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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10979 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2013 :  23:02:23  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

Yeah, this is roughly where I was going with it. It would fit that the item is akin to some kind of "host" or "anchor". I'd hate to make it a lich, just because that would be too common.

Definitely I think the crown is an anchor of sorts of Myrkul, and I'm sure we have a lot more to learn about its origins. I really sort of like the idea that it's like a phylactery, but I agree that Myrkul as a simple lich would be sort of disappointing story wise. But a demi-lich, or some kind of unique and powerful undead necromancer whose soul is tied to the crown, I really like that idea a lot. It also ties in with (when Myrkul was a deity) his amusement whenever a mortal tried to escape the certainty or finality of death. Myrkul might have enjoyed the irony that people were trying to accomplish something that he -had- actually accomplished: he never died, never had his soul claimed by a deity.

quote:
VGtatM has 2 of the major abilities revolving around a "cone of death" that turns people who die into shadowraths (it says the equivalent of wraiths & spectres), and the second power is "Myrkul's hand" in which it is a touch attack that surrounds someone with black flames and then turns them into a shadowrath. So, rather than a normal lich, what if he was a being of spirit that resided within the crown. What if he had previously been a follower of Auppenser in fact (after all Jaamdath was formed in -5800 DR .... and Trebbe didn't get his hands upon it until more than 3000 years after that ), and thus he embraced the idea of becoming a living sentience. However, one of the drawbacks of the item's creation was that it drained the body of whomever it possessed and flooded said body with negative energy (eventually rotting them all down to a skeletal "lich-like" state). This would also explain why whomever possesses the crown of horns becomes more "lich-like". Perhaps he even needs them to become more undead like in order to possess the wearer, much like his avatar ability as presented in the old ToT module Waterdeep.... he needs the body that he is going to "inhabit" to be filled with negative energy.

Absolutely I agree that it fits for Myrkul to have been some kind of empowered spirit tied to the negative energy plane and the crown. Absorbing soul energy for sustenance seems to be key, and slowly turning the wearer into a lich over time also fits with this.

I'm less certain about the connection to Auppenser and Jhaamdath, though. I still think we need to somehow figure in Myrkul's known history as having been "Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm" and Jhaamdath seems a bit too far back to jive well with that. And a prior worshiper or follower of Auppenser, I just don't know. Myrkul hasn't (to my memory) been connected with psionics in any specific way, and I sort of doubt that he would worship anyone. Or if he did at one point, I'd imagine that he might have worshiped a deity of Murghôm that died or was slain - and that became a sort of epiphany for him, perhaps launching his own desire to become a deity.

quote:
Along this similar vein, as I perused earlier, what if Bane and Bhaal were ALSO something similar. For instance, I could see Bane as something akin to a death knight, investing a large portion of his essence into say his cloak (the one in the temple known as the Black Lord's Cloak.... which he keeps an inordinate number of priests guarding for it to be such a backwater location). Perhaps he didn't want to invest it in his armor or weapon, both of which would see possible damage in combat, whereas his cloak might be more easily magically mended. Unlike Myrkul, who would possess other beings, perhaps Bane was more like the standard "death knight" idea or perhaps even the old "Skeleton Warrior" idea from the 1st edition Fiend folio... but with the "circlet" for a skeleton warrior being replaced with the Black Lord's Cloak, and perhaps Bane had slew his creator and wore his own cloak (and perhaps he then later further enhanced it magically to protect it). Given Bane's fascination with physical undead, this could make sense.

I suppose it's possible that Bane and Bhaal were unique forms of undead prior to their ascension and had each possessed some kind of unusual near-artifact of sorts (like the crown). Are you suggesting that Myrkul crafted such items for them, and infused them with powers they'd acquired along their journeys?

The one issue I would have with this is that we haven't seen a "Bane artifact" or a "Bhaal artifact" (or extremely high-end items, if not artifacts) show up for them after their deaths. I'd think certainly such an item would have been something their high priests would have known about and attempted to use - for themselves, if not to trigger their rebirth.

Also, "an item for each" tends to draw away from the story of their rise in power as mortals (or at least as pre-ascended adventurers). Much of their power seems to really have come from their "win" against the Seven Lost Gods - though, admittedly, we don't know many details about that. An honestly, I'd love to know more specifics not only about that encounter but about the Seven Lost Gods generally.

quote:
Bhaal becomes a bit different. I'm inclined to say that sense the knife is so focuses for him, maybe he was using a knife as his "host". However, given that he had Bhaalspawn... and that when he died his blood infected a river.... Bhaal makes me think of something like a disease transferred by bodily fluids (yes, Bhaal might be an STD).... I'm not sure where to take it from here, other than the general idea that maybe he learned some way that if he died he could pass into his children? Perhaps its some sort of modified reincarnation, which would be horrific to beings like the Ffolk... but it would follow with their druidic types of magic to a degree. Given his particular enmity with the Ffolk, perhaps he was somehow involved with them before becoming a deity. I'm definitely open to ideas here for this one.


Definitely some interesting speculation here. Magic diseases of different kinds have been featured in the Realms. Sometimes related to an artifact, sometimes specific demons or other powerful entities have been involved. Perhaps the Trio managed to not only absorb the power of a Lost God, but they also acquired the "tools of office" for that deity in some way.

I've always thought it very odd that Bhaal, being the god of death, chose to -procreate- as his means of survival and rebirth. Sure, the Bhaalspawn sowed chaos and bloodshed wherever they went, but the act of procreation was an interesting choice. For some reason, the Greek fates are brought to my mind, and how the youngest of them would gather "pre-soul" material from the edge of reality and then they'd spin it into an actual soul. They knew that every soul they brought into existence would eventually be born, grow old, and die, but they still did this anyway. Being the god of death, Bhaal chose to focus on the "murder" aspect of his portfolios, but what if he had always been interested in the ephemeral nature of life and death and had acquired some kind of soul-harvesting "item of office" of the Lost God the Trio absorbed? Perhaps some item or piece of the Lost God called Camnod the Unseen? Not that we know much of anything about him, though.








Yeah, the Jhaamdath/Auppenser part was a bit of a stretch, and the more I think on it, its too close to the history that I have written for an mobile, intelligent sai in my campaign named Lorey. That being said, I wasn't aware of this tie-in to "Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm" until you just mentioned it (and just to document it, it must be in "Monument of the Ancients." Dungeon #170. Page 80). So, this places Myrkul NEAR Imaskar at least, such that he might have gotten some learning there.... I'm tracking down the magazing now to read.

On the Bane and Bhaal piece, I wouldn't want Myrkul involved at all in their longevity. Also, I agree, having all three of them having artifacts... not a good idea.

The idea for Bane was that he would be the more classic "physical" undead, but one of melee skill and raw strength. Again, not horribly tied to the idea as much as I am with Myrkul.... but let's face it, some powerful warriors become death knights, skeletal warriors, etc... to prolong their lives. The only reason I mentioned it was because of someone else's thread about the temple known as the Black Lord's Cloak and how it had this cloak that was supposedly Bane's... and how the temple is in nowhere territory and yet has a ton of priests guarding it... and how they theorized that perhaps some ritual was performed with said cloak to rebirth Bane.

I'm not sure where to go with the Bhaal one, but the idea that somehow he was extending his life by transferring his intelligence into his offspring whenever they came of age kind of works with the whole Bhaalspawn idea somewhat. Hey may have even shared his secret with Bane, and thus the creation of Iyachtu Xvim, but Xvim worked against it (or maybe he didn't... none of this is solid... more throwing out ideas and seeing what sticks.. and you're being a good sounding board).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10979 Posts

Posted - 31 Aug 2013 :  23:11:35  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
hmmm and just to document the entry from dungeon 170, pg 80 about Myrkul (which is 4th edition lore, so now I understand why I never saw it)

Entry 10
Etched upon a mausoleum wall within Valhingen Graveward:

The necromancer was the most reserved of the three dark heroes, a gangling man of advancing years, speaking in a high whisper and largely keeping to himself. His emaciated form was shrouded within dark robes, the man’s cold eyes bespoke of malign intelligence and eldritch might. His given name: Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm.

And now, I'm forced by curiosity to read this module.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2013 :  00:20:47  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's really a pretty interesting mini-campaign. Not a whole lot of reveals, but some interesting ones.

Also, about the Black Lord's Cloak, that's related to the city of Mourktar and his really old temple there, right? I'll have to go back and read that. Was the source for that Dragons of Faerun?


Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10979 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2013 :  00:58:50  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

It's really a pretty interesting mini-campaign. Not a whole lot of reveals, but some interesting ones.

Also, about the Black Lord's Cloak, that's related to the city of Mourktar and his really old temple there, right? I'll have to go back and read that. Was the source for that Dragons of Faerun?





The original stuff about the Black Lord's Cloak was from Faiths & Avatars.

Here's the discussion where Aldrick was bringing up some really interesting ideas like a month or two back. Its a really good thread.

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17887&whichpage=1


Below is the entry from Faiths and Avatars which discusses that the cloak is animate and often sucks people dry of blood.

The largest and most powerful temple of Bane was not located in Zhentil Keep, nor was it the court of the High Imperceptor at the Black Lord#146;s Altar in Mulmaster (though that is usually considered the center of the faith). The largest temple of Bane in all Faerûn is the Black Lord#146;s Cloak in the city of Mourktar on the edge of the flat, sandy plains of Threskel. It has been said (accurately) that only the presence of this temple, which grew to rule the entire city following the death of King Theris and the subsequent assassination of his successor, prevented the more ambitious Red Wizards of Thay from abandoning all plans to assault Rashemen and instead establishing a beachhead in Threskel from which to attack decadent Unther and fractious Chessenta.

Imperceptor Kabarrath Telthaug styled himself Dread Imperceptor in the
days before the Time of Troubles, asserting his own independence of the standard Banite hierarchy. It is not hard to understand why: He commands over 700 Banite priests of rank, another 1,000 lesser clergy members, and a well-equipped, harshly disciplined army of loyal troops armed with many items of minor magic, and well practiced in slaughter. This army has been force-marched west to ravage cities in Chessenta time and time again only to pull back when the exercises are over.

The temple is named for its only relic, an animated black cloak once
worn by Bane himself that became a sentient monster that envelops people from time to time and sucks them dry of all blood. The Black Lord#146;s Cloak temple complex has grown into a vast palace where Kabarrath keeps the wealth of subject Threskel and its fleet of merchant and fishing vessels. The widely feared pirate fleet of Alkoth is said to have secretly served the priests of the Cloak, and it is certain that the adventuring bands the Six Black Blades and the Crow Banners (active in Murghom, Mulhorand, and Var)#151; and probably other tomb-robbing organizations as well#151;were agents sent forth from Threskel to gather magic, wealth, and less glamorous supplies for
Kabarrath#146;s temple and the greater glory of Bane.

With the destruction of the Untheric pantheon, Imperceptor Kabarrath
perceives a power vacuum in which he can seize control of that ancient nation. It is unclear which deity supports this powerful temple that still maintains its nominal dedication to Bane in the aftermath of the Time of Troubles. The incipient madness which has touched Kabarrath in recent years suggests the hand of Cyric, but the recent change in battle color in the army from red and black to green and black suggests that of Xvim.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Therise
Master of Realmslore

1272 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2013 :  01:57:50  Show Profile Send Therise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, hrrm. An artifact-level sentient vampiric cloak.

Two weird things occur to me, just off the top of my head. You'll have to help me with Bane, I know him less well than the other two.

Do we know when the cloak gained sentience? Was it originally enchanted by the then-mortal Myrkul?

Were any of Bane's titles related to blood? I'm not suggesting he himself was a vampire - rather, if the cloak sucks blood and he wore it anyway, it could support your idea that he was a death knight.

Weird idea: what if Bane's essence was drawn into the cloak and it's still there? What if the current Bane really is Xvim, and this cloak actually houses Bane? Might be a way for us to get both of them back in 5E. Or vice-versa? Bane perhaps put Xvim's essence into the cloak rather than destroy him.

Other weird idea: perhaps Bane was a unique undead death knight, but he went to great effort to conceal it? The "Monument" adventure refers to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul as the "Dead Three"... all three were undead? I'm guessing Bane fathered Xvim -after- his ascension, but at that point it wouldn't matter if he'd been undead beforehand.

Also, perhaps there's something unique or special about Threskel and Mourktar. What if Mourktar was the site where Bane ascended? The cloak fell away from him and his first priests were there with him, so they honor the relic on that site. Maybe they even feed people to it as a demonstration or ritual.

Random remembered thing: in the 3E Faiths and Pantheons (p. 169), there's an ancient and weathered menhir on an island off the Sembian coast. Deep under it (35 feet of solid rock) is buried the heart of Borem, with the Jathiman dagger plunged into it. The menhir has an inscription left by the Dark Three, written in Jhaamdathan. Maybe Jhaamdath is more significant than I thought. It suggests that Borem's home was in Jhaamdath, and that Borem himself was the (primodial) "patron of anger"... what if Jergal's quests involved having them destroy primordials representing emotions and not just elements? Or maybe they were tasked with putting down tyrant exarchs that all had been given shards of Jergal's power?


Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families!

Edited by - Therise on 01 Sep 2013 02:58:35
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10979 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2013 :  09:48:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Therise

So, hrrm. An artifact-level sentient vampiric cloak.

Two weird things occur to me, just off the top of my head. You'll have to help me with Bane, I know him less well than the other two.

Do we know when the cloak gained sentience? Was it originally enchanted by the then-mortal Myrkul?

Were any of Bane's titles related to blood? I'm not suggesting he himself was a vampire - rather, if the cloak sucks blood and he wore it anyway, it could support your idea that he was a death knight.

Weird idea: what if Bane's essence was drawn into the cloak and it's still there? What if the current Bane really is Xvim, and this cloak actually houses Bane? Might be a way for us to get both of them back in 5E. Or vice-versa? Bane perhaps put Xvim's essence into the cloak rather than destroy him.

Other weird idea: perhaps Bane was a unique undead death knight, but he went to great effort to conceal it? The "Monument" adventure refers to Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul as the "Dead Three"... all three were undead? I'm guessing Bane fathered Xvim -after- his ascension, but at that point it wouldn't matter if he'd been undead beforehand.

Also, perhaps there's something unique or special about Threskel and Mourktar. What if Mourktar was the site where Bane ascended? The cloak fell away from him and his first priests were there with him, so they honor the relic on that site. Maybe they even feed people to it as a demonstration or ritual.

Random remembered thing: in the 3E Faiths and Pantheons (p. 169), there's an ancient and weathered menhir on an island off the Sembian coast. Deep under it (35 feet of solid rock) is buried the heart of Borem, with the Jathiman dagger plunged into it. The menhir has an inscription left by the Dark Three, written in Jhaamdathan. Maybe Jhaamdath is more significant than I thought. It suggests that Borem's home was in Jhaamdath, and that Borem himself was the (primodial) "patron of anger"... what if Jergal's quests involved having them destroy primordials representing emotions and not just elements? Or maybe they were tasked with putting down tyrant exarchs that all had been given shards of Jergal's power?





We don't know when the cloak gained sentience with certainty. I assume nothing in that respect, it may have been a requirement in life as well. It could be that he's some kind of weird undead (not a death knight, not a skeleton warrior) whose "phylactery" required occasional blood sacrifices (much like how liches occasionally need larvae). I don't know of any particular ties of Bane to blood, but perhaps the cloak periodically must be infused with life force. If Bane were undead, I see him vain about it (practical about it?) and using items to cover it up (after all, if people don't know you're undead, they don't know to use positive energy against you).

On the dead three comment... it could be viewed that way, but I'd be leery of using it in an argument, because they've been called the dead three ever since they all died in the ToT. Also, in the ideas we've posited so far, Bhaal isn't dead... he's simply using some odd ritual to somehow take over the bodies of his children whenever he grows old... so he's a body snatcher/thief.....

I was wondering the same thing about Mourktar/Bane's Ascension, but its entirely possible that he ascended in the Gray Wastes. The problem we have is this silly story of skull bowling and knucklebones. I assume that that all is hyperbole, and I find it interesting that in the end "Lady Luck" drives the decision for them.... makes me wonder if in some weird way Tyche was involved... also makes me wonder if somehow the Dark Three's ascension and the Dawn Cataclysm are somehow related.... but I can't seem to wrap my head around a story there yet. I do wonder though if the knucklebones of Jergal were real artifacts, and did the Dark Three somehow hunt them down in a bid to take down Jergal.... and were these knucklebones of a spellweaver?

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10979 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2013 :  09:52:03  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and on the Jhaamdath thing... the Dead Three were involved with Jhaamdath to at least some degree, because if you look at the stories where they interacted, it surrounded Jhaamdath. Of course, it was also in the areas of Netheril, Calimshan, Threskel, the Moonsea... apparently now Murghom for at least Myrkul.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1126 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2013 :  14:33:24  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't want to derail this conversation about the origins of Myrkul, I'm enjoying it too much.

But the idea put forward that Myrkul was Trebbe or otherwise was alive during the time of Netheril comes from an emphasis on that "Created by Myrkul" sentence in VGtatM. Myrkul *RE*created the Crown of Horns after Khelben smashed it. New look and everything.

In N:EoM, the Crown was made as a powerful, sentient necromantic magical item.

When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.

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thenightgaunt
Acolyte

USA
36 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2013 :  20:49:06  Show Profile Send thenightgaunt a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach

I've mostly kept silent on this topic as I see no point in arguing what has been solidly known canon for years now. I'm just going to point you to my thread on Embedded Avatars here http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18216 and refer you to the post Wooly made and the response from THO...it doesn't get much more canon than that. The 'peasant girl' was obviously a special person to receive the divine essence of Mystryl...otherwise she wouldn't have received it. If Karsus couldn't handle her divinity...how in the world would a simple peasant girl handle it? UNLESS she were VERY special in some way (again, look at THO's response). Honestly, not much of this is open to interpretation...it's spelled out very clearly in multiple sources. What you spin for your homebrew is all well and good...but that doesn't make it canon. Cheers.



To go a bit Planescape on this one. It might be summed up that Karsus, despite his power, was not what Midnight, Kelemvor or Cyric were, potential Powers. They had it in them to become Powers, Karsus did not (perhaps), and all the magic in the world wasn't enough to change that. Or maybe its the difference of a dead god vs a live one. Mystra was dead when it started, Mystral wasn't, so there was someone fighting back when Karsus gave it a shot. Or maybe taking on godhood's something you have to ease into like a really hot bath. And if so maybe Kelemvor's explanation is that it's easier to survive the process when you're already dead.

On the original idea though. I always like Karsus. It was a story of hubris, and striving to save his people. And it really gives a great concept for the mindset of the Netherese nobility which was reinforced when the Shade showed back up. It also helped define my concept for gods in the Realms. I see them as bickering entities with knowledge and wisdom gained from their followers and fields but faulty at heart. To be honest, I put alot of Terry Pratchett's Diskworld's gods into my FR gods. To me it makes sense. Mystral should have seen it coming, Mystra should have seen it coming (who attacks a fully powered Helm?), Cyric's instability was obvious from the start, Waukeen should have seen it coming, and Shar (despite being one of the oldest gods) shows wisdom and common sense of a drug-addled celebrity at times. If they start out a god they seem to be slow learners and if they start out mortal they seem to get a bit suck in their ways (think the former Magister Azuth vs 20 something 7th level, 10 wisdom Ariel "Midnight" Manx).

But that's just my take on it. ^_^
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
10979 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2013 :  19:12:09  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo

I don't want to derail this conversation about the origins of Myrkul, I'm enjoying it too much.

But the idea put forward that Myrkul was Trebbe or otherwise was alive during the time of Netheril comes from an emphasis on that "Created by Myrkul" sentence in VGtatM. Myrkul *RE*created the Crown of Horns after Khelben smashed it. New look and everything.

In N:EoM, the Crown was made as a powerful, sentient necromantic magical item.



That's one interpretation. Remember, this crown of horns has been "rebuilt" several times in its history. So, why wouldn't it simply say Myrkul rebuilt it. There's a couple wordings within VGtatM that hint that Myrkul was involved in the original creation and not just in "rebuilding" it. For instance, it states that the reason Myrkul went into the item is that it was a major source of his own power remaining in the realms.

The Crown of Horns is a major artifact of the Realms, and legends give
it a prominent role in Netheril#146;s downfall. Created by Myrkul, the god
of the dead, the Crown of Horns
was lost for centuries after the dissolution of the Netherese empire until found by Laeral Silverhand and the Nine.

After its destruction, Khelben collected the many shards of the
Crown of Horns and carefully stored them within Blackstaff Tower for
safekeeping (and to prevent the priesthood of Myrkul from gaining
any power from it
). With Myrkul#146;s destruction during the Time of
Troubles, Khelben and Laeral thought the threat of the Crown was
over. However, when his avatar was slain, Myrkul used his lingering
power to send his mind toward the greatest remaining concentration
of his power in the Realms.
Given his proximity to Blackstaff Tower,
his essence forced its way into Khelben#146;s vault where the Crown of
Horns lay in pieces.

his last vestiges of energy slowly restored his unholy artifact to contain his personality and memories.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 20 Sep 2013 :  20:06:25  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps Myrkul himself wasn't part of the creation of the Crown of Horns -- but he later, on his path to divinity, absorbed/subsumed the original entity (Proto-Myrkul, if you will) who was part of the artifact's creation.

Going that way, Myrkul would have the knowledge and memories of Proto-Myrkul, and since Proto-Myrkul is now part of Myrkul, it's pretty much the same thing as having been the original creator.

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sleyvas
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USA
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Posted - 21 Sep 2013 :  16:21:36  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
However, so far, all canon linkages point to Myrkul (not as a deity) being around to create the Crown of Horns prior to -2267 DR. There are also now established canon linkages of Myrkul as "Myrkul Bey al-Kursi, Crown Prince of Murghôm" based on a 4th edition dungeon adventure. This COULD imply that Murghom has been around since prior to -2267 DR (almost 200 years after the Imaskari empire fell in -2488 DR, so it would kind of fit given that the Murghomi people are Mulan... perhaps this was the initial empire of the Mulan people before Mulhorand formed later).

You know, I never really thought about it until now. If Myrkul was of the royal blood of Murghom.... is there a chance Myrkul was actually an incarnation of one of the deities (i.e. the mortal born presence of the deity on Toril)? It wouldn't necessarily be a Mulhorandi deity. It could be an Untheric deity (and possibly even one of the now dead Untheric gods such as Inanna, Girru, Ki, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, or Utu who died during the Orcgate wars in -1071 DR). In fact, it would be especially appropriate if he had been an incarnation of Nergal (the Untheric deity of the land of the dead). If this were the case, IF the crown of Horns were an artifact created by an earlier incarnation of Nergal, there definitely might be some linkages between them and Myrkul, since both were extensions of their deity.... and it could explain the later "misinterpretation" by sages that Myrkul created the crown of horns. Or we could simply go with Myrkul was the intial creator of the artifact as written.

I'm really liking the idea that Myrkul was an incarnation of Nergal. I think I'm going to start another thread to discuss the general idea and see if a new title might bring people to bring out hidden canon lore that others might not think about.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Venomus
Acolyte

Poland
13 Posts

Posted - 29 Jan 2014 :  20:33:56  Show Profile Send Venomus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
<Casts animate dead on the conversation>

I must admit I've never before heard Myrkul last name - probably because of my antipathy for 4th edition lore...

I've always presumed Myrkul was from Netheril, probably Larloch enclave (Jiksidur) which always dabbled heavily in necromancy.
In my compaign I've even established that Myrkul and ol' Laroch knew eachother (which could be true - he could even be the one that teached Myrkul the joy of necromancy and all that jazz).

Why Myrkul left Netheril? Was he cast out for commiting some hideous experiments? Wanted to achive eternal life(wink, wink), or felt that after Larloch vanished, the empire have nothing interesting to teach him in terms of power?
Why Larloch (accordingly to FR wiki)seeks the Crown of Horns? Does he feel some kind of kinship with his former student and wishes to help in his ressurection or mayby quite the opposite?

My presumtions are influenced by a recent comeback of <spoilers!> Bhaal. I've heard that Myrkul was also be brought back in D&D Next, is that true?

"Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient be sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me." - Myrkul

Edited by - Venomus on 29 Jan 2014 20:42:29
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The Arcanamach
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Posted - 29 Jan 2014 :  20:44:19  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All of the gods are coming back Venomus. As for Myrkul's origins I believe it's canon that he 'came from the east' and so the best speculation is that he was a prince of Murghom. As for Larloch wanting the Crown of Horns that one is easy...he wants power over a god (and a god with power over the undead at that). Cheers.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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Venomus
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Posted - 29 Jan 2014 :  21:17:00  Show Profile Send Venomus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, it is kinda obvious but... isn't it too obvious for such a powerful player as Larloch?

C'mon don't tell me You all don't want this to be a little more sophisticated and behind the scenes that "Yup, imma just gonna take that crown and become a god, what the heck".
If that old sack of bones wanted to become a god he had at least a few opportunities in the last +/- 2,000 years, right?

"Know me and fear me. My embrace is for all and is patient be sure. The dead can always find you. My hand is everywhere - there is no door I cannot pass, nor guardian who can withstand me." - Myrkul

Edited by - Venomus on 29 Jan 2014 21:19:13
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 29 Jan 2014 :  22:29:58  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't recall anything saying Larloch was interested in the Crown of Horns... But I'd expect his interest in it to be related to the undead the Crown can create, or perhaps to learn more about undeath in general from the former god of the undead that is in the Crown... It's also possible he wants to know more about matters divine, for his own purposes, and again thinks a fallen deity would be a good source of info.

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The Arcanamach
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Posted - 29 Jan 2014 :  23:11:04  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't say he wanted to become a god...I said he would want power over a god. And no one said anything Larloch did was obvious. We've conjectured many things about Larloch on this site...and I don't recall anyone ever stating or alluding to Larloch being that transparent.

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Markustay
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Posted - 07 Nov 2014 :  23:06:34  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*** Raises scroll again ***

i know this has been discussed before, but since I can't find the exact scroll I'll ask here, since everything in this scroll has bearing on what I am trying to figure out.

In the three super-modules that came out at the end of 3e, we find out that Shar was behind it all - that she was the one that somehow manipulated Karsus into casting that spell and causing the Weave to collapse (presumably to steal-back her lost half... and perhaps the other half as well). I still think she succeeded with hers - I think thats when the Shadow-Weave first got created.

Does anyone know exactly where it states that? That Shar was the one manipulating Karsus and the events in Netheril? I have the three modules in-question, but they are in an unsearchable format, and I have never read through them from end-to-end, only bits people have pointed out to me. So rather then me reading all three of them right now to find one piece of information, can anyone (more familiar with those adventures) please point me in the right direction?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2014 00:58:54
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Demzer
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Posted - 08 Nov 2014 :  09:37:13  Show Profile Send Demzer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh! My first thread raised from the dead again!

Markustay, are you sure it was in the three supermodules? All i could find is just a hint, in Anauroch: the Empire of Shade, page 63, third bullet-point paragraph.
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hashimashadoo
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Posted - 08 Nov 2014 :  09:47:43  Show Profile  Visit hashimashadoo's Homepage Send hashimashadoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's the only reference to it I could find as well.

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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Nov 2014 :  14:03:09  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, that must be it then. I never double-checked people when they referenced that bit of lore (my assumption always being that if someone IS providing a reference, then it must be there).

It sounds pretty cut-and-dry. I am sure folks will argue that Auguthra was mad and it was "just her belief", but thats not what it says. Its says, "It hints at the involvement of an archwizard named Karsus". The 'it' being the Black Cronology itself, and not Auguthra's musings.

And yes, Shar could lie, blah blah, blah... and you can make yourself feel better by 'interpreting' it anyway you want, but at the end of the day, we all know precisely what the designer who wrote it intended. Thus far, the Black Chronology has proven true.

The god Shar was manipulating events in such a way that Mystryl died and the Weave collapsed. It is only after Mystra comes into being and the new Weave is created that we hear about a 'Shadow Weave' (which isn't evidence that it didn't already exist, but it does seem like the appropriate moment for Shar to have dug her fingers into the half of Mystryl that belonged to her).

Now, looking at other events, like the ToT and the spellplague - it all seems to be linked. Not only does Shar manipulate mortals to accomplish her goals, but deities as well.

Hmmmm... you ever feel like you are purposely 'raising your voice' during a conversation, just so others will hear? Yeah... its like THAT.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 08 Nov 2014 :  14:27:27  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The fact that it says "she believed" means it is not a definite fact. It could be true, but there is room for it to be wrong. I think if the designer who wrote it intended for it to be cut and dried with only one possible interpretation, a more definitive phrase would have been used.

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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Nov 2014 :  15:03:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I knew you'd be along to let us know that YOUR interpretation of canon is the correct one.

Shall I kiss your ring now, oh tyrannical one?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 08 Nov 2014 :  15:16:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I knew you'd be along to let us know that YOUR interpretation of canon is the correct one.

Shall I kiss your ring now, oh tyrannical one?



Ah, there we go. I was expecting a reaction like this.

Tell me, how is me saying that there is room for interpretation tyrannical? Especially when I said your interpretation could be correct?

And how is your phrasing less tyrannical?

quote:
and you can make yourself feel better by 'interpreting' it anyway you want, but at the end of the day, we all know precisely what the designer who wrote it intended.


So, in other words, no matter what is written, you are saying your interpretation is the correct one. And yet, I'm the tyrant.

Oh, and this?

quote:
It sounds pretty cut-and-dry. I am sure folks will argue that Auguthra was mad and it was "just her belief", but thats not what it says.


Actually, it explicitly says that. Page 63 of that source, bolding mine:

quote:
Augratha hypothesized that these secrets and this curse were the work of the primordial deity of the night, Shar. She believed that Shar revealed this Black Chronology in hopes of bringing about the destruction of the Weave and the goddess Mystryl.


I'm getting really tired of being attacked every time I even imply that you might not be correct on something.

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Markustay
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Posted - 08 Nov 2014 :  16:25:21  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I feel the same way. Have you ever gone back through old threads and saw how many times you've posted IMMEDIATELY after me? The difference is, I don't jump all over people every time my interpretation doesn't agree with theirs.

You think I didn't agree with others here that everything Xal said was utter nonsense? However, I chose to avoid those threads because this site should be about everyone having fun with the Realms, whatever version they happen to think it is. If I find myself unable to be helpful (and thats precisely what happened with his threads - I really couldn't write a positive post), I just didn't post.

I've seen this time and again, both here and at the WotC site (but it is much worse here) - that if a poster isn't playing the Realms the way the grognards think it should be, they get attacked, repeatedly, until they just leave. This is a very unfriendly site unless you happen to agree with the status-quo. In fact, this site was an example sited as to the reasons behind the 4e decisions - to end those 'feelings of entitlement'. I love the Realms dearly (which is the only reason why I stick around), but this whole attitude of 'doing it right' has to stop. Just about everything is open to interpretation (especially since 4e chose to just throw a lot of canon right out the window). I just wanted to make sure EVERYONE was aware that the Black Chronology SAYS that Shar was involved with what happened in Netheril (on some level - how much is definitely open to interpretation, as it was to Augratha's). What Augratha thought or didn't think has no bearing on what the book said - Augratha is not an 'it' (unless you are trying to say that the designer that wrote that bit did indeed mean Augratha was an 'it').

"It hints at the involvement of an archwizard named Karsus"

It doesn't say "an archwizard, which she had reasoned to be Karsus". It says Karsus. The BOOK - which has thus-far been correct about everything else - said Karsus. The 'hinted at' part refers to how much involvement she my have had (duped, 'working for', a 'Chosen of...', "found a scroll on the ground with that spell on it that she left there", etc, etc - thats the ONLY part open to interpretation. The fact is, Shar was somehow involved with the fall of Nethril. We just don't know to what extent.

And sadly, if you only knew the reasons WHY I posted this here and went looking for that bit of lore, I am certain you'd be on my side, and thats all I can say about that.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2014 16:29:04
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