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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 13:27:51
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Am I the only one or are there others here hoping the pantheon is "reset" to an old enough "backup" that we get Jergal back?
Or would he even accept his old position? I know he was glad to get rid of it, but maybe he's seen what a mess the last couple of assended mortals have made of things he would like back in the game in a big way?
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 13:39:03
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I like him better as a Seneschal, or perhaps 'death itself' (as opposed to '..of the dead').
Make Kelemvor judge of the dead, and make Myrkul the 'god of the dead' (the afterlife for folks who weren't obedient enough to their own gods). Not even sure if we need a 'god of the dead' in a setting where obedient souls go to their gods, and 'bad folks' go to Hell. Myrkul (or whomever) becomes redundant at that point. In fact, why do evil gods have their own godly domains? It doesn't work at all with the modern concept of a 'Hell' everyone goes to.
If we are getting any type of reset, I would imagine it would get reset to the 1e or even pre-1e (Ed Greenwood) pantheon, not some sort of antideluvian one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Aug 2013 15:07:16 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 13:53:43
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| I like him as senechal as well....I'm just tiring of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 14:22:34
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quote:
assended mortals
On a more serious note. I would work the cosmology this way: Those who properly serve their gods go to them as per normal (Banites to Bane, Sunites to Sune) after being judged by Kelemvor. Those deemed unworthy would go to Myrkul (and the stupid wall would go away or be moved to his domain). Jergal would still serve Kelemvor as he as the last couple of centuries.
The only people going to Hell, at least from the FR, would be those who signed the contract with Asmodeus. I consider Asmo as having his fingers in many worlds, including our own, and thus receives a steady supply of souls that way. I consider him the Christian devil and thus he has a hand in our world...but our accepted cosmology is different and he has greater influence here. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 14:23:03
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| *slaps Walker with a trout for daring to think that one can grow tired of his supreme highness of tyranny!* |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 15:36:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
quote:
assended mortals
I wondered if anyone would catch that
I'm not a big fan of the premise of ascention to godhood by mortals, in case you couldn't tell. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 26 Aug 2013 15:36:58 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 15:42:44
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| I don't mind ascended mortals provided they ascend to demigodhood rather than say, I dunno...taking the portfolios of three gods and ascending straight to greater status. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 16:09:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
*slaps Walker with a trout for daring to think that one can grow tired of his supreme highness of tyranny!*
Mmm....looks like grilled trout is on the menu.
Thanks for the gift Lord Bane. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 16:13:08
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We aim to please. Now bow before the Black Hand and then once feasted, set forth and conquer in the dark lords name!  |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 19:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I'm not a big fan of the premise of ascention to godhood by mortals, in case you couldn't tell.
You must HATE Golarion/Pathfinder then...
Becoming a god in that setting is akin to winning on a gameshow. 
"Just spin the wheel, touch The Starstone, and see what fabulous prizes you've won!" |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 19:18:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I'm not a big fan of the premise of ascention to godhood by mortals, in case you couldn't tell.
You must HATE Golarion/Pathfinder then...
Becoming a god in that setting is akin to winning on a gameshow.
"Just spin the wheel, touch The Starstone, and see what fabulous prizes you've won!"
I'll be very honest here, I don't know anything about Pathfinder/Golarion......and I don't Hate many things (except maybe Xxippuffuuu or whatever that city is and the killer catfish inside it ) but I am no fan of a system where everyone who wants to be a god can. For me it's an easy way out, but to each his own. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 19:19:59
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They even just released (I think) rules for god-like characters in their world - its their new 'Mythic Rules'.
Guess thats what happens when all you have to do is touch a piece of rock and hope for the best.....
EDIT: and to get back on-topic (sort of), every time I see the name of this thread now, I can't help but think, "I have a bad case of the Jergals". |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Aug 2013 19:21:46 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 19:48:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They even just released (I think) rules for god-like characters in their world - its their new 'Mythic Rules'.
Guess thats what happens when all you have to do is touch a piece of rock and hope for the best.....
EDIT: and to get back on-topic (sort of), every time I see the name of this thread now, I can't help but think, "I have a bad case of the Jergals".
I love that Cayden Cailean took the test of the Starstone while drunk and thus doesn't remember how he became a god...
That said, Golarion only has a handful of ascended mortals, so it's not exactly the easiest thing to accomplish. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2013 : 21:43:11
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| Just looked up PF Mythic Adventurers. It's not ready for release yet (says August of next year...at least that's how I read it). It looks quite interesting but doesn't appear to be for the faint of heart. DMs non-Elminster type PCs wont use these rules. Looks like it's going to be the paragon template on roids. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 01:08:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They even just released (I think) rules for god-like characters in their world - its their new 'Mythic Rules'.
Guess thats what happens when all you have to do is touch a piece of rock and hope for the best.....
EDIT: and to get back on-topic (sort of), every time I see the name of this thread now, I can't help but think, "I have a bad case of the Jergals".
They had rules for becoming 'Immortals' in Mystara (as that world does not have 'gods', per se, but it's really just semantics), but it was much lengthier than simply touching a rock. Each Sphere (Time, Matter, Energy, Entropy...may be others I'm not remembering) had a Path down which each aspirant to Immortality needed to progress, and you actually had to work at it.
As to Jergal - by all means. He's interesting, while Kelemvor, in addition to being a square peg, is...well...boring.
- OMH |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 01:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They even just released (I think) rules for god-like characters in their world - its their new 'Mythic Rules'.
Guess thats what happens when all you have to do is touch a piece of rock and hope for the best.....
EDIT: and to get back on-topic (sort of), every time I see the name of this thread now, I can't help but think, "I have a bad case of the Jergals".
They had rules for becoming 'Immortals' in Mystara (as that world does not have 'gods', per se, but it's really just semantics), but it was much lengthier than simply touching a rock. Each Sphere (Time, Matter, Energy, Entropy...may be others I'm not remembering) had a Path down which each aspirant to Immortality needed to progress, and you actually had to work at it.
As to Jergal - by all means. He's interesting, while Kelemvor, in addition to being a square peg, is...well...boring.
- OMH
Nothing has been published about the Test of the Starstone... And there have been a buttload more failures than successes -- so it's likely more than just touching a rock.
Me, I like Kelemvor, and I prefer Jergal in his role of assistant. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 01:51:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They even just released (I think) rules for god-like characters in their world - its their new 'Mythic Rules'.
Guess thats what happens when all you have to do is touch a piece of rock and hope for the best.....
So all you have to do is touch a rock to become a god?
Like kissing the Blarney stone, something along those lines?
Must be some rock.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 01:55:35
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| I like Kelemvor as the god of death. I think we need a neutral god to fill such a role |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 04:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They even just released (I think) rules for god-like characters in their world - its their new 'Mythic Rules'.
Guess thats what happens when all you have to do is touch a piece of rock and hope for the best.....
So all you have to do is touch a rock to become a god?
Like kissing the Blarney stone, something along those lines?
Must be some rock.
I've kissed the Blarney Stone. That thing is not easy to get to! You literally have to lay on your back and slide head-first into a hole, with nothing between you and the ground below but air!
But again, we don't know the details of the Test of the Starstone, only that many, many people have taken it, and only three have succeeded. And that's despite it being there for thousands of years. If only three people have succeeded in something like 4000 years of trying, then it's not that easy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 04:23:39
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I'm happy with what I did with Jergal in my Realms.
I gave Jergal a more active place [rather than the "so-far-off-in-the-faded-background-as-to-almost-be-forgotten" that he occupies in the canon Realms] in my pantheon, because he's still such a cool god!
Basically, I made him the god of time, for a time. As I've speculated in the past [in terms of the official Realms], perhaps the Time porfolio fell into the hands of Jergal in the pre-Spellplague Realms. But after his demotion to "Exarch" status in the 4e Realms, the Time portfolio once again came up for grabs.
At which point, I'm still content to believe much of what Eric Boyd and I discussed about the Time portfolio back in '06. That the Time portfolio remained free largely because, at the time [pun intended, I suppose], it wasn't feasible to be definitive about it, as some future project [nothing proposed at that point in '06] might have called for it. [Or, in other words, maybe Eric wanted to leave room for further development.]
Nowadays, he's simply the "ambassador" for whatever plots the spellweavers are secretly hatching in the Realms. He now relies solely on his status as an ascended spellweaver, as conceived by Eric Boyd. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bhaal
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 04:27:27
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I like Kelemvor as the god of death. I think we need a neutral god to fill such a role
*AHEM*
Excuse me, but I am the God of Death, the Lord of Murder.
Kelemvor is the God of the Dead. Although, really he's just a seat-warmer for my buddy Myrkul, the true God of the Dead.
Mortals always mix those up. Of course, I don't blame them really, the poor things are probably terrorized half the time.
"Waah! I don't wanna get stuck in the Wall and die painfully and slowly over decades!" Heh. Should've thought of that before you died, bub. It's seeing that kind of simultaneous mortal stupidity and arrogance that is probably the most hilarious part of my job. Oh, it's good to be back! 
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 04:34:41
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| Sage can you point to a thread about that or was it a personal discussion? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 05:45:34
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Oh shut it already Bahhl, you were dead for a time, how did it feel to have a god over you.
That which lives by the sword , dies by the sword. An you died by your sword. Who would want to worship a god who died already :P
Baahl The domain of the murdered :P, You can help illimater. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 06:28:28
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Kelemvor seems like the perfect god of the dead to me.
Jergal is no longer evil so he would not be like old Jergal, anyways. I doubt he wants the position anymore, either. It wasn't meant to be. He's fatalistic that way (being the god of fatalism now and all....) |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 07:04:12
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Myself, I prefer Kelemvor. But I think there's a place for Jergal in whatever new divine structure we get (and assuming such is described in D&D Next Realms sourcebooks).
I'm still big on the idea of a Court of the Dead, with Kelemvor sitting on the Throne of Death/Judgement, with Jergal as his chief adviser or perhaps the equivalent of Court Sage, Bhaal his enforcer and Myrkul his emissary. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 09:12:43
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| Emissary in what way? The bringer of death? Or some other manner? |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 10:13:06
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| And i am still against the "Court of the Dead" idea. Bhaal and Myrkul would never play "servants" to Kelemvor. Especially not Myrkul who would rather see Kelemvor vanquished and replaced by him. Kelemvor is opposing undeath while Myrkul is not opposing it, you have two differing aspects which can not lead to a peacefull cooperation and given the history of Bhaal and Myrkul, the god of murder is clearly siding with his old ally than Kelemvor, Jergal picks who ever wins and that means a "court" will never come to pass. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 10:48:40
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I envision Myrkul as that which shows up when you're on death's door. Or when much death is about to happen, those who watch closely can see the signs (for example: the moon obscured behind clouds, if at night) that Old Lord Skull's attention has been drawn to a place and soon the Lord of Bones will collect the spirits of those who are about to die.
I imagine priest of Bhaal making a point of going after adventurers who cheat death and--most importantly--murdering adventurers who've been raised up from the dead. Thus Bhaal enforces the rule that death is final.
A separate portrait featuring Bane ought to have one of Jergal's many hands on his shoulder too, hinting that Jergal may hold influence beyond the Court of the Dead.
I'm a sucker for the deity group portraits concept in the 2E Faiths & Avatars* and I'd dearly love to see a portrait of Kelemvor on the Throne, Bhaal to one side and Myrkul on the other. Jergal stands to Kelemvor's right with one hand on Kelemvor's shoulder and leaning towards him as though to advise him. There are also hands on the shoulders of Bhaal and Myrkul, suggesting Jergal's many arms (like a Spellweaver) and that perhaps Jergal holds more influence in the Court of the Dead than Kelemvor.
*I don't like the art style itself in that book, but the concept is cool and I think you can really get DM's and player's imaginations going if you do deity portraits right. To me that means innuendo, uncertainty and something akin to hidden mysteries that can be found in or suggested by the artwork. For so long the deities have been rigidly defined...let's shake it up a bit!
That and if WotC ever does release a D&D Next Realms deity book, they can perhaps save money by commissioning group portraits instead of paying for solo art pieces, re-using old art or defaulting to holy symbol portraits for deities. Whoever did the portrait of Wee Jas on page 96 of the 3E Deities and Demigods book would be my first choice for artist. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 27 Aug 2013 10:57:06 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 10:55:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
And i am still against the "Court of the Dead" idea. Bhaal and Myrkul would never play "servants" to Kelemvor.
If so, this is all the more reason to put them in the same group.
I understand that WotC wants to put the deities into the background, but much of what you mentioned would be the perfect setup in the mortal world for strife and conflict between priests of differing faiths.
Perhaps a "Court of the Dead" portrait done by followers of Myrkul seats him on the Throne, with Kelemvor cast off to one side and cowering before Bhaal's murderous gaze.
I like the idea of divine strife, so long as it plays out in the mortal world.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 15:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Sage can you point to a thread about that or was it a personal discussion?
I'll have to look it up. [I recall it was a specific discussion about the Time portfolio.] I've got a copy saved in my archives, but I doubt you'll find that useful. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2013 : 15:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
Sage can you point to a thread about that or was it a personal discussion?
I'll have to look it up. [I recall it was a specific discussion about the Time portfolio.] I've got a copy saved in my archives, but I doubt you'll find that useful.
Ah, yes, Arcanamach, here's the original discussion scroll.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jergal, want your old job back?
