| Author |
 Topic  |
|
SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
|
|
Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Nov 2013 : 21:49:42
|
| Yawn. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
|
 |
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 00:05:43
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Yawn.
You left off the *ka-ching* sound effect, there. 
I'm a couple of books behind on the Drizzt series, right now, but I am really looking forward to a resolution to the dwarf-orc situation. It has been a festering wound for years with me, now. I want Bruenor to feel uptight about it, and to do something about it! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 27 Nov 2013 00:11:48 |
|
|
|
Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 01:08:05
|
| Eh, though Salvatore has been setting this up for years I'd prefer if an Orc kingdom still existed after this. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
|
|
|
Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 01:09:07
|
| Looking forward to seeing where RAS decided to take that conflict. He mentioned moving forward with it at GenCon, but I don't remember him giving any hints about the resolution. Also, it looks like it will be finished in time to be incorporated into whatever FR sourcebooks next will see which is nice in case there are any major changes. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
|
|
|
Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 03:10:34
|
| That cover art is terrible. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
|
|
|
Alruane
Senior Scribe
USA
434 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 03:17:50
|
| Jeez, I am so far behind on these books... |
" I wonder if you are destined to be forgotten. Will your life fade in the shadow of greater beings?"
~Joneleth Irenicus
"Wisdom? My dear boy, wisdom is knowing that you do not know everything. Wisdom is realizing, a wise man ALWAYS has questions. Not answers."
~Alruane |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 04:03:44
|
| If he can take a freaking pit fiend, a lowly orc should be small potatoes. He never faced Obould I in direct battle, the time before. And back then, Obould had the unfair advantage of godly blessings on his side. Let's see a re-risen Bruenor and an Obould^n square off! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Madpig
Learned Scribe
Finland
148 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 10:04:16
|
| As this book is after Sundering it is altogether possible that Bruenors enemy is "original" Obould. That would be interesting also. |
|
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 13:00:59
|
| Man I am so far behind on these books. Will probably get this one once a paperback version comes out. |
|
|
|
SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 18:08:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Madpig
As this book is after Sundering it is altogether possible that Bruenors enemy is "original" Obould. That would be interesting also.
Lol.. I hate when the comic book universe uses major events to resurrect dead foes... I think I'd feel the same if it were done here. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 27 Nov 2013 18:08:41 |
|
|
|
Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2013 : 18:14:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
quote:
Originally posted by Madpig
As this book is after Sundering it is altogether possible that Bruenors enemy is "original" Obould. That would be interesting also.
Lol.. I hate when the comic book universe uses major events to resurrect dead foes... I think I'd feel the same if it were done here.
Well, since Obould is an Exarch I don't see any real issue with him coming down to fight Bruenor. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
|
|
|
Yoss
Learned Scribe
USA
259 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2013 : 02:54:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
That cover art is terrible.
yeah, would hope they don't keep that. |
|
|
|
charger_ss24
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2013 : 19:36:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Yoss
quote:
Originally posted by Entreri3478
That cover art is terrible.
yeah, would hope they don't keep that.
Not only is the art work terrible (along with Night of the Hunter) but they have the wrong character to go with the title! I highly doubt that Drizzt will be the king of anything. |
|
|
|
Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 05:38:29
|
| I'm just glad that more books are on the horizon. They need to crank out one book a month IMO. |
|
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2013 : 12:16:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
I'm just glad that more books are on the horizon. They need to crank out one book a month IMO.
Well I heartily agree with that.
As long as they maintain the quality of these books of course.
Who am I kidding, I would probably end up buying them anyway |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 21:16:23
|
Well, this gives me a small sliver of hope that Obould will come back and make these books worth reading again.
Of course, that sliver of hope is buried under a mountain of certainty that the book is going to be one long love letter to genocide, singing the praises of racism and why it's alright to demonize, generalize, and slaughter people who are different from you, wearing the mask of a return to more classic fantasy before the genre was burdened with such things as moral depth and complexity. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Dec 2013 : 22:45:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Well, this gives me a small sliver of hope that Obould will come back and make these books worth reading again.
Of course, that sliver of hope is buried under a mountain of certainty that the book is going to be one long love letter to genocide, singing the praises of racism and why it's alright to demonize, generalize, and slaughter people who are different from you, wearing the mask of a return to more classic fantasy before the genre was burdened with such things as moral depth and complexity.
Haha! Never mind Obould's ambush of the Citadel Felbarr trade party, or sieges upon Clicking Heels or Shallows in The Thousand Orcs. Never mind Tarathiel and Innovindil, or Sunset and Sunrise. Never mind the dwarves inside Mithral Hall who gave up their lives defending their home against invaders.
This upcoming book will revisit Obould as a baddie simply because the rest of us are all racists. 
Remember: Obould is the one who launched that war, and it was precisely a racist one of genocide, in which he demonized, generalized, and slaughtered people who were different from him. He was the one wearing a mask of moral depth and complexity. Recall that he didn't offer up a truce or peace treaty. He interloped upon Mithral Hall's front porch. It was the goodly forces of the North who extended a hand to him.
All he did was take that hand--and keep the land that he stole . . . and get away with all those people he killed.
That's not particularly morally deep or complex to me.
It's just appeasement, by the other forces of the North.
If Obould had a claim at all against anyone, certainly it wasn't against the lowly towns of Clicking Heels or Shallows. What could those pitiful villages ever do to him? He didn't attack them because they had committed any grievious offense. He attacked them because they were easy targets, and sitting ducks.
If there were to be any sort of moral complexity with the Obould storyline, then it should have arisen out of the ashes from the burnt, dismembered corpse of King Obould I, and from a peace treaty with a hypothetical successor of his on the throne. Make peace with new blood--not with the taker of your own.
That King Obould I lived to die of old age was a travesty. Maybe we'll see that fixed, here. Or, at the very least, maybe we'll get to address that it was, indeed, a travesty in more detail, and finally call a spade a spade. He should not be remembered fondly! He should not be whitewashed by history! Let the Realms forever smell the stench that was Obould, and never forget! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 01:20:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
If he can take a freaking pit fiend, a lowly orc should be small potatoes. He never faced Obould I in direct battle, the time before. And back then, Obould had the unfair advantage of godly blessings on his side. Let's see a re-risen Bruenor and an Obould^n square off!
The problem now is, Obould the original died, and was turned into an exarch by the orc god. So yes he can revisit the prime, but he is much more powerful than before lol.
An exarch would eat Pit fiends for breakfast |
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 01:42:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Well, this gives me a small sliver of hope that Obould will come back and make these books worth reading again.
Of course, that sliver of hope is buried under a mountain of certainty that the book is going to be one long love letter to genocide, singing the praises of racism and why it's alright to demonize, generalize, and slaughter people who are different from you, wearing the mask of a return to more classic fantasy before the genre was burdened with such things as moral depth and complexity.
Haha! Never mind Obould's ambush of the Citadel Felbarr trade party, or sieges upon Clicking Heels or Shallows in The Thousand Orcs. Never mind Tarathiel and Innovindil, or Sunset and Sunrise. Never mind the dwarves inside Mithral Hall who gave up their lives defending their home against invaders.
This upcoming book will revisit Obould as a baddie simply because the rest of us are all racists.
Remember: Obould is the one who launched that war, and it was precisely a racist one of genocide, in which he demonized, generalized, and slaughtered people who were different from him. He was the one wearing a mask of moral depth and complexity. Recall that he didn't offer up a truce or peace treaty. He interloped upon Mithral Hall's front porch. It was the goodly forces of the North who extended a hand to him.
All he did was take that hand--and keep the land that he stole . . . and get away with all those people he killed.
That's not particularly morally deep or complex to me.
It's just appeasement, by the other forces of the North.
If Obould had a claim at all against anyone, certainly it wasn't against the lowly towns of Clicking Heels or Shallows. What could those pitiful villages ever do to him? He didn't attack them because they had committed any grievious offense. He attacked them because they were easy targets, and sitting ducks.
If there were to be any sort of moral complexity with the Obould storyline, then it should have arisen out of the ashes from the burnt, dismembered corpse of King Obould I, and from a peace treaty with a hypothetical successor of his on the throne. Make peace with new blood--not with the taker of your own.
That King Obould I lived to die of old age was a travesty. Maybe we'll see that fixed, here. Or, at the very least, maybe we'll get to address that it was, indeed, a travesty in more detail, and finally call a spade a spade. He should not be remembered fondly! He should not be whitewashed by history! Let the Realms forever smell the stench that was Obould, and never forget!
I take a different view on Obould than you do based on my interpretation of the books. Obould wants to better the lives of his people. Orcs by large and far in Salvatoreland in the tiny frontier of the silver Marches, seem to be given the "kill on sight" treatment. Not surprising given that the Silver Marches are the Frontier lands of Forgotten realms.
I liked the depth Bob Gave the orc whom Pwent had down, but did not kill in a short story. Showing a trickle of honor by letting Pwent live after he later got him down, etc
I liked that Obould after receiving enlightenment wanted better for his people than to sit in the shadows of everyone else's society in the sunlit world like Orcs always do and brought them out in a massive revolution to create a kingdom.
I always enjoy when orcs are not merely fodder to be killed on sight, but become part of the larger picture and have to coexist. Usually, the Orcs have an easier time coexisting than the people used to killing them on sight.
The book Crusade for Example. 1000 orcs join King Azoun's Crusade against the Tuigan Horde to protect the Heartlands, and the first bunch of people to have problems with them, of course, are the 2000 dwarves from Earthfast who also joined Azoun. The clashing between the orc leader Vrakk and The Dwarven King, Ironlord Torg Mac Cae was great to read. Vrakk the orc decided he would fight beside the Dwarves if "Aksoon" ordered it lol. Torg of course stomped his feet like a dwarf and pouted and tried to desert with his army until Azoun shamed him into staying.
Amazingly, the orcs seemed accepted and welcome at the celebration parties at the end of the book. it just fit so well. |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 04:46:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I take a different view on Obould than you do based on my interpretation of the books. Obould wants to better the lives of his people.
Post-enlightenment Obould does, sure.
But not pre-. Beforehand, he just wanted to conquer, and especially to lash out at Citadel Felbarr for taking the citadel back away from him when he was down.
quote:
Orcs by large and far in Salvatoreland in the tiny frontier of the silver Marches, seem to be given the "kill on sight" treatment. Not surprising given that the Silver Marches are the Frontier lands of Forgotten realms.
Aye, historically, orcs have been given this treatment in most literature. They've been easy fodder for heroes. That's unfortunate, because it's oversimplistic, and it perpetuates racism in fiction.
Regardless, orcs have by and large lived up (or, rather, down) to their hype. They have been the monsters that dwarves love to slay. Just look at Obould in The Thousand Orcs.
On the one hand, we can agree that it's unseemly that many authors have been complicit in this longstanding bit of literary racism. But on the other hand, we should likewise acknowledge that the race of orcs, in general, have indeed been every bit as bad as they were made out to be.
quote:
I liked the depth Bob Gave the orc whom Pwent had down, but did not kill in a short story. Showing a trickle of honor by letting Pwent live after he later got him down, etc
Yep, "Bones and Stones" was a great read.
But G'nurk came across as some sort of highly educated modern military officer, like someone out of a real world military academy or something. His level of refinement and manner of speech hardly seemed consistent with those of orcs, as we know them. Why would he have ever worked for a tyrant like Obould, and allowed his daughter to do so likewise, and trained troops for him, and gone to war for him, if he were that civilized? It doesn't fit.
It was fantastic to see them both show mercy, though. The worst sinners in this war are the kings, and not the foot soldiers.
quote:
I liked that Obould after receiving enlightenment wanted better for his people than to sit in the shadows of everyone else's society in the sunlit world like Orcs always do and brought them out in a massive revolution to create a kingdom.
But the problem is that he had already brought them out in a massive campaign of death, destruction, and conquest before that enlightenment. So even when enlightenment and his new misssion came, he already had a huge debt to repay.
Where is that repayment???
Obould skated by on his previous wrongs, because it was more politically correct to focus on his perceived recent rights.
But I don't buy the "What Have You Done for Me Lately?" line. I don't go for it. I don't abide by it.
Let some other enlightened soul who does not have the blood on his hands that Obould I has enjoy peace.
quote:
I always enjoy when orcs are not merely fodder to be killed on sight, but become part of the larger picture and have to coexist. Usually, the Orcs have an easier time coexisting than the people used to killing them on sight.
It's great if the orc concerned does not clearly have blood on his hands. I can't see past that color red.
quote:
The book Crusade for Example. 1000 orcs join King Azoun's Crusade against the Tuigan Horde to protect the Heartlands, and the first bunch of people to have problems with them, of course, are the 2000 dwarves from Earthfast who also joined Azoun. The clashing between the orc leader Vrakk and The Dwarven King, Ironlord Torg Mac Cae was great to read. Vrakk the orc decided he would fight beside the Dwarves if "Aksoon" ordered it lol. Torg of course stomped his feet like a dwarf and pouted and tried to desert with his army until Azoun shamed him into staying.
Amazingly, the orcs seemed accepted and welcome at the celebration parties at the end of the book. it just fit so well.
Is this 3E retcon of orc nature? Or is it just a presentation of one exceptional orc tribe?
RAS takes a lot of flak for inconsistently portraying tidbits of Realmslore over time. But this sounds like a fundamental shift in an entire species/race. Have we ever been given a feasible explanation for this?
Either way, as far as I am concerned, Obould sinned egregiously, so Obould should have been punished severely. Let his punishment serve as an example to the rest of his orcs, and then move forward from that point. That would be a fitting foundation for civilization, law, and order. Appeasement and disregard for past wrongs are not. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 05:29:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
I always enjoy when orcs are not merely fodder to be killed on sight, but become part of the larger picture and have to coexist. Usually, the Orcs have an easier time coexisting than the people used to killing them on sight.
It's great if the orc concerned does not clearly have blood on his hands. I can't see past that color red.
I would disagree with Firestorm, here. While humans are rarely a great example of cooperative types, they do have a much better history of cooperating for the betterment of all. But, as BEAST said, orcs have a darker reputation, and a history that meets -- if not exceeds -- that reputation.
I've got no issue with further development of a race, or anything like that. I just have an issue with thousands of years of orc hordes being ignored in favor of a few exceptions to the norm.
It's like arguing that drow aren't really that bad, because Liriel and Qilue are good folks.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
The book Crusade for Example. 1000 orcs join King Azoun's Crusade against the Tuigan Horde to protect the Heartlands, and the first bunch of people to have problems with them, of course, are the 2000 dwarves from Earthfast who also joined Azoun. The clashing between the orc leader Vrakk and The Dwarven King, Ironlord Torg Mac Cae was great to read. Vrakk the orc decided he would fight beside the Dwarves if "Aksoon" ordered it lol. Torg of course stomped his feet like a dwarf and pouted and tried to desert with his army until Azoun shamed him into staying.
Amazingly, the orcs seemed accepted and welcome at the celebration parties at the end of the book. it just fit so well.
Is this 3E retcon of orc nature? Or is it just a presentation of one exceptional orc tribe?
It's 2E, actually. The orcs in question served the Zhents. And they were more civilized than the tribal orcs seen in the North, because of their service. Further, they were loyal to the Zhents but were pretty much crapped upon in response -- so these orcs had been living amongst humans, and just wanted to be left alone.
Also, I'll note that even among enemies, fighting alongside someone tends to breed a sense of camaraderie that otherwise may have never developed.
While it does show that orcs aren't uniformly bloodthirsty and savage, it is still a relative handful compared to thousands of years and tens of thousands of orcs who rightfully earned that savage and bloodthirsty reputation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2013 : 10:22:33
|
You know what I'm tired of? I'm tired of people telling me that orcs are evil because Gary Gygax decided they would be back in the seventies and every writer since is bound by sacred law to obey that decree. I'm tired of people telling me that because racism is something that was built into the fantasy genre decades before I was born, that I shouldn't expect modern writers to move passed it. That I should shut up, smile, nod, and go along with the race war.
From the moment someone sat down and put in the first monster manual the words “always chaotic evil” next to a sentient, mortal, non magical race, the developers were sending the message, whether they realized it or not, that good and evil are drawn along racial lines. That there are people who aren’t like us, are different, who can’t change, and should be sought out and killed, and can be killed with impunity and without thought to the moral consequences of doing so, because there are no moral consequences for doing so.
And I’m the bad guy because I expect modern writers in the twenty first century- writers who I know are well meaning, intelligent, forward minded, progressive individuals- to maybe take another look at this? Maybe inject some moral complexity into the equation? Maybe try sending the message that people aren’t simple, that a whole race or species can’t be summed up with three words describing their alignment? That diplomacy and coexistence might be a more favorable solution to these issues than war eternal? I’m the bad guy for realizing that the school yard logic of “HE STARTED IT!” isn’t justification for throwing away countless more lives in a potentially hopeless war?
I’m also tired of the notion of the singular exception. What sickens me most about Drizzt is what he represents. He doesn’t represent the idea of an evil being rising above and finding his better nature. He symbolizes the idea that for a minority to be a decent, progressive, productive member of society they have to abandon their people and cultural identity and adopt what the mainstream considers socially acceptable. And after all that, then he can be considered ‘one of the good ones’. He can be considered a credit to his race.
It’s not just orcs with me. The very fact that orcs, goblins, drow, and any other race that gets the always whatever evil next to them in the monster manual, the very fact that they’re going to be labeled as monsters at all, the fact that they exist solely as cannon fodder for pc’s, this whole concept which seems inherently woven in to the very fabric of the fantasy genre offends me. It offends me morally due to the previous implications it suggests, and it offends me intellectually because it suggests to me that the developers and the writers don’t think I as a reader or a gamer am capable of processing and dealing with more complex conflict than “these are the heroes(notice how they’re all attractive and have strong, European features), and these are the villains(notice how they’re all ugly and brutish).”
This is the kind of thought that got the ending to the film “I Am Legend” changed from a man realizing the creatures he’s been hunting are intelligent, thinking beings with relationships and a society of their own, to a man blowing up monsters, because apparently the idea of making peace with our enemies- especially ones who are different than us- is somehow more controversial than mass murder.
And no one wants it changed because no one wants anything to change in fantasy. They like their status quo just the way it is. It’s always been this way, so it’s always gonna be this way, and I’m just gonna be stuck out in the cold singing my same old sad song.
It's something that strikes a personal cord with me because so many of my relatives are bigots, themselves. Especially my brother-in-law. Fairly intelligent, well educated man, but a horrible racist. Honestly believes that black people are genetically, biologically, mentally incapable of having a stable society on their own, that they're incapable of being good, decent people on the large scale and that the people who are are exceptions to the rule. So when I see this same mentality made into a game mechanic in a game that I happen to enjoy, it makes me physically ill.
And BEAST, on a note more directly related to your post, I’ve never claimed that Obould was anything other than a villain. A noble villain, perhaps, but a villain none the less. I don’t think of him as the hero, and I don’t excuse any of the horrible things he’s done. Rather, it is because of those things that I find him to be a fascinating character, and in my humble opinion, the most interesting and well developed character Bob’s ever written for.
|
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 00:30:05
|
When you consider the fact that there's heros who'd butcher the big bad's mooks as they scream for mercy...or that the hero would dismember one of the big bad's mooks (while he/she's alive) as tribute to a demon patron...it's not hard to look at Obould as a hero. Though I'm not referring to this character in my aforementioned statement, I'd consider Sandor Clegane and Jaime Lannister to be heros. Jaime a bit moreso, for killing the Mad King. It sounded to me like the old Targ needed killing.
We both agree that Obould is one of the most interesting characters Bob has created. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 02:26:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
You know what I'm tired of? I'm tired of people telling me that orcs are evil because Gary Gygax decided they would be back in the seventies and every writer since is bound by sacred law to obey that decree. I'm tired of people telling me that because racism is something that was built into the fantasy genre decades before I was born, that I shouldn't expect modern writers to move passed it. That I should shut up, smile, nod, and go along with the race war.
From the moment someone sat down and put in the first monster manual the words “always chaotic evil” next to a sentient, mortal, non magical race, the developers were sending the message, whether they realized it or not, that good and evil are drawn along racial lines. That there are people who aren’t like us, are different, who can’t change, and should be sought out and killed, and can be killed with impunity and without thought to the moral consequences of doing so, because there are no moral consequences for doing so.
And I’m the bad guy because I expect modern writers in the twenty first century- writers who I know are well meaning, intelligent, forward minded, progressive individuals- to maybe take another look at this? Maybe inject some moral complexity into the equation? Maybe try sending the message that people aren’t simple, that a whole race or species can’t be summed up with three words describing their alignment? That diplomacy and coexistence might be a more favorable solution to these issues than war eternal? I’m the bad guy for realizing that the school yard logic of “HE STARTED IT!” isn’t justification for throwing away countless more lives in a potentially hopeless war?
Well, I wouldn't say that it makes you a bad guy. But I would say that it's kind of a fruitless endeavour to expect writers and game designers to completely disregard decades worth of canon, as if they had been wrong all along. Perhaps an evolution in the community of orcs is called for, but not a total reboot of the canon.
Here's an analogy, to help illustrate how I feel about all of this. I have never been able to get into the gaming side of D&D, even after all these years. I love RAS's books, and quite a few of the reference sourcebooks, just for reading purposes. But the RPG stuff just seems like too much work for fun, to me. If I want fun, I start up a hack-&-slash video game and kick butt for a while, because that's far easier, and I can do it alone. But I have never condemned D&D for being not what I wanted. It is what it is.
Plenty of people have decried various changes in the D&D rulesets, and the Spellplague, the "points of light" concept, and the disproportional popularity of one goodly drow ranger, and probably there will be people who will pooh-pooh the Sundering, before it is through. But they're all still canon in this world, just the same.
You seem to think that having the dwarves fight it out with the orcs to the very bitter end, even though it would mean the elimination of both races, is nihilistic and depressingly empty. Ok, I can see that.
But can't you see that depicting the proud dwarves--with their widely known insistence upon justice, and fairness, and honor, no matter the cost--as just throwing their hands up in the air and accepting this orc interloper and murderer completely flies in the face of their very core nature as it has always been described to us, and therefore, seems just as utterly nihilistic and empty? It just feels like a total betrayal of fundamental dwarven values to appease one's virtual rapist like that.
Perhaps that can somehow be explained in a way that I might accept, some day. But I haven't seen such an explanation, yet. It's still sticking in my craw, to this day.
quote:
I’m also tired of the notion of the singular exception. What sickens me most about Drizzt is what he represents. He doesn’t represent the idea of an evil being rising above and finding his better nature. He symbolizes the idea that for a minority to be a decent, progressive, productive member of society they have to abandon their people and cultural identity and adopt what the mainstream considers socially acceptable. And after all that, then he can be considered ‘one of the good ones’. He can be considered a credit to his race.
Bob has repeatedly questioned whether the exceptional individuals who get the spotlight are the only good representatives of their peoples, and whether any given race is ever all bad. He asked this of the drow in Homeland, of gnolls in Sojourn, and of goblins in "Dark Mirror".
Regardless of where any of us falls on that issue, the fact is that a society or cultural environment can be extremely toxic and detrimental to one's emotional well-being. Otherwise good people can be turned bad. At some point, questioning whether they were ever good kinda becomes mute, if they are destined to be trapped in the same pit as the innately evil ones.
Drama arises when the isolated few dare to challenge this status quo. Even if we believe that there probably are many other otherwise goodly folks who have become trapped in such a society (e.g., Zaknafein), ultimately it is the ones who break free of the trap who cease to be mere parts of the setting, and actually become the heroes.
Drizzt didn't have to abandon his people and cultural identity in order to be decent or progressive. He was already those things, even when he was neck deep in spiders.
But he did have to leave his birth culture behind in order to move forward in life, and to find others that were more akin to his personal outlook. He couldn't find that, there, so he did have to look elsewhere. He was no Don Quixote hellbent on tilting at windmills where he was absolutely outnumbered and unwelcome.
One boy cannot change an entire culture. He cannot effect the evolution of said culture, all by himself. So Drizzt had to leave.
But can he effect that sort of evolution now, with others of his kind supporting him? Maybe he can. Anti-Drizzt-ites don't want to give Drizzt any deep consideration. But maybe he could take point in an entire cultural evolution of the drow (at least in Menzo).
If an inner city youth wants to get ahead in school and maybe go to college, is he likely to be successful while staying in a gang, or continuing to push drugs out in the parking lot at the neighborhood convenience store, or servicing Johns on the street corner? Probably not. Regardless of how we might view a given race or ethnicity, that youth is still probably going to have to distance himself from his environment/culture/whatever in order to move ahead like he wants. Ideally, he will be able to find others who are just like him, and not have to be transplanted into a completely alien environment in order to get ahead. But he is still going to have to embrace a hell of a lot of change, if he's ever going to achieve his goals.
If a Muslim woman born in a fundamentalist Middle Eastern country wants to become educated and liberated, are her chances very high if she remains in her homeland? Aren't they a lot higher if she can somehow get out of Dodge and move to the West?
Culture shapes the wills and the behaviors of the masses, for better or worse. It is the rare individual who bucks that, and goes another way. And that kind of rare individual makes for the best stories.
quote:
It’s not just orcs with me. The very fact that orcs, goblins, drow, and any other race that gets the always whatever evil next to them in the monster manual, the very fact that they’re going to be labeled as monsters at all, the fact that they exist solely as cannon fodder for pc’s, this whole concept which seems inherently woven in to the very fabric of the fantasy genre offends me. It offends me morally due to the previous implications it suggests, and it offends me intellectually because it suggests to me that the developers and the writers don’t think I as a reader or a gamer am capable of processing and dealing with more complex conflict than “these are the heroes(notice how they’re all attractive and have strong, European features), and these are the villains(notice how they’re all ugly and brutish).”
Classical fantasy stereotypes are certainly childishly, cartoonishly oversimplistic. But I don't think that it was ever done because of an intentional insult to readers' intelligence. I believe that things were done that way for ease to the writers. Throw an enemy at the hero whose utter annihilation the reader can gleefully revel in, instead of going to the trouble to make that enemy hard to kill off.
Personally, I'm not outraged by that, but rather just occasionally disappointed.
At other times (I mentioned that I blow off steam via hack-&-slash PC games, right?), I gleefully revel in the mayhem, exactly as I was intended to do. I know it's silly and overly black-and-white, and I don't care.
If that's in any way OK in a hack-&-slash video game, then why not in an RPG? Why not in an RPG-based novel? I don't think there's anything wrong with fiction giving its readers that sort of easy antagonist/conflict, to a degree. It's escapist entertainment, and it works for a lot of people.
But is it, at times, lazy writing? Yep.
Are a lot of writers capable of giving us better than that? Yep.
The extent to which we expect them to do so varies from reader to reader.
And that is made all the more complicated when the fiction is part of a shared world like the Realms. Do we call upon all writers to rise above easy escapist storytelling? Do we demand that they all evolve into more nuanced, abstract, gray tales? Do we insist that they all give us what the more highbrow amongst us believe is better for us, even if others amongst us still want what they always used to give us, before?
What do we do with all of the well-established backstory on "evil races", then? Do we proudly throw continuity and canon out the window, in the name of forcing fantasy literature to become progressive and avante garde?
All I know is that this particular orc did real bad, and he should've paid dearly for it, and it ticks me off royally that he never did!
quote:
"Baby did a bad, bad thing, y'all
"Baby did a bad, bad thing!" --Chris Isaak
quote:
This is the kind of thought that got the ending to the film “I Am Legend” changed from a man realizing the creatures he’s been hunting are intelligent, thinking beings with relationships and a society of their own, to a man blowing up monsters, because apparently the idea of making peace with our enemies- especially ones who are different than us- is somehow more controversial than mass murder.
I've never watched any version of that film, or documentary clips about them, so I don't know if alterations to the story were made because, indeed, the directors thought the story's concepts were too controversial--or because the directors didn't think they could tell the more complex tale in the time allotted, so they went the easier route and just made the baddies into mere fodder.
quote:
And no one wants it changed because no one wants anything to change in fantasy. They like their status quo just the way it is. It’s always been this way, so it’s always gonna be this way, and I’m just gonna be stuck out in the cold singing my same old sad song.
That's not true. At a very young age, I asked people, "How does anybody know that the pointy-eared, green-skinned critters in the story are all evil? How do we know that there aren't at least a few good ones, who just got forced to go along with the others? What if the good guy army got in such a rush to go to war that they killed those good goblins, too? Shouldn't they have slowed down, or been more careful?"
"What do orcs do when they go home after a long day of fighting? I mean, there's thousands of them, so obviously they have to have families and some sort of family values. Do they entertain each other telling stories? Do they play dolly with their little girls? Do they play catch? Do they sing campfire songs? Do they work together making big meals in the kitchen? Do little orcs show their parents their homework, and get rewards for good grades?"
These kinds of questions do not make action movies fun to watch for one's eight-year-old peers, nor do they make bedtime reading easy for one's parents.
I simply don't want any evolution in our perception or handling of the would-be "evil races" to be dumped on us too abruptly, or without adequate explanation and context. We shouldn't let our desire for "progress" lead us to too rashly and irreverently ignore the past.
IOW, don't just ram it in!
I think any evolution of the orcs, et al, in fantasy literature would be accepted far more profoundly if it were sufficiently explained, rather than all-too-convenient, cutesy stories revealing that they were goodly fellows all along, and everything that has been written about them before was all a lie. That sort of "It was all just a dream" undoing of a tale in its final stage does not tend to sit well with most folks.
quote:
So when I see this same mentality made into a game mechanic in a game that I happen to enjoy, it makes me physically ill.
That's understandable.
But it's also an undeniable fact that that is what happened.
And no matter how much any of us might want progress within the genre, and within the Realms, all of us need to bring that about in such a manner that respectfully acknowledges that fact.
It happened. Racism was sewn into classical medieval fantasy.
Now, what to do about it? How do we bring about a change in all of that, while still admitting that this world is full of artificially, unrealistically evil races?
And however we resolve that, what is the best way to deal with Obould I? Regardless of how we feel about orcs in general, what should be done with this particular orc, who ordered the death of thousands of innocents, and stole land from the dwarves of Mithral Hall, and indulged the Chieftain Grguch, and only sided with the other people of the North when Grguch turned on him? How do we see both that adequate respect is shown to the goodly souls of orckind, and that justice is done with respect to this one rotten orc?
quote:
And BEAST, on a note more directly related to your post, I’ve never claimed that Obould was anything other than a villain. A noble villain, perhaps, but a villain none the less. I don’t think of him as the hero, and I don’t excuse any of the horrible things he’s done. Rather, it is because of those things that I find him to be a fascinating character, and in my humble opinion, the most interesting and well developed character Bob’s ever written for.
OK.
I've never been all thar fascinated by him, though. I heard about an orc king who might be setting the stage for peace long before I ever read "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy", and I was intrigued by the idea of him. But once I started reading about Obould's exploits in that trilogy, I could never see him as a peacemaker. All I could see was red.
Peace is a wonderful notion, but not at the expense of justice. Terminate him, first, and then let's talk peace.
If killing Obould I off poses such a threat to the idea of peace, if peace hinges entirely upon that one particular orc ruling over them all, then doesn't that seriously undermine the whole notion that orcs can be good guys, too? If no one else could step up to the fill the void left by his absence, then doesn't that basically confirm all of that existing lore that tells us that orcs are all just a bunch of criminal thugs and hooligans?
I will say, that Bob's and WOTC's decision to go the route of appeasement with Obould and Many-Arrows has been very successful at provoking a strong emotional response out of me (no...really?!). I didn't just consume those stories and merely move on to the next ones. I read them and then went, "Aw, Hell no!"
If a story makes you think, and it makes you feel, then it's a resounding success, as a piece of fiction. It isn't necessarily the best piece of a shared world--that much still has yet to be seen, since the legacy of Obould I is still very much unresolved and up in the air. But it definitely makes for good storytelling! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 04 Dec 2013 02:42:56 |
|
|
|
Demzer
Senior Scribe
873 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 10:06:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
This is the kind of thought that got the ending to the film “I Am Legend” changed from a man realizing the creatures he’s been hunting are intelligent, thinking beings with relationships and a society of their own, to a man blowing up monsters, because apparently the idea of making peace with our enemies- especially ones who are different than us- is somehow more controversial than mass murder.
Uh? Are you talking abouth Matheson's book turned into the movie with Will Smith?
In Matheson's book nobody makes peace: the living vampires are every bit as murderous as Neville, worst even, since he fought for his own survival, while they go out in "raiding parties" to slaughter the dead vampires. Furthermore they don't say to him "ah you had your reasons, sorry, cya at Thanksgiving!", they just wanted to execute him for his crimes (mass murder) and instead Ruth gives him pills with which he can suicide. The world is turned into a battlefield between adapted living vampires and dead vampires and the last human commits suicide to escape a violent execution ... it's hard to get more nihilistic than that, nobody is making peace, for all we know the living vampires may bite more than they can chew 3 days after Neville's death and get slaughtered by the dead ones like any good old zombie-pocalypse.
The movie just turns this dystopia around and makes it so Will Smith finds a "cure" and the girl and the child get it to a safe heaven thanks to his sacrifice in holding back the vampires. You can blame hollywood for turning a bad ending into an happy ending, but you can't blame them for betraying philosophical conclusions that aren't even in the book.
Sorry for the off-topic, now everyone can go back debating green skin rights in the only place of Faerun that mainstream fans think represents all of Faerun while ignoring Thay, Thesk, Airspur (well, up to 3e) and Purskul. |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 17:37:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Sorry for the off-topic, now everyone can go back debating green skin rights in the only place of Faerun that mainstream fans think represents all of Faerun while ignoring Thay, Thesk, Airspur (well, up to 3e) and Purskul.
OK, first off, what are you doing bringing facts into this?!
And second, those other places don't count, and you know it!
|
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
DragonReader
Senior Scribe
USA
371 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2013 : 21:43:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
You know what I'm tired of? I'm tired of people telling me that orcs are evil because Gary Gygax decided they would be back in the seventies and every writer since is bound by sacred law to obey that decree.
Perhaps you would be interested in Stan Nicholls Orcs series:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orcs:_First_Blood
I have not read it but it sounds interesting. The series is described as being about the conflict between humns and orcs told from the point of view of the orcs. From reading the reviews, I think that the orcs here are the "good guys," although not necessarily always good. But again I haven't read it so I don't know for sure.
Another book (which again I haven't read) that features a normally "evil" race as the protagonists is "The Goblin Corps" by Ari Marmell.
I do agree that in fantasy fiction in general it would be interesting to see some books that feature orcs and such as the "good guys" and conversly the usual good guy races as "bad guys" (if for no other reason than to shake things up and avoid re-hashing old plots). But that doesn't mean every series needs to get rid of the concept of orcs as the bad guys. And in a long standing series like FR there is no reason to go back and change history.
That said, I always find it more interesting if the motivations of the "bad guys" are laid out. Just because a particular group is on the wrong side of a war or issue does not meant they are evil. So it may be that in some cases the orcs are bad guys but not because they are evil (they may have a reason that seems perfectly reasonable or "right" to them). Not to mention that some orcs, elves, etc may be good and some may be bad (or is that too much reality for fiction  ).
Again not saying any of this applies to FR, but just my rambling thoughts on fantasy lit in general. |
Edited by - DragonReader on 04 Dec 2013 21:56:07 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 00:17:52
|
I personally don't have an issue with the idea of orcs -- or other evil races -- adopting a more neutral or even goodly mindset... So long as there is a good reason for it.
I've said before that I can see orcs settling down and forming a more peaceful society -- but that it would have to be an isolated society. We've seen, in the Realms, what orcs do to their neighbors and anyone else who gets in their way. If you remove all other locals, then orcs becoming more civilized would be a quite reasonable expectation.
That's part of why I have a hard time with the issue of the Kingdom of Many Arrows. It's a nation forged in blood, with land seized from their neighbors, led by the representative of a deity of strength and conquest... And then, ringed by potential enemies, the previously highly aggressive and savage peoples of this nation suddenly go against their history and the dictates of their deity to become farmers and traders?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 01:14:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's part of why I have a hard time with the issue of the Kingdom of Many Arrows. It's a nation forged in blood, with land seized from their neighbors, led by the representative of a deity of strength and conquest... And then, ringed by potential enemies, the previously highly aggressive and savage peoples of this nation suddenly go against their history and the dictates of their deity to become farmers and traders?
Isn't that how some nations were created in the real world? |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2013 : 03:27:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's part of why I have a hard time with the issue of the Kingdom of Many Arrows. It's a nation forged in blood, with land seized from their neighbors, led by the representative of a deity of strength and conquest... And then, ringed by potential enemies, the previously highly aggressive and savage peoples of this nation suddenly go against their history and the dictates of their deity to become farmers and traders?
Isn't that how some nations were created in the real world?
Seizing land by force isn't the issue. Orcs have thousands of years of history of unprovoked attacks and unrestricted warfare on anyone and everyone. For them to launch yet another such attack, to surround themselves with enemies, and then put aside their history to become farmers -- that's the part that doesn't make sense. They created enemies, surrounded themselves with those same enemies, and did it all for the purpose of embracing the same soft lifestyle that their own gods were against. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Rise of the King.. more Drizzt
