the Great Glacier. I did a mock-up of that awhile back. as you can see by that, I think the original Ostoria covered most of Northern Faerūn. The later kingdoms - after the fall of Annam's sons - would have been on the outskirts of that, and probably several different ones all claimed to be the 'real' Ostoria (or its true heir).
Then I later did THIS, which shows what the glacier would have looked before it began to melt - Vassa has only recently (past few centuries) been uncovered by the ice. What that means is that Vassa (and other areas) may hold some truly ancient ruins that have been almost perfectly preserved for some 35+K years! Moving the timeline forward (4e/5e), such is even more possible - there may be extraordinary wonders yet to be unveiled (WotC guys, take note - work on the Giant lore for 5e and don't let this opportunity pass you by). It also happens to be a great chance to reduce the glacier even further, and help reconcile the differences between the 1e/2e maps and the 3e one (the glacier headed north, and Icewind Dale came south).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Dec 2013 20:12:11 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 18:00:10
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Its been awhile since I looked at al of that, but I think it was generally agreed upon that the freezing of the glacier took many centuries (milenia?) to complete. Thus, the story of the sons of Annam took place over all that time, and the original (HUGE) kingdom was swallowed-up slowly by the glacier, and by the time the sons died {avoiding spoilers}, the glacier had grown fairly massive, but was still expanding (it even says it right in the short story that details this). We can't accurately gauge how big it was when all of that went down (the deaths), but common sense dictates it had grown at least half as large as its eventual size.
The glacier then remained fairly static for untold centuries, until a at least one 'tearfall' (meteorite) plummeted into the glacier and began the melting. We have evidence of this in two places, but the dates are off, so we may have to say there were two tearfalls. It would probably be far easier to just date the story in the 2e Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms as happening some time around 1100 DR or so (to reconcile it to the one mentioned in The Great Glacier).
EDIT: I believe there is also an entry in the GHotR about when Ulutiu was released from the glacier, but that just messes up everything worse, so just ignore it. It doesn't reconcile anything, and muddies the whole thing even more. If he was released at all, it should have been during that tearfall (was it even an accident?), because the glacier should have began melting without his necklace present. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Dec 2013 18:05:05 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 19:27:15
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Well we are never going to get a consensus on giant lore yet and this is not the giant thread, this is spirit realms.
So this is just how I am picturing it and I will include as little of giant lore as possible so as not to get involved in it.
Annam fathered the giants with Othea, she gave birth to many children (the ones mentioned in giant craft, and then any missing ones included in monster mythology like hiatea and karolantor - they just didn't get a mention in giant history because they never ruled a state of Ostoria). Grolantor and Ruk are the same person, Obadai and Skoraeus Strongbones are the same person, etc so if you see one name substitute it for the other if it suits.
From -42,000 DR onwards the ice gradually retreats until it covers only the northernmost portions of Faerun beyond the spine of the world. (I just draw a line from the spine of the world across the top of Faerun as its easier that way and it roughly follows mountains all the way across which makes a nice easy border).
-30,000 DR Annam and Othea have their children. Annam begins to carve out the realm of Ostoria
-28,000 DR Ostoria reaches its height from Damara to the Vilhon Reach.
-26,000 - 25,000 DR The dragons wage war against the giants and destroy the kingdom of Ostoria leaving many subkingdoms spread throughout Faerun ruled over by the sons of Annam. Lanaxis rules over the last real remnants of Ostoria centred on the modern day great glacier from its capital of Voninheim.
-25,500 DR Othea and Ulutiu begin an affair. Annam kills Ulutiu and leaves his body floating on an ice barge in the sea. Annam and Othea have another son and Annam leaves Faerun for the outer planes. Unable to protect his kingdom against the power of the dragons.
The next bit is muddy and to be honest isn't important enough to try and fix. GHoTR says Ulutiu sinks beneath the waves -2550 DR, to be honest that was probably missing a 0 on the end so that's what im going with (it was a misprint). So the great glacier gradually spreads to reach the limit of its power. However that doesn't mean the ice covered all the lands it does now. I take it to mean a glacier formed covering the sea in which Ulutiu was buried and the lands around it. Over time this has an adverse effect on the environment and so ice gradually creeps further south and east and west in all directions. I reckon 10,000 years it reaches Vaasa then a further 10,000 years and it reaches Damara. By -2465 it even manages to carve the Riildath in half with an errant glacier.
As for when Voninheim was finally swallowed and Lanaxis and Othea was poisoned it is anytime between -25,500 and -2550 DR. I would go for some time around -12,500 as the ice finally reaches Vaasa. Then we have Othea poisoned some time after that when all the sons of Annam meet to discuss what to do about Othea and Ulutiu and the Glacier (At Lanaxis' retreat I believe Markustay proposed which is a good idea)
But as I said none of this is pertinent to the Spirit Realms. The only thing that is important is that the giants exist or not at various times during its history.
So no more giant discussion, lets keep on track and develop some spirit realms stuff.
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Edited by - Gary Dallison on 20 Dec 2013 09:06:36 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 19:48:52
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So I kinda like the Karolantor idea being responsible for polluting the verbeeg and fomorians out of jealousy. He may well have done it in order to gain some respect among the true giants, but instead they were horrified by his actions. Yes he may have done something bad against the giants hated half siblings, but they were still related and should not have been twisted so.
I'm not so sure I'm taken on the fomorian verbeeg being firbolg and voadkyn originally, they probably just looked different before they were twisted (in much the same way as ogres were twisted into their current forms by Annam when he discovered Vapraks affair with Ulutiu).
So how about Othea birthed all the giant kin (verbeeg, fomorian, firbolg, and voadkyn), but Karolontor twisted them with the aid of the hags for some perceived slight and in order to impress Lanaxis who he was bitterly jealous of. And in doing so he angered Lanaxis and the other giant primordials who cursed him with his own current degenerate form (fitting punishment don't you think).
I reckon Grolantor and Karolontor probably wandered with each other for a time (maybe Karolontor was watching over his idiot brother) and both met the hag Cegliune. Karolontor was probably horrified by his brothers actions that polluted the hill giant race and created hag children. But he saw an opportunity there to possibly impress his other brothers by punishing the giant kin and then bad stuff happens.
But that's just an aside to the main story.
The hags and Cegliune I am picturing are the anathema to the spirit realms, and allied with Chupoclops cause the spirit realms to retreat to the south and east (yuirwood and rashemen). This sparks a war and we get the big showdown with Chupoclops and the heroes and villains.
So any ideas what creatures might exist in this unseelie hag realm. Looking for evil fey and other thoroughly nasty fey like creatures.
Have we any other primordials and (nasty ones as well) that might side with the unseelie hag realm.
And finally onto the showdown with Chupoclops. We need 3 heroes and 4 villains (or is it the other way around). I think the unnamed hag countess should be one of the villains (infused with baatorian power).
Relkath of the infinite branches could be one of the heroes or villains since he might easily go mad at the destruction of the forest.
Magnar the bear should be a hero I think and he should be responsible for the creation of quaggoths (from either goblins or humans).
I'm thinking Fenmarel Mestarine (who should be a wolflike primordial rather than an elf) should also be a hero and be responsible for giving the Lythar lycanthropy and making them the lythari.
Any other ideas for villains and heroes?
And then onto the final battle.
I'm kind of picturing that the heroes and villains die deliberately so that they can battle Chupoclops in the ethereal plane (when they die they will rise as Telthor).
Alternatively a massive battle involving the primordials and their mortal allies (elf, human, goblin) on the spirit realm side against the unseelie hag realm and chupoclops. Gradually one by one the primordials are slain and they rise as Telthors possessing various mortal allies. These allies then penetrate Chupoclops' lair (in narathmault) and engage chupoclops, dying one by one each day. The released Telthor primordials also engage Chupoclops on the ethereal plane when their mortal host dies and in this two pronged assault they finally kill the elder evil.
Of course Chupoclops remains as a vestige and Lolth later binds that vestige to ascend to godhood. Of course the secrets of binding vestiges are left behind in Narathmault for others to find (like the Nar and Zhengyi).
Need lots more detail though.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 20:19:44
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One last thing (and then I'll stop about giants), but only because you mentioned my placement was good...
I think I choose the 'landing site' of Ulutiu for obvious reasons - that double-mountain range looks like the perfect mega-crater for a human-shaped form, and it happens to be fairly central to the glacier itself.
I think I choose the proposed site for Voninheim because (when you compare the two maps) thats where 'the Great Mount of Ghaethluntar' is, and it seemed like a fairly reasonable site or a long-lost Giant-sized capital/palace (the mount itself).
Now, to get back to your thread - that entire region has connections to the Fey, which are part of 'the spirit world' (as are giants). I believe Dalor Darden did a lot of research on that. We also have a tribe of fey-deity worshiping Orcs there (the Ondonti). Could the Ondonti be former slaves of the giant tribes, and were helped by the fey? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Dec 2013 20:20:15 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2013 : 20:52:58
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Actually, after typing it, I realized it makes better sense if Othea and Ulutiu produced 4 family lines as noted, but Karontor modified completely 2 of those lines magically creating the ugly form of the Fomorian and turning it evil, then he didn't modify the look of Verbeeg but he did modify their "nature" to be evil by tainting their souls somehow.
On evil fey, there's the underdark fey called Gloura (some are good, some are evil). There's spriggans (the gnomes that turn into giants) and quicklings. There's various "evil" plants. There's redcaps. I'd also recommend that possibly some of the goblins of Toril are transplants from the feywild (and more like the goblins you see in PF).
There's the aughisky or "water horse" from the short story Thieve's Honor in realms of infamy, which is related to a real life myth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Each-uisge
For "Primordials", it should be noted that there is an Archfey in Rashemen known as the "Stag King" and he had some stag headed fey (reminds me of Actaeon).
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Stag_King
I'd also recommend possibly several other powerful animal-related beings. (Wolf, Hawk, Raven, Coyote, Fox, Lynx, Panther, Horse, Ram, Goat, Bull, Turtle, Duck, Swan, Crane, Hummingbird, etc....)
Long ago, I had come up with these ideas - http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/faerielore.htm
Polynesius - a flower spirit that attracts bees. A lesser form of dryad. Inhabits groves of flowers as a spirit, she gains control of those who smell their blossoms (akin to a magic jar). They are very fickle, hating those who would kill their blooms in order to please a lover, seeing it as a grave insult. After making love to the picker of the blooms, they inevitably kill them for the offense and come back to the grove to give birth. One can tell a field protected by these spirits by the tiny red and white petaled wild flowers that grow interspersed there. However, the honey produced from these groves is unsually rich and prized in the making of mead, so many Rashemi try to succor these spirits.
Auglathon - An earth spirit which can only reproduce by making love to a woman who truly loves him (or rather the body that he inhabits). They inhabit the bodies of males that they murder (however, they must coerce the man into the area that they inhabit). However, they must kill the man without leaving visible marks (or else the lover would obviously know). They try to do so by choking the victim to death with dust. Thus, women should take note of large amounts of dust residue on their lovers.
Ssarthak - A hateful river spirit who cant give birth to children herself, so they must steal newborns (under a year old) in order to reproduce. This spirit appears as a rather large snake, but with arms for snatching children. The child is swallowed whole. Something within the snakes body alters the child magically, causing it to be reborn as a river spirit.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2013 : 09:21:55
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Orcs would be interesting but orcs i believe came from Faerie as well before the elves.
They seem to have been centred around the spine of the world and in the west (at least the mountain orc was anyway).
I realise there is nothing and no one in the east that could mention meeting a mountain orc because no society capable of writing lived in the unapproachable east until the elves arrived around -10,000 DR (I dont think fey societies are very good at leaving written records - its too organised).
However the fact that almost every orc east of the sea of fallen stars is a grey orc says to me that there were no orcs in this land until the orcgate wars. So something must have stopped the orcs reaching this far east.
I picture the original orcs as a passive, nomadic society that wandered the forest quite happily living with the fey. Then those vicious elves arrived and murdered them wholesale driving them into the mountains and hills where they had to compete with primitive humans.
Then the dragons came along and moulded the humans into their personal soldiers and used them to drive the orcs from their lands. Then the dwarves came and tried to steal the mountains from the orcs as well.
Picture a race persecuted for millennia and you can understand the orc's vicious mindset. For over 30,000 years they have had to live off scraps, and even then some goody two shoes thief tries to rob them of the scraps.
But anyways, mountain orcs are isolated in the west for whatever reason and yes probably mixed quite well with the fey their. I'm not sure where these ondonti orcs are but if its in the west then its likely the fey sheltered them from other persecutors and so they never became evil like the rest. If its in the east then perhaps the fey took this one group of orcs with them as they fled the loss of their realms in the west to the creator races.
It would have been nice to have orcs in the unapproachable east at this time as we could have the hags twist them and use them in their armies but i dont think mountain orcs ever ventured that far.
The first mention of mountain orcs penetrating to the moonsea region is in the time of Cormanthor so that is quite late, which makes sense if they only spread by hording and hopping from mountain range to mountain range. Resource restriction would keep the population low, and hording may deplete and destroy established holdings so their spread would be patchy and contain many ebbs and flows over time but gradually they move ever outwards until they reach the moonsea sometime around 0 DR. After all they are almost completely absent from Calimshan so their geographic isolation is still in place even now. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2013 : 12:21:08
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Well according to the 3rd edition Fey Type. Fey eat breath and sleep.
So all the fey are susceptible to the night twists - which is a good thing, and makes sense since the plane of Faerie is not that disimilar from the material plane.
Hags may well sleep, but i doubt nightmares bother such loathsome creatures. However it does mean the hags would be alone in their battles against the other fey.
Not that it would be a big battle, its so long ago the numbers of individuals around at that time would be much lower. And any foray into the hag infested western part of the Greater Riildath could only travel for 1 day at the most, when they fall asleep they die, and tired people dont fight very well.
In fact a night twist infested forest is a very effective defence (unless you are facing outsiders or constructs.
As a further thought for the hags that side with the good fey, they are lead by what may well later be the hag countess, but the hags that side with her could also abandon the area for the outer planes and become Night Hags.
Obviously the ones that stay with Cegliune and get dispersed when she loses become the other races of hags that we have in the Realms; green, annis, bheur, etc. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2013 : 14:49:05
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Orcs would be interesting but orcs i believe came from Faerie as well before the elves.
They seem to have been centered around the spine of the world and in the west (at least the mountain orc was anyway).
My theory on Orcs is somewhat Tolkienesque, but truthfully more borrowed from the Saga of Pliocene exile I mentioned earlier.
In the beginning, all fey could change form (because they are actually energy/spirits that can manifest themselves in the Material World). Part of their ability to do so resides in their nature, and their ties to 'the earth' (Toril, in this case, or in my personal homebrew, that 'First World'). When Ladinion was corrupted by the Black Diamond, the Fey fled to the Elder Wilds (now the Feywild). Danu sacrificed herself to create a new homeland for them (Faerie), and by doing so she also severed their ties to 'the earth' (being creatures of pure energy, I postulate they need to be 'grounded' somehow). This all occurred around the same time that the first Sundering happened, and all the Creator Races were looking for ways to survive. As part of that, we had the 'God war', otherwise know as The War of Light & Darkness. During that conflict, death itself was created. Once again, all of this occurred right around the same time (give or take a century).
Thus, all of the Children of the Fey - now changed by their new connections to their new (non-Prime Material) homeland - are the last of their immortal kind. All of their children (El) are long-lived, but still mortal. Eventually those children outnumbered their forbears in Faerie, and some built their own kingdoms on the periphery (including Tintageer, which was jointly ruled by Cor Ellion and Gru-mass). The children that left were known as El'adrin, or 'wayward children', and the ones that stayed true to the Fairy court were known as El'ves, or 'loyal children' (roughly translated). Eventually the two brothers fought (instigated by their cousin Araushnee), and Gru-Mass took his Unseelie elves elsewhere.
Here's the thing - so long as these 'new fey' (Elves) remained in Faerie, they had many of the same abilities as their parents... including changing their appearance. The Unseelie fey preferred horrific countenances, because it reflected their amoral, chaotic nature. When these fey/elves left the Feywild, they gradually lost their ability to change their look, and are now 'stuck' the way they are. Thus, Orcs and Elves are really the same race, divided by some 35+K years of time.
Cor Ellion and Gru-Mass (roughly: 'wild spirit'), along with several other family members, were the Eladrin royalty, due to their relation to Titania. This royalty was called the S'Eladrin, which eventually became Seldarine, when (through exultation by their people) they ascended to deity-hood.
The original two main groups of El(ves) were still shape-shifters, and many of the rural-dwelling ones took on smaller forms to live easily within the forests of the Feywild. Thus, the Seelie and Unseelie branches contained all sorts of smaller members, which is where we get the great variety of fey we have today (so goblins are just the Unseelie version of Brownies, etc). Most of these have also lost their size-changing abilities, with a few exceptions (Like Spriggans). Some have learned to link themselves to specific places and natural formations in order to maintain some semblance of their former powers (like trees in the case of nymphs, or fairy rings - gates to the Feywild - for sprites). Lythari are another example of this - they are able to sense 'fairy gates' and use them frequently, wherein they are able to 'store' just enough fey energy to be able to change their forms.
And thats how ALL fey are one race (including Orcs and goblinoids), but are all completely different. I actually believe all the Creatori (Creator races) have similar stories (they all managed to somehow manipulate their forms, in some way or another). This may have even been a direct out-growth of them having to survive in extremely hostile conditions (the world had no sun for a short time!)
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Dec 2013 23:26:34 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2013 : 23:24:31
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Actually, I've been espousing my homebrew ideas for so long, some of them have gone on to become canon (or perhaps quasi-canon).
For instance, there was a Dragon article that told the story of Gruumsh and Corellon being brothers. I was asked permission to use that bit. 
The idea of my own homebrew is to actually be over-arching, in that any setting could be dropped into it and it works. Every world will have their own legends how things were, and folklore about where stuff comes from (that setting's canon), but its really all juts based upon stuff that happened to that first World (The Prime Material Plane, when it was all just one massive flat world), and immediately after (when the spheres first formed). Hence all canon remains intact; everything has a common origin, and also everything has parallel evolution. For example, every world has ogres, and they all have their legends about how they originated, but the first (true) Ogres lived in the First World, and all the others are variants that sprung-up throughout the shattered, prime material plane.
Its supposed to be 'one size fits all'. Every setting, every plane, & every bit of religious lore. Each has their truths, and each has their interpretations.
The Spirit World - the topic of this thread - is something I strongly believe in. I think that D&D just gets it all muddied by trying to codify every different region as a separate realm or plane. Its really all the same; think of this world as being a frequency on the electromagnetic spectrum. All these other 'worlds' are really just other frequencies - its just one world, and we all exist side-by-side. The trick is to be able to dial-up the right frequency (perceive it), and then simply 'step on through'. Thats the Spirit World - all those other layers we can't normally see or enter. D&D just calls them things like the Ethereal, the astral, Feywild, Shadowfell, etc. To something on the other side, we might be part of their spirit world (although not in D&D - I think the Prime Material is special for some reason... maybe...)
EDIT:
Almost forgot. 35+K years in FR/D&D is the equivalent of some 200+K years in our 'real world' (although to be perfectly frank, I think 'science' has it all wrong. I think evolution happened MUCH quicker then that). So, although I espouse the notion that all orcs, goblinoids, fey, elves, etc are one 'race', what I am really saying is that the fey - the original Fey - is a common ancestor, and orcs and elves (today) are as different from each other as we are from apes. So it all depends on how you look at things - common ancestry could mean same race, or just mean precisely that - common ancestry. In fact, if you go back far enough (whatever you believe), everything has a common ancestry; life had to begin somewhere. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Dec 2013 23:36:58 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 01:24:34
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Okay added the hag race, grolantor, and karontor into the mix.
So Karontor sires the hag race with cegliune and in return she helps him curse the fomorian and verbeeg race into their current forms. In response Lanaxis and the other giant primordials twist Karontor so his form matches his actions and he flees.
So now we have Cegliune and her race of hags on the scene which i think is what signals the beginning of the end for the Spirit Realms in the Unapproachable East.
It probably wouldnt be too much of a stretch to imagine Cegliune and her hags twisting the trees into night twists.
I think we should stick to the original envisioning of the night twists in that they send slaying nightmares to those nearby.
This releases a lot of spirits that Chupoclops then eats, growing fat and powerful.
Together Cegliune and Chupoclops scour everything (fey, spirit, and humanoid) north of thay and west of rashemen clean.
That leaves the forests of Rashemen and Aglarond, and Thay with the Spirit Realm left in it. Thay gets cleared of most of its spirits by the Sarrukh who merge the spirits with humans to make centaurs, and dedicate areas to their gods to clean the land. Later the Mulan arrive and chop down all the trees so all spirit realm influence is gone when the last fey leave.
So these remnants of the Spirit Realms fight back against the hags and succeed in killing Chupoclops (Cegliune i figure just abandons him and runs away).
If we are going to have night twists involved (and i think we should as they fit very well). I dont think we can really have anyone other than the hags on Chupoclops' side, because whoever sides with Cegliune had best be immune to nightmares and not need to sleep (weirdly elves would probably survive the night twists best of all since they dont sleep).
Do fey need to sleep?
Nah, hags shouldn't be sired by Karontor and Cegilune. She should have done that long before, and not necessarily with a giant god. Karontor's involvement with hags was simply to learn dark magic from some "ancient underground hags", so I'm thinking possibly a new hag race or night hags is who he was involved with (speaking of other hag races, sword and sorcery's Creature Collection I and II has some nice hags for 3rd edition... such as the blind cavern hags who cast as 9th lvl sorcerers, moon hags who cast as both 14th lvl sorcerers and 12th lvl clerics (certain domains only), storm hags that cast as 9th lvl druids, and the small haglings which could be servants). Knowing that Dun-Tharos is some massive underground environment that's filled with "evil", so perhaps these "ancient underground hags" are actually the hag society we have in Faerun... and perhaps in its depths, the underdark of Toril and the underdark of the feywild MEET.
It was Grolantor that mated with Cegilune, possibly creating the hill giants, but I'd rather Grolantor be responsible for some kind of magical "giant" race as a result of mating with Cegilune. My first thoughts are ogre magi, but I'm sure there's something better (for instance, eldritch giants from the 3rd edition MM3). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 14:47:08
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On the other hand, the way 4e lore overwrote so much canon, it has opened a door that can no longer be shut. If canon is mutable, why should that privilege just be reserved for a few people in Renton? What is FR canon? Next week it is whatever some guy they hire tomorrow thinks it is. Don't fool yourself; nothing at all is 'set in stone'.
As for in-game, Ed (and others, but mostly ED) has said that 'the gods/planes are unknowable'. What that basically means is that the folks of Faerūn (and beyond) probably have it all wrong, or only see the tip of the iceberg. Also, the entire setting is revealed to us in 'uncertain third person', even if the 3e presentation doesn't appear that way (they've just left-off the story-element of that... but it is STILL canon that that's how we find out about the Realms - through folks of The Realms interacting with people from Earth).
Lastly, the lore is full of inconsistencies, across all editions, and the giant-lore is probably the worst offender. You can't 'stick to canon' when the canon itself is badly broken. First of all, giants were born of Annam and Othea on Toril, and yet, we have plenty of evidence of giants existing before then, including a category of 'greater (planer) giants'. We have two completely different power-levels of Titans, Cyclops, and Fomorians spread across different editions. That would infer that their should be at least two tiers of the other (major) giant-types as well.
And this is why I fix all of that by saying Annam fathered those first giants on that theoretical, 'First world', which existed before the Sundering (having two different worlds - whether you adhere to my "all from One" theory - repairs quite a bit of lore snafus). It doesn't matter if it was only Abeir-Toril at the beginning that was split into (only) two worlds - the point is that there was one world, and now their are multiple worlds, and some of the stories should get applied to that (now non-existent) original world. By giving us (at least) two different worlds (three, technically), 4e actually gave us a great way of fixing some things.
Applying all of this to this thread subject, those 'elder giants' would have existed in the Elder Wilds (my name for the pre-fey Feywild), which is all part of this 'Spirit World'. Then the Fey fled to that plane and fought with the giants (our legends of the wars between the giants and the Tuatha Dé Danann). The giants were pushed to the edges of Faerie, and many fled to other planes. Back in the (newly restored) prime Material, Annam began to re-seed his people throughout the Crystal Spheres. Since death now existed, these were mortal, or 'lesser' giants (just as all races born after the godwar are mortal). Even Annam's 'firstborn' - the mighty patriarchs of Faerūn's giants - were mortal in the end. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2013 14:53:11 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
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15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 14:50:18
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Split my post because it was over-long:
As for Othea - she was probably an archfey (one of many that 'stayed behind' when the race fled the material world). Since she existed before death did, she should be immortal, so its likely that the poison merely put her in some sort of permanent coma. It seems many archfey eventually succumb to a type of hibernation as they grow truly ancient, and merge their essence with the land itself (becoming notable geographic features, such as mountains).
What this all means is that the Prime Material Plane really only contains 'shadows' of the greatness of all these ancient races. The spirit world would contain the few remaining members of the original races (for example, Lung dragons, as opposed to 'European' style dragons). There is no need to connect single-world canon to them, because they are different (but related) to the ones we are more familiar with. We needn't throw-out 4e lore, we merely need to work within its framework. For example, 4e's versions of fomorians are a PRIME example of what I am talking about - those feywild-dwelling versions are nothing at all like the ones we've seen in FR prior to the Spellplague.
And BTW, if we say that Ulutiu was a nature spirit (another Archfey), then that would mean the giantkin are all really fey, and not giants at all. However, my thoughts are that Ulutiu was actually a powerful Urdunnir (a primal dwarf). Since dwarves are related to giants (through Ymir), that means the giantkin are actually a form of fey/giant crossbreed... and thats probably the real reason why Annam was so pissed off. Firbolgs fit that bill perfectly - they change size, and dwarves look upon them with reverence (see the Cleric Quintet series). They are the epitome of a 'fairy giant'. The other giantkin may have just been failed attempts to create the Firbolgs (the Fomorians certainly seem like some sort of horrible accident). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2013 15:09:09 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 21:34:08
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Well since Ulutiu and Othea produced giantish creatures and Annam and Othea produced giantish creatures, I took that to mean Othea was the one responsible for the excess amount of power/life/energy in her offspring that resulted in giant creatures.
But anyway, this isn't a giant thread. Spirit Realms only. Repeat offenders will be shot.
I can't fault any of your homebrew stuff, its all very well thought out, but I will always go with 1st 2nd and 3rd edition lore when it works (and 4th edition lore if its good enough - primordials being good enough, eladrin and spell plague not good enough.)
However I just prefer the simplistic approach. Where giantcraft gets it wrong with dates and other references I just assume it was the inaccurate narrator and ignore the wrong bits. Having the same race born twice doesn't really do it for me, its scientifically impossible so I cant get the thought to stay in my head without it feeling weird, so I have to go with giants exist in Faerun first because that's the only world I am concerned with.
However I am gonna try and make this stuff as generic as possible so I will go through and rewrite bits to make it non committal to who created what and pitch it as a rumour or story only.
But if a book says Cegliune birthed the hag race with Grolantor then we should honour that work, someone took the time to research and write that piece and that deserves respect. Unlike certain giant works which weren't researched quite so well so we have to ignore some bits that don't work, and most 4th edition works which weren't researched or taken time with at all.
Unless we have an alternate reference for Cegliune and the birth of the hags then we should at least make a nod to it. Which is why I will just say the hag race arrived shortly after Grolantor and Karontor visited Cegliune.
So what are we gonna do about this battle with Chupoclops, its kind of integral to the whole thing and I know Sleyvas had some pretty strong feelings about it being centred in the Ethereal Plane, whereas I think it should involve both.
Chupoclops being ethereal can still manifest on the material plane and kill material plane beings, but he is easier to attack on the ethereal plane. That's why I envisaged a number of beings - a human, a hag countess, a lythar elf, a goblin, and some others. Each possessed by a Telthor of one of the primordials of the forest.
Chupoclops battles the material plane beings and as he kills them they release the Telthor to fight him in the Ethereal. Why this way, because if a bunch of Telthor wandered the ethereal to find and fight him CHupoclops would pick them off one by one since he is an ethereal elder evil and eats spirits for breakfast.
If the Telthor inhabit a body then they can find and corner him in one place in his lair (in Narathmault with Cegliune). Then they can fight him in the material plane and ethereal plane all at once without him being able to concentrate on one at a time - it would give them the best chance.
Unfortunately he is still too strong and kills them all anyway. However in death they ascend or are resurrected for their deeds.
Other ideas?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
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15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:04:33
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You see, thats where you keep losing me - I have never heard of this Chupoclops guy. 
Thats why I was trying to contribute in any way I knew how, or with related material (each post I tried to relate it back to the Spirit World).
Toril, BTW, didn't exist when the Creator races were in power. Even if you completely ignore 4e, The Sundering still happened (it just wasn't about splitting Abeir and Toril apart). There was a world where the Creator Races frolicked, and then there was darkness, and then their was the 'brave new world' (even if it was the same planet, it did - canonically - have a new sun). Death did not exist in that early time - Death existed only after The War of Light & Darkness.
So, ummm... yeah. The world that pe-existed the Creator Races isn't the same as the current one, regardless. It would have different physics and everything (because the lack of death also means there is no decay, which effects EVERYTHING). Thats the world that this 'Spirit Realms' exists in. The GHotR even says 'the stars changed'.
And BTW, I only just now realized whenever I talked about the Spirit World (lumping together all transient planes), I didn't realize I was off-topic. I had forgotten where this all started (in the other thread), and that your idea for 'Spirit Realms' was an actual Realm. Sorry about that. I Sometimes I can be rather thick.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2013 22:06:14 |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 22:29:53
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I think Chupoclops is from a 3.5 edition tome of magic book. The one with vestiges and pact magic. He is written as having existed alongside Fenris (otherwise known as Kezef) and Dendar the Night Serpent so it is possible he is Faerun related as Dendar is in Faerun.
It was Sleyvas who came up with the idea for Chupoclops as the destroyer of the Spirit Realms.
Yes we are actually talking about a Realm but I figure the fey actually owned all the land of Faerun before anyone else so it kinda is a world spanning realm, but this last bit is more about the area of Vaasa, Damara, Impiltur, Aglarond, Rashemen etc.
Basically trying to figure out a reason why Rashemen and the hordelands are still so full of spirits and the rest of Faerun isn't.
Keep the contributions coming, the bits you have about the fey come in very handy and without it I never would have gotten onto the idea that the elf gods (and indeed most other gods) were primordial beings at one point each with a physical body, and that's where the stories come from.
That's why Grolantor can have sired the hags with Cegliune. Yes both are gods now, but at some point in history they weren't, they were people (super powerful people, but people nonetheless).
The more ideas the better I say.
Although the idea of a different world before the sundering isn't how I picture it, yes the stars changed, yes Ao altered bits in order to prevent wholesale destruction, but it doesn't make sense for it to be a different world - too much hard work.
The elves butchered the land and created the swordcoast and evermeet and the timestream had to alter to accommodate that. Then Ao did a phase shift of parts of the planet when the batrachi did something monumentally stupid (I wrote them in that order because the elf sundering went back in time so technically it happened first).
So I work in this world which has always been this way with the sword coast as the border of the ocean and the other continents split apart (although I am tempted to drop Maztica because its too real world rip off).
Now back to Spirit Realms.
Need a roster of 3 heroes and 4 villains.
Hag daughter of Cegliune should be Villain 1 (and maybe pretend to die in the fight but secretly do a runner).
Fenmarel Mestarine could be hero or villain since he isn't exactly sociable (and the way the lythari come about)
Magnar the bear could be a hero (and a possible way to create quaggoths)
Relkath of the infinite branches could be hero or villain (destruction of the forest drives him nuts).
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
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Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 23:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Yes we are actually talking about a Realm but I figure the fey actually owned all the land of Faerun before anyone else so it kinda is a world spanning realm, but this last bit is more about the area of Vaasa, Damara, Impiltur, Aglarond, Rashemen etc.
Okay, so we really are on the same page, then. I've noted that the east (going all the way into Kara-Tur) is heavily connected to The Spirit World - there was even a kingdom ruled by spiritfolk (although there is no entry for 'Guge' in The Horde accessory, many entries give little snippets of its history). Spirits (Fey) in the east are Kami (all outsiders are Kami, even gods, but now I am getting back to the 'all are one' theories I embrace so fervently). That means that spiritfolk are really a form of half-elf (except the 'elf half' goes back to the more primal fey forbears).
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
Basically trying to figure out a reason why Rashemen and the hordelands are still so full of spirits and the rest of Faerun isn't.
Because whilst the rest of the Creatori (Creator races) seemed to have ruled all over Faerūn-proper (the Heartlands), the Fey are barely mentioned. Yet... they seem to have always been there. Even the Aeriee were originally all over Faerūn before they migrated (were forced) into other areas.
We have some clues. The Horde (and kara-Tur) stuff about spiritfolk is our main clue. We also have the stuff in Mark Sehestedt's novels about the fey in The Wastes (including a heavy Lythari presence - perhaps the closest group of elves to the fey originals). Lastly, we have the mention of the Fey giving the Imaskari something (knowledge?) in a mural in the novel Darkvison (which I enjoyed, BTW... I have no problem with Bruce Cordell's writing, just his tastes). All of that points to the 'fey homeland' being somewhere in or around The Hordelands.
I thought Ladinion might have been in the Hanya Maut Wasteland (just south of Tabot, east of the Utter east), because it fit nicely. I believe Gray Richardson (our resident Creator Race expert) agreed with me that the Black Diamond Affair should have taken place on Abeir-Toril, but he didn't lie my placement of ladinion (IIRC). We also uncovered some more tie-ins to the Fey in the same region, through what little Utter east lore we have (in Langdarma are three mountains known as 'the Sisters of Serenity' - more Othea-like archfey, now dormant/comatose?) In fact, Langdarma itself almost seems like a last little bit of the Fey Realms on Toril (its a Shangri-La knock-off in the Yehimals... which just so happens to be the place the dwarves originated from in The Realms).
As for The Black Dim=amond itself - the very thing that corruptd Auril and turned her into The Queen of Air & Darknees - I think thats the Black Diamond in the Crown of Horns. Now, Myrkul is closely associate with that crown - it may have even been his princely crown when he was a mortal in Murghōm.
And where is Murghōm? In the Hordelands... where else? It all comes full-circle. The more I study FR lore, the more connections I see. To be perfectly honest, I don't think all the 4e lore was 'new' - I think at least some of it harkened back to Ed's 'deeper secrets' (which may be why BC went in the direction he did - he was just a bit to overt about it).
I even explain-away why the Imaskari were so good at transportive magics (which both summonings and portals fall under). When the Fey left Ladinion/Toril for their new home, they greatly weakened the veil between the worlds (they literally tore a chunk of the world out and took it with them). Its actually easier to do things like 'Planeswalk' in the Taan (Hordelands) because of that, and it could be why Hro'nyewachu was left 'guarding the gate' there, in Akhrasut Neth. She may well be a form of 'plug' to stop one plane from leaking into the other.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2013 23:13:17 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2013 : 23:20:44
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So to explain why their presence is still heavier there - we have it where its easier to 'cross over' between the two worlds at that point, and its where they came from. The Fey may have spread outward to the other regions over time, but they would be 'the thickest' where they originated.
It could also be why demonbinding/summoning is so popular there - if the planer barrier is weakened, it should be easier to get anything to 'cross-over'.
Yamun Kahan also made extensive use of magic-dead zones during his campaigns - it seems the Weave itself is damaged in that area as well. The Weave may be the same thing as this 'veil between the worlds'. Could the fey - upon their leaving - tore away a piece of The Weave as well? 
Similar things have happened with the Moonshaes in 4e, as well as Evermeet. It seems wherever the fey (and their descendents) held sway, the planer barriers were weakened, and when conjunctions occur (magical chaos), large parcels of land are exchanged. Damn Fey are almost like a type of 'magic vampire' - they absorb mana from things around them (could their nature actually be like that of a magnet? That they attract arcane energy because its their opposite?)
Lastly, while I think the other three (non-human) Creators worked together (thats canon), the Fey remained separate. I have to wonder if its just coincidence that the Netherese knowledge originated with those others - through the Nether Scrolls, but the Imaskari seem to have gotten their start with knowledge gleaned from the Fey. Also note that one of Larloch's obsessions was Halaster, and Larloch was Netherese, and Halaster was Imaskari. There seems to have been some reason the Fey stood alone against the others - perhaps even walking amongst them, hidden in other forms. What if Fey magic is Sharran in origin? There has been a 'them vs us' attitude between magical forces right since the beginning of time.
Am I getting helpful yet?
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Dec 2013 23:31:23 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 05:24:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You see, thats where you keep losing me - I have never heard of this Chupoclops guy.
Thats why I was trying to contribute in any way I knew how, or with related material (each post I tried to relate it back to the Spirit World).
Toril, BTW, didn't exist when the Creator races were in power. Even if you completely ignore 4e, The Sundering still happened (it just wasn't about splitting Abeir and Toril apart). There was a world where the Creator Races frolicked, and then there was darkness, and then their was the 'brave new world' (even if it was the same planet, it did - canonically - have a new sun). Death did not exist in that early time - Death existed only after The War of Light & Darkness.
So, ummm... yeah. The world that pe-existed the Creator Races isn't the same as the current one, regardless. It would have different physics and everything (because the lack of death also means there is no decay, which effects EVERYTHING). Thats the world that this 'Spirit Realms' exists in. The GHotR even says 'the stars changed'.
And BTW, I only just now realized whenever I talked about the Spirit World (lumping together all transient planes), I didn't realize I was off-topic. I had forgotten where this all started (in the other thread), and that your idea for 'Spirit Realms' was an actual Realm. Sorry about that. I Sometimes I can be rather thick.
Chupoclops is a vestige from 3.5 Tome of Magic. Essentially, big "primordial" spider known for eating "ghosts"... which I read as spirits. Got chased to the ethereal plane by the gods who couldn't kill him. Later he's killed by a strange alliance of "mortals" (which I suppose is because he's lessened in power over time by being relegated to the ethereal, thus why "mortals" can do what gods can't). Its specifically noted that adventurers still occasionally run across his corpse on the ethereal. Do recommend reading the source material. He's not specific to the realms in that material, but he makes a decent addition for the early realms.... and he had to be somewhere. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 05:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So to explain why their presence is still heavier there - we have it where its easier to 'cross over' between the two worlds at that point, and its where they came from. The Fey may have spread outward to the other regions over time, but they would be 'the thickest' where they originated.
It could also be why demonbinding/summoning is so popular there - if the planer barrier is weakened, it should be easier to get anything to 'cross-over'.
Yamun Kahan also made extensive use of magic-dead zones during his campaigns - it seems the Weave itself is damaged in that area as well. The Weave may be the same thing as this 'veil between the worlds'. Could the fey - upon their leaving - tore away a piece of The Weave as well?
Similar things have happened with the Moonshaes in 4e, as well as Evermeet. It seems wherever the fey (and their descendents) held sway, the planer barriers were weakened, and when conjunctions occur (magical chaos), large parcels of land are exchanged. Damn Fey are almost like a type of 'magic vampire' - they absorb mana from things around them (could their nature actually be like that of a magnet? That they attract arcane energy because its their opposite?)
Lastly, while I think the other three (non-human) Creators worked together (thats canon), the Fey remained separate. I have to wonder if its just coincidence that the Netherese knowledge originated with those others - through the Nether Scrolls, but the Imaskari seem to have gotten their start with knowledge gleaned from the Fey. Also note that one of Larloch's obsessions was Halaster, and Larloch was Netherese, and Halaster was Imaskari. There seems to have been some reason the Fey stood alone against the others - perhaps even walking amongst them, hidden in other forms. What if Fey magic is Sharran in origin? There has been a 'them vs us' attitude between magical forces right since the beginning of time.
Am I getting helpful yet?
The general idea was that the Western part of Faerun and the southern part of Faerun actually have history for the early periods, but the unapproachable east doesn't. So, perhaps part of that is because it was more tribal and less organized. Also, it didn't have gods, and therefore when folk there died, their spirits remained with Toril. Their spirits then either merged with the land or with animals (thus creating elemental creatures, intelligent animals, etc...). Possibly this merging of spirit energy with the land created links with the feywild.
Much of this supposition started in another thread here
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18551 |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 05:46:40
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Just to throw my earlier ideas in here from the earlier thread, will want to compare to your timeline you proposed side by side, but its late right now
~ -35000 DR
The lands that will one day become the Unapproachable East and Bloodstone Lands were one gigantic forest, interspersed with bits of mountainous terrain. The natural flora and fauna were the predominant life forms, leading to organically forming temporary portals to the plane of Faerie. Through these portals leaked bits of Faerie magic, slowly transforming the land and the population. The most prominent effect of this was the formation of spontaneous telthors, or fey spirits, whenever a powerful being died who did not worship a deity. These fey spirits displayed a variety of powers, but the most common was the ability to possess a living being of its bloodline and share its traits. As a result, powerful animals might die, only to continue being involved with their pack or herd through one of their children, until the child grew strong enough to eject the fey spirit. In some tribes, this hosting of their ancestors was actually seen as a benefit and encouraged, but sometimes spirits took undue advantage of the situation and endangered the mortal that they inhabited unnecessarily. Telthors who were rejected by their pack, herd, or flock often began to walk the path of the dark spirits, becoming a threat to the living and nature itself by discovering powerful mystical secrets. Such threats would inevitably become the target of the great spirit hunters, Fenris, a giant primordial wolf, or Magnar, a giant primordial bear, or Felidae, a giant hunting cat rumored to take humanoid form, that travelled the lands of Merrobouros feasting upon the souls of those who would not return to the land from whence they came.
The gnolls, quaggoths, catfolk, lammasu, and wolfweres of the Spirit Realms were some of the first truly sentient humanoids in the area. It is believed that these were particularly powerful spirit beings whom Felidae, Magnar, and Fenris spared the final death by transforming them into a new lifeform. Their cultures were still extremely primitive and tribal, little more than small groups of hunters who had to prove themselves against their former families of wolves and bears. Lurue, the Unicorn Queen, is rumored to have created the centaurs, wemics, and hybsils from similar spirit beings throughout Merrobouros as well, though whether these were truly transformations or migrations through spontaneously forming portals is unknown. However, the more common transformation of Lurue was to combine the intellect of a spirit with the animal which it possessed, creating many intelligent, talking animals throughout the realms.
Over time, small migrations of beings from Faerie also made their way to this area of the realms, or spontaneously awoke due to interactions between Faerie and Toril. They were attracted to the pristine forest, and soon dryads, treants, satyrs, korreds,thorns and various other woodland fey were drawn to the area. It is unknown if Relkath of the Infinite Branches was such a migrant fey, or whether he was some powerful primordial born of the primeval power of the Forest. What is known is that he became a powerful factor within this area of Merrobouros, intending to spread his forest and quell any that would do it harm. Relkath began to form a kingdom of sorts for plant beings and fey in what today would be known as the Yuirwood, transforming sentient beings of other races into Wood Woads (MM3), Volodnis (see unapproachable east), and Woodlings and setting them to protect the forests in which they resided. Though his strength lay in the the area that would become the Yuirwood, through these servants Relkath spread his influence throughout what would become eastern Faerun.
~ -34500 DR
The threat of the Sarrukh is one that was enough to draw the attention of all the people's of the Spirit Realms. Their expansion into the area that would one day become Thay was very eventful, as they awoke great powers of fire and magma. To the forest dwelling people of the Spirit Realms, there was no greater threat, but to the being known as Relkath of the Infinite Branches, there was no greater blasphemy. The Sarrukh build small, heavily defensible fortifications that descend into the earth to prevent their being overrun by plant invaders. It is rumored that they fielded forces of flame salamanders and firenewts against the beings of the spirit realm, but they found themselves being defeated by Relkath's illusion-enhanced guerrilla warfare tactics. Sarrukh expansion into the Spirit Realm grinds to a halt, so they decide to try to build a second front to the north. Within a vast network of naturally occurring caverns, the Sarrukh secretly establish a foothold in what will eventually become Narathmault/Dun-Tharos. They begin binding powerful beings of elemental power to their will, and corrupting their essential nature with magics intended to make them more powerful. Building a portal to connect their holdings in the Priador/Thay to Narathmault/Dun-Tharos, the Sarrukh released a surprise assault on the northern portion of the Spirit Realms that sets the forest aflame. The Sarrukh then drew upon their powers of necromancy to refill their army with undead, or as the peoples of the Spirit Realms saw them, perversions of their ancestors. In their pride, the Sarrukh did not realize the fury they had awoken. The Sarrukh found themselves not only being pushed back, but actively sacrificed on impromptu altars setup in reverence to Relkath, Magnar, Fenris, and other powerful primordial beings found in the Spirit Realms. The Sarrukh sought to embed themselves within their underdark fortress that would become Narathmault, only to have the portal that would have allowed them to flee being destroyed. The slaughter of the Sarrukh was bloody, vicious, and thoroughly without mercy. The rituals employed by their slayers tainted their souls, such that they would never be accepted by their deities and would be confined to haunt the halls of their fortress to the end of days.
~ -34450 DR
Its unknown if they came from elsewhere in Faerun or from Faerie, or both, but the mostly deforested area that is now known as Thay attracts a large population of centaurs and hybsil. The hybsil spread themselves throughout the Spirit Realms, but also find themselves frequent targets of the gnoll, wolfwere, and quaggoth tribes in the area. The hybsil do find themselves cooperating with the plant kingdom ruled over by Relkath of the Infinite branches. The centaurs make no allegiance with any of these groups, but they do seek to live in harmony with nature, and as a result Relkath cedes the lands that the settle upon to them, so long as they serve as a buffer against the incursions of southern interlopers. The worship of Skerrit the Forester grows in the Spirit Realms.
~ -32000 DR
Araushnee and Fenmarel Mestarine hunt a powerful primordial spider known as Chupoclops (named for the sound its gnashing mandibles made when it was excited or feasting) within the realm of Faerie. They manage to chase this being to the world of Toril, a world of little interest to either deity at the time, and a world upon which they are blocked from entry. Chupoclops finds itself severely weakened and buries itself within the former Sarrukh stronghold that would become Narathmault/Dun-Tharos.... a place filled with the ghosts of the fallen Sarrukh. Chupoclops begins feeding upon these souls, slowly building its strength back. Chupoclops also uncovers Sarrukh rituals of transformation and begins building up a small army of ettercaps by combining giant spiders and captured spirits.
~ -31800 DR
Chupoclops had feasted upon all of the Sarrukh ghosts and required new spirits for sustenance. Unlike Fenris, Magnar, and Felidae, this primordial spider was a glutton for the raw power provided by the spirits of the land. Within a few decades, most of the Telthors found within the Spirit Realms were a victim of Chupoclops growing hunger, and many fled eastward to escape. Chupoclops then prepared a modified version of the Sarrukh transformation ritual, one that would turn sentient plant beings into night twists. Using Chupoclops own power over nightmares, the night twists would cause deadly dreams to anyone within miles of it, thus causing cases of mass death, and thereby freeing up their souls to feed upon. Using his links to the dream world, Chupoclops would then absorb the soul upon its demise. Unfortunately, these night twists could only exist in swampy environments, so it was necessary to draw its victims within range. Chupoclops' ettercaps were sent out to draw the ire of nearby tribes, only to lead them on merry chases through web entrapped swamps. Eventually, their pursuers would decide to camp for the night, and in the night they would succumb to their nightmares. The ettercaps would then bring the gathered bodies of the fallen to the night twist that it might feed upon the flesh.
The quaggoth population is particularly taken aback by this tactic. As a result, they retreat deeper within their caves, as the surface world seems to be filled with death whenever they go to sleep. They find the underdark caverns and soon begin to dominate this sparsely populated environment. The catfolk and wolfwere populations are decimated and never recover. Much of the lammasu population flees westward. Only the gnoll population manages to rebuild its numbers in the centuries that follow.
This transformation of plant beings naturally drew the ire of Relkath of the Infinite Branches. Unfortunately, Chupoclops had grown too powerful to kill, so Relkath had to pursue other options. Calling upon the aid of the Seelie Court, they banished Chupoclops from Toril and bound him to the ethereal plane, hoping that he would weaken over time. As part of the banishment, Chupoclops was forced to eject many undigested spirits, which became bound to the underground vault in which it had made its residence. They killed many of the ettercaps, though many escape to the wilderness. The night twists are considered innocent victims of Chupoclops' machinations, and they are instead petrified in hopes that they can one day discover a ritual to reverse the damage done to them.
Fearing that another great evil would take up residence within the underground residence that would become Narathmault, Relkath of the Infinite Branches leaves behind his kingdom to the south to rebuild the forest over this great subterannean evil. Relkath however has expended much of his power and must spend time to recover.
~ -31000 DR
The Tearfall occurs, creating the inner sea and destroying much of Relkath of the Infinite Branches' kingdom in what would be Aglarond later. Many fey and plant beings die in the aftermath. The population of Telthors (fey spirits) around what will become Aglarond, Ashanath and Rashemen begin to rise again. Relkath suffers heavily, and some believe that he has finally gone insane. It is whispered that Relkath begins binding the Telthors of what will become Aglarond to its soil in an attempt to regrow the damage done by the tearfall. However, little is seen of Relkath after this.
-30000 DR War of the Seldarine: Araushnee is cast down into the Demonweb Pits, where she becomes the demon-goddess Lolth.
~ -27000 DR
The fey open new portals from Faerie to Toril in order to combat the threat of the dragons. An elven deity considered an outcast amongst the Seldarine, Fenmaril Mestarine sends a tribe of green elves known as the Lythari to Toril to inhabit the lands that would become the Unapproachable East.
The Lythari discover a land of powerful telthors, fey spirits, including an entire pack of ghostly wolves. Using powerful fey magics, these green elves bond themselves with these wolf spirits and gain the ability to shapechange into wolves at will. Other more solitary elves bond themselves to the spirits of great lynx spirits. Some elves within the tribe, seeing the feral nature overtaking their brothers, break away and begin bonding their spirits with more noble animals such as stags, owls, eagles, bears, griffins, etc... These break away elves begin worshipping the being known today as Lurue.
~ -26400 DR
The dark Archfey known as Cegilune, the hag queen, discovers the old Sarrukh portal beneath what will become Narathmault/Dun-Tharos. Attuning it to the realm of Faerie, she sends through a large variety and number of hags to spread her influence on Toril. The hags find the tortured spirits left behind by the battle between the Seelie Court and Chupoclops centuries before. The hags then acquire goblin slaves to serve and protect their community, though whether these goblins came from Faerie or from other areas of Faerun is unknown. This society of hags becomes known as the Great Covey of Bheuristahl.
~ -26350 DR
The Lythari tribe of elven shapechangers comes into conflict with the local gnoll population, who have taken up the worship of the fiend Yeenoghu after coming into contact with their cousins from Western Faerun. The gnolls ally themselves with the Great Covey of Bheuristahl, who begin trading larvae to Yeenoghu in return for establishing the means to transfer small handfuls of abyssal fiends to Toril. The hags breed with these fiends, producing particularly powerful hagspawn and hags.
The Lythari initially were winning the conflict, but eventually they are pushed further and further east. Some Lythari escape to the western realms utilizing the natural portal network to the lands of Faerie.
~ -26300 DR
The Great Covey of Bheuristahl forms an alliance of convenience with the growing giant kingdom of Ostoria. The Bheur and annis hags begin mating with the giants energetically, using their magical abilities to deceive the giants into believing they were mating with other members of their tribes. The number of hagspawn in their community increases exponentially.
In studying the secrets of the Sarrukh transformation magics and dream images sent by Cegilune, the Hags develop a ritual to turn the tortured spirits in Narathmault into larvae. Using dark rituals of sacrifice involving captured elemental beings, these larvae are turned into fiends. The fiends are then bound to protect the growing hag community. Other rituals are developed to transform powerful hags into night hags, using the blood of Chupoclops to instill these new hags with powers to become ethereal and give people nightmares. Chupoclops freely provides this blood in return for sacrifices, and its blood is found to be useful for many other things. These night hags begin sacrificing sentient beings to create more larvae, which they use to further grow their community.
~ -26000 DR
Ogres are born into the world via Othea mating with Vaprak. Viewed as an aberration by the giants of Ostoria, the Great Covey of Bheuristahl welcomes these abominations to live amongst them. While this does not cause war with Ostoria, it does strain relations between the two societies. These ogres replace their goblin predecessors as the millitant arm of the covey, and the goblins become more of a slave and cattle population. Many goblins escape over time into the surrounding mountains and forest and begin breeding aggressively.
~ -25900
The Great Covey of Bheuristahl uncovers a powerful form of entrapped beings known as Vestiges. Through the formation of pacts with these beings, the hags learn to share their perception with these entrapped beings in return for power.
~ -25800 DR
A small group of dragons take up residence in the mountains and forests of what will one day become Impiltur. Through fear and awe, they turn the local population of goblins to their service. Through breeding, they create a more intelligent, less fearful and stronger version of goblin.
~ -25700 DR
A powerful solar named Balam, tasked with stopping the sacrifice of sentient beings by the gods of good, arrives on Toril and elicits the aid of the remaining lammasu population. They turn their focus upon the Great Covey of Bheuristahl and begin planning an assault. Unfortunately, they underestimated the power of their foes. The blood of lammasu stained the halls of Bheuristahl/Narathmault/Dun-Tharos and any captured are sacrificed to the greater glory of Cegilune. Their petrified hearts become powerful heartstones which further empower the rulers of Bheuristahl. In a powerful ritual reputedly led by the great hag goddess Cegilune herself, Balam is sacrificed in a ritual that both darkens and twists its spirit, entrapping Balam in the Place where Vestiges Reside.
~ -25500 DR
The dragons living in what will become Impiltur decide it is time to expand their territory. Their goblinoid population has grown large and strains the environment in which it grows. The lands have grown deforested. They set their eyes upon their ancient task masters, the Great Covey of Bheuristahl. The assault is sudden and bloody, overwhelming the defenses of the hags with sheer numbers. The hags, seeing their inevitable fall, use magical means to flee throughout the multiverse. Several dragons take up residence within the depths of Bheuristahl and begin studying its ancient secrets. It is believed that at least one dragon delves into the dark arts of pact binding. Rumors of draconic breeding with captured fiends are also unconfirmed. The haunted halls of Bheuristahl become a staging ground between the giants of Ostoria and the dragons of Toril.
~ -25200 DR to -25000 DR
The dragons in the haunted halls of Bheuristahl are assaulted by a powerful force of giants intent upon ejecting them. The giants come from the nearby realm of Helligheim (Ironfang Keep). The assault is a surprise to the dragons and goblinoids living within the halls. They are slain brutally and efficiently. The giants claim the upper portion of the halls, but the superstitious giants build strong barriers to block off the lesser depths. Small raids between the Dragons of what will become Impiltur and the giants of Ostoria continue for the next two hundred years, until the elves construct the Dracorage Mythal. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 13:47:53
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Yeah, I like the hordelands being filled with fey as well, just not so "greek" of a type of fey, but more Russian/Slavic (i.e. more apt to have a dark side).
I do believe the date is right for Ulutiu to go slumbering being -2550 instead of it being a typo as posited. The reason why I state this is that Powers and Pantheons states that the last time Ulutiu had an avatar was about four thousand years prior. Noting, this does keep Annam around for a similar amount of time, which MAY be useful..... for instance, if Annam brought the Rus to Toril (whether by accident or design, unknown). Perhaps the seafarers who settled Ruathym from "the west" were from the "islands" of Anchorome (whether Anchorome is islands or a heavily covered in rivers continent is a good question) or from the continent I see called Aurune. Anyway, the reason I bring this up is that I had assumed that the great glacier covered the northern part of the area, but the lore would indicate otherwise.
I did the Sarrukh before the hag kingdom because of dates found in GHotR. Essentially, the Sarrukh rise was near Thay (well, kind of... south of Mulhorand). However, I posit that due to the influence of the primordials/archfey of the Spirit Realms they actually left the Unapproachable East alone.
-35000 DR the Sarrukh establish the realm of Okoth, south of modern-day Mulhorand. Within a hundred years, most of Faerūn is theirs.
Essentially, I wanted the hags around at the same time as the giants of Helligheim, and that came about after the Sarrukh.
The Lurue worshippers amongst the Lythari were the "break away" elves. I could have worded it better I guess. Essentially, the elves that didn't want to bond with feral wolf spirits, and instead chose to bond with things like horses, stags, wise giant owls, griffons, friendly bears, etc... This gives a hook for anything someone might want to do later of some elves that shapechange into other animals besides wolves.
As to the split front, was it a wise decision? Ultimately no. However, it may have been driven by the needs at that time (maybe the hags were considering an alliance with the giants... maybe the goblins were determined to face off against the hags for revenge and the dragons were trying to make the best of a bad situation.... after all the goblins could leave and swear allegiance to the giants, they'd already flipped on the hags). Its main purpose was to drive out the hags and then fuel the conflict between the giants and dragons. Ultimately, Helligheim's ONLY surviving outpost was what becomes Ironfang Keep, and perhaps that was because of this bad move by the dragons.
Yeah, I want to put our stuff side by side and work through them both. I can't right now, because I've got my girlfriend and her daughter coming over and the house is a mess. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2013 : 17:50:39
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quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal
The idea if they fey In the hordelands and then splitting towards faerun and kara tur is good. In ancient times the hordelands may have been the biggest inland sea according to the blurb on lake ashane. So those mountains may have been on an island in that sea. The fey then head their separate ways and when the hordelands are drained other fey move back there.
On seas: there is a lake on the map of The Great Dale from UE - lake Murthil - that appears on no other map (that I know of). Also, when you read through the Desert of Desolation modules, it specifically states that the desert had large bodies of water and rivers flowing through it, before the Pharonic Pantheon invaded and destroyed Imaskar. The map in GHotR is incorrect - it depicts non of those waterways (they just filled-in the desert with grass). Also, the Quoya desert didn't exist then either - the nation of Tsharoon sat on that spot (which was probably a Imaskari survivor state - there were MANY of those).
What that means is that the Taan region wasn't always 'The Endless Wastes' they are now - they were much more hospitable, with a great deal of water. In fact, just like Anauroch, the Raurin desert continued to grow for time after the magical devastation (only the Plains of Purple Dust should have been part of that original blasted area). As for the Quoya Desert - it didn't even exist at the time of Athalantar (about a milenia ago).
Something dried-up all the water and turned the area into a wastelend, and that was probably the invasion by the Pharonic Pantheon. However, I have hypothesized that perhaps the fertile nature of that region was itself artificial - something created in the distant past by the Fey (I had this theory long ago, in the Utter East thread over on the WotC forums). This actually ties in nicely to your 'Spirit realms' concept.
The Maraloi (I picture them as tailed elves, like Huldrafolk) were spirit folk, and had retreated at some point into the Ama basin (the far north of K-T). The had an empire there for a time, until they disappeared entirely. We also have the Maviddi - a strange people that dwelled in what looked to be something like enormous termite mounds (evidence of dark elves/drow in the east?) Both of those peoples are Horde/K-T canon.
As for the Maraloi - isn't it odd that a fey people would want to dwell in such a cold, foreboding place? True, it would have been a great place to hide from others (its one enormous, primal wilderness), but fey don't really like the cold (except for cold Fey, but I am talking about things like sprites, and we have canon that they exist there). What if the fey (half-fey, really - the true fey all left just prior to The Sundering) found a way to warm up the entire area? I have some disjointed evidence of various, mysterious pyramids 'from ancient times' all along the arctic circle of Faerūn - could these have been used to focus magical energies and keep the northern realms warmer?
If so, it would mean that many of the glaciers that sat atop mountain ranges would have melted, and flooded all the lower planes - places like The Taan. What the Imaskari may have discovered was the abandoned paradise the fey spirtfolk created and left behind. So either that magic has worn-out, or the Pharonic (and possibly Orcish) deific invasions shorted-out the magic that was warming up those regions, and the Taan has reverted back to its inhospitable, dry terrain types.
Also, the Mountain of Iron - a highly magnetic mountain just east of the Bay of Raum (Yal Tengri/Great Ice Sea) - is canon. A magnetic mountain of Sold Iron? Sounds like something someone (the Raumathari?) would have created to keep the fey out of an area. I don't know how that could possibly relate to the other stuff I've been mulling-over; it may just be how someone chased the Maraloi out of the Taan and on into the Ama basin (just one of MANY theories one could come up with).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2013 13:00:33 |
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The Spirit Realms
