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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2018 :  14:47:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm, so I skipped forward to the NPC section and its states "Attempts to magically regenerate his severed limb failed, forcing him to craft an artificial arm and hand for himself." So, for some reason, magical regeneration is failing on him, and he apparently doesn't know why. I would venture to guess that he's also afraid to try his clones. He's taking to working through simulacrums though, which is probably something he did previously, but is another type of "clone" to a lesser degree. I do like the idea that he stole the arm from Trobriand and adapted it for use for himself (his "crafting" was making it magically work with himself, which in itself may be a new thing for Manshoon to have learned, possibly never having performed graft work before). One of the the things we have to remember is that just because you are an archmage doesn't mean you know how to make every kind of magical item or cast every kind of spell. This is what makes different archmages different from others. Some may focus on item creation. Others may focus on spellcraft. Even within item creation some may focus on the martial arts (weapons, armor, constructs) while others may focus more on spell arts (wands, staves, rods) and others may be more generic. Within spellcraft some may focus on a school of magic, a type of energy, the manipulation of energy into wards or triggered effects, etc.... Manshoon is indeed powerful, but in the end he's a relatively young archmage (stress relatively, he was born in 1229, so he's around 260 years old, but lord only knows how long THIS Manshoon was held captive in Undermountain.... 80 years? 120 years? He may have literally spent half his life as a captive now. Also, just what did Halaster subject him too? Is his mind whole and hale (for that matter, there's also the possibility that the "awakening" may have made some Manshoon clones somewhat insane?).


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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dazzlerdal
Great Reader

United Kingdom
4207 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2018 :  16:59:59  Show Profile Send dazzlerdal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
We think he was born 1229 DR, it is entirely possible manshoon is like khelben in that he creates personalities

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 21 Nov 2018 :  22:08:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
but we have no reason to seriously doubt the dates given in GHotR unless we want to glorify Manshoon, which personally I see no reason to do. I see him as a rising star at one point who has somewhat burnt out. One of the clones may turn into something again, but not at present so much. I see him now as a "behind the scenes" archmage similar to how Zhengyi or Velsharoon were after they left Thay. They lurked for some time, gathered their strength, studied things, and then one day they set a major plan in motion. We didn't hear from either until Zhengyi declared himself the Witch-King or Velsharoon was gathering everything necessary to attain divinity.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe

Australia
217 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2018 :  02:21:24  Show Profile Send JohnLynch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think those were throwaway references.

Cloak & Dagger says Manshoon got sanctuary with Halaster, but the new Waterdeep book ignores that lore and instead says that Manny was down there without leave, Halaster caught him, they fought, Halaster won, imprisoned Manshoon and cut off his arm, and Manshoon somehow escaped after that. And Manshoon plots to get revenge on Hally for all that.

Not only does this ignore prior lore -- and in fact retcons it -- it really doesn't make sense.

Why would Halaster imprison Manshoon instead of slaying him? Why cut off his arm? If Manshoon was defeated and imprisoned with two arms, how did he escape with one? (Seriously, think on this one: When they encountered each other, Manshoon was hale and whole, and assumedly packing a full complement of spells. He was defeated, maimed, and somehow escaped. So he escaped from a much more powerful wizard, without having a full complement of spells, if any at all, and with his ability to cast any remaining spells very seriously hampered)

And why would a wizard go for a non-magical, mechanical prosthetic, instead of some sort of magical one?

A very simple explanation for this: Both events are 100% true and accurate.

Yes, Manshoon did in fact seek sanctuary with Halaster, and received it via payment of something big (probably stasis clone or perhaps some other spell). However Manshoon required that Halaster give sanctuary to no other Manshoon clone as part of his payment.

Then when a second Manshoon came along seeking sanctuary, Halaster as true to his word. He didn't give the second Manshoon sanctuary. He instead fought and defeated Manshoon and imprisoned him. This kept the second Manshoon safe (which was one of the primary goals of the second Manshoon), but he wasn't being given sanctuary. He was imprisoned.

During the second Manshoon's imprisonment he was tortured (probably not even by Halaster), and then Halaster (or perhaps the first Manshoon who had gained sanctuary) arranged for the second one to be given the opportunity to escape.

The second Manshoon, now missing one arm, was in a bit of a bother and so he quickly got together a second arm (the Spellplague had wreaked havoc with magic and this Manshoon had been imprisoned the entire time so he wasn't too sure what the current state of magic even was so when he came across a mechanical arm he was like "eh. Might as well. Better safe than sorry"). He's now working to set himself up and he simply hasn't gotten around to fixing his arm.

One Arm Manshoon also isn't 100% sure clones created before the Spellplague still work. He suspects they do, but that's a pretty big gamble. Especially when he doesn't understand why his arm won't grow back.

quote:
Originally posted by Gareth

FRCG (4th Edition) mentions that the clone that was with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague.

Ecology of the Sharn (Dragon 373)
-"In the depths of the Sargauth, below Halaster’s Halls, lives a mysterious creature known as the Drowned Queen, an aboleth like being thought to have unusual magical abilities akin to those of the sharns. It is whispered that the Drowned Queen was responsible for the death of a Manshoon clone who sought to rule the Underhalls in the years following the Mad Mage’s demise."
Doesn't say which Manshoon clone she defeated. There could still be one living in Halaster's sanctuary.

There were lots of Manshoon clones. Who knows how many ventured into Undermountain. Makes sense if one had the idea that others would have also had the same idea.

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2018 :  13:05:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Nice story (i.e. the multiple Manshoons in Undermountain). I do still like the idea that Halaster did something to at least one of the Manshoon's that prevents his magical healing, regeneration, AND growth of a new body from his flesh (i.e. making a new clone). He may have placed this spell on him AFTER amputating his arm. This may have been done as a spell that maybe Halaster developed to basically rip the ties of an individual to any other clones they may have (after all, the first act of some of the Manshoon clones may have been to make new stasis clones). It would also aid keeping him imprisoned, as it would hinder spellcasting to a degree. Basically, the effect may to some degree separate "body" and "soul" in ways that we from our own world can't fathom, and this separation prevents magical healing, etc... (because for all we know, magical healing uses the natural power of one's soul... which may be one "unwritten" reason why constructs can't heal and must be repaired?).

BTW, we know the story from Cloak and Dagger as to what happened with Manshoon's clones. However, what if there were more to it. Khelben was a bit of a dick. In earlier editions, there was NOTHING to prevent another person who got ahold of "a big bit of flesh" from making a clone of you. Manshoon made all of his stasis clones, and he setup all these contingencies to have them go off in a certain order, etc... But what if Khelben grew his OWN clone of Manshoon and basically setup similar contingent effects that would "make it activate". Basically it could have been Khelben's working of TRIGGERING mechanisms that caused HIS clone of Manshoon and MANSHOON'S clone of Manshoon to awaken at the same time, and this breakdown then had a cascade effect awakening all the other stasis clones.

Halaster was 100% prick with a side of insane experimenter thrown in. Halaster amputated THIS Manshoon clone's arm and then imprisoned him (how long was the imprisonment? A year or two? Multiple decades?). Our first thoughts are that Halaster chopped off the arm because he wanted to cripple his prisoner. However, WHAT IF his intent was to get enough material to make multiple Manshoon clones? WHAT IF his experiment with a new spell on the Manshoon with the arm with its arm chopped off was to SEE if he could activate a new clone while THAT Manshoon was still alive? For all we know, the "arm off" Manshoon doesn't even KNOW that his cut off arm was used to make multiple extra Manshoons (if I had to guess, an arm might be enough material to make maybe 10 to 20 clones?). Manshoon being a powerful archmage, he'd be a great resource for Halaster, who might possibly use these clones to help him anchor the wards of Undermountain, so that he himself could be free. Especially after the issues created by Halaster's Highharvestide just a year (months?) after Manshoon's cloning fiasco, he may have wanted to put SOMETHING in place should he ever be removed from the Underhalls so as not to put THE WEAVE in danger (I say the weave, because I don't think he would care about the PEOPLE being in danger... his WEAVE being in danger though... unforgivable). Therefore, there may be Manshoon clones all throughout undermountain. These clones may very well have their spellcasting abilities intact, but maybe they have their memories modified/overwritten. Maybe they just know they need to protect certain "things" or "areas", and they help Halaster stabilize Undermountain. They may not even KNOW they are Manshoon. These clones may also be created with a different type of clone spell that's basically an advanced kind of simulacrum, in that they themselves cannot be used to make more clones. Maybe they can't even heal except via magic. In essence, they may be closer to what Alias is than a clone, but their initial bodies may have been grown just like a clone from a bit of flesh. Halaster's "death" in 1375 may have been him actually using some ritual to transfer a lot of this excessive "work" onto these clones and off of himself, and whether or not it was successful could be something we just don't know.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2018 :  13:28:34  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lol, and I'm realizing now... what I'm writing above about using Manshoon clones to anchor the weave of undermountain as part of the ritual that "ended" Halaster exactly plays into Wooly's premise for this thread. All of this within a very short span of time in the overall scheme of things.

1368 Manshoon clones released

1369 Halaster's Highharvestide

sometime between 1368 - 1375 - Manshoon clone enters Undermountain, faces Halaster, has arm chopped off

1375 Halaster attempts ritual and "dies"

Given that it takes several months to grow a clone, and we're talking MULTIPLE such clones to be grown. Plus, I'd very much imagine that Halaster would put means of control into the clones AND change their memories so they don't even know WHO they were. Plus whatever things he may need to do to anchor portions of the "weave" of magic which he's setup in Undermountain to regions that these clones would protect. It may take him a few years to get things prepped.


BTW, my first thoughts were to have him having the clones anchoring the weave similar to how he does. However, he might be afraid to do this, and he might have the clones simply protecting other things which anchor the weave. It might be interesting to think of things that might be done. For instance, WHAT IF he were to capture an illithid elder brain and put it under compulsions (something I cannot picture many mages being able to do...but Halaster?.. that man may just have the knowledge) to anchor a portion of the weave. Even as I write up this concept, my googling even makes a more interesting discovery in that Ioulaum of Netheril apparently transferred his sentience into an undead elder brain and was still alive in 1372 in the Northdark city of Ellyn'taal. Any idea where this is? It might be interesting if Halaster decided to use the mind of Ioulaum to help him anchor things.

Along similar lines, I wouldn't be surprised if Halaster secured a mythallar from the Netherese of Returned Netheril, or possibly even a Udoxias from Jhaamdath, or some kind of Imaskari or Calishite device to help secure Undermountain. Hells, I wouldn't be surprised if he even entrapped a minor primordial/genie/powerful fey being.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 07 Dec 2018 14:35:04
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe

Canada
103 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2018 :  13:48:57  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think those were throwaway references.

Cloak & Dagger says Manshoon got sanctuary with Halaster, but the new Waterdeep book ignores that lore and instead says that Manny was down there without leave, Halaster caught him, they fought, Halaster won, imprisoned Manshoon and cut off his arm, and Manshoon somehow escaped after that. And Manshoon plots to get revenge on Hally for all that.

Not only does this ignore prior lore -- and in fact retcons it -- it really doesn't make sense.

Why would Halaster imprison Manshoon instead of slaying him? Why cut off his arm? If Manshoon was defeated and imprisoned with two arms, how did he escape with one? (Seriously, think on this one: When they encountered each other, Manshoon was hale and whole, and assumedly packing a full complement of spells. He was defeated, maimed, and somehow escaped. So he escaped from a much more powerful wizard, without having a full complement of spells, if any at all, and with his ability to cast any remaining spells very seriously hampered)

And why would a wizard go for a non-magical, mechanical prosthetic, instead of some sort of magical one?

A very simple explanation for this: Both events are 100% true and accurate.

Yes, Manshoon did in fact seek sanctuary with Halaster, and received it via payment of something big (probably stasis clone or perhaps some other spell). However Manshoon required that Halaster give sanctuary to no other Manshoon clone as part of his payment.

Then when a second Manshoon came along seeking sanctuary, Halaster as true to his word. He didn't give the second Manshoon sanctuary. He instead fought and defeated Manshoon and imprisoned him. This kept the second Manshoon safe (which was one of the primary goals of the second Manshoon), but he wasn't being given sanctuary. He was imprisoned.

During the second Manshoon's imprisonment he was tortured (probably not even by Halaster), and then Halaster (or perhaps the first Manshoon who had gained sanctuary) arranged for the second one to be given the opportunity to escape.

The second Manshoon, now missing one arm, was in a bit of a bother and so he quickly got together a second arm (the Spellplague had wreaked havoc with magic and this Manshoon had been imprisoned the entire time so he wasn't too sure what the current state of magic even was so when he came across a mechanical arm he was like "eh. Might as well. Better safe than sorry"). He's now working to set himself up and he simply hasn't gotten around to fixing his arm.

One Arm Manshoon also isn't 100% sure clones created before the Spellplague still work. He suspects they do, but that's a pretty big gamble. Especially when he doesn't understand why his arm won't grow back.

quote:
Originally posted by Gareth

FRCG (4th Edition) mentions that the clone that was with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague.

Ecology of the Sharn (Dragon 373)
-"In the depths of the Sargauth, below Halaster�s Halls, lives a mysterious creature known as the Drowned Queen, an aboleth like being thought to have unusual magical abilities akin to those of the sharns. It is whispered that the Drowned Queen was responsible for the death of a Manshoon clone who sought to rule the Underhalls in the years following the Mad Mage�s demise."
Doesn't say which Manshoon clone she defeated. There could still be one living in Halaster's sanctuary.

There were lots of Manshoon clones. Who knows how many ventured into Undermountain. Makes sense if one had the idea that others would have also had the same idea.





That... actually makes a lot of sense. I like this idea.

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
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Balmar Foghaven
Learned Scribe

Canada
103 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2018 :  13:49:30  Show Profile Send Balmar Foghaven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JohnLynch

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think those were throwaway references.

Cloak & Dagger says Manshoon got sanctuary with Halaster, but the new Waterdeep book ignores that lore and instead says that Manny was down there without leave, Halaster caught him, they fought, Halaster won, imprisoned Manshoon and cut off his arm, and Manshoon somehow escaped after that. And Manshoon plots to get revenge on Hally for all that.

Not only does this ignore prior lore -- and in fact retcons it -- it really doesn't make sense.

Why would Halaster imprison Manshoon instead of slaying him? Why cut off his arm? If Manshoon was defeated and imprisoned with two arms, how did he escape with one? (Seriously, think on this one: When they encountered each other, Manshoon was hale and whole, and assumedly packing a full complement of spells. He was defeated, maimed, and somehow escaped. So he escaped from a much more powerful wizard, without having a full complement of spells, if any at all, and with his ability to cast any remaining spells very seriously hampered)

And why would a wizard go for a non-magical, mechanical prosthetic, instead of some sort of magical one?

A very simple explanation for this: Both events are 100% true and accurate.

Yes, Manshoon did in fact seek sanctuary with Halaster, and received it via payment of something big (probably stasis clone or perhaps some other spell). However Manshoon required that Halaster give sanctuary to no other Manshoon clone as part of his payment.

Then when a second Manshoon came along seeking sanctuary, Halaster as true to his word. He didn't give the second Manshoon sanctuary. He instead fought and defeated Manshoon and imprisoned him. This kept the second Manshoon safe (which was one of the primary goals of the second Manshoon), but he wasn't being given sanctuary. He was imprisoned.

During the second Manshoon's imprisonment he was tortured (probably not even by Halaster), and then Halaster (or perhaps the first Manshoon who had gained sanctuary) arranged for the second one to be given the opportunity to escape.

The second Manshoon, now missing one arm, was in a bit of a bother and so he quickly got together a second arm (the Spellplague had wreaked havoc with magic and this Manshoon had been imprisoned the entire time so he wasn't too sure what the current state of magic even was so when he came across a mechanical arm he was like "eh. Might as well. Better safe than sorry"). He's now working to set himself up and he simply hasn't gotten around to fixing his arm.

One Arm Manshoon also isn't 100% sure clones created before the Spellplague still work. He suspects they do, but that's a pretty big gamble. Especially when he doesn't understand why his arm won't grow back.

quote:
Originally posted by Gareth

FRCG (4th Edition) mentions that the clone that was with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague.

Ecology of the Sharn (Dragon 373)
-"In the depths of the Sargauth, below Halaster�s Halls, lives a mysterious creature known as the Drowned Queen, an aboleth like being thought to have unusual magical abilities akin to those of the sharns. It is whispered that the Drowned Queen was responsible for the death of a Manshoon clone who sought to rule the Underhalls in the years following the Mad Mage�s demise."
Doesn't say which Manshoon clone she defeated. There could still be one living in Halaster's sanctuary.

There were lots of Manshoon clones. Who knows how many ventured into Undermountain. Makes sense if one had the idea that others would have also had the same idea.





That... actually makes a lot of sense. I like this idea.

"Despair not, for in the end all things shall work out for the best - in at least one timeline."
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TheIriaeban
Seeker

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2018 :  18:26:03  Show Profile Send TheIriaeban a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The amusing part about the Manshoon War is that is a plan that a mage of mine was working on before I had even heard of it as being part of the released FR lore. He created a new spell called Trigger Contigency (he actually came up with two different versions of it). The idea was to use it on Manshoon (possibly by casting it on a few pebbles and then scattering them around where Manshoon may walk, a "Contigency Landmine" if you will) so that it would trigger his stasis clone to awake and then they would kill each other. I can also see it going wrong and awakening ALL the clones. It is also useful in dodging fights with high level mages since most have some kind of contingency that will teleport them away. You just cast the spell and the other mage removes himself from the battle. If he comes back, he very likely won't have had time to create a new set of contingencies so he is going to be fighting without any backup plan.

As for Wooly's idea, I like it. Mystra's big thing was to make sure that knowledge of magic is never lost, even if she is destroyed. What better way to store magical knowledge than a fragmented soul who could survive the elimination of magic and then collect itself back together into a being who understands it fully and would be around to teach the next generations of mages once magic returned.

"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe

Australia
217 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2018 :  21:58:23  Show Profile Send JohnLynch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

I do still like the idea that Halaster did something to at least one of the Manshoon's that prevents his magical healing, regeneration, AND growth of a new body from his flesh (i.e. making a new clone).
We know in Dragon Heist that One-Armed Manshoon can create the standard clone spell (with a minor tweak). In my version One-Armed Manshoon lost his spellbook and all of his backup spellbooks had been stolen. So Manshoon has been working on recreating his spellbook and spent 30 years trying to recreate stasis clone. He's close to finishing it, but that could definitely mean the spell will still fizzle and not work and now he'll have to work out WHY it's not working. This can be done by sending PCs down into Undermountain on a regular basis.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

BTW, we know the story from Cloak and Dagger as to what happened with Manshoon's clones.
Aaah. I didn't realise all of them had been accounted for. In my version there were definitely more Manshoons (some of them would have been kept off world and then traveled back to Toril upon awakening).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

However, what if there were more to it. Khelben was a bit of a dick. In earlier editions, there was NOTHING to prevent another person who got ahold of "a big bit of flesh" from making a clone of you. Manshoon made all of his stasis clones, and he setup all these contingencies to have them go off in a certain order, etc... But what if Khelben grew his OWN clone of Manshoon and basically setup similar contingent effects that would "make it activate". Basically it could have been Khelben's working of TRIGGERING mechanisms that caused HIS clone of Manshoon and MANSHOON'S clone of Manshoon to awaken at the same time, and this breakdown then had a cascade effect awakening all the other stasis clones.
I like that a lot.

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Halaster was 100% prick with a side of insane experimenter thrown in. Halaster amputated THIS Manshoon clone's arm and then imprisoned him (how long was the imprisonment? A year or two? Multiple decades?). Our first thoughts are that Halaster chopped off the arm because he wanted to cripple his prisoner. However, WHAT IF his intent was to get enough material to make multiple Manshoon clones? WHAT IF his experiment with a new spell on the Manshoon with the arm with its arm chopped off was to SEE if he could activate a new clone while THAT Manshoon was still alive? For all we know, the "arm off" Manshoon doesn't even KNOW that his cut off arm was used to make multiple extra Manshoons (if I had to guess, an arm might be enough material to make maybe 10 to 20 clones?). Manshoon being a powerful archmage, he'd be a great resource for Halaster, who might possibly use these clones to help him anchor the wards of Undermountain, so that he himself could be free. Especially after the issues created by Halaster's Highharvestide just a year (months?) after Manshoon's cloning fiasco, he may have wanted to put SOMETHING in place should he ever be removed from the Underhalls so as not to put THE WEAVE in danger (I say the weave, because I don't think he would care about the PEOPLE being in danger... his WEAVE being in danger though... unforgivable). Therefore, there may be Manshoon clones all throughout undermountain. These clones may very well have their spellcasting abilities intact, but maybe they have their memories modified/overwritten. Maybe they just know they need to protect certain "things" or "areas", and they help Halaster stabilize Undermountain. They may not even KNOW they are Manshoon. These clones may also be created with a different type of clone spell that's basically an advanced kind of simulacrum, in that they themselves cannot be used to make more clones. Maybe they can't even heal except via magic. In essence, they may be closer to what Alias is than a clone, but their initial bodies may have been grown just like a clone from a bit of flesh. Halaster's "death" in 1375 may have been him actually using some ritual to transfer a lot of this excessive "work" onto these clones and off of himself, and whether or not it was successful could be something we just don't know.

I love this idea. Consider it stolen!

quote:
Originally posted by Balmar Foghaven

That... actually makes a lot of sense. I like this idea.

Thanks. Contradictions can be a good source of inspiration in how you explain them away.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2018 :  00:06:14  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
by "knowing what happened" I mean we have the story of Khelben and the Moonstars and Fzoul, etc... I should have been more clear. My point was that "we might not have known the whole story" and Khelben may have been involved with growing another clone of Manshoon (or even multiple such clones) that triggered the cascade effect. Especially if Khelben had gotten ahold of the stasis clone spell. Another option could have been that he simply FOUND several such clones and changed the triggering conditions on them (back in 2e that was one of my most favorite homebrew spells I ever created... and for 3.5 I made modification of trigger conditions into a prestige class ability)

On the idea you wanted to steal... yeah, I'm digging it too the more I think on it. Especially the idea that these "clones" are more akin to an advanced version of simulacrum. In order to make this more "viable" for in game, it should be insanely expensive to create them compared to simulacrum. There probably should be some other rules to it too, darker things... maybe sacrifice of a soul or requiring upkeep involving larvae or somesuch.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31636 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2018 :  00:23:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They were and they weren't accounted for. I believe there were a total of 40-something clones, and we only got definitive info on a dozen. And then we were told there were only 3 left, when 3E came out and kicked the good storylines to the curb.

The easiest way to spin that is that only 3 were known to be active.

Of course, it's also possible that there are several around that are former Manshoons -- the compulsion to hunt each other down only affected Manshoon clones. So if one decided to make himself a half-elf named Mansiel, then he was no longer a Manshoon clone and could stand right next to a Manshoon clone without issue.

You could also have a Manshoon clone squirrel himself away somewhere that another clone wasn't likely to go, and get around the whole "kill the others!" thing that way. Maybe there's a Manshoon in the Moonshaes, or a Manshoon on the moon....

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7593 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2018 :  13:15:33  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also, on the idea of Halaster making multiple Manshoon clones from the cut off arm (and making them think they're someone else), maybe he's SPECIFICALLY choosing to use Manshoon in this way, because as a result of the magic used to trigger them all at once, he's now beyond the issues of having multiple clones of himself active. Maybe this only extends to clones made of the clones activated as part of this (i.e. clones of the clones activated cannot make multiple clones of themselves). It could very well be an experiment of Halaster's, and maybe he isn't even sure of what the results will be. It also MIGHT be that he's realizing these clones (the ones activated in the Manshoon Wars) AREN'T going insane even after a week of them all being active, and MAYBE he hopes that this means that they can be anchors in Undermountain and be resistant to the insanity that it causes? Just throwing out ideas to see what sticks.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 08 Dec 2018 13:16:34
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader

USA
2044 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2018 :  04:31:15  Show Profile  Send The Masked Mage an AOL message  Click to see The Masked Mage's MSN Messenger address Send The Masked Mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This was why the manshoon wars plot line was so wonderful - it could be spun into so many incredibly complicated tangents that bypass literally any statement by any source.

I think this was why Ed was always like... yes there are still a few more out there - because as long as there are more than one, the possibility for them to grow multiple strains of manshoons exists, each with its own set of wonderful consequences.
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe

Australia
217 Posts

Posted - 10 Dec 2018 :  21:25:17  Show Profile Send JohnLynch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage

This was why the manshoon wars plot line was so wonderful - it could be spun into so many incredibly complicated tangents that bypass literally any statement by any source.

I think this was why Ed was always like... yes there are still a few more out there - because as long as there are more than one, the possibility for them to grow multiple strains of manshoons exists, each with its own set of wonderful consequences.

I personally love Ed's philosophy which I believe is "for each plot hook you resolve, introduce 2 more". Saying "there still exists free Manshoon's" you introduce a near infinite number of plothooks.
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