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Pluddon
Seeker
57 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 02:34:33
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The party (averaging 8th level) has been quickly defeating every enemy I throw at them. There is a 9th level priest, a 8th level wizard, and two 8th level fighters.
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 03:12:50
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| What edition are you playing? |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
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Pluddon
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 04:58:10
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| I am playing 2nd addition right now |
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Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe
USA
324 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 07:31:16
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| How about a demilich? Okay, that may be a bit to extreme, but it was the first thing that popped into my head. But it also depends on what monsters you've already thrown at your players. A brief list of what they've overcome so far might give us some ideas about what you could try next. Maybe. |
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Pluddon
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 07:52:42
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| They took out a beholder (resulting in the desintegration of their other wizard, a lich( using one of their scrolls and losing the paladin), a total of three adult dragons, and a multitude of enemy spell casters and priests. They have made an enemy of a mid level wizard, but he is currently quite far away. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 10:22:32
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| Have they meddled with any schemes of groups of power or interest on their journeys so far? |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 12:20:49
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Sometimes sheer number makes up for less power. Even a powerful lich would have trouble slaughtering a thousand orcs at once. But if you go the "few but powerful enemies" route, then I think a lich or two would suffice. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Pluddon
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 14:54:29
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| They've been careful not to make too many enemies. They have helped the zhentarim in rebuilding zhentil keep, and gone on some errands for lady alustriel. They have managed to upset a powerful high priest of Malar(and they are currently running right into his current hideout, and left a very bad impression when they met with some Druids. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 15:22:18
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Helping the Zhentarim and running errands for the ruler of Silverymoon?
I would guess they are observed by the Harpers and the Zhentarim alike with one side taking actions if too strongly influenced by the other.
As for the Malar/Druid aspect, i´d suggest sparking some misunderstanding that leaves one side or both wanting them gone in a permanent way(more likely to happen with the malarites).
What region are they currently traveling? |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 17:33:14
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Start using minions and cannon fodder to wear them down and drain some spells and hit points before the final show down with the big bad guys. Feel free to limit rests for the PCs too if they are powering through everything you toss at them. 2E has quite the power curve once PC's start hitting those mid levels. I routinely break the rules for NPC's and monsters in order to keep things challenging, otherwise it falls into having to fight tougher and tougher monsters all the time.
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 18:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Pluddon
They took out a beholder (resulting in the desintegration of their other wizard, a lich( using one of their scrolls and losing the paladin), a total of three adult dragons, and a multitude of enemy spell casters and priests. They have made an enemy of a mid level wizard, but he is currently quite far away.
Looks like a very high fatality rate to me. Sure that you wan't even tougher enemies? |
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Pluddon
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2013 : 23:18:45
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| They are currently on the sea of fallen stars. The canon fodder might work well. A couple well placed fireballs, lightning bolts and walls of fire usually eliminate most threats pretty quickly. It is definitely a spell dominated fight. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 01:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Pluddon
They took out a beholder (resulting in the desintegration of their other wizard, a lich( using one of their scrolls and losing the paladin), a total of three adult dragons, and a multitude of enemy spell casters and priests. They have made an enemy of a mid level wizard, but he is currently quite far away.
They are doing this at level 8 and 9??? |
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Pluddon
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 03:00:31
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| Yes they are. Very smart characters who know how to use some good invisibility spells. It helps that they've found some nice scrolls(anti magic shell, most notably). |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 03:37:45
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Hmmm. Running errand for Silverymoon and the Zhents? I am assuming Darkhold.
Well, when all else fails, send a good old bit of Old Empires sourcebook at them. I.E 2nd edition Unther, Mulhorand, Chessenta travelers or a rogue band that somehow ended up on that side of the world.
2nd edition southern magic and artifacts were so different players might not know how to prepare for it or what to expect. If the players are savvy with the spells and usual run ins with the Sword coast side of the world, it is always good to throw a curveball at them. Southern magic was definitely a heck of a lot different than the usual Mage stuff they may expect. And their artifacts and items were *Gawk*
Maybe the fangs of Set sent a few of their weaker members on some quest for the Godking on the other side of the world. A run in with them and it is possible to introduce some of the more senior fangs of set later as your party gets more powerful.
That was one of my favorite 2nd edition Sourcebooks.
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 04:25:40
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I've got a decent grasp on 2E fights for mid to high level characters...
Their levels seem manageable. What does their gear look like? Are they carrying around an arsenal?
Only four PC's should be stoppable without having to throw too much at them. They are only packing 4th level wizard spells (with the exception of a scroll?) and 5th level priest spells. Chuck even enough 5th level priests and mages (say 3 each) at them and they can dispel the PC's buffs. A small handful of 7th level fighters (with a decent strength and weapon specialization) will keep your fighters busy. Spells like 'Ironguard' are also excellent fighter proofing magics for enemy wizards.
What year is the game set in? Late 1360's? Early 1370's? There is plenty going on that you should be able to use to toss some interesting challenges their way. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Pluddon
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 05:29:43
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| Early 1370's. They have decent gear and slightly above average ac. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 06:03:14
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My suggestion: Ogre Warband led by a pair of Ogre-Magi (male and female).
The Ogres will no doubt have many orcs as fodder...these are cut loose first to simply cause an "engagement screen" which allows the ogres to then lumber in.
Once the party is engaged with the ogres, the Ogre Magi can use their spells (I prefer to allow Ogre-Magi to be Wizards...usually 7th level wizards). In 2e, Ogre Magi are awesome and can have a wide array of spells.
If that doesn't work for you, you can always throw in some special pets that belong to the Ogre-Magi...like a pair of Dire Wolves each, which they release with the Ogres.
In all, I recommend 2 Ogre Magi, 4 Dire Wolves (or Winter Wolves), 7 or 8 Ogres and about a dozen orcs. It doesn't sound like much I know; but don't let the party know the Ogre-Magi are actually there until they strike from Invisibility with deadly precision.
Also, remember that the Ogre-Magi could have buffed the Ogres with spells and even magical items such as:
An Ogre with a netted sealed clay pot that he hurls; even if he misses, the pot can either explode for a fireball...or better, it is filled with Green Slime!
One might have a Javelin of Lightning that it hurls before it closes (magic item the party won't get).
Any other "one shot" magic item.
Even the orcs could be "trapped" such that one may carry a suit of armor it thinks is specially blessed by the ogres; but in fact carries a Fire Trap so that the first time the orc is hit it blows up!
Remember too, the ogre-magi don't attack in a frontal assault. They are smart and cunning, only attacking from opposite sides of the field, and fleeing at the first sign of trouble. These two have heard of the parties magical items and want them! They aren't out for glory or territory...they are tracking your party! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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jerrod
Learned Scribe
157 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 08:05:33
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| Hell gate keep was a nice place to visit during 2nd Ed . |
I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 13:09:11
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If you players make enemies, they can also be ambushed. Consider that they will not always caught enemies unaware, and that they can be attacked while unprepared. Fighters can be attacked at night and without their armors - consider the time one can take to don his armor - and wizards without their books (once I used a thief to drop some bookworms in my PCs equipment while they were asleep). They can also be surprised in random encounters in the wilderness. Enemies can summon creatures to diverge the PCs attacks.
Material components are a nice limitation, as rolling material saving throws (imagine the spellbook of a wizard burning after a fireball). There are some nice articles in Dragon Magazine about traps set by goblinoids, like pits with rot grubs, and maybe with poisonous creatures (remember the kobold picture in the 2e Montrous Manual). Oh, and poisoned arrows or other weapons are also nice (drow are magic-resistant, have darkness at will AND have sleep-poison darts). I once gave a lot of trouble to my PCs with bugbears which attracted a charge from my cavaliers to lead them to a pit full of mud (hidden in vegetation), and they were stuck there while attacked by javelins. Ah, and you can use cannon fodder, but spreading them so the PCs will need more fireballs to take care of them all. And they can fire a lot of missiles (bows fire 2 arrows per round, multiply it by some dozens of goblins in a huge circle in an elevation or ravine, and your PCs will have some trouble. Besides, nocked arrows win initiative, and lots can be fired to break the spellcaster's concentration - since only one need to cause damage).
Finally, my players had some problems with animals and animal-like creatures when I started using the animal tactics from Dragon #187. Our knight was knocked prone by a beast similar to a displacer beast, got stunned and took a lot of attacks from its several claws, for example, for one or two rounds, and under the creature he could not use his sword.
Try to use the opponent's intelligence, and prepare the enemies not only with blockbuster spells, but with protections, wards and alarms, specially those they could have casted before and without time limit (cast the day before), so they maintain their full bunch of spells for the day, and one or two spells for escaping and returning later. Remember that undead don't need breathing (use them underwater or in a smoke-filled place), that some creatures are immune to fire (what about a dragon setting a building wholly on fire while breathing on the PCs?), and remember the inescapable death rules (for some traps).
Well, I hope this helps you, but remember that the role of the Dungeon Master is not to win over the PCs, but to give them challenges to overcome, and to have fun together with them. Good luck with them! 
EDIT: Forgot to mention silence spells, a good limitation to spellcasters along with the darkness spells. 
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 24 Sep 2013 14:55:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 13:53:17
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| Remember the rogue's maxim: big and strong will win a straight-up fight, but smart and sneaky will never get into a straight-up fight. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 14:28:39
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Dragon. In it‘s own lair.
Or a competing (presumably evil) party of adventurers/mercanaries.
Don‘t be shy, play creatures intelligently, even a small band of goblins or bandits knows how to spot a wizard and who they need to drop first to win a fight. They aren‘t squeamish about fighting cheap and dirty and unfair battles, and they aren‘t ultimately fearful about killing off an entire party of adventurers. You shouldn‘t be either, it‘s your players‘ job to be smart and strong (and sometimes cowardly) enough to stay alive, not yours. Your players seem overconfident and cocky, so give them a foe who they can‘t beat - lich, dragon, Manshoon, whatever.
Survivors who run away can always try to gain vengeance later, bringing along more allies to ensure their chances are better than last time.
Try a leprechaun who steals a prized magic item or spellbook, then runs off (leads the party) towards the nearest circle of druids or treants for protection. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 15:04:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Remember the rogue's maxim: big and strong will win a straight-up fight, but smart and sneaky will never get into a straight-up fight.
Totally agreed, in my campaign they never caught, and sometimes not even knew about the thieving villains in an enemy party. They lost a lot of money and even some minor magic itens to these roguish enemies.
Another solution is using NPCs with similar or slightly better stats, who belong to a rival faction (maybe even inside an organization the PCs are part of), someone who knows and wants some magic item they have, maybe even someone who think one of them is someone else who wronged him or her, disgracing his family or honor, and wants vengeance. Someone who is a rival for a paramour, maybe.
If they are in good terms with the Zhents, maybe they could attract the attention of THEIR rivals. Another option is that one of the dragons they killed was being courted by the Cult of the Dragon, and they got new enemies in them. The Cult has undeads, dragons, undead dragons (not only dracoliches) AND powerful NPCs - in my game, the cult wizard has a crystal ball, so they are always ambushed by someone who knows where they are and how to counter their abilities.
One more option: instead of attacking directly the heroes, the villains can impersonate them to frame them from crimes or put them in situations where they would have a hard time with the authorities. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 24 Sep 2013 15:20:00 |
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Pluddon
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 15:17:57
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| Thanks. I've not been shy to kill characters but they haven't encountered any confident rogues yet. The ogre magis could work well al long as they didn't know they were there |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 19:13:31
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| My point wasn't to use rogues, my point was that even a weaker opponent can be quite a serious threat if they avoid direct confrontation and use tactics like swarming, hit and run, ranged attacks, etc. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2394 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 19:57:13
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Is it too bad that my first thought after seeing this thread's subject was "try to team up with the elves"? 
Which may even work. These guys are great at making enemies, you'll never get bored. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2013 : 21:04:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My point wasn't to use rogues, my point was that even a weaker opponent can be quite a serious threat if they avoid direct confrontation and use tactics like swarming, hit and run, ranged attacks, etc.
Got it, but remembered that rogues per se can be quite an annoyance (stealing items, magic componnts, dropping bookworms, etc.). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 02:47:54
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Wooly,
I'm not sure if this has come up 100 times by now (in varied semi-related previous threads), for such 'little guys can be tough to fight' challenges in the 2E era, one of the best modules was 'Dragon Mountain' (http://www.amazon.com/Dragon-Mountain-2nd-Fantasy-Roleplaying/dp/1560765984) and its resident Kobolds. Tough little blighters! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 02:56:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Sometimes sheer number makes up for less power. Even a powerful lich would have trouble slaughtering a thousand orcs at once. But if you go the "few but powerful enemies" route, then I think a lich or two would suffice.
That's what I'm thinking. I was also wondering how many players there are for a group of 8th level characters to be able to take down a lich. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2013 : 02:59:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Pluddon
They are currently on the sea of fallen stars. The canon fodder might work well. A couple well placed fireballs, lightning bolts and walls of fire usually eliminate most threats pretty quickly. It is definitely a spell dominated fight.
If your players are using magic to kill their enemies then have them face a magic-user with a multitude of magic-negating effects to neutralize them and make it challenging. |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
Amazon "KindleUnlimited" Free Trial: http://amzn.to/2AJ4yD2
Try Audible and Get 2 Free Audio Books! https://amzn.to/2IgBede |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2013 : 20:13:43
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I've always been a believer that the most dangerous enemies are the ones that never come out and fight characters face to face, instead working behind the scenes to manipulate events or even the characters themselves. My personal favorite twist is to have a PC patron develop into their enemy though a conflict of interest that arises through events in the campaign. Said patron begins the situation already in a position of trust and respect, and it is VERY difficult (unless you tip your hat as a DM and give the game away) for players to come to the conclusion that their patron has sent them on overly dangerous missions as long as there is some declarable truth into what he/she reveals to them. For example - a king might send the party to confront an "evil wizard" who is really an ancient and powerful lich with countless undead servants and still rest securely in a believable claim of ignorance "I had no idea and am sooooo sorry that 4 of you died before you managed to escape..."
Alternatively, FR is chock full of organizations that can have interests that conflict with PCs, and there is no rule saying you need to choose one with obviously differing ideals. Churches, the Harpers, wizard groups, mercenary groups, trade organizations or political powers are all more wealthy/powerful than any group of PCs should become. |
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In need of powerful enemies
