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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 21 Sep 2013 :  17:55:47  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
In this thread which is still live, I kind of sidetracked the topic of the crown of horns and Myrkul's hand in its creation.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18257&whichpage=3

However, it seems to have brought out some interesting ideas in my head of Myrkul's pre-deity history.... and some lore that was released in 4e that I never would have known about. I'm starting this thread in order to bring out any canon lore that might help solidify or steer the discovery on this topic (I'm inclined to let canon lore guide the endpoint, not try to derive an endpoint and throw in lore to support that end... so I'm looking for people to find the canon loopholes that shoot down what I'm proposing below).

So, one of the main things we were discussing is that Dungeon 170 reveals some lore that Myrkul was "Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm". Also, its discussed that Myrkul is stated as having created the Crown of Horns in VGtatM (and its heavily implicated that this means the original creation, not just its current incarnation since the ToT). Also, its discussed that the first mention of said crown is when the Netherese mage Trebbe is studying it in -2267 DR (per Netheril: EoM) and dies while working on it in -2237 DR. Its also said that the site where Trebbe is working on the crown of horns (Netherese enclave of Shadowtop Borough) is also where it was created.

This brings up the question of when was Murghom founded?

In order to try to answer that question, I searched GHotR, and I find no entry for its foundation... only that Mulhorand expanded into it around -1500 DR.

This also brings up the question of did Murghom worship the Mulan gods prior to their annexation?

The mulan gods descended into Imaskar from the Teyla Shan/Godswatch mountains, which is on the eastern side of Semphar in -2488 DR. Skuld, the city which eventually becomes the capital of Unther is founded in -2135 DR per GHOTR. So, there is 353 years between the fall of Imaskar and the formation of the Mulan peoples into Mulhorand. I'd think it fairly safe to assume that some of the Mulan people were involved in the foundation of Murghom, and that said country MAY have been around even prior to Mulhorand.

This also brings up the question of "was Trebbe working to create the artifact and Myrkul came in and twisted the man's research somehow in -2237 DR, causing his death and turning the item into the crown of horns artifact"?

I think this is a mystery we should delve into, but at present, I have little to no canon information to drive it in any direction. The main thing I see here is that this would put Myrkul, who is from the "Far East" being involved in the "Northwest" with the Netherese Empire.

If Myrkul was a crown prince of Murghom, and if Murghom was worshipping the Mulan gods, is it possible that Myrkul was actually an incarnation of a Mulan god (either Mulhorandi or Untheric) <this didn't make them a deity, it made them a mortal incarnation of a deity, and each new generation produced new incarnations... and many of these family lines were aasimar>?

IF they did worship Mulan deities, I'd find this more than just possible. I'd find it probable. Also, given that Murghom developed separately from both Mulhorand and Unther, I'd suppose that they possibly worshipped some of the deities who weren't as well liked. This could include some of the Untheric deities who died late during the Orcgate wars. Of all the deities, I'd think him being an incarnation of the Untheric deity Nergal to be the most interesting.

If we accept the above question about Myrkul and Trebbe as true, why was Myrkul involved with the Netherese Empire as a mortal?

Could it be that, being an incarnation of gods, Myrkul saw the Netherese empire as a future threat similar to Imaskar. Perhaps he was working against the Netherese. However, Myrkul was also a wizard, so perhaps he was stealing secrets.

Another question becomes, was the crown of horns something akin to a phylactery for Myrkul while he was a mortal?

Given what its become now, I'd think this highly possible. Not necessarily a lich phylactery, but some kind of tool that he used to hold his life force, or maybe transfer his life force, or stop his aging. He may have also become some kind of "incorporeal being" and used certain magics to allow him to interact with the real world again (maybe a pair of "ghost touch" gloves and a robe that hid his ethereal nature).

Now, I'm just going to throw out some general ideas that are popping in my head, and maybe they'll take someone down a path I'm not seeing. These are all based on the prior questions holding water.

Assuming that he was an incarnation of a mulan deity, is there a deity that would fit better than Nergal, lord of the Underworld?

Did Myrkul choose to extend his life because he knew that Nergal would absorb his soul... so he was in essence flaunting the will of the deity of death that he was an incarnation of?

Was Myrkul involved with the Theurgist Adepts movement under Thayd (on either side)?

Did Myrkul have any involvement with Nergal's manifestation's death during the Orcgate wars in -1071 DR? Was he affected in any way by it?


Finally, just because I'm talking about Thayd, I'd like to provide my variation of what happened to him.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15785

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

George Krashos
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Australia
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Posted - 21 Sep 2013 :  18:39:06  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What makes you take the logic leap that he was an incarnation of Nergal from the Mulan pantheon?

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
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Posted - 21 Sep 2013 :  19:47:13  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

What makes you take the logic leap that he was an incarnation of Nergal from the Mulan pantheon?

-- George Krashos



That's why I brought this to here to discuss and look for holes. My thoughts were that IF Murghom worshipped the Mulan pantheon prior to their takeover (which there is no reference to another pantheon in the area), then anywhere there were Mulan royalty there would be incarnations of the gods (and given that in Babylonian mythology, often the high priest was the king... this fits). Since we have 4e lore calling Myrkul the Crown Prince of Murghom, I assume he was
1) born into Murghom and therefore Murghom existed prior to his birth
2) he is of royal Murghomi blood, and therefore a likely candidate to be an incarnation, since the incarnations would rule.
3) able to survive lower levels due to the power lent him by being an incarnation.

I then said, well, if he were going to be an incarnation, which incarnation might make most sense with him becoming a necromancer from either the Mulhorandi or Untheric pantheons. My initial thoughts were Set, but Set doesn't actually turn against the rest of the pantheon until after the Orcgate wars. I then saw the list of dead deities in GHotR from the Orcgate wars (The Untheric gods Inanna, Girru, Ki, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, and Utu are
slain by orc deities.), and Nergal jumped out at me as a deity of the underworld. I know really nothing more of him than what's presented in the old deities & demi-gods from 1st edition. I do know there was an arch-devil by the same name in a realms novel, but I assume that to be an instance of person of the same name.

I can't find any early history on Murghom though. I've skimmed in hordelands, GHotR, FR campaign settings. So, I'm kind of flying blind here. That's why I was hoping there's some lore out there that might make this a more solid premise or lead it down another path entirely. All I can say is so far, it looks like Murghom existed during and/or prior to the -2200's DR, and Myrkul was a Crown Prince then (and by Crown Prince, I'm assuming the firstborn son... could be wrong).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 21 Sep 2013 :  20:31:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Problem is that we do know something of the story of how the Dark Three got their deific power, and it seems strange to me that an incarnation of Nergal needed some other (back-door) way to become 'a god'.

On the other hand, I had once surmised that there was fourth member of the group that they betrayed - one that had much more knowledge of how deities work (I figured that they were the 'classic adventure group', and we were missing the cleric). Now, if Myrkul WAS the cleric (a priestly necromancer), then I should have been looking for a missing wizard instead. Anyhow, thats neither here nor there...

There may be away around the conundrum - what if Myrkul did have a piece of deific power (like a Chosen), but that power was stripped from him when Nergal died? That would explain both his knowledge of these matters (becoming an Immortal), and his intense desire to do so (to take back that which was 'stolen' from him).

I had another theory about Bane... about him being a child of Gruumsh (because he looks like a half-orc) that 'old one-eye' begat on a mortal human woman, and the theoretical '4th party member' I pegged as Kipputytto, who was stripped of her divinity by Talona (there is some sort of war/rivalry hinted at in some Stonelands stuff). Thus, if we figure-out mortal Bhaal's connection to deities (which could be as simple as examining his name), the whole things starts to reek of a Percy Jackson scenario. You got a pack of "wannabe's" killing-off 'lost gods' and trying to force their way into pantheonic structure.

Bane: "Daddy never paid his child-support, so now I'm going to go kick down his door and get my back allowance."

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Gary Dallison
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 21 Sep 2013 :  21:07:55  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Could it be that Myrkul was intended to be the next mortal incarnation of Nergal. ie Nergal the current incarnation had children and Myrkul was the primary heir (ie when Nergal's current body wore out he would possess Myrkul instead).

However Nergal's destruction in the orcgate wars stopped this and maybe Myrkul felt a bit robbed of his chance at divinity

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 21 Sep 2013 :  21:35:40  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Problem is that we do know something of the story of how the Dark Three got their deific power, and it seems strange to me that an incarnation of Nergal needed some other (back-door) way to become 'a god'.

On the other hand, I had once surmised that there was fourth member of the group that they betrayed - one that had much more knowledge of how deities work (I figured that they were the 'classic adventure group', and we were missing the cleric). Now, if Myrkul WAS the cleric (a priestly necromancer), then I should have been looking for a missing wizard instead. Anyhow, thats neither here nor there...

There may be away around the conundrum - what if Myrkul did have a piece of deific power (like a Chosen), but that power was stripped from him when Nergal died? That would explain both his knowledge of these matters (becoming an Immortal), and his intense desire to do so (to take back that which was 'stolen' from him).

I had another theory about Bane... about him being a child of Gruumsh (because he looks like a half-orc) that 'old one-eye' begat on a mortal human woman, and the theoretical '4th party member' I pegged as Kipputytto, who was stripped of her divinity by Talona (there is some sort of war/rivalry hinted at in some Stonelands stuff). Thus, if we figure-out mortal Bhaal's connection to deities (which could be as simple as examining his name), the whole things starts to reek of a Percy Jackson scenario. You got a pack of "wannabe's" killing-off 'lost gods' and trying to force their way into pantheonic structure.

Bane: "Daddy never paid his child-support, so now I'm going to go kick down his door and get my back allowance."



You kind of read my mind there with the "he lost a lot of power when Nergal died" and how he had this knowledge of becoming immortal.

Also, I'd be careful of calling him a chosen of Nergal. More of a naturally born to power scenario.

As to Bane and Bhaal being deity born as well, for the exact same reason you mention, I'd be reluctant to have all 3 doing this. The only reason I proposed him being an incarnation is because it veritably fit the lore as I'm seeing it at this second (he's now considered royalty and he's in the general area just following the arrival of the Mulan pantheon and in the path through which they would have fled). If someone could show that Murghom had another pantheon prior to -2237 DR, I'd be very inclined to think differently. Another option would be to show some existence of Myrkul prior to -2488 DR, thus before the Mulan pantheon had arrived.

Also, one other thing that I didn't get into here... he's the Crown Prince, so who is his father?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 21 Sep 2013 :  22:07:28  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dazzlerdal

Could it be that Myrkul was intended to be the next mortal incarnation of Nergal. ie Nergal the current incarnation had children and Myrkul was the primary heir (ie when Nergal's current body wore out he would possess Myrkul instead).

However Nergal's destruction in the orcgate wars stopped this and maybe Myrkul felt a bit robbed of his chance at divinity



That wouldn't work time-wise with the orcgate wars, because we seemingly have established Myrkul's living before the orcgate wars in -2237 DR and the death of Nergal in -1071 DR.

However, the idea that Myrkul THOUGHT he was going to become the next incarnation and being skipped over..... now, that's a good idea. Perhaps he was the crown prince, but there was a coup (would be interested in other ideas). (Spamming ideas real quick for coup... brother took out father.... uprising of natives who didn't like the Mulan pantheon... incursion by Semphar... invasion by Tuigan horsemen... any better ideas?). The gods of Babylon were big on their kings earning the throne (at least from what it says in the 1st edition Deities and Demi-gods).

Working through THAT idea... maybe Myrkul was forced to flee Murghom. Maybe he nursed a hatred of the Mulan Pantheon and the God-Kings as a result. Maybe that led him to eventually join up with Thayd and the Theurgist adepts? Maybe Myrkul helped create Pholzubbalt, the mausoleum city (aka the Boneyard), as part of helping the Theurgist adepts? Maybe Myrkul helped open the Orcgate? Maybe he even helped betray and kill Nergal?

Hmmm, and if Myrkul helped open the Orcgate... and through it came possibly Bane (whether he is an orc or not would have to be confirmed), that could explain how those two met.

Of course, now I've gotten entirely into the theoretical. This does make a better story though, and one in which we see Myrkul having an inkling of what divinity is, and also having experience with the death of gods. It takes almost another millennium before the Dark Three ascend, so there's a lot of time for other things to happen in between there.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Mirtek
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Posted - 22 Sep 2013 :  01:07:28  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Hmmm, and if Myrkul helped open the Orcgate... and through it came possibly Bane (whether he is an orc or not would have to be confirmed), that could explain how those two met.
Well, Bane came from somewhere much different than Toril and is deeply ashamed of his origins and is bullying others to hide it.

Would being a half-orc be enough for Bane to be secretly that insecure?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
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Posted - 22 Sep 2013 :  05:27:17  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
And then we have 'core Bane', which hints at Bane being a more multispheric power the we used to think.

I said "like a Chosen", meaning exarch power-level. I figure those manifestations should be on-par with a demigod (a mortal joined to an avatar in a symbiotic relationship). I would also think that most 'godborn' are demigods-in-the-making (or more likely, a back-up-plan for daddy).

I figure each of the Dark Three (Four in my other theory) had a connection to divinity, but each was different, and each felt 'robbed'. Only Bane may have been the actual son of a deity (for example, I have it where Talona 'infected' Kipputytto with mortality - the worst disease a god could get). As for Bhaal... maybe his daddy was a certain archfiend (Baal)... one who was presumably a deity himself at one time. Bhaal's hangup was that he wanted to get back the divinity his father lost.

As for Myrkul, I like that he was 'in line' to receive the Manifestation symbiotic avatar), but never got it. That would be his thing.

So Bane (Warrior) was the offspring of a god
Myrkul (Wizard) was the intended manifestation of a god
Bhaal (Rogue) was the child of an ex-god (and archfiend)
and Kipputytto (Priestess) was a fallen deity (whom they betrayed at some point)

A standard adventuring party of evil, like-minded individuals who all wanted to get their own 'slice of heaven', so to speak.

Now, to connect this to the other thread... what if Myrkul WAS Thayd?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Sep 2013 05:28:21
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Mirtek
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Posted - 22 Sep 2013 :  10:12:07  Show Profile Send Mirtek a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

And then we have 'core Bane', which hints at Bane being a more multispheric power the we used to think.
No, 'core Bane' is a completely different unrelated entity. They just used 'Bane' as a placeholder name in early development and then decided to stick with it. A misstake then lead to the wrong holy symbol in the FRCS.

From the Finder novel series we know that Bane indeed tried to become multispheric, but he must have failed or he would not have died during the ToT. Multispheric deities that "died" in the ToT simply lost their connection to the sphere of Toril, but otherwise remained safe and sound in their planar realms. But Bane was truly slain, his corpse send to the Astral and his divine realm abandoned.
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Lord Bane
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Germany
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Posted - 22 Sep 2013 :  13:02:48  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gods can make them look like they want, so Bane being shown as a "orc" does not mean it is how he really looked prior to his rise to divinity.

Just for the sake of playing the thought game while i say he was not an orc, let us assume he was and he came from another place than Toril. This leaves only two options, either a differing Plane or another crystalsphere, which in turn means Spelljamming and that means, he was a Scro.

Ok enough of the thought game. Any suggestion that Bane was arriving through the orc gates is false. Look at the time it happened, then look at when he was questing for godhood.
Then look at the lifespan of living beings. See the gap, even dragons donīt get that old. Only lichdom or a spelltrap can keep you alive that long and Bane was no lich and i doubt he was trapped by a spell like Elminster was.

Sleyvas, who is to say that there is only one crown of thorns? Maybe there are several of that kind and Myrkul knew how to craft one? Maybe he built on prior knowledge of Imaskari lore?
Myrkul can not be Thayd, the Red Wizards went for independance hundreds of years after Myrkul gained divinity and i doubt he would manifest to lead the movement, if such would be the case, why did Thay not became a sole Myrkul worshipping nation? What did make him stop from reaping the fruits of his deeds? Why was Myrkuls church not helping the Red Wizards? Why do we not see the gods of Mulhorand declaring Myrkul an prime enemy of them when he lead the rebellion? Wouldnīt that be a logical move?

Too many questions unanswered in this matter.

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Markustay
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USA
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Posted - 22 Sep 2013 :  13:58:29  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All the more reasons why he would have taken an alias.

But I think if Myrkul was Thayd (and I am not saying he is - that was just a stray thought), it would have been more along the lines of a manifestation (Myrkul may have chosen Thayd to exact his revenge, and gave him the divine power).

And if Bane was a half-deity to begin with, how long he lived is not a problem at all. Plus we had life-extending potions around for years.

Bane could have also been a Sharakim rather then a scro.

Continuing with the 'thought game' - Baal (who could have been Bhaal's daddy) was not only once a deity, but the head of a pantheon! His wife was Anath, who has been connected to Astarte, who is Ishtar in Babylonia... comes full circle, eh? Seems the old Empires may have been filled with these disenfranchised 'godborn'.

The demon baal may have been kicked from his pantheon, same as Lolth. What makes it even more interesting is that his father was Dagan (Dagon?), and he defeated another god to get his position as head of a pantheon - the Sea-god Yamm . So Baal may have been the son of primordial - an elder evil - and he may have passed his victim's (Yamm) portfolio onto his father, or more likely, Yamm was another name for Dagon. This makes even more sense when we consider that Yamm was also Lotan, or Leviathan. Seems Bhaal may have gotten his over-achiever attitude from his dad.

So Bhaal may not only be the offspring of an ex-god archfiend, but the grandson of a primordial. No wonder his pop-pop was so angry he made the waters (at Boreskyr Bridge) run black for all eternity.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Bane
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Germany
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Posted - 22 Sep 2013 :  14:40:57  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Life extending potion begin to fail after an amount of time because the body gets so used to it that they wonīt work anymore, like poison or a disease, after an amount of time one can get immune to it if one constantly gets issued small dosis of the item. If Bane was a half-deity, why needing the help of others in his quest for godhood when he would have divine powers to beat the tests himself?
Baneīs behaviour as a mortal during his quest with Bhaal and Myrkul is not how a Sharakim would behave at all. A god of tyranny coming from a race of friendly creatures? Nope, not for me

Granted i could see Bane having heard from where he ever came from, that mortals can ascend to divinity and Myrkul may have heard of Karsus and Netheril through Imaskari records accessable to him that set them on a path to become gods.


The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Markustay
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Posted - 22 Sep 2013 :  15:06:24  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So the idea of one member of a race not behaving exactly like the other members of his race seems strange to you?

BTW, I am not going to argue any of these points - this is an exercise in "throw stuff against a wall and see what sticks". My Realms has its own rich history, which isn't even close to the canon Realms. As I said, I've connected the dark Three to Kipputytto, who was active in the Stonelands/southern Anaurcoh region post-Netheril for a short time. That interconnects with all my other musings, so its hard to take just a small piece of my material and apply it to the canon realms.

A major difference: There is NO Bane - Bane died during the ToT. Asmodeus sponsored his rise to power (as he did all other 'Banes'), and when Bane sired a child on a mortal woman, the 'essence' of Asmodeus went with it. Iyachtu Xvim was actually 'the son of Satan', and through HIM, Asmodeus became a deity in The Realms (which he was denied, as he is in most spheres, but over the course of milenia he has created many of these 'back door' methods of getting in). Most folks still think of them as two separate beings, so both names are used... but some know the truth (like Szass Tam). All of that is very much homebrew.

Applying that to other stuff going on in this thread - what if many of these non-deities try similar methods of getting into spheres they are banned from? Primordials, archfiends, Elder Evils, etc, etc... could all be sponsoring their own proteges, all the time, but many of them fail. It could also be that some deities go the other way, and are down-graded to archfiends (and we know this has happened at least once). Seems to me there is a web of Machiavellian politics going on in the planes that mortals simply aren't privy to. There's just no way to truly know who's who.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Lord Bane
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Germany
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Posted - 22 Sep 2013 :  15:52:19  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It does not seem strange to me, but i donīt think Bane was a Sharakim. Personal opinion

I am merely trying to ask critical question that forces the thesis to be counter checked and by reevaluating thoughts one may come to a differing result as before.
Also, imagine i give a disapproving finger wag at you for daring to mix Bane with Asmodeus in your home realms

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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Demzer
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Posted - 22 Sep 2013 :  16:04:38  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know what it's stated in N:EoM but Trebbe + Crown of Horns + Myrkul = does not compute for me.

Trebbe was a mentalist, he founded a city for free magical research and his spell-research focused on abiuration and divination (check the Trebbe's ... spells in N:EoM) with the notable exception of Weird (this is already a major "Whut?!?" but at least it's a spell appropriate for a mentalist).

All this clashes with the idea of creating one of the most powerfull necromantic artifacts of all time as crowning achievement for a life of research.

The implication of Myrkul in the first creation of the artifact just muddles things up considering:
1) he wasn't a deity yet;
2) there is no record of him in Netheril;
3) all the other archmages that were tied to the Crown (Requiar and Shadelorn) died, the first after having killed most of his competitors in SB and going insane from Crown usage, the second when the Crown caused the fall of the Enclave;
4) he was of Murghomi/Imaskari origin;
5) he was in the middle of his search for godhood with Bhaal and Bane while the Crown was busy subverting the work of Shadelorn in Shadowtop Borough.

To clarify further 2) and 3):
A) the first "incident" with the Crown caused the explosion on an entire city block, the one where Trebbe (and maybe his associates/apprentices) were experimentig , killing him (them), so i doubt someone could have survived that (considering Trebbe died while being a high level arcanist AND a specialist in magic defenses).
B) the Crown resurfaced in the possession (pun intended) of Requiar that went on a rampage killing other archmages and was shot down 215 years later after becoming a drooling idiot thanks to the Crown meddling with his brain. Again there is no hint of someone else close to the Crown that could have survived Requiar madness and killing spree and then the revenge of the other archmages.
C) the last time the Crown acted in Netheril was after being rediscovered by Shadelorn in -644 DR and until -342 DR the Crown remained in his possession and influenced his magic experiments leading to the destruction of the entire enclave in -342 DR. Again there's no hint of survivors and considering all magic was sucked by the enclave mythallar this time even being an awesome spellcaster wouldn't have helped anyone escape.

Expanding on 5):
The Dark Three probably started their Lost Gods binding (not slaying) rampage with Borem in -359, then Maram in -357, then probably Tyranthraxus (date unknown, in Monument of the Ancients (Dungeon 170) the "Possessing Spirit" leads a contingent of "Twisted Ones" on a revenge against the nations that helped the Dark Three take down Maram "less than a year later" so around -356 DR), then Haask AND Hargut (i always thought only Hargut was a Lost God, but whatever) in -350 DR and finally against Canmod the Unseen, date unknown, place unknown but Ironfang Keep states that after Haask and Hargut the Dark Three went to the Glacier of the White Wyrm/Worm (some maps have Y, some others have O, i don't know which is right).
All this time, the Crown is in Shadelorn's possession and is slowly subverting his spell research so much so that in -342 DR Shadowtop Borough falls.
The only link i can concede here is that on their treck back from the Monument of the Ancients in the north past the Abbey Mountains (now Turnback Mountains), the Dark Three may have visited Shadowtop Borough (that was floating near Mount Shadowtop in the middle of what's modern day Border Forest by what i got from the maps) before its fall and maybe the Crown changed hands having already corrupted Shadelorn spells enough, but its kind of a weak point given that Shadelorn kept experimenting for another good 15 years before the enclave's fall.

(splitting my post here)
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Demzer
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Posted - 22 Sep 2013 :  16:57:41  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
(and i'm back)

Expanding on 4):
We have the Crown Prince hint, then in Ironfang Keep Myrkul uses an Imaskari artifact to bind Haask and Hargut together with three syllabes of power and then there is a very remote and weak connection: on the northern shores of Brightstar Lake (or Gbor Nor) lies the flooded city of Bhaluin, full of imaskari buried knowledge and magic items and home to a group of Myrkulites led by an horned harbinger that is in search of god-killing artifacts and spells (this guys are quite far from any other Myrkulite enclave/stronghold and in the middle of territory claimed by another pantheon and with locals with unknown beliefs [murghomi and semphari may very well worship the same gods/spirits as the Taan of the Wastes]).

My pet theory for this whole mess is to blame it all on Jergal, that's right, he got blamed for a lot of things in the Netherese period (like hiding and not destroying the Jhatiman god-killing dagger or creating/releasing Kezef) so one more isn't going to hurt his reputation.

On with the theory:
Trebbe was looking to create the ultimate mage-duel solution, a crown that would predict and counter any move, attack or spell of the wearer's opponents. Doing so he created the Realms arcane equivalent of Skynet, the Crown of Horns: a sentient artifact with incredible shielding, protection, prediction and divination powers. Being awesome, the Crown achieved sentience earlier than Trebbe's expected and in a dislay of power killed the puny human experimenters in self-defense.
Wandering Faerun/the planes on his own agenda, the Crown decided to settle the score with Shadowtop Borough and took control of Requiar to go on a killing spree of all those that may have had an interest in seeking it and messing with its enchanments.
The "Requiar Gamble" went bad after 215 years because the mortal mind couldn't keep up with the Crowns divinatory powers and complusions, so the Crown retreated again.
After another long absence the Crown deemed Shadelorn a worthy instrument in its revenge, while in his care subverted his spells and researches and led to the ultimate destruction of Shadowtop Borough and the secrets of its creation.
At this point either Jergal, maybe he took notice of the Crown earlier but enjoyed the view (just like he let the Jhatiman actually create the god-slaying dagger and intervened only to snatch the finished product from their hands), or Myrkul, newly ascended and remembering rumors of this fabled artifact, took the Crown for himself.
Depending on what fits better, either Jergal gave the Crown to the Dark Three that were nearing divine ascension (maybe to help them overcome his own minions) or Myrkul took the Crown to experimenti with its twisting and corrupting powers.
The Crown resurface once more in 1337 DR through the machinations of Myrkul through the lich Aumvor with the purpose of corrupting Laeral.
The Silver Fire inside Laeral prevents the worst effects of the Crown (Laeral doesn't turn in a drooling idiot like Requiar long ago) but she is corrupted and turned evil.
Khelben 20 years later shatters the Crown and frees Laeral, and the remains of the Crowns are sealed inside Blackstaff Tower.
During the ToT, when dealt the killing blow, the avatar of Myrkul senses the proximity of the Crown and piercing the Tower wards rebuilds the artifact.
Skynet 2.0 is online with a new OS, Myrkul the Necromancer, thus the known powers of the Crown of Horns are all tied to necromancy and Myrkul with no trace of its past enchantments (the original Crown is no more).

To avoid being completely disruptive in this thread i offer this from LEoF (page 61):
-1500 DR Mulhorandi expansion results in the settlement of the Priador and annexation of Murghom ...

So Murghom was an indipendent nation up until then.

We can theorize that up until -1500 there was a King and Crown Princes in Murghom and the Atamans were established by the Mulhorandi to reinforce the fact that Murghom was no longer indipendent but a protectorate under the rule of the Pharaos, not some petty king.

And like with all this things even in real life we can bet that someone in Murghom kept records of the descendants of the deposed monarchs and that's why Myrkul was "Crown Prince" without actually being a political, public figure.
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Gary Dallison
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Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  10:52:16  Show Profile Send Gary Dallison a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Almost completely off topic, but people talking about Kipyutto and the stonelands twinged my memory about a passage in my notes on the stonelands.

The Yielding Tide: An ancient book called the Yielding Tide speaks of a forgotten city-state that may once have existed in the High Moors. Supposedly the powerful wizards of this city captured a minor goddess in order to steal her power. While the city and its wizards are long gone, those who know the legend (and they are few in number) believe the unnamed goddess is still buried under the city’s ruins. She might grant her rescuers their heart’s desire; or she might slay them in retributive anger.



I cant remember where i got it from, probably the stonelands booklet from elminsters ecologies, but could it be possible that Bane, etc didnt slay all that they stole power from, and instead imprisoned this goddess in the high moors in the stonelands

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sleyvas
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Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  14:45:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane

Gods can make them look like they want, so Bane being shown as a "orc" does not mean it is how he really looked prior to his rise to divinity.

Just for the sake of playing the thought game while i say he was not an orc, let us assume he was and he came from another place than Toril. This leaves only two options, either a differing Plane or another crystalsphere, which in turn means Spelljamming and that means, he was a Scro.

Ok enough of the thought game. Any suggestion that Bane was arriving through the orc gates is false. Look at the time it happened, then look at when he was questing for godhood.
Then look at the lifespan of living beings. See the gap, even dragons donīt get that old. Only lichdom or a spelltrap can keep you alive that long and Bane was no lich and i doubt he was trapped by a spell like Elminster was.

Sleyvas, who is to say that there is only one crown of thorns? Maybe there are several of that kind and Myrkul knew how to craft one? Maybe he built on prior knowledge of Imaskari lore?
Myrkul can not be Thayd, the Red Wizards went for independance hundreds of years after Myrkul gained divinity and i doubt he would manifest to lead the movement, if such would be the case, why did Thay not became a sole Myrkul worshipping nation? What did make him stop from reaping the fruits of his deeds? Why was Myrkuls church not helping the Red Wizards? Why do we not see the gods of Mulhorand declaring Myrkul an prime enemy of them when he lead the rebellion? Wouldnīt that be a logical move?

Too many questions unanswered in this matter.




Never said Myrkul was Thayd... said Myrkul may have worked WITH Thayd. After all, there were more Theurgist Adepts than Thayd. Its like folks focusing on one face of a terrorist organization... there's other terrorists.... and some of those terrorists may be more dangerous than the leader of the movement. I actually gave a link to an entirely different history for Thayd that I'd written up.

As to Bane living a long time, another discussion we were recently having was whether Bane eventually became something akin to a death knight/lich/skeleton warrior (which he may have hidden with illusions). We were discussing that the Black Lord's Cloak may be the item to which he bound his essence. OR maybe he found some other way to live a long time... we're not talking even a millennium before he ascended and more like about 8-9 centuries between orcgate war and the ascension of the dark three.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  14:50:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

this is an exercise in "throw stuff against a wall and see what sticks".


I cannot stress enough how much I want people to understand this statement. I saw a general idea swirling amongst some canon (that Myrkul could have been an incarnation of a Mulan deity). It wasn't necessarily great, and I figured as a cooperative effort we could develop something good. The person that came up with the idea that Myrkul was passed over totally changed my idea and made a MUCH better story. Whether Myrkul was involved with the Theurgist Adepts as a result is another linkage (and Pholzubbalt as well).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
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Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  15:23:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

I know what it's stated in N:EoM but Trebbe + Crown of Horns + Myrkul = does not compute for me.

Trebbe was a mentalist, he founded a city for free magical research and his spell-research focused on abiuration and divination (check the Trebbe's ... spells in N:EoM) with the notable exception of Weird (this is already a major "Whut?!?" but at least it's a spell appropriate for a mentalist).

All this clashes with the idea of creating one of the most powerfull necromantic artifacts of all time as crowning achievement for a life of research.

The implication of Myrkul in the first creation of the artifact just muddles things up considering:
1) he wasn't a deity yet;
2) there is no record of him in Netheril;
3) all the other archmages that were tied to the Crown (Requiar and Shadelorn) died, the first after having killed most of his competitors in SB and going insane from Crown usage, the second when the Crown caused the fall of the Enclave;
4) he was of Murghomi/Imaskari origin;
5) he was in the middle of his search for godhood with Bhaal and Bane while the Crown was busy subverting the work of Shadelorn in Shadowtop Borough.

To clarify further 2) and 3):
A) the first "incident" with the Crown caused the explosion on an entire city block, the one where Trebbe (and maybe his associates/apprentices) were experimentig , killing him (them), so i doubt someone could have survived that (considering Trebbe died while being a high level arcanist AND a specialist in magic defenses).
B) the Crown resurfaced in the possession (pun intended) of Requiar that went on a rampage killing other archmages and was shot down 215 years later after becoming a drooling idiot thanks to the Crown meddling with his brain. Again there is no hint of someone else close to the Crown that could have survived Requiar madness and killing spree and then the revenge of the other archmages.
C) the last time the Crown acted in Netheril was after being rediscovered by Shadelorn in -644 DR and until -342 DR the Crown remained in his possession and influenced his magic experiments leading to the destruction of the entire enclave in -342 DR. Again there's no hint of survivors and considering all magic was sucked by the enclave mythallar this time even being an awesome spellcaster wouldn't have helped anyone escape.

Expanding on 5):
The Dark Three probably started their Lost Gods binding (not slaying) rampage with Borem in -359, then Maram in -357, then probably Tyranthraxus (date unknown, in Monument of the Ancients (Dungeon 170) the "Possessing Spirit" leads a contingent of "Twisted Ones" on a revenge against the nations that helped the Dark Three take down Maram "less than a year later" so around -356 DR), then Haask AND Hargut (i always thought only Hargut was a Lost God, but whatever) in -350 DR and finally against Canmod the Unseen, date unknown, place unknown but Ironfang Keep states that after Haask and Hargut the Dark Three went to the Glacier of the White Wyrm/Worm (some maps have Y, some others have O, i don't know which is right).
All this time, the Crown is in Shadelorn's possession and is slowly subverting his spell research so much so that in -342 DR Shadowtop Borough falls.
The only link i can concede here is that on their treck back from the Monument of the Ancients in the north past the Abbey Mountains (now Turnback Mountains), the Dark Three may have visited Shadowtop Borough (that was floating near Mount Shadowtop in the middle of what's modern day Border Forest by what i got from the maps) before its fall and maybe the Crown changed hands having already corrupted Shadelorn spells enough, but its kind of a weak point given that Shadelorn kept experimenting for another good 15 years before the enclave's fall.

(splitting my post here)



Good point that the crown resurfaced the second time around the time that the Dark Three were very busy primordial-slaying again. Perhaps they engineered its resurfacing because they needed some kind of great sacrifice and having a whole city die in order to obtain the power of Jergal... that sounds kind of right.

I don't have too much of a problem with Myrkul being from the far east and Trebbe being from Netheril. I figure the Netherese would have naturally invaded fallen Imaskar in the years following the God-King's arrival to look for stuff, and Trebbe may have somehow or other run across Myrkul's creation and brought it back to Netheril for study. I then see Myrkul possibly following the item back to Netheril and setting up a trap for Trebbe (thus his death while studying it). That's just one idea though, and maybe someone can come up with something better that keeps canon true and makes a better story.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10851 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  15:49:24  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer

(and i'm back)

Expanding on 4):
We have the Crown Prince hint, then in Ironfang Keep Myrkul uses an Imaskari artifact to bind Haask and Hargut together with three syllabes of power and then there is a very remote and weak connection: on the northern shores of Brightstar Lake (or Gbor Nor) lies the flooded city of Bhaluin, full of imaskari buried knowledge and magic items and home to a group of Myrkulites led by an horned harbinger that is in search of god-killing artifacts and spells (this guys are quite far from any other Myrkulite enclave/stronghold and in the middle of territory claimed by another pantheon and with locals with unknown beliefs [murghomi and semphari may very well worship the same gods/spirits as the Taan of the Wastes]).

My pet theory for this whole mess is to blame it all on Jergal, that's right, he got blamed for a lot of things in the Netherese period (like hiding and not destroying the Jhatiman god-killing dagger or creating/releasing Kezef) so one more isn't going to hurt his reputation.

On with the theory:
Trebbe was looking to create the ultimate mage-duel solution, a crown that would predict and counter any move, attack or spell of the wearer's opponents. Doing so he created the Realms arcane equivalent of Skynet, the Crown of Horns: a sentient artifact with incredible shielding, protection, prediction and divination powers. Being awesome, the Crown achieved sentience earlier than Trebbe's expected and in a dislay of power killed the puny human experimenters in self-defense.
Wandering Faerun/the planes on his own agenda, the Crown decided to settle the score with Shadowtop Borough and took control of Requiar to go on a killing spree of all those that may have had an interest in seeking it and messing with its enchanments.
The "Requiar Gamble" went bad after 215 years because the mortal mind couldn't keep up with the Crowns divinatory powers and complusions, so the Crown retreated again.
After another long absence the Crown deemed Shadelorn a worthy instrument in its revenge, while in his care subverted his spells and researches and led to the ultimate destruction of Shadowtop Borough and the secrets of its creation.
At this point either Jergal, maybe he took notice of the Crown earlier but enjoyed the view (just like he let the Jhatiman actually create the god-slaying dagger and intervened only to snatch the finished product from their hands), or Myrkul, newly ascended and remembering rumors of this fabled artifact, took the Crown for himself.
Depending on what fits better, either Jergal gave the Crown to the Dark Three that were nearing divine ascension (maybe to help them overcome his own minions) or Myrkul took the Crown to experimenti with its twisting and corrupting powers.
The Crown resurface once more in 1337 DR through the machinations of Myrkul through the lich Aumvor with the purpose of corrupting Laeral.
The Silver Fire inside Laeral prevents the worst effects of the Crown (Laeral doesn't turn in a drooling idiot like Requiar long ago) but she is corrupted and turned evil.
Khelben 20 years later shatters the Crown and frees Laeral, and the remains of the Crowns are sealed inside Blackstaff Tower.
During the ToT, when dealt the killing blow, the avatar of Myrkul senses the proximity of the Crown and piercing the Tower wards rebuilds the artifact.
Skynet 2.0 is online with a new OS, Myrkul the Necromancer, thus the known powers of the Crown of Horns are all tied to necromancy and Myrkul with no trace of its past enchantments (the original Crown is no more).

To avoid being completely disruptive in this thread i offer this from LEoF (page 61):
-1500 DR Mulhorandi expansion results in the settlement of the Priador and annexation of Murghom ...

So Murghom was an indipendent nation up until then.

We can theorize that up until -1500 there was a King and Crown Princes in Murghom and the Atamans were established by the Mulhorandi to reinforce the fact that Murghom was no longer indipendent but a protectorate under the rule of the Pharaos, not some petty king.

And like with all this things even in real life we can bet that someone in Murghom kept records of the descendants of the deposed monarchs and that's why Myrkul was "Crown Prince" without actually being a political, public figure.




I like this linkage of Myrkul and the drowned city of Bhaluin with its weird death cult. I had forgotten about it, and what occurs to me is that if Myrkul had been a crown prince of Murghom, and there was a coup... perhaps he and those who followed him fled to the fallen Imaskari city of Bhaluin. Now, after his death (or even perhaps while he was a god.. or maybe while cast out as an avatar), maybe he's sent visions to those who follow him to seek out something he wants that he had hidden in Bhaluin.

This all still works with the idea that maybe Murghom was one of the places to which the Mulans fled... and maybe they setup a ruling government that just didn't last. Even if it lasted say 3 generations, that's a decent span of time, but enough that history might not even note it too much (again, its almost 300 years before Skuld is created... so something happened during that span). The name of the country created could have stuck though (or perhaps Myrkul's father kept an old name whenever he seized power), and thus the name of Murghom has stayed over the years. Murghom may have changed hands regularly every century until the Mulhorandi Empire finally seized it about a millennium after the fall of Imaskar.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Lord Bane
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Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  15:50:36  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am just as much throwing "stuff" against a wall as you, just i question the things that are flung to help get a more precise understanding of "what if". Thesis and anti-thesis. I just donīt see a connection between Myrkul and the Red Wizards and their uprising. Granted he could have held a grudge against Mulhorand for robbing him off his throne if he really was ancient royalty of Murghom and not a puppet installed by the mulans but once he became a god, what would it matter to him then? We donīt see him go on a "crusade" with his church against Mulhorand. There could be spellcasters who venerated Myrkul, yes that could explain the formation of the school of necromancy when Thay was founded but i wouldnīt give them that much weight.

As for Bane being an "undead" being, if such had been the case, wouldnīt Myrkul as a necromancer try to take control over it? Wouldnīt Myrkul try to grab the most power and not leave it up to his "tool"?

When ideas are swirling around, it is also the task to look at them and dissect them to see if they have any value or might be nothing more than thoughts without any deeper meanings behind them. Anything can "stick to the wall" but only when one asks questions about it one can truly see what does "stick" in the end.



The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.

Edited by - Lord Bane on 23 Sep 2013 15:51:42
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sleyvas
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Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  17:12:29  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane

I am just as much throwing "stuff" against a wall as you, just i question the things that are flung to help get a more precise understanding of "what if". Thesis and anti-thesis. I just donīt see a connection between Myrkul and the Red Wizards and their uprising. Granted he could have held a grudge against Mulhorand for robbing him off his throne if he really was ancient royalty of Murghom and not a puppet installed by the mulans but once he became a god, what would it matter to him then? We donīt see him go on a "crusade" with his church against Mulhorand. There could be spellcasters who venerated Myrkul, yes that could explain the formation of the school of necromancy when Thay was founded but i wouldnīt give them that much weight.

As for Bane being an "undead" being, if such had been the case, wouldnīt Myrkul as a necromancer try to take control over it? Wouldnīt Myrkul try to grab the most power and not leave it up to his "tool"?

When ideas are swirling around, it is also the task to look at them and dissect them to see if they have any value or might be nothing more than thoughts without any deeper meanings behind them. Anything can "stick to the wall" but only when one asks questions about it one can truly see what does "stick" in the end.






Ah, I see the disconnect now. You're thinking Thayd as in the being that helped form Thay as an incorporeal entity that helped with the red wizard revolution. I'm talking MUCH earlier (2 thousand years earlier in the -1060's -1070's DR) when the two may have been involved. Thayd and the Theurgist Adepts, who rebelled against the Mulhorandi Empire in seeking freedom from religion at that time. Myrkul wasn't yet a deity and Thayd wasn't yet executed.

Also, now that you bring up Thay the country that formed much later, interestingly enough, Myrkul was one of the two most popular religions (if not THE most popular) following its formation. If Thayd and Myrkul had been friends in life, there might be some linkage there.

On the idea of Myrkul controlling Bane if he were undead, just how many liches fear being controlled by necromancers that they choose to not become a lich and extend their (un)life? If Bane were powerful enough, or had protections against such magics, it might not be a problem. The main point though of that was that people were asking how Bane could have lived so long. I assume that Bane did SOMETHING that extended his life so that he could amass the power to become a deity. The idea that his life force is somehow tied to the dark lord's cloak (around which he's placed considerable forces) makes sense. I'm glad to hear other ideas of exactly how he might have tied himself to something like a phylactery (possibly in the form of the dark lord's cloak).... or similar ideas...

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

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Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  17:20:57  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just wanted to pop in to say that I'm very much enjoying this thread. If I ever have the opportunity to write about the Dark Three or Seven Lost Gods in the future, this will be an invaluable resource.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames
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Lord Bane
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Posted - 23 Sep 2013 :  17:34:04  Show Profile Send Lord Bane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The whole "Bane is an undead being" falls apart as soon as you take up another idea that says he came to Toril at a later stage in time and not during the Orcgate Wars. Mind you, people put too much emphasis on how he is displayed in Faiths and Pantheons. Gods can take any form they wish and Bane is about fear, if he gives himself a "sinister" looking appearance then it only serves his agenda. Yet it does not mean that he really looked like that when he rose to confront Jergal. The cloak is an artifact infused with divine essence of Bane. No lich would carry the own phylactery with him/her/it. Itīs too risky to get taken out in one attempt and their retreat being destroyed in the process aswell. Also if Bane was undead why did he not choose also the domain of undeath or death for himself when he had the chance and thus make him untouchable by Myrkul?

Let me bring up a differing aspect. A thesis about Myrkul. He is of Murghom, which at his time was already under mulan rule. This could mean that he was also subject to the worship of mulan deities and maybe he became a necromancer due to teachings of Set. While i do not agree that Myrkul and Thayd were cooperating when both lived, let us assume they did and Myrkul instigated through the teachings of Set the agenda to go against the mulan kings and in a long shot the revolt of the red wizards against Mulhorand.
Of course this thesis is on weak ground because Set was also effected by the event impacting Mulhorand but i canīt always be the one to destroy thought games now can I?

The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act.
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