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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 17:58:55
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Just wondering, there's obviously some realms deities who are interlopers. Whether their entire pantheon came over, or just the individual deities, would be of interest, but I'm betting there's no answer. HOWEVER, I'm just wondering if anyone has ever compiled a listing of the earliest known CANON references to certain deities who are considered to be from other pantheons. The ones I'm interested in are.
Oghma
Silvanus
Loviatar
Mielikki
Tyr
Tyche
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 18:03:56
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some of them, just bear the name and likeness though.
Tyr's arrival was lsited in the grand history of the realms. the muthohaund pantheon was too.
as far as I know, nobody has compiled one. |
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My FR fan fiction
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 18:16:12
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| Yeah, I figured no one has compiled one for all of them. However, on occasion, some folks take a particular interest in X deity and they'll note that they remember Y happening on D date (usually providing a reference source). That's typically how I've uncovered a lot of this kind of stuff in these forums. Its how we narrowed in on the dates when Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ascended. Also with that kind of stuff, you also tend to get an idea of where the religion was located at the time, etc.... The Mulhorandi/Untheric Pantheon is well documented as to its arrival dates, etc... so I'm not looking for their dates. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 21:59:56
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The source you're looking for is On Hallowed Grounds, a planescape supplement. It talks about these interloppers and why they migrated from their original pantheons.
As it seems they did this on their own, to escape their pantheons for different reasons. Their pantheons as a whole did not follow (or at least not yet) |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2013 : 23:04:42
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| Isn't Helm (Heimdal) a Norse interloper? Or are you just not interested in him? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 00:23:12
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Spelljammer lore addresses the topic as well, although the only multispheric deity it describes with any access to the Realms is Ptah, an ancient Egyptian god. Don‘t forget the Mulhorandi (Egyptian) and Untheric (Babylonian) pantheons as well, once active in the Realms. While you‘re at it, you can include all the demihuman pantheons, humanoid deities, and monstrous deities which are/were actively worshipped in the Realms.
Deities from Oerth and from Krynn do sometimes have minor interactions with Toril, but such things are rare.
Ao might (or might not!) be defined as multispheric, as first described within the Avatar trilogy. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 01:40:38
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Just wondering, there's obviously some realms deities who are interlopers. Whether their entire pantheon came over, or just the individual deities, would be of interest, but I'm betting there's no answer. HOWEVER, I'm just wondering if anyone has ever compiled a listing of the earliest known CANON references to certain deities who are considered to be from other pantheons. The ones I'm interested in are.
Oghma
Silvanus
Loviatar
Mielikki
Tyr
Tyche
I'm not sure if this helps much, but "Down to Earth Divinity" by Greenwood in Dragon #54 (1981) describes the sources of inspiration for many of Faerun's deities. It doesn't get into how the deities first fit into the actual history of the Realms, but it's a starting point, perhaps.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 05:15:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Isn't Helm (Heimdal) a Norse interloper? Or are you just not interested in him?
I don't know of anything that makes even an implicit connection between Helm and Heimdal. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 05:16:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Spelljammer lore addresses the topic as well, although the only multispheric deity it describes with any access to the Realms is Ptah, an ancient Egyptian god.
Ptah was an odd case, with access to pretty much all spheres. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 07:20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Spelljammer lore addresses the topic as well, although the only multispheric deity it describes with any access to the Realms is Ptah, an ancient Egyptian god.
Ptah was an odd case, with access to pretty much all spheres.
Every time Ptah comes up in a discussion here at Candlekeep, I never miss an opportunity to pass along Tom Costa's brilliant and comprehensive write-up. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 11:36:51
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Loviatar - earliest canon references i could find are:
1) Prayers from the Faithful page 44, middle of the third paragraph: the Lash of Loviatar is first heard of in 778 DR in th Vilhon Reach.
2) Shining South (3e) page 104, 831 DR year entry: the 112 half-elven priestesses of Loviatar led by Cathyr betray the Arkaiuns in Dambrath (meaning by that date Loviatar faith was already pretty well established in Dambrath).
Also from Grand History of the Realms we have:
a) page 121, 1150 DR year entry: "A great plague sweeps the Sword Coast, coupled with increased attacks by troll and orc tribes. Worship of Talona and Loviatar soars."
b) page 126, 1245 DR year entry (Year of Pain): "Worship of Loviatar gains great popularity. Most of the modern temples to Loviatar in the North are founded."
Leading me to believe Loviatar's worship moved from southern Faerun to northern Faerun.
Mielikki - earliest canon reference i could find is in GHotR page 93, 627 DR year entry: "Ecamane Truesilver and his nine apprentices arrive in Silverymoon [574, 637]. Claiming that five goddesses (Eldath, Mielikki, Lurue, Mystra, and Sehanine) drew them there, the mages create a school of magic patterned on elf teachings."
Noting here that Mielikki's clergy took active part in Myth Drannor defense by partecipating in the Templestars and that priests of Mielikki showed up at the Dancing Place in 720 DR to reform the Harpers, meaning her priesthood was consistent in Myth Drannor yet was spread beyond the borders of Cormanthyr.
Oghma - from Faiths & Pantheons page 52: "Followers of Oghma tell an interesting tale regarding the earliest days of existence. Not long after Shar and Selune created Toril and gave birth to Chauntea, the world's animating spirit, a traveler ventured to the world from a distant realm. He came upon a chaotic landscape of indistinct, shapeless concepts yearning to be given solidity. To each of these concepts he gave a name that would define it in the aeons to come. Such was the power of these names that the concepts transcended their elusive existence, bound to physical form in the material world. Thus did Oghma, the Binder of What is Known, give order to chaos and claim an honored place among Toril's oldest deities."
I remember reading somehwere that Oghma was brought in among others by Selune to help and advice her in the War of Light and Darkness but i can't find the source right now.
Also we have, from Faiths & Avatars page 105, middle of the second paragraph of the right column: "... Herne, a corrupted incarnation of the Master of the Hunt, brought to the Realms by an ancient wave of immigrants along with Oghma and other powers."
And from GHotR, page 51, -256 year entry, Oghma is listed as Curna in the Durpari Adama that began spreading in that year.
Silvanus - couldn't find much, GHotR lists some dates for the founding of various druidic circles or temples to Silvanus and the earliest is (page 66) c. 200: "Cedarsproke, a druid enclave dedicated to Silvanus, is established deep in the Gulthmere Forest [1358]."
Prayers from the Faithful doesn't list dates but in the writeup of the Leaves of Green says: "No mortal knows the exact age of Leaves of Green. It first comes to light in certain Halruaan writings, described as something old even then, taken from the ruins of Netheril by the wealthy but little-known Darusk family. These claims may be fanciful, but it is known that the Darusk clan settled in northern Halruaa (where, much diminished in wealth and numbers, folk of the Darusk lineage can be found to this day), and there set about taming the uplands into a sort of vast wooded park, with “wild” plants carefully placed, underbrush cleared, and the land sculpted to provide easy walking under giant shade trees and a series of pleasant vistas over tranquil lakes and picturesque valleys."
Tyche - she appears in Netheril: Empire of Magic and the earliest reference i could find there is this on page 77 (description of the enclave of Imbrue): "A large temple to Tyche was completed in 1114, and the religious edifice quickly became a draw to other faithful of Tyche who made a pilgrimage to the site." Going with GHotR conversion for NY to DR we have -2745 DR.
Also the write-up of Nether the Elder (page 106) claim he was a priest of Tyche 10 years before the founding of Netheril so by -3869 DR (but i don't know how much we can trust those NPC write-ups).
Tyr - earliest reference i could find is in Prayers from the Faithful, page 9, third paragraph: "Belaros dwelt somewhere on the coast of the Lake of Steam some 4,000 years ago, and saw some 80-odd winters. When he died in battle, he was known as the “Old Lion of Justice.” He created the Balance in his 66th summer, after retreating into seclusion with the mightiest priests of Tyr, on a mountaintop somewhere on the northern border of Turmish, where the mortals met, so believers say, with Grimjaws himself." So, assuming PftF is set at "current date" around 1360 DR, we are at about -2600 DR. A nice chunk of time before the Procession of Justice so i'm inclined to believe the deity in this case was Anachtyr and not Tyr (considering the Lake of Steam was Calishite/Shoon territory) but the reference still stands.
Otherwise the earliest (confirmed, we might say) reference is -247 for the Procession of Justice (GHotR page 52).
[Also, on an unrelated note, the sidebar on page 54 about a rieldoxia dating back to the Procession of Justice (from -247 to -238) has Beshaba in it, so {insert here conlcusions about the Dawn Cataclysm}]
That's all, hope this helps. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 14:25:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Isn't Helm (Heimdal) a Norse interloper? Or are you just not interested in him?
Actually, damn good point. Helm is one of the FEW deities that is so much like the actual Heimdall that I'd bet they're the same (I mean, he stood protecting the heavens at the top of a rainbow bridge that connected Heaven and Earth....). Yes, if anyone has some really early dates on Helm, I'd be interested in those too. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 14:26:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
The source you're looking for is On Hallowed Grounds, a planescape supplement. It talks about these interloppers and why they migrated from their original pantheons.
As it seems they did this on their own, to escape their pantheons for different reasons. Their pantheons as a whole did not follow (or at least not yet)
And yet it gives no information as to WHEN these things happened or WHERE their believers were first located. It gives a little one sentence blurb for each. I'm interested more in when these things occurred (roughly) and where (roughly) more than the why of it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 14:46:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Loviatar - earliest canon references i could find are:
1) Prayers from the Faithful page 44, middle of the third paragraph: the Lash of Loviatar is first heard of in 778 DR in th Vilhon Reach.
2) Shining South (3e) page 104, 831 DR year entry: the 112 half-elven priestesses of Loviatar led by Cathyr betray the Arkaiuns in Dambrath (meaning by that date Loviatar faith was already pretty well established in Dambrath).
Also from Grand History of the Realms we have:
a) page 121, 1150 DR year entry: "A great plague sweeps the Sword Coast, coupled with increased attacks by troll and orc tribes. Worship of Talona and Loviatar soars."
b) page 126, 1245 DR year entry (Year of Pain): "Worship of Loviatar gains great popularity. Most of the modern temples to Loviatar in the North are founded."
Leading me to believe Loviatar's worship moved from southern Faerun to northern Faerun.
Mielikki - earliest canon reference i could find is in GHotR page 93, 627 DR year entry: "Ecamane Truesilver and his nine apprentices arrive in Silverymoon [574, 637]. Claiming that five goddesses (Eldath, Mielikki, Lurue, Mystra, and Sehanine) drew them there, the mages create a school of magic patterned on elf teachings."
Noting here that Mielikki's clergy took active part in Myth Drannor defense by partecipating in the Templestars and that priests of Mielikki showed up at the Dancing Place in 720 DR to reform the Harpers, meaning her priesthood was consistent in Myth Drannor yet was spread beyond the borders of Cormanthyr.
Oghma - from Faiths & Pantheons page 52: "Followers of Oghma tell an interesting tale regarding the earliest days of existence. Not long after Shar and Selune created Toril and gave birth to Chauntea, the world's animating spirit, a traveler ventured to the world from a distant realm. He came upon a chaotic landscape of indistinct, shapeless concepts yearning to be given solidity. To each of these concepts he gave a name that would define it in the aeons to come. Such was the power of these names that the concepts transcended their elusive existence, bound to physical form in the material world. Thus did Oghma, the Binder of What is Known, give order to chaos and claim an honored place among Toril's oldest deities."
I remember reading somehwere that Oghma was brought in among others by Selune to help and advice her in the War of Light and Darkness but i can't find the source right now.
Also we have, from Faiths & Avatars page 105, middle of the second paragraph of the right column: "... Herne, a corrupted incarnation of the Master of the Hunt, brought to the Realms by an ancient wave of immigrants along with Oghma and other powers."
And from GHotR, page 51, -256 year entry, Oghma is listed as Curna in the Durpari Adama that began spreading in that year.
Silvanus - couldn't find much, GHotR lists some dates for the founding of various druidic circles or temples to Silvanus and the earliest is (page 66) c. 200: "Cedarsproke, a druid enclave dedicated to Silvanus, is established deep in the Gulthmere Forest [1358]."
Prayers from the Faithful doesn't list dates but in the writeup of the Leaves of Green says: "No mortal knows the exact age of Leaves of Green. It first comes to light in certain Halruaan writings, described as something old even then, taken from the ruins of Netheril by the wealthy but little-known Darusk family. These claims may be fanciful, but it is known that the Darusk clan settled in northern Halruaa (where, much diminished in wealth and numbers, folk of the Darusk lineage can be found to this day), and there set about taming the uplands into a sort of vast wooded park, with “wild” plants carefully placed, underbrush cleared, and the land sculpted to provide easy walking under giant shade trees and a series of pleasant vistas over tranquil lakes and picturesque valleys."
Tyche - she appears in Netheril: Empire of Magic and the earliest reference i could find there is this on page 77 (description of the enclave of Imbrue): "A large temple to Tyche was completed in 1114, and the religious edifice quickly became a draw to other faithful of Tyche who made a pilgrimage to the site." Going with GHotR conversion for NY to DR we have -2745 DR.
Also the write-up of Nether the Elder (page 106) claim he was a priest of Tyche 10 years before the founding of Netheril so by -3869 DR (but i don't know how much we can trust those NPC write-ups).
Tyr - earliest reference i could find is in Prayers from the Faithful, page 9, third paragraph: "Belaros dwelt somewhere on the coast of the Lake of Steam some 4,000 years ago, and saw some 80-odd winters. When he died in battle, he was known as the “Old Lion of Justice.” He created the Balance in his 66th summer, after retreating into seclusion with the mightiest priests of Tyr, on a mountaintop somewhere on the northern border of Turmish, where the mortals met, so believers say, with Grimjaws himself." So, assuming PftF is set at "current date" around 1360 DR, we are at about -2600 DR. A nice chunk of time before the Procession of Justice so i'm inclined to believe the deity in this case was Anachtyr and not Tyr (considering the Lake of Steam was Calishite/Shoon territory) but the reference still stands.
Otherwise the earliest (confirmed, we might say) reference is -247 for the Procession of Justice (GHotR page 52).
[Also, on an unrelated note, the sidebar on page 54 about a rieldoxia dating back to the Procession of Justice (from -247 to -238) has Beshaba in it, so {insert here conlcusions about the Dawn Cataclysm}]
That's all, hope this helps.
You, Goodsir, are awesome.
So, we know Loviatar came here before 778 DR and had involvement in the mid to southern half of Faerun. We know that Mielikki came here before 627 DR, and apparently had more influence spreading northward. Just because they're from the same pantheon, I'm going to initially assume the same arrival date and the same influx of people (and throw Kiputytto in the mix too). Anyone find anything earlier?
Oghma and Silvanus both sound like they may have been some of the original interlopers, which kind of fits with the links to the feywild being stronger early on. Maybe only these two came over (maybe there was an influx of fey bards, wizards and druids).
Tyche it would seem also predates most civilized human cultures for the most part too.
Tyr, ok, so we pretty much have a starting date for him then. (This does bring up that I'd like to research the Calishite original religion, but that's another thing for another day)
Good find on the Beshaba info.
interesting note about Beshaba |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 15:46:10
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| Since Mielikki is known as the 'Daughter of Silvanus' but initially, her divine realm was on the material realm (as was Eldath's incidentally, they both moved to the planes shortly after the ToT), I'd posit that she's not an interloper at all but the offspring of Silvanus and someone/something native to Toril's sphere. |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 17:02:43
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Do we have a DR/Earth 'year to year' date equivalent somewhere in canon? I know we've had 'crossover' visits from Elminster to Ed throughout the Dragon Magazine columns on Realms lore down the years (and also in the assorted "Wizards Three" articles) and even visits by Qilue and Laeral to dispense lore to others as well. Add to that the "importation" of the Mulhorandi people and we should be able to reckon some dates.
I ask this as it would be interesting to see when varied Earth based interloper deities made their 'jump' reckoned in BC/AD years. One of my favorite scenes from the classic movie "Excalibur" is where Merlin is questioning Morgana about the basic lore of magic and they come upon the ruin of a shrine to an older Celtic deity, Merlin proceeds to explain that the "old gods" are gone, having been displaced by the new "one God". I've always considered that to be an excellent game related summary of the departure of the pagan deities from our world and their arrival in the worlds of D&D. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 17:36:10
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
Since Mielikki is known as the 'Daughter of Silvanus' but initially, her divine realm was on the material realm (as was Eldath's incidentally, they both moved to the planes shortly after the ToT), I'd posit that she's not an interloper at all but the offspring of Silvanus and someone/something native to Toril's sphere.
No, that's specifically called out as a lie in Faiths and Avatars.
"Mielikki is allied with and in the serviced of Silvanus, and with the growing power of that god she was being diminished in her own right. In 1369 DR, she radically reorganized her priesthood, and the boost in power this gave her has forestalled her decline and allowed her to establish her own realm in the Outer Planes for the first time. Her followers had already added the title “Daughter to Silvanus” to her other names previous to this point as an honorarium, causing some confusion since she is not Silvanus’s daughter.
Inaccurate legends have since grown up to explain the title in which
Mielikki is said to be the offspring of dalliance between Silvanus and
Hanali Celanil, the elf goddess of romantic love and beauty."
Also, in specifically regarding Mielikki, we have specific references that she was a deity bound to Toril until after the ToT when she was able to go to the outer planes (just like those Mulan manifestations....). I've specifically put a question to Ed, but I doubt I'll get an answer. What has occurred to me is that the Finnish interloper deities might have also been blocked by the Imaskari God Barrier and done the same basic thing as the Mulan Gods (that being they had worshippers arrive here, and only SOME of the Finnish deities were willing to get in some kind of transport and send over manifestations of themselves). However, whenever they got here, they didn't have god kings to fight or a people to free. They may also have hidden themselves away and not tried to draw attention to the fact that they weren't able to manifest on the outer planes, thus somewhat hiding from their worshippers their weakness. Still, we know that they lost at least one of their number (Kiputytto, sp?). Also, given the extreme difference in viewpoint between these deities, their followers may have split into different cultures after arriving (explaining why Mielikki was strong in the north and Loviatar stronger in the south). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 18:10:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
Do we have a DR/Earth 'year to year' date equivalent somewhere in canon?
Kind of, from (you guessed it) Grand History of the Realms, page 142: 1357 DR Year of the Prince "In this year, on an alternate Material Plane world known as Earth, Ed of the Greenwood assembles various travelogues, maps, and other works from Elminster of Shadowdale into the first publication of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting."
I don't know off-hand what year the OGB was published but i think that's the reference, so you have 1357 DR = 19something Earth Year. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 18:23:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
Do we have a DR/Earth 'year to year' date equivalent somewhere in canon?
Kind of, from (you guessed it) Grand History of the Realms, page 142: 1357 DR Year of the Prince "In this year, on an alternate Material Plane world known as Earth, Ed of the Greenwood assembles various travelogues, maps, and other works from Elminster of Shadowdale into the first publication of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting."
I don't know off-hand what year the OGB was published but i think that's the reference, so you have 1357 DR = 19something Earth Year.
True... But it's been significantly less than 100 years since that happened. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 19:38:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
Do we have a DR/Earth 'year to year' date equivalent somewhere in canon?
Kind of, from (you guessed it) Grand History of the Realms, page 142: 1357 DR Year of the Prince "In this year, on an alternate Material Plane world known as Earth, Ed of the Greenwood assembles various travelogues, maps, and other works from Elminster of Shadowdale into the first publication of the FORGOTTEN REALMS campaign setting."
I don't know off-hand what year the OGB was published but i think that's the reference, so you have 1357 DR = 19something Earth Year.
True... But it's been significantly less than 100 years since that happened.
Also, we can't trust any kind of correlation between the two, because initially the flow was like 4 FR years to one earth year... then it jumped to a larger amount... then it slowed down in 3e, until right at the end of 3e when it suddenly sped up enormously. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 13 Dec 2013 : 22:55:09
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Ed‘s Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (the famous FRC0 “Grey box) was published in 1986CE. But Dale Reckoning years have progressed sometimes at the same pace as ours, sometimes in decade spurts, once spanning a century ... time flow between these worlds (and many others in D&D) appears to be asymmetrical and inconstant, we don‘t have enough data points to confirm a function to relate them. Things become impossibly complicated when one considers Ed‘s portals to various locations spanning time and space across these worlds.
And don‘t forget that Ed published Realmslore long before FRC0, indeed his writings about what became the Realms predated the D&D campaign by several Earth decades and half of Mirt the Moneylender‘s lifetime.
Search Candlekeep for “Chronology of the Realms“ to find links to several excellent attempts to correlate D&D calendars and timelines. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2013 : 18:51:18
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"True... But it's been significantly less than 100 years since that happened."
It's funny, the only people to transit back and forth from the Realms to Earth (mainly for the purposes of communicating with Ed or TSR personnel, Lol) have been the Chosen of Mystra. It is therefore pretty logical that during the Spellplague period, with Mystra dead and the chosen stripped of power, that we got no such 'visits' and that portals seemed to be 'closed' between here and the Realms.
What's more, one could argue that the absence of the Weave might have further severed the regular connections between the worlds, and the merging of Aber and Toril might have placed us further out of synch (i.e. the 100+ year 'timejump'). Perhaps, with the restoration of the Weave, the return of Mystra, and the soon to be Sundering all restoring Toril to its 'normal' magical state we will again see the timelines stabilize and the portals between the two worlds re-open. Maybe, if we are lucky, we might even get another visit from the old Sage of Shadowdale himself with an update or three on doings in the Realms (that'd be a highlight of my Gen Con 2014 for sure, Lol).
As a side note, I've used these very explanations for why contact and travel have been cut off in my recent home game. I started it in 2010 (post Spellplague from our POV here) and instead of just sending my players from Earth to the Realms as usual I also sent them back in time (to 1369) to showcase this 'feature' of the Spellplague. Now sure, it didn't hurt that I hated the 4E changes and so liked the idea of sending a group "Quantum Leap" style to try to 'fix' them, but it also didn't hurt that I was able to come up with a logical reason why contact and travel between the two places was cut off.
I'll certainly be very interested to see if we get a return to the 1E, 2E, and 3E days of 'drop in visits' with 5E. I, for one, was a huge fan of "Wizards Three" and would love to see WoTC adopt the conceit again. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7971 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2013 : 22:38:28
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| Ah now, the only hole in your hypothesis is that Ed and WotC continue to publish Realmslore, up to, including, and beyond those time periods wherein Mystra and her Weave failed. If contact between the Realms and Earth were severed, then how could Ed and TSR/WotC be aware of the events which transpired during the Avatar Crisis or in fact anything at all which happened beyond the Spellplague? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2013 : 00:04:09
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Ayrik,
Having a vague idea of what was transpiring (or just running trends out in time and speculating) and having very specific information about the day to day (and year to year) details of the Realms are two very different things... Think for a moment about the quality and depth of lore published in 1E, 2E, and 3E versus what we generally got in the 4E timeframe. Sure, there were sourcebooks and modules, but they were a lot more 'flexible' and 'detail light' than the Volo's Guides, OGB, 3E hardcover source books and what not.
For the sake of argument (and a bit of fun), we could say the admittedly extant 4E period events were based on either:
1) the designers rejecting the 'Elminister connection' (lets say it is akin to not believing in Santa Claus...) and striking out on their own with novel ideas of their own devising, serving themselves from the 'real' happenings of the Realms - so we got less detailed lore during this span (and a huge nebulous time jump)
or
2) the 'designer/writer creative process' and the 'health of the Realms' is something of a two way street (for a glimpse of what this might shake out like, read the Falconfar series by Ed) and so the 4E team 'nuked' the Realms when they decided to make the RSE changes of 4E, severing all but the most tenuous link to the 'real' events of the Realms (which existed then only in the unconscious imaginations of its classic lore masters/lore keepers)
Either way, one could suggest that the recent 'snap back' 5E and the Sundering represents is the 'truth' of the Realms timeline reasserting itself. To use a physics analogy, the massive changes wrought to the time stream/timeline/space time continuum by Mystra's death (and the Weave's disruption) were like pulling on an elastic band to the point of snapping it. Inevitably the energy required to keep the band taut runs out and the 'normal' time stream/timeline/space time continuum reasserts itself in a grand 'twang' of released potential energy (aka 'The Sundering'). That, or it breaks, and the energy is lost forever to entropy (aka Shar gets the 'W', Lol).
Let's hope Shar keeps getting punched in the face as we transit into 5E... |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
Edited by - Kris the Grey on 15 Dec 2013 00:06:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2013 : 06:53:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
It's funny, the only people to transit back and forth from the Realms to Earth (mainly for the purposes of communicating with Ed or TSR personnel, Lol) have been the Chosen of Mystra. It is therefore pretty logical that during the Spellplague period, with Mystra dead and the chosen stripped of power, that we got no such 'visits' and that portals seemed to be 'closed' between here and the Realms.
Incorrect. Shaaan the Serpent-Queen popped over, and she is not a Chosen. It was in the Wizards Three article in Dragon 219.
Plus we know there has been travel from the Realms to Oerth and back, and Mordenkainen was a regular attendee. I believe both him and Elminster had visited Krynn, as well. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Dec 2013 07:05:17 |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2013 : 17:57:04
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Wooly,
Those folks were here (on Earth) owing to their connection to Elminister (I pulled Dragon 219 down from my shelf to read about the Shaaan incident, she was here ONLY because of El and the others, and would have gone pretty much anywhere she needed to in order to get within 10 feet of them to spring her trap). I'm not saying that only Chosen CAN come to Earth, but rather that only Chosen usually bother to visit the place with any regularity. Sure, one or two other powerful beings poked their head over here to see what all the fuss was about (so to speak), but none of them lingered to impart any sage knowledge to us Earthy types.
My conceit (for play yourself purposes) is that the Chosen (Elminster in particular) come here again and again and share boatloads of lore/stories/etc about Toril (sometimes with VERY specific details) for a reason, not just their own amusement. They are ultimately creatures of Mystra (especially the pre-Midnight version) and tend to act on errands of her devising. So, it seemed logical to me that they'd come here and share such detailed (and sensitive/dangerous) things about their world with gamers for some nebulous greater purpose. Perhaps to provide those who someday unexpectedly found themselves in Toril with the knowledge they might need to survive, and complete some great task only Mystra herself was privy to?
Anyway, I also know that while the Wizard's Three made visits to Krynn and Oerth, the focus of the columns always remained on Toril however, and little lore about the other places (at least in terms of current events) tended to make it through to the reader. What's more, without the purposeful intervention of Elminster, those little wizardly coffee clutches would not have happened at all. They certainly stopped when he was no longer in a position to continue them...
We are, at the end of the day, only arguing the particular logic I've used to undergird my little play yourself experiment, however I developed the idea in the first place because of the many coincidences and little details in the 'cross world traffic' lore that seemed to me to point logically in the direction of such a gaming concept. Do with my musing as you will, but above all have some fun with them! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
Edited by - Kris the Grey on 15 Dec 2013 17:58:53 |
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Earliest canon references to Multi-Spheric Deities
