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Marco Volo
Learned Scribe
France
201 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 16:43:58
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Hi all,
Everything is in the title :
1/ how would you destroy a(n evil) deity altar without receiving a divine punition from the deity for your act ?
2/ How crush something so magic ?
3/ How to make it without a priest/clerc in the PC group ?
Thanks.
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Edited by - Marco Volo on 27 Nov 2013 16:44:35
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6354 Posts |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 18:06:28
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| Hehe. This threads remains me of the start of the Hercules tv series where Hercules gets pissed and tears up one of Hera's temples. Oh how she didn't like that. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 19:04:45
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Hehe. This threads remains me of the start of the Hercules tv series where Hercules gets pissed and tears up one of Hera's temples. Oh how she didn't like that. :)
Well, in the mythology, Hera was not Herc's biggest fan, regardless of what he did.  |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 20:24:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Hehe. This threads remains me of the start of the Hercules tv series where Hercules gets pissed and tears up one of Hera's temples. Oh how she didn't like that. :)
Well, in the mythology, Hera was not Herc's biggest fan, regardless of what he did.
Of course not. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 21:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Marco Volo
Hi all,
Everything is in the title :
1/ how would you destroy a(n evil) deity altar without receiving a divine punition from the deity for your act ?
There are many ways, brute force use a battering ram , topple it over, etc., by spell disintegrate for a wizard, stone to mud by a priest. As already indicated if it is the first one odds are the deity might not even notice. The followers though clearly would be seeking whom did the deed.
quote:
2/ How crush something so magic ?
An altar is not by itself a very magical item, it is made holy and might have a few wards. Now if the altar contains an artifact, the defenses would come from the artifact and also clearly should catch the deitie's attention.quote:
3/ How to make it without a priest/clerc in the PC group ?
Thanks.
If you want to make one, clearly an altar can be raised by followers, perhaps in hope that the deity will send a priest to serve there.
Building one is basic construction, adding tokens of the deity. The holy symbol, the dogma, conduct activities of the dogma. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 22:32:28
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| If you destroy an altar dedicated to the god of destruction.... does he get mad? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 23:04:46
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If you destroy anything, the god of destruction gets more powerful. I imagine that Talos can gain immediate boosts in power by having one of his priests destroy another (along with as much collateral damage and victims as possible in the vicinity), but the tradeoff is that he loses long-term power which might have been invested in even greater destruction.
Defiling an altar or (un)holy object doesn‘t necessarily require that it be smashed into bits. Simply urinating on it, scribbling profane graffiti, spilling the oathblood of a paladin (or bound fiend) onto it, or melting it down into coins donated to (un)worthy causes could all work well enough.
Most deities express their displeasure at such violations by “guiding“ their faithful (with dreams and visions and such) to smite back the offender. Perhaps evil deities instead punish their priests for being incompetent, perhaps neutral deities simply demand that a newer and better (and more costly!) altar is fashioned to replace the original.
I doubt deities would be overly concerned about lost altars unless they lose worshippers as a direct consequence. They might take action, indirect and direct, against repeat offenders or against those who strike grievous/humiliating blows to their faith. Remember, too, that most deities have divine allies, indeed they may be (unwillingly) forced to engage in larger battles when gods like Tyr or Tempus are provoked enough to champion their causes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2013 : 12:44:01
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I see the altar as focus of power of deity, making it important and very sensitive extension of his/her being.
Now, imagine you urinate the leg of god. You won't make it rot and get useless, but deity will be quite pissed. Unless urinating is kind of his portfolio and part of rites that followers use on it.
Now, if you do something in voodoo style, sacrificing some servant of deity to the other god, I imagine it would disrupt the connection, since it involves the death of followers, which brings certain vaning of power and influence in Material Plane.
Well, it's just musing. My favorite is to use some strong magic weapon of opposite alignment and make a good "Hulk Smash!" impression. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2013 : 12:55:33
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Hehe. This threads remains me of the start of the Hercules tv series where Hercules gets pissed and tears up one of Hera's temples. Oh how she didn't like that. :)
She was freaking PISSED! Haha |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2013 : 12:56:17
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If you destroy an altar dedicated to the god of destruction.... does he get mad?
....This seems like the worst kind of riddle. I want to test it, but so fearful..  |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2013 : 13:44:21
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I think this is one of those things that is an 'end of a story-arc' kind of thing, and depends all upon how the DM wants to spin it. There really is no set answer here. If a DM (or author) wants the god to seek retribution, it WILL happen, and if not, it won't.
As for destroying artifacts and relics - thats also on a case-by-case basis. Throwing Istishia's Girdle into a volcano may work, but it won't work if you do it with Kossuth's Codpiece.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Hehe. This threads remains me of the start of the Hercules tv series where Hercules gets pissed and tears up one of Hera's temples. Oh how she didn't like that. :)
Well, in the mythology, Hera was not Herc's biggest fan, regardless of what he did.
Depends...
If you watch the Disney version, Hera was his loving Mom.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2013 : 22:44:43
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Mine ears are offended at such idle invocations of Kossuth‘s Codpiece, blasphemer!
Seriously, though, busting up a temple and defiling an altar are insults which seem more likely to offend a deity‘s followers than the deity itself. Unless it is a particularly significant and irreplaceable loss which seriously wounds the faith. Again, deities are more likely to recruit/inspire/threaten agents among their faithful to visit proper punishment upon those responsible - or they may just let zealots volunteer to perform the task with little prompting.
What better use of the Quest spell than a priest (angered at violations to his order‘s temples) requiring a capable party of adventurers to cleanse the insult as part of their payment for some healing or whatnot? Better still that such a priest is not held accountable for the consequences, yet is well positioned to earn favour from his deity and peers for any measure of success? |
[/Ayrik] |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2013 : 23:48:40
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I think that there might be direct consequences in that an altar might be enspelled to curse or damage defilers.
In addition, one would expect the individuals in question would gain the enmity of that particular region/branch of that deity's worshippers and would then be serially hounded/hunted until they were slain or had to flee.
If you take a look at Ed's "Prayers From the Faithful" sourcebook (one of my all time faves), you can see time and again what some religions have done in pursuit of a spellbook of their faith. I think altar destruction would likely trigger off something similar but in more localised terms. Unless of course you destroyed the altar of the main centre of faith. Then the ramifications would likely be altogether more severe.
-- George Krashos |
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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genebateman
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 00:08:01
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you could take clues from RETURN TO THE TEMPLE OF ELEMENTAL EVIL
each alter had something happen when you destroyed it |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 12:06:08
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Hehe. This threads remains me of the start of the Hercules tv series where Hercules gets pissed and tears up one of Hera's temples. Oh how she didn't like that. :)
Man that takes me back. Loved that show and frankly nobody likes Hera anyway. |
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The Madmage
Acolyte
26 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 15:35:23
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In my most recent campaign, the players had hiked up a tall mountain range whose peaks were perpetually covered in snow. They found a small shrine to Auril and fought (and killed) it's lone priestess. The group was in dire straits as her undead servants (zombies) were still swarming them to obey her last commands. The cleric of the group had rolled sub natural 5s on his turning checks and the group had only a single slashing weapon... wielded by a sorceror. In a panic, the bard took an ice sculpture depicting Auril off the altar and smashed it. I decided to "give them a break" and invoke Auril's wrath by having the act cause an avalanche. They managed to hide inside the shrine just before being submerged in snow and in the process burying the zombies.
They've spent several sessions exploring the underground path leading to the Underdark and struggling for survival as none of them have darkvision and were short on supplies. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2013 : 16:55:48
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Thats an awesome, really cool action scene there.
From Deities and Demigods we learn that gods can sense around their holy places.
quote:
Remote Sensing:
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per
rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This
supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for
up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs (see the deity descriptions for details).
The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salien
t Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by
misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect (as the scrying spell does).
A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense
what’s going on nearby.
Divine Rank Remote Locations
1–5 2
6–10 5
11–15 10
16–20 20
Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location unt
il it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location (for example, after 1 hour has elapsed since someone spoke the deity’s name).
Block Sensing:
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can block the sensing ability of other deities of its rank or lower. This
power extends for a radius of one mile per rank of the deity, or within the same distance around a temple or other locale acred to the deity, or the same distance around a portfolio related event. The deity can block two remote locations at once, p
lus the area within one mile of itself. The blockage lasts 1 hour per divine rank.
Interestingly gods are limited in how many places they sense from, so one could very well be lucky and destroy an altar to a god just when it isn't looking. Such a deity could theoritaclly be oblivious to its destruction untill its attention is recaptured. Obviously they will notice the destruction immediately when trying to remote sense from the object.
To answer Slevyas question: Greater Deities with the destruction domain can use portfolio sense to sense a characters intend to destroy the altar, and would even know a number of weeks equal to their divine rank in advance when you will destroy it.
quote:
Portfolio sense:
Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present.
Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people.
Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have.
Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event.
For example, a demigod of the sea senses all tidal waves that threaten multiple villages, or a small or large towns. The deity knows where the waves are, but not what they look like or which direction they’re traveling. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
Edited by - Bladewind on 30 Nov 2013 17:02:10 |
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2013 : 17:24:38
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The consequences of destroying an altar will vary considerably from one incident to another.
At the most basic, the destruction of an altar will cost favor from some deities and gain favor with others. So long as you gain favor with your own diety, you should come out ahead.
If it becomes known who destroyed the altar, you could have political consequences. Destroying most altars in Waterdeep would get you arrested for sacrelege, for example. You will also likely be hunted by followers of the offended diety. In extreme cases, such as the desecration of a major temple or use of a quest spell to destroy an altar, you might even start a fight between two gods.
If the altar is enchanted or blessed, the consequences become more personal. Gods don't watch most of their altars most of the time, but the blessed ones get more personal attention. They know when a minor altar is destroyed, but they probably don't care enough to observe such a mundane event. Some altars get a LOT of attention. By destroying one of these, as Hercules did, you anger the offended god directly.
In the case of a heavily enchanted altar, the consequences are open-ended, as are the methods. Simple altars with no enchantments can be broken by brute force, but enchanted ones need special means to break the enchantments. This could be anything you want and should be different for each altar. For example, you might ruin one altar to Shar by pouring holy water of Lathander all over it, but the next one might require holy water of Selune. One altar might vulnerable to Mordenkainen's Disjunction, another might have to be crushed with the Maul of the Titans, and another might be vulnerable only to an axe made entirely of felsul wood.
You could also say that a heavily enchanten altar requires someone to break down the enchantments, one at a time, in the proper order. This means researching the enchantments on the altar and bringing a supply of suitable counter spells. If there are no spellcasters in the group, you can have them use the gypsy method - countering each spell with an exotic component of some kind.
What happens when a fighter simply smashes the altar to bits is likewise completely up to the DM. It might just break, or perhaps nothing happens and the altar is untouched, or the altar might explode. Since every altar is different, you should decide in advance for each altar the group might want to destroy. |
Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 16:57:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Hehe. This threads remains me of the start of the Hercules tv series where Hercules gets pissed and tears up one of Hera's temples. Oh how she didn't like that. :)
Man that takes me back. Loved that show and frankly nobody likes Hera anyway.
I enjoyed it too, for me it was junk food tv. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 21:47:34
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You want a god pissed at you, destroy an alter.
You want a god really pissed at you, destroy that alter and rebuild it as an alter to one of their enemies. Like turning a shrine of Shar to a shrine to Selune! |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 22:53:21
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@LordXenophon:
Breaking enchantments is as simple as casting Dispel Magic, any wizard or priest could do it, the only real parameter is the relative difference in caster levels for dispel-vs-enchantment. Once rendered nonmagical, even temporarily, the altar can be subjected to physical methods of damage/destruction.
Of course, altars maintained by high-level priests and sustained by many believers could effectively gain magical Permanency through use of priest spells like Focus. A few may even be divine relics/artifacts with important history and connections to a deity, these are the sorts which seem more likely to require particular exotic or symbolic materials to destroy.
An altar needn‘t be some big boring traditionally monolithic slab of fancy stone. For druids it might be a living tree/treant, for priests of Kossuth it might be a particular pool of lava in the heart of a volcano-temple, etc. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Jergals Spare Scythe
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 09 Dec 2013 : 22:35:50
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1) Reconsecrate the altar for a good (or evil) deity. That effectively "destroys" it for the deity, and he should not be able to sense events around it anymore.
2) A bludgeoning (un)holy weapon forged from adamantine would work wonders here, imo. ;)
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"Seek to bring order to the chaos of life, for in death there is finality and a fixedness of state. Be ready for death for it is at hand and uncompromising."
Excerpt from Jergal's Dogma, Faiths and Pantheons, page 99 |
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Consequences of destroying an altar
