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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 14:52:31
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Recently another scribe asked the question of why is Kossuth so popular in Thay. I'd also at one point asked Ed with no response whether we might see a timeline of pantheons (even if not totally nailed down with dates). These things brought back to the surface a question that's been festering in the back of my mind. I'd like to put forth some ideas, and please other scribes show me the holes in the theory, as I'm sure there's some realmslore out there that I'm unaware of.
We know there was a pantheon that the Talfir people worshipped, the Netherese people had their own pantheon, the Rus seemed to worship their own deities which would lean towards Norse or Finnish. However, in the Unapproachable East, its hinted that they worshipped Archfey and possibly Primordials, with the people of Narfell worshipping demons. Even the ancient Geomancer Empire in Zakhara worshipped Grumbar... another primordial. Given that the people of Zakhara have such a huge pantheon... is there a chance that they may all be actually primordial and/or Fey princes. So, prior to the fall of Narfell/Raumathar were there any "gods" worshipped in the area? We know that the Mulan pantheon had arrived, but they had not extended overmuch into the Unapproachable East area. Aglarond was still pretty much wild. Tethyr was also still small city states. Rashemen to this day seems to worship both gods and fey. The formation of Impiltur brought the western deities into the Northern half of the Unapproachable East and the Mulhorandi and Untheric empires slowly brought it into the southern half before being rebuffed. We then had the dark three rise up and become popular in the Unapproachable East as possibly some of the first to break into the area.
I know that in 722 DR we had the Great Druid of Leth become the Nentyarch of Dun-Tharos/Rawlinswood. Do we even know who he worshipped (my first assumption is is Silvanus, but it could be an alias of an ancient Yuir God like Relkath of the Infinite Branches who was later subsumed by Rillifane Ralathil) ?
722 DR - The Great Druid of Leth claims the ancient title of Nentyarch and raises a tree-fortress over the tainted ruins of Dun-Tharos in Narfell.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 15:26:13
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I would imagine that Zakhara would have the same type of mix that Faerūn does - deities, archfiends (and possibly arch-celestials), primordials, and even a few archfey and Elemental (Djin) lords.
Following on other similar threads/lines-of-thought, I feel that anything that is not a deity (and yet still 'a god' by someone's reckoning) needs sponsorship/partnership with a deity to access the power available from worship.
Thus, Akadi probably partners with Talos in the Wastes (where he/she is known as 'Teylas'), and they "split the profits" from that.
Arch Devils probably share their worship with Asmodeus (especially since now we know he is god) - he's got kind of a unique thing going on there (I have brand new theory about that one) - but as far as the Demon Lords are concerned, I suppose they have to find willing evil gods to partner with to access that power.
Elder Evils have a totally different (alien) thing going on - its probably psionically based, and not (divine) magic at all. They basically reach into someone's brain, flick a few switches, and "wallah", simulated 'granted spells' (which aren't spells at all - they are powers, but the lines begin to blur).
In my other musings/theories, I have it where Danu is the only 'true deity' amongst the Archfey, and everything gets channeled through her (so ALL fey are a type of divine caster, in a way).
Getting back to the topic - Fate is an interesting and enigmatic being, and has even been called an 'Overpower' in lore before, which would indicate that she may be a primordial.
Going further east, I think the Kara-Tur (and Malatra) panthoens have a large mix of archfey in their group (those 'local spirits'), as well as 'favored souls' (after death, in which case they are called 'proxies'), which are really just ancestor-worship demi-powers (exarchs). I think Ao is actually the Celestial Emperor - thats just his name over there. Its just what Asian religions call the overpower in charge of a sphere (so it may be a different being in each sphere).
Maztica has also been called an 'overpower', but thats an easy fix now that we have primordials. If Maztica is just an aspect of Chauntea, and chauntea is a primordial (as he should be), then I think it all makes sense.
... although... I never really cared for Chauntea as a primorial, nor the way they combined him with 'the Earthmother'. Ergo, in my homebrew stuff, I say that 'The earthmother' is an ancient (primordial) spirit, and that Chauntea is an aspect of her, but one that has been merged with a human soul (the same way Mystra is). Thus, Chauntea is a deity, and The Earthmother can channel her energies through him (and receive power from worship). She probably has several of these 'local agents' in various pantheons (so Maztica could also be one). This 'fix' also doesn't really step on the toes of previous (WoL&D) lore, because if Chauntea is a deity merged with an avatar of The earthmother, then Chantea IS, in essence, the Eartmother (so the story about the War of Light & Darkness still works - I just pulled some verbal sleight-of-hand). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 17:27:06
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Hmmmm, there is no established lore that requires Primordials and/or Archfey and/or fiends to partner with a deity to benefit from worship. I'd be reticent to say that it is a requirement, particularly with the line of questioning that I'm pondering. Note, I don't have an end goal here... I'm just wondering, would it be possible that the "gods" were pretty much outside of the unapproachable east / great wastes, etc... all the way down possibly to Zakhara (essentially, the middle of Merrobouros), but that there were Pantheons of gods in the west and in Kara-Tur and in Maztica and in the southlands like the Great Rift/Luiren where racial pantheons were rising up. Would it be possible that the population in these central areas actually didn't know of godly worship at all until their communities began to connect with those further west? Or do we have realmslore that places certain gods as interacting in these areas prior to this? I wonder about this because the "seven lost gods" were all supposedly primordials, and there's maybe a dozen other beings who were in the realms before the spellplague who were also primordials..... so Ao didn't exactly split the worlds as evenly as has been described even according to 4E lore. So, what if the understanding for why he twinned the world was incorrect? What if he just needed to separate out the gods and primordial who were threatening the world.... but there were actually gods also sent to Abeir... just they were either killed off OR their worship is confined to unusual areas that the majority of Abeir don't know about. After all, they could be on a continent that the people of Abeir just haven't interacted with.
On the idea of Fate being an Overpower and/or Primordial, its a possibility. However, I don't see Fate as being elementally oriented, so I'd hate to say primordial. However, as some kind of Archfey or being of time... that's a possibility. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2013 : 19:33:50
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I haven't been privy to anything 4e since the 1st few months it came out, back when I was a regular on the WotC boards. However...
from what was said back then, at the beginning, primordials cannot grant spells, and gain no benefit from worship. Neither can arch-anything else. Only deities can do this.
What was broadened by our (fanbase) interpretation was that 'god' meant anything higher then mortal on the cosmic scale (although, arguably, there are quite a few mortals who can hand a god their arse). That means that the lines get blurred a bit when it comes to the arch-whatevers (who can become exarchs - I guess thats where the 'ex' in Exarch comes from - but that means they still have a divine 'sponsor'.) Anything other then deities - but still gods - need to have have access to the (theoretical) 'Epic Divinity Feat'*, either through partnering with a deity, or gaining the Feat itself (which requires - from everything we've seen - the joining of a human soul to the power who wishes divinity).
*I forget exactly which designer put this forth, but I recall he called it 'the potted plant feat' in regards to what mortals may worship. This did not cover the gods themselves - only mortals, but it was a work-around for the limitations imposed by the 4e rules (because, strangely, mortals CAN get spells from whatever they damn please, including a potted plant!) This does not cover what a 'power' gets out of a non-divine worship scenario (which is why we came up with the idea of sponsorship, which is based upon how exarchs already work). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Sep 2013 19:34:51 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2013 : 00:28:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I forget exactly which designer put this forth, but I recall he called it 'the potted plant feat' in regards to what mortals may worship.
Eric Boyd came up with that, don't remember exactly where.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2013 : 03:49:36
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Ok, so that proves of interest then. It explains why Auril is both an Archfey and a goddess. So, as I'm seeing it here, the perhaps the "gods" are something entirely different with a "god" template attached to them such that they benefit from worship. This would kind of explain beings like the Seldarine Pantheon, etc... So, what I'm hearing here is that there were probably some primordials who obtained the "god template" and weren't forced over to Abeir. There were also a few remaining primordials who didn't obtain such (like the Chaos Hound). So, we have an idea now that the Archfey and Primordials who answer prayers are beings with a "god template/feat"... but what are the beings that we call traditional gods.
Of course, we still haven't gotten to the core question though that I was asking... is there any lore of pantheonic type gods in the Unapproachable East area say prior to the fall of Narfell/Raumathar? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2013 : 13:27:22
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| The traditional Gods are now called Estevar I believe. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2013 : 13:46:14
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Actually, 'god' could apply to anything - its a catch-all for 'those planer beings who have uber-power', which, to a normal mortal commoner could be a fairly low-level fiend. Its really a matter of perception; the Imaskari refused to acknowledge 'gods' simply because many of them were just as powerful as the lower-tiered ones, so the term 'god' is relative.
'Deity' is something specific - it is a template or feat which gets attached to a being, which creates a two-way conduit for power. One prerequisite seems to be a mortal soul (spirit, whatever). It is NOT, however, the being itself, which could be almost anything. Think of it this way - a Red Wizard isn't of the 'Red Wizard' race - he is a human with a Template. Theoretically, a dwarf, elf, or whatever can become a red Wizard as well. The same is true of deities.
But here's something interesting - I just came across the term Estelar in regards to deities in the Gontal article. It actually says Estelar (gods), but then mentions the Dawn Titans separately, so my interpretation of that is that Estelar is really referring to 'deities' (those beings that can gain power from worship and grant spells to their clergy). Thats a fairly early article in the 4e run - probably an excerpt from the FRCG that got cut - so its easy to reinterpret certain things in hindsight.
So now we got a new term, and I happen to need a term for a certain something - Estelar are actually ascended mortals! The majority of deities that we know of are ascended mortals - very few other types of beings are willing to make that mortal connection to gain power through worship (because its a two-way street). In fact, I am of the opinion that only mortals are supposed to be deities, but certain powers (primordials, arch-fiends, etc) have found work-arounds (partnering, or absorbing a mortal soul within themselves). Estelar is not really a new concept - its the old 'Immortals' concept from basic D&D - but I like it better because the term 'immortal' has other meanings as well. Its also not precisely the same thing as an exarch, although most Estelar probably begin as exarchs (except in rare cases when Ao smokes crack and makes dweebs like Cyric greater gods). So anyone can be an exarch, just like anyone can (eventually) be a full deity, but the default setting is 'ascended mortal', which is what most of them are.
So there are plenty of 'gods', but most are enigmatic beings who do not care about religion and are very aloof in regards to the mortal world. Only deities (from wherever they hale) bother with the 'mortal theater'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 15:52:42
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I can see where you're going, but so far there's nothing to back this up in canon lore that "all Estelar are ascended mortal beings". I'd like to further this discussion, because this is kind of getting around my original question to a degree. There's been many hints that ascended mortals that ascend under their own power have their ascensions tied to artifacts (I think Wooly at one point posited that Mystra is an artifact tied to a human soul, and it was intimated back that he was getting very close to a truth). I've believed similar things may have occurred with Bane (Black Lord's Cloak), Myrkul (Crown of Horns), Velsharoon/Mellifleur (I've posited that Velsharoon used one of Mellifleur's phylacteries). It would make sense that for some deity's their physical manifestation (moon, sun, Toril) serves as this "artifact". It doesn't appear though that such is necessarily the case for Ao-raised Mortals to deity-hood (the only such I can think of being Midnight, Cyric, and Kelemvor... possibly Finder... and I can't recall what Kelemvor did to take death from Cyric at this second).
On the topic of all the Estelar being ascended mortals though, if these Estelar were around prior to life being formed in Toril, were they interlopers who ascended in other Crystal Spheres? The Primordials seem to be naturally occurring beings that are created outside Ao's control (outside Toril's crystal sphere and tied to the elemental planes). So, his ability to twin his world and trap many primordials in it sounds like actually a trap on the part of Ao on these beings who were trying to come in from outside and muck with his creation. It occurs to me, maybe Ao is biased against the primordials... and maybe, just maybe, they can actually be a threat to him.
Anyway, just throwing out some free-form thoughts here. I think I've got an answer to my original question. It looks like there is no canon instances of "Estelar" being active in the areas roughly west of the Inner Sea and into the Eastern Wastes, but there are documented instances of Primordials/Dawn Titans and Archfey (if the Yuir deities can be considered such). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 16:36:54
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Ah, okay... I see the problem here. My musings are always tied to all my other theories, and without being able to see inside my head (and risking madness  ), people can't really understand the links I see (because most of those links are homebrew... but always based on some sort of canon).
In this instance, I still cling to my 'One World' (True World, First world, etc) theory, wherein the Prime Material was just one vast plane that had been shattered by the godwar. All that remains of that sundered world is its reflection in the Feywild, and its dark shadow in the Shadowfel. Unlike the Prime Material, those planes still have solid (or at least semi-solid) matter between the space where the crystal spheres lie. In other words, they have no phlogiston, which is why you can use them as transitive planes to reach other prime worlds.
The first deities - and probably the most powerful - came from the Creator races (and I also happen to think there were proto-creator races as well, like the aboleths, dragons, Jotun (giants), etc). The last - and perhaps greatest - of the Creator races was Mankind, and their great civilization was Blackmoor (which is why we see traces of it on so many worlds - it existed before the Sundering). There are a few truly ancient Estalar (ascended mortals/immortals), and most of those have gone on to become the heads of pantheons ('High God', a tier I place between Overgods and greater deities... almost like a demi-Overgod). From world-to-world the names can change, and the make-up of the various pantheons different, but it all started with a group of core gods from that first world (and the oldest Earth pantheons would represent ascended mortals from those pre-Sundering cultures, and thats why we see them on so many worlds).
Eventually, as a world matures, it usually shakes-out to just one pantheon (like how FR has its Faerūnian Pantheon), which can actually be made of bits and pieces of dozens of other pantheons (from other spheres). The truth is that those pantheons (like the ones we see in Deities & Demigods) aren't 'correct' either - those are just the rosters we are most familiar with here on Earth (think of pantheons as professional sports teams - they 'trade players' sometimes). There could be another world with a pantheon where Zeus rules over a group of gods made-up of Loki, Ra, Oghma, Yen-Wang-Yeh, Kali, Yondalla, Thor, Hanali Celanil, Moradin, Set, etc, etc... and a bunch of 'native' Estalar, and that would be the default pantheon for their world (and they would think our roster{s} equally strange). And those deities need not even have the same portfolios they have in other Crystal spheres (such is the case with FR's Tyr, as opposed to RW Tyr).
So, YES, some deities did pre-exist the known worlds... but only because they are what remains of those first pantheons from the True World. The whole reason why that original world (plane) got shattered in the first place is because of the rise of the Estalar - many primordials grew jealous and covetous of their power. They created the mortal races (which were actually immortal before death was created), and never expected members of them to become so mighty. All of that jibes with the 4e lore, most previous lore (that wasn't already over-written by 4e lore), and also what little we know of 5e lore (The Sundering).
As I have said before, almost 100% homebrew, but it sidesteps a lot of canon issues and helps explain them (so my lore doesn't so much 'replace' existing canon, as it does augment it). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Sep 2013 18:47:03 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 16:50:24
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When mortals started ascending back at the end of 1E, I started thinking of many deities as mortals holding "offices" of a sort. Interestingly, a few years later we got the first Piers Anthony novel in his Incarnations of Immortality series which had humans taking over the positions of the "gods" (in his world) when those beings either died, were killed, or wanted to move on. Each of Anthony's incarnations had a major artifact (if I recall correctly) associated with their office.
Mystra's position certainly seems to be an "office" in this sense, though I think there are also some big differences between Faerunian deities and Anthony's Incarnations. In most real world myths, gods are also often associated with a primary tool or artifact. Odin with runes, Thor with a hammer, the Fates with a spindle/distaff, Zeus with a shield, Ares with a sword, and so forth. I always thought it was interesting that many Faerunian deities never were paired with a tool or artifact.
Interestingly, Cyric might be associated with Godsbane. When he broke the sword, it freed Kelemvor and opened Cyric to spiritual attack. Did Mask "stack the deck" with Cyric, in the sense that Cyric's power and position were intimately tied in some way to his sword? After he destroyed the sword, it seems that Cyric's been on a continual downslide in terms of power. And AO had to know Mask was the sword, yes? Perhaps his appointment of Cyric was just another method to "teach the gods their place" and never intended him to be a long-lasting deity. Makes one think!
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 06 Sep 2013 16:52:42 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 16:57:27
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The Al-Qadim setting does make mention of an ancient gods war battled between the gen ruled north and the godly lands in the south. The gods, who are now known as the Nine Travellers, physically abandoned their lands at the aftermath of the conflict.
I have speculated that these Nine Travellers are the same Immortal Travellers of the upper echelon of the Celestial Bureaucracy, and are known all over Toril in many aliases. I suspect most greater human estelar in the faerunian pantheon are (or were once part) of this group of nine travellers; them likely being Shar, Selune, Tempus, Waukeen, Helm, Oghma, Tymora, Shaundakul/Valkyr and Lathander/Amaunator. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 17:30:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The Al-Qadim setting does make mention of an ancient gods war battled between the gen ruled north and the godly lands in the south. The gods, who are now known as the Nine Travellers, physically abandoned their lands at the aftermath of the conflict.
I have speculated that these Nine Travellers are the same Immortal Travellers of the upper echelon of the Celestial Bureaucracy, and are known all over Toril in many aliases. I suspect most greater human estelar in the faerunian pantheon are (or were once part) of this group of nine travellers; them likely being Shar, Selune, Tempus, Waukeen, Helm, Oghma, Tymora, Shaundakul/Valkyr and Lathander/Amaunator.
REALLY??? Any chance you can site a source? Being that Al-Qadim is a Toril resource, that could prove very interesting given that the gen most likely can be tied to the primordials. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 18:06:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
When mortals started ascending back at the end of 1E, I started thinking of many deities as mortals holding "offices" of a sort. Interestingly, a few years later we got the first Piers Anthony novel in his Incarnations of Immortality series which had humans taking over the positions of the "gods" (in his world) when those beings either died, were killed, or wanted to move on. Each of Anthony's incarnations had a major artifact (if I recall correctly) associated with their office.
Mystra's position certainly seems to be an "office" in this sense, though I think there are also some big differences between Faerunian deities and Anthony's Incarnations. In most real world myths, gods are also often associated with a primary tool or artifact. Odin with runes, Thor with a hammer, the Fates with a spindle/distaff, Zeus with a shield, Ares with a sword, and so forth. I always thought it was interesting that many Faerunian deities never were paired with a tool or artifact.
Interestingly, Cyric might be associated with Godsbane. When he broke the sword, it freed Kelemvor and opened Cyric to spiritual attack. Did Mask "stack the deck" with Cyric, in the sense that Cyric's power and position were intimately tied in some way to his sword? After he destroyed the sword, it seems that Cyric's been on a continual downslide in terms of power. And AO had to know Mask was the sword, yes? Perhaps his appointment of Cyric was just another method to "teach the gods their place" and never intended him to be a long-lasting deity. Makes one think!
Didn't Mask immediately lose power to Cyric when Godsbane was broken? I seem to recall that Mask was weakened, and that he lost Intrigue to Cyric. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 18:14:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
When mortals started ascending back at the end of 1E, I started thinking of many deities as mortals holding "offices" of a sort. Interestingly, a few years later we got the first Piers Anthony novel in his Incarnations of Immortality series which had humans taking over the positions of the "gods" (in his world) when those beings either died, were killed, or wanted to move on. Each of Anthony's incarnations had a major artifact (if I recall correctly) associated with their office.
Mystra's position certainly seems to be an "office" in this sense, though I think there are also some big differences between Faerunian deities and Anthony's Incarnations. In most real world myths, gods are also often associated with a primary tool or artifact. Odin with runes, Thor with a hammer, the Fates with a spindle/distaff, Zeus with a shield, Ares with a sword, and so forth. I always thought it was interesting that many Faerunian deities never were paired with a tool or artifact.
Interestingly, Cyric might be associated with Godsbane. When he broke the sword, it freed Kelemvor and opened Cyric to spiritual attack. Did Mask "stack the deck" with Cyric, in the sense that Cyric's power and position were intimately tied in some way to his sword? After he destroyed the sword, it seems that Cyric's been on a continual downslide in terms of power. And AO had to know Mask was the sword, yes? Perhaps his appointment of Cyric was just another method to "teach the gods their place" and never intended him to be a long-lasting deity. Makes one think!
Didn't Mask immediately lose power to Cyric when Godsbane was broken? I seem to recall that Mask was weakened, and that he lost Intrigue to Cyric.
Yes, he gained Mask's minor portfolio in that act, but he lost a major portfolio and office ("god of the dead").
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 18:16:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The Al-Qadim setting does make mention of an ancient gods war battled between the gen ruled north and the godly lands in the south. The gods, who are now known as the Nine Travellers, physically abandoned their lands at the aftermath of the conflict.
I have speculated that these Nine Travellers are the same Immortal Travellers of the upper echelon of the Celestial Bureaucracy, and are known all over Toril in many aliases. I suspect most greater human estelar in the faerunian pantheon are (or were once part) of this group of nine travellers; them likely being Shar, Selune, Tempus, Waukeen, Helm, Oghma, Tymora, Shaundakul/Valkyr and Lathander/Amaunator.
You know, just based upon what's written here... this kind of sounds like Al-Qadim is another portion of Abeir that possibly transitted back to the realms at some point. If the gods were seen to flee whenever the worlds were twinned, it could explain the myth. Of course, it may fall apart after reading the whole story. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2013 : 18:45:02
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The Al-Qadim setting does make mention of an ancient gods war battled between the gen ruled north and the godly lands in the south. The gods, who are now known as the Nine Travellers, physically abandoned their lands at the aftermath of the conflict.
I have speculated that these Nine Travellers are the same Immortal Travellers of the upper echelon of the Celestial Bureaucracy, and are known all over Toril in many aliases. I suspect most greater human estelar in the faerunian pantheon are (or were once part) of this group of nine travellers; them likely being Shar, Selune, Tempus, Waukeen, Helm, Oghma, Tymora, Shaundakul/Valkyr and Lathander/Amaunator.
REALLY??? Any chance you can site a source? Being that Al-Qadim is a Toril resource, that could prove very interesting given that the gen most likely can be tied to the primordials.
Good stuff - I was unaware that Al-Qadim had folklore about the Nine Travelers (and they also go by that same name in the Kara-Tur).
Maybe these Nine Travelers are some sort of 'starter pantheon' for worlds (until they establish their own).
I have also theorized an ancient war between the Rakshasa and Dgen in Zakhara, and then the Dgen and humans much later (so each held the sub-continent for a time). The last human empire (before the current one) had a female Grand Caliph, who's wars with the gen spilled over into the Utter east (hence that tale in the GHotR). She was the last Caliph of that era, and has been forgotten about in the current era (because canon Zakharan history states there has been NO female caliphs). Because most of Zakhara's history is word-of-mouth, and they have had several eras (read: RSE's), each previous era is mostly forgotten except in a few obscure legends. All of this, as I said, is THEORY on my part.
Connecting the Dgen to the primordials I have always excepted as a given - they are both elemental creatures (but the primordials are like unto gods to the regular noble Gen). Its just a matter of power difference, just as genies are vastly greater then regular elementals (which in my homebrew musings are just bits of prime material infused - temporarily - with a Jen... a very minor elemental spirit).
I have also connected parts of Zakhara with Dark Sun, because (also homebrew) I picture Athas as an alternate name for Abeir (thats what it is called in the Tyr region). That part of the world corresponds to Zakhara on Toril.
HEY!  The TYR region? Hmmmmmm... me thinks I have yet another way of connecting things.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Sep 2013 18:47:49 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 00:27:28
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I don't have a copy to check anymore but I believe the myth about the god-genie wars, the travelling nine and the Oracle of Fate is mentioned in the last paragraph of the first chapter in the DM's campaign setting book for Al-Qadim.
The Nine Travellers are a very intriging bunch, who I suspect of standing at the origin of a great deal of myths across human lands in Toril. That these deities have limited power in the Land of Fate is by decree of the Loregiver, the girl the ancient war was fought over. The legend also goes they had vast lush territory where now the Crowded Seas lie, and their domains got blasted into island chains during the war in cataclysmic events causes by the massive amounts of energies unleashed by both parties. Very few shrines and statues survived the forming of the Crowded Seas, and the gods have limited influence on the daily lives of people in the Lands of Fate.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 03:25:06
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| Nice catch, Bladewind. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6647 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 04:51:25
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Some thoughts on the human proto-pantheon of the Unapproachable East on my thread.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 07 Sep 2013 04:52:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2013 : 13:59:51
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| The Nine Travelers/Immortals are also heavily covered in the K-T source Ronin Challenge - apparently that entire region - the Larang Valleys - was created by them... an assignment given them by the Celestial Emperor. In fact, at least one of them still lives there, IIRC. Considering that super module dips way into Malatra (the region with the Vedic pantheon), it seems 'The Nine' are also active in a 3rd sub-setting as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2013 : 03:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Some thoughts on the human proto-pantheon of the Unapproachable East on my thread.
-- George Krashos
recent or will I have to dig? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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When did the Unapproachable East get gods
