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Centimano
Acolyte
Spain
3 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 11:09:27
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Hello to everybody.
If you don't care, I will introduce my self directly in this discussion area. First of all, I should say that I'm a spanish speaker, so sorry in advance if I can't explain myself in a sufficiently clear way. I send you all my best wishes to all the forum participants.
And now, I go straight to the point. My doubt, as I mention in the subject, is about FR trolls. As you know, the appareance of the default trolls (of D&D and maybe also FR's) is like this one:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dod_gallery/Feral_Troll.jpg
And like this other one, for example:
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20081013203533/forgottenrealms/images/e/e6/4e_trolls.jpg
On the other hand, as you might know, Warhammer style trolls are like this ones:
http://imgs.segundamano.es/images/861/86176419960.jpg
Or this one:
http://www.wargamingforums.com/graphics/fantasy/stonetroll.jpg
And LotR ones, or at least classic ones could be like this:
http://images.wikia.com/labibliotecadelviejomundo/es/images/6/6e/Concept-_stone_troll-_GW_by_adrian-smith.jpg
It's not only an matter of appearance, as some people has told me. They are, indeed, very different in everything, complexion, speed, strength, intelligence, skin color and some other characteristics such as the weakness that make classic trolls become stone with sunlight while FR's ones don't.
I have the problem that I don't like very much the FR (or D&D, I'm not sure) trolls, I instead prefer much more the "classic" trolls. The issue is: Can I include, maintaining the rigour, the stricteness, the accuracy and "loyalty" to the original FR campaign Setting, trolls SIMILAR (not 100% equal) to the LotR or Warhammer ones as NEW ADDITIONAL TROLL SUBRACES, modifying only little details, and maintaining the original FR ones without modification? ¿And, by the same way, could I change some attributes of the FR trolls to fit them to my preferences, like changing their skin color from green to dark blue or grey-black, enlarging their complexion or making them vulnerable to sunlight? And all of this maintaining, as I said before, the maximum accuracy and rigour to the original essence of the FR world.
In other words, I hope I can explain myself correctly:
Do the creators of FR like Ed Greenwood and other original authors conceded some sort of flexibility to the world of Faerun? I mean in a way some characteristics of the world remain very well defined and "can't" be altered in no way (unless you don't give a **** about "loyalty" to the original concept) while other characteristics offer more flexibility as they can be created, changed, expanded, etc.
Are these trolls shared by all the D&D campaign settings or are them also native to the FR campaing setting?
In other words, when Ed Greenwood (and maybe other authors) designed FR, Did they imagine a precise type of troll or did they let this as an "OPEN" part of the campaign setting, held to the freedom and will of the DM? In case they imagined a concrete type, is it fair to alter it, as I asked before?
Some people has argued that I can change anything I like to, that no one impedes me doing it, unless I want to sell something or infringe copyright laws. That's not the case, I'm only a simple player and a future DM, for me all this is about a question of seriousness and orthodoxy to the original source. Think about this, I also could play a role game of LotR including aliens, pokemon and even hot elf chicks in bikini, but also someone could tell me that I'm a perfect dumb, and he probably would be right. I know I can do whatever I want, even killing some neighbours  , but... Is this enough explanation? 
Other people has told me that rules have been made to be broken, and that the game designers encourage the players and DMs to break any rules if desired. Rule 0: Do whatever you want, directly from Wizards of the Coast themselves: https://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20110719
“The secret we should never let the gamemasters know is that they don’t need any rules.” Gary Gigax.
But again I found an important objection about this issue. This is not about changing rules, but instead of adulterating, prostituting the essence of the fictionary setting itself, the literary background. And I think this point is much more significant and important and worth of reflection than insignificant rules that, by the way, I change anytime I feel like to.
So, what is the response to all this subject?
Thanks,
Centimano.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 12:47:43
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Dear Centimano,
First of all, those are D&D Trolls, and even they have changed overall appearance and statistics over the years. First and 2nd edition AD&D trolls were thinner, and only from 3e on they got a stronger look. They've always been gray or green, but this is aesthetic, not something that would change significantly anyone's game.
I'm used to - and know better - 2nd edition, and most of what I'll say here is based on this premise. Back there, besides the usual troll and some variations, like the aquatic and the two-headed troll, there were also some variations which were allowed into the game, like ice trolls and even fire trolls and trollhounds - there is at leat one Dragon Magazine issue presenting these variations.
In 2e it was common to allow and even stimulate DMs to play with variants to surprise players who used out-game knowledge to defeat well-known challenges, or simply to present them different monsters. Besides, there is the "Fensir", a monster which is subject to petrifying by sunlight and is more based on legendary trolls, in one of the PlaneScape books.
As for the Realms and Ed Greenwood, he is quite open to changes, and I have saved some information he posted about troll variants in his Trollbark Forest, some time ago. Actually, it is an answer to a question from a sage here from Candlekeep:
"Question: Are there unknown breeds of trolls within the forest, mutations?
Ed: Oh, yes. Four-armed trolls, and trolls with prehensile, weapon-wielding (usually large maces) tails have frequently been reported. Some explorers report seeing trolls of unusual size, as tall as many saplings. And so on . . ."
Well, I hope I helped, and if you have further questions, just ask! 
EDIT: The only impact I see in changing the color of your trolls would be if you use their color to make them conspicuous in some backgrounds. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 23 Sep 2013 12:54:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 13:53:25
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Next you'll want all the humans looking alike. 
For some races, I prefer a little more uniformity, but for trolls, "the more the merrier" I say.
I don't want to get too much into my Home-brew rules (or setting), but I have it where trolls were Ogres that got 're-engineered' by the Batarachi creator race*. They contain something called 'morphic blood', which not only allows them to heal super-fast, but also allows them to evolve on a personal level. Thus, a troll that migrates into a colder region will slowly become an ice troll, etc. Thats how I explain it. Every troll looks different because each one has been modified over time by its own personal experiences. Within one generation, an entirely need breed of troll could spawn.
My trolls also don't have males and females - they are asexual. They give birth by 'budding'. Of course, thats very different then canon, but the canon is kinda stupid anyway, IMHO (because they can BOTH procreate and create new trolls by budding, which means they should have taken over the world long ago!)
Also, the trolls that turn to stone in sunlight are ones with a specific Umbral (shadow) template, which makes them larger and stronger, but gives them the sunlight vulnerability (this evolved from subterranean trolls, and has stuck with some groups that have either mixed with surface trolls, or have been driven back to the surface by other groups).
You can fix anything with a little homebrew.
*In my mash-up I still call them Batrachi, but in my completely homebrew setting I call them something else, and they are VERY different (the are aberrations). I use the term 'Batarachi' here because its a term everyone can recognize. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Sep 2013 14:02:36 |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 15:53:43
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Centimano. The short answer is that you can do whatever you want to within the confines of the setting in your game. EVERY SINGLE rule and detail in the published material can be changed and adjusted as the GM sees fit for his or her game. The only limiting factor is the players. If they don't find the changes fun and leave the game, then the GM will either have to make changes, or have noone to GM with.
If you don't like the FR version of a Troll, then by all means change them into what you'd like for them to be. You want them to be dumb and turn into stone if caught out in the daylight? Then change the rules for them so that they reflect what you want.
Rules and Settingbooks are a starting point, not a road block. They are meant to inspire and entertain you, not limit what you can and can not do within your setting. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 16:19:37
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Just echoing what the others said, the world is yours to do what you will with it, if you don't like D&D trolls use something else!
Also, if you play Pathfinder, there are stats here for Rock Trolls, which have the weakness that has them turn to stone in sunlight: Rock Troll |
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Centimano
Acolyte
Spain
3 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 18:17:19
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First of all, thank you for all your responses.
This question is for all the users that have already answered to me: At the risk of seeming a little repetitive, are you SURE that those changes could be made -and Ed Greenwood would feel it's right and suitable- in the FR campaign setting itself? You must keep in mind that I don't want to play any other campaign setting but Forgotten Realms; I'm not thinking about a personal setting very very similar (with very little differences) to FR but instead the FR setting itself with some flexibility. That's a SUBTLE but also a HUGE difference.
A question for Markustay: Are you REALLY playing the Forgotten Realms setting?
A comment for Barastir: Your response is very clear, thank you, but anyway I still see a little objection. The troll breeds you mention (like ice, fire, two headed trolls and so on) are all of them very similar in shape, complexion and even facial features. Anyway I suppose that the answer is "YES" and that I could, in the same way, include trolls so distinct to the FR ones like warhammer "style" trolls (not the same), but I yet feel a bit disoriented.
The most relaxing thing would be to obtain the answer I'm looking for from Ed Greenwood himself, in person.  (And maybe obtain a signed edition of the FR campaign book with his own autograph )
Changing the subject... Just out of curiosity, I have some ideas for the FR trolls, so please tell me what do you think about it. I have found this screen capture from the arcade game D&D: Tower of Doom, based on the world of Mystara:
http://img3.meristation.com/files/imagenes/juegos/360/action/arcade/dungeons__dragons_chronicles_of_mystara/1363975103-4.jpg
And this other one, which looks like official artwork from D&D:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-2lStm18yeB0/TrSoDqeVO_I/AAAAAAAAATM/UHY3IQP7f3U/s1600/trollsde.jpg
As you may know, D&D trolls are, in mostly all cases, defined as having a "moss" green skin, which is a strong green. In the previous images you can see two different tones. The first, from the snapshot, is a mold tone "green" while the second -on the right side of the image- is a greenish blue. I would suggest, as in the previous images, changing the current skin color from moss green to mold color(not specified as blue nor green). My point of view is that most trolls are very dirty and in their filth they usually can acquire this tone of skin that is also more natural and realistic than moss. Besides, I would this way achieve the desired color I prefer for trolls. As you may know, mold is sometimes more close to a subdued blue and sometimes to a subdued green, it's ambiguous (but more frequently close to blue). This way, trolls of many shades and colors could be found, from green to blue including the former gray and others.
Besides, I would make them a bit larger, from the current 9 feet tall to a 12 feet tall and a thin-medium complexion, in few cases of very strong complexion. And more look alike to the screenshot troll of Mystara than to other poor examples of artwork, as shown in my original post. And dumb, but not as LotR or Warhammer ones. And they do not turn stone in any case. This could be my proposal of modified trolls of D&D to be notified to Wizards of the Coast.
The previous I have just said is about D&D original trolls. Regarding the new subraces I wanna add, they would approximately seem like the Warhammer or LotR original ones. Very large too, 12 feet tall or more, always of a very strong and fat complexion, frequently with gut and malformations and hunchbaked bodies, in most cases -not always- subject to become stone with sunlight, sillier than D&D ones, with tones of skin which vary from dark dirty blue to black through many dirty brown and (in few cases) green and mainly grey shades and tones. And black blood, of course. Like this one, more or less:
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs39/i/2008/363/a/1/Warhammer___Stone_Troll_by_Morfinn.jpg
Among the new subraces, I would as well include "BLACK TROLLS" inspired in the LotR Olog-hai, that are stronger and much more evil and don't turn stone with sunlight and more stuff like that.
What do you think about this suggestions? All the opinions and impressions are welcome.
Thanks again.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 20:56:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Centimano
First of all, thank you for all your responses.
A comment for Barastir: Your response is very clear, thank you, but anyway I still see a little objection. The troll breeds you mention (like ice, fire, two headed trolls and so on) are all of them very similar in shape, complexion and even facial features. Anyway I suppose that the answer is "YES" and that I could, in the same way, include trolls so distinct to the FR ones like warhammer "style" trolls (not the same), but I yet feel a bit disoriented.
My answer was YES, especially considering that Ed himself used variations in his game (four-armed trolls and such), and that D&D changed troll's appearance a lot through its editions, as you can see in this image.
EDIT: And don't forget checking the Fensir ! |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 24 Sep 2013 21:00:10 |
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Centimano
Acolyte
Spain
3 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 21:20:18
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Thank you again, Baramir.
Anyway, are you sure you have seen my links (the D&D ones and the Warhammer ones)? The last link you posted is the same as one I have posted just before, that's why I ask.
Anyway, you have made it all clear to me. |
Edited by - Centimano on 24 Sep 2013 21:25:17 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 22:40:49
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I hated the look of the hollow-eyed trolls...
I like Markus's spin on trolls, to a point -- the idea of trolls evolving within a generation is a nifty one, and you could also spin it to do variant things like trolls with chameleon-like blending in the background. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 00:39:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Centimano
A question for Markustay: Are you REALLY playing the Forgotten Realms setting?
Yes and no.
I will always love the Realms, and use it as 'the standard' by which I run all my games, but if there's one thing 4e taught me, its don't be a slave to the canon.
There's nothing wrong with personalizing things to suit your own tastes - thats what D&D is all about. I always liked the Middle-Earth trolls myself, but I didn't want to completely get rid of the canon ones, so I made it where I can use trolls from anywhere, and it doesn't affect anything else. For a really different take, take a look at Iron Kingdoms/Warmachine trolls - I really like those as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Sep 2013 00:40:58 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 12:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Centimano
Thank you again, Baramir.
Anyway, are you sure you have seen my links (the D&D ones and the Warhammer ones)? The last link you posted is the same as one I have posted just before, that's why I ask.
Anyway, you have made it all clear to me.
I've seen SOME of them, because my workplace filters didn't allowed me to check all of them... My bad!  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 15:54:33
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| My favorite are the Mur-Zaghul (demon trolls), though I admit their drawing could use some work. They definitely don't look like the standard trolls though. As to the original question, the easiest way to introduce another form of troll would be to have them come over from the feywild. You don't need the whole world to have these trolls that turn to stone in the sunlight... you just need them wherever you're working. So having a dozen or so smallish tribes of them would be enough to become enough of a nuisance to a region that stories might be out about them, etc... In fact, some wizards may be willing to pay large amounts of cash for petrified trolls or portions thereof. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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A doubt about FR campaign setting Trolls
