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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 13:35:41
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Why have them? Whats their purpose?
You take FR gods - who are really just a bunch of 'loners' with certain alliances - and compare them to the Norse, Greek, or Egyptian Pantheons.
In another thread we are discussing Godly Domains (and Domains ruled hy other folk, like Archfey), and I can't understand the benefit a group of gods would get from having one huge domain (Valhalla, Olympus, etc) over them each having their own?
Do individual deities have their own mini-domains within a domain? In many pantheons, various gods don't get along - do they each have their own 'home turf' within the unified domain? Are these 'heavens' really like giant, cosmic boarding-houses, where there are common areas and private chambers? Could this be where we get some of our folklore regarding 'being invited in' (crossing a threshold of someone else's domain)?
I'd like to hear other people's thoughts on this.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jun 2013 13:38:56
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 17:42:43
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Gods need defences (against Elder Evils, Primordials, Fiends and powerful mortals), and I think its a major motivator for their way of organising themselves.
I always looked at D&D's upper planes as akin to mount Olympus of greek myth. A godly domain usually lies on a infinite plane somewhere far above the skies of the material planes, and most gods have means to look down out of a 'window' onto the material planes below to watch their worshippers.
A pantheon in my view share one such 'window view' amongst eachother. The window basicly is a form of scrying construct linking the domain to the particular geographical locations of their centers of worship on the material plane. It is usually located in the council room of the capital of the ruler of that particular upper plane. All greater gods on Faerun have a personal window (in their domain), and allow their allies it's use. Demi-gods are usually not privvy to its use, and subsequently need to spend a great amount of time on the material planes in their proto-avatar forms.
The celestial bureaucracy is the most bloatedly organised of pantheons, each layer's gods providing and lording over their lessers, but sharing a huge amount of domains at the same time, forming a well isolated but unified whole. Its basicly an organisation that realised the indurable nature of godly domains (they are heavily influenced by their gods actions) needed a system to provide stability, to improve their defence against primordial and antediluvian forces. It's isolation and defensibility are the reason it has existed for so long in its form. Compared to the mainland of Faerun, where deities influence and domains are constantly shifting and interloper deities come and go, the celestial bureaucracy has managed to keep its ground unwavered for thousands of years. As a consequence, real estate is very valuable in the celestial bureaucracy, and very few gods can claim any real power (the Nine Immortals are the rare few that do). |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 21:28:05
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I would agree that gods band together for the same reasons that people do. Defense (and perhaps some offense), specialization made possible through cooperation instead of every individual having to do everything that needs to be done, information sharing, and probably some kind of social life. I'm not sure exactly what the gods' taverns would look like, but I can't imagine them not having some equivalent.
That being said, the FR gods don't seem to have the same cohesion that other pantheons do. The use of the word "pantheon" when you're talking about 50+ gods dwelling in basically *all* of the various planes is kinda silly. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 23 Jun 2013 21:29:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 05:32:16
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quote:
Originally posted by xaeyruudh
The use of the word "pantheon" when you're talking about 50+ gods dwelling in basically *all* of the various planes is kinda silly.
It has nothing to do with where they live, and everything to do with where they have influence.
Even the Greeks didn't have all the deities on Mount Olympus. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 12:28:55
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But when any gods - say Hades or Poseidon - have a problem, they go to Olympus, thus making the Pantheon-Domain like a 'meeting place', of sorts (so the whole domain becomes like 'a tavern').
Which makes me now think that perhaps The Cynosure is the closest thing FR has to an Olympus, or Asgard. If we think of the various FR deities domains as all linked to it, then it becomes a sort of 'Town Square' for the Realms 'Heaven' (and by 'Heaven', I don't mean afterlife, I mean a place where the gods all hang-out).
So, could it be possible there is more to the Cynosure? Could Petitioners of different deities meet in Cynosure? Could there be a multi-denominational (but all FR) village around the place? See, thats the big problem (for me) with the FR 'pantheon' - everyone goes to a different afterlife. In most mythos, folks all go to the same place (but that place is then divided into different regions, for punishment or reward). I would think that in a pantheon set-up, there should be some sort of common-ground for the regular (dead) mortals to interact.
If thats the case, then shouldn't 'The Fugue' be that place? That The Fugue should be the area surrounding Cynosure? Could it simply be the FR gods have never bothered developing anything there (unlike Asgard, Olympus, etc)? Could it be that because FR has never really developed pantheonic churches, there was never a need for a place for people who worshiped the entire pantheon? (which wouldn't make much sense, IMHO, because Ed has repeatedly stated that the majority of Realmsfolk worship at last most of the gods). Is simply that FR deities are covetous and greedy? Moreso then the gods of other pantheons? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jun 2013 12:31:33 |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 12:47:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Is simply that FR deities are covetous and greedy? Moreso then the gods of other pantheons?
That's what Ao seems to think.
Look at Tiamat and Bahamut though. They were present in the draconic pantheon and later the Untheric pantheon.
They both achieved SO MUCH more power in the Untheric pantheon that they poured more and more of their divine essences into their presences in that pantheon so when Tiamat and Marduk were both killed in the Orcgate War, they both lost that power, leaving them with only a tiny sliver (making them archfiend and celestial paragon respectively - not even gods any more).
They both then had to cultivate worshipers in the Faerunian pantheon to regain their respective statuses as true deities.
So maybe pantheons have a direct link to the amount of power a deity CAN cultivate. I mean, compared to dragons, humans, even just the humans in Unther, probably vastly outnumber them. With a few rare exceptions (Dagan of Thunderholme is an example) humanoids don't worship members of the draconic pantheon though. If a deity's relative power level is equal to the amount of worship it recieves, then it's only logical to try and join a pantheon which appeals to a more numerous species.
Pantheons, save the Faerunian one, are divided down roughly racial and/or regional divides.
So take Lolth, she's likely not just a member of the Dark Seldarine pantheon who are worshipped by the drow as she's also worshipped by spiderkind and some demons, which puts her in the Faerunian pantheon too, giving her power that she could have never achieved as Araushnee. |
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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 24 Jun 2013 13:01:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 13:21:07
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Hmmmmm...
Its like having a job with a small company, and then quitting to go to work for a large corporation. You have less personal power and are just a 'mall fish in a large pond', but there is so much more room for advancement. A future-oriented career change...
Thats a good possibility. 
You also made an excellent point - why deities often take-on aliases (with a different racial aspect); they may want to get worship-power from a more prolific source. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 04:26:57
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To an extent, pantheons are ordered by race (elf, dwarf, gnome, etc), and each of these pantheons have a respective domain. But some deities do have a sub-realm within the main one. IIRC, Fenmarel has his only little domain within Arvandor. Likewise, both Lolth and Vhaeraun have a realm within the Abyss, but they are separate.
The idea of a pantheon gets more complicated when you get to the "human" gods, which make up the bulk of the Faeraunian deities. And some demihumans will worship "human" deities (elves have been known to worship Chauntea or Silvanus, because they are nature gods). I suppose a human could worship Moradin or Garl Glittergold, but it would be rare.
So I think it comes down to race, doctrine, and who inhabits which domain. For instance, Tyr, Torm, and Helm all lived in Celestia, and though their profiles differed somewhat, but they are similar enough that they could co-exist in the same domain. But that does differ from racial pantheons, because their doctrines are different, and they don't always see eye-to-eye. So...it ultimately, depends, I guess? I personally like the idea of pantheons. I think it helps to keep it more organized instead of scattering the gods or have them all residing in one domain. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 01:15:33
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| The defining trait of a pantheon is not the particular identities, interests, alliances, and conflicts between the deities. It is only their shared origin. The classic Faerūnian powers are an unequally divided, sporadically competitive, typically presumptuous, and seemingly childish bunch who - like it or not - all originally derived from Ao's essence. The interloping Faerūnian powers may be aspects of powers from foreign (Norse, Greek, Finnish, etc) pantheons who have grown over time - intermingled their particular self-identities and the shapes of their faiths - within the Realms pantheon in an inseparable and holistic manner. The "soap opera of the gods" seen in the Realms (gods changing, dying, being born, being killed, merging, dividing, and stealing or trading powers) is not unique to the Ao's Faerūnians; it is a feature of every mature pantheon, it may even sometimes compel deities (or their aspects or avatars) to move away from their bickering, arrogant, incompetent family of gods in the hopes of being adopted by another. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2013 : 23:15:02
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I think what is important to keep in mind is that Ao's rules inherently create conflict between the deities. This has happened by linking the power of deities to their worshipers, ruling that only one deity above demigod may have the same portfolio, and by linking deities to geographic influence.
The Faerunian Pantheon is nothing more than a collection of deities who happen to be worshiped in the same geographic region of Toril. These deities arrived from many different sources, they are emigrant powers from other worlds, mortals who've ascended to godhood, deities that have been split apart, deities who've merged with other deities, you name it - it's happened. And it's going to continue to happen.
They are not unified like traditional pantheons, because they are not a traditional pantheon. The linked nature of the worship is a direct result of human migration and high levels of trade. Simply put, as humans travel their deities came with them. This inevitably meant that some deities with the same portfolio were brought into conflict. This resulted in divine conflicts, where some deities were killed, absorbed, or significantly changed.
Not all of the Faerunian Deities are known to everyone in Faerun. It's likely that everyone knows who the Greater Deities are, and likely many of the intermediate deities as well. However, the lesser deities and demigods may be completely unknown in large regions of Faerun.
Deities outside of the Faerunian Pantheon may not be known at all, even if they are greater deities within their own pantheons. It's unlikely that most humans have heard of Gnarl Glittergold unless they happen to live near a large group of gnomes. Many humans may not even know who Corellon is unless they are familiar with Elves. If Elves are rare in your neck of the woods, then it's unlikely you've heard of any elf deities.
Now, we face a problem. Many non-human races (halflings, gnomes, and elves in particular) are actively intermingling with humans. This means that their deities and the human deities are going to begin intermixing. What happens, for example, when the followers of Sune and Hanali Celanil come together? It's likely that there will be some overlap, and Sune isn't going to like it if the humans think Hanali is more awesome than she is - and the reverse is true with the Elves as well.
The more multicultural a place becomes the more the deities intermix, and the more difficult it is to avoid conflict due to the rules placed down by Ao. We saw evidence of this happening with the Mulhorandi Pantheon prior to 4th Edition.
Ultimately, if we assume that Faerunian's eventually travel the entire world, immigrating to certain places (as they were doing in Maztica), and trading with foreign lands... inevitably we're going to see a single and unified Torillion Pantheon that operates similarly to the Faerunian Pantheon - just on a global scale.
It's important to keep in mind that there was once a time when a Faerunian Pantheon didn't exist, and that all of the human deities were subdivided into ethnic and cultural pantheons (such as the Netherese Pantheon). What ultimately happened is that they all merged together. This pantheon merging is going to continue until there is a unified pantheon for the entire planet, or until Ao changes the rules. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 30 Jun 2013 23:20:02 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2013 : 15:38:59
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Well, its been in the lore almost since the beginning that when one (similar) power challenges another (usually after entering a new region), one of two things happen - one power gets absorbed (willingly or unwillingly upon defeat), or one power 'steps down' to demi-power status, making it much like a Saint in modern religions (or simply 'Exarch' in 4e terminology).
This is sort of how it happened in the RW, if not in the mythos, then in the actual spread of human cultures over time. Nearly every RW (mythic) god had earlier incarnations, and many of the later ones are actually amalgams of several more primitive deities from other cultures.
The only problem is, that in D&D these 'gods' are very real, and can cause untold destruction to the world itself when they fight. This is why Ao (and I am sure other Overgods) set certain artificial limitations on deific interactions. Some of these rules are probably temporary (although 'temporary' is relative to an immortal being), when there are major cultural clashes going on. During the long course of a world's history, most of these pantheonic changes are gradual, and as one culture subsumes another, so to do the pantheons. So during much of history, Ao need not intervene, because these things work themselves out without a whole lot of (RSE) conflict. By the time most gods realize they are losing massive amounts of power (through worship), its too late for them to stop the process. They either have to agree to serve, be absorbed, or be destroyed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Jul 2013 15:39:16 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2013 : 05:12:51
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| I don't see the gods being real as a "problem" (though many on this site would disagree with me). It adds richness to the Realms. That's what's great about fantasy! Things that may or may not be real in the RW are real in the fantastical setting. I actually think having the pantheons allows for that cultural enrichment. Yeah, there is conflict, and gods are changed, absorbed, destroyed, etc. Even I get annoyed with all the upheavals that goes on between the deities sometimes, but I don't see the pantheons as an issue. They probably create order as much as they create chaos, in other words, a balance. Does that balance get lopsided? Of course. I'm not saying the pantheon concept is perfect, but neither, I think, is having one deity that stands for everyone. I know that argument is null when applied to the RW, but because the Realms is the Realms, I feel that pantheons are a better concept. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2013 : 19:36:27
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| I think what Ayrik's said, that it's about their origin, but also that each pantheon started in one crystal sphere, e.g. the Aesir, Olympians and others had their own Space without any other creation myth contradicting it. FR's pantheon would be the Watching gods, who are hidden under masks and aliases, and play some kind of game with interloping powers. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2013 : 23:50:24
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Some pantheons seem to have, as far as we can tell, particular extraplanar origins - they apparently came to occupy crystal spheres in the Prime from other planes. Most notable of these are the Norse Aesir (and Vanir) and Yggdrasil, the Greek Olympians (and Titans) with Mount Olympus, Tarterus, Hades, and several plane-crossing rivers. We might also include various archfiend Powers along with their associated transplanar bridges and artifacts.
Planescape lore presents some uncertainty about whether things like Yggdrasil and Olympus (and Sigil?) always existed on the Outer Planes, or were formed as pantheon consensus Realms in the Outer Planes, or in fact originated elsewhere (such as crystal spheres from various Primes?) and were somehow permanently relocated onto the Outer Planes. Some pantheons, such as the Celts and their Cosmic/World Tree, incorporate transplanar elements which may have been constructed within the faith, seized (or modified) from older pantheons, or brought onto their Outer Planes from whichever Prime/Sphere they originated.
I'm personally of the opinion that almost everything found on the Outer Planes somehow originated on the Primes, that the Great Wheel is sort of a cosmic machine which continuously filters and rattles energy, matter, and belief-concepts (along with aligned Powers, pantheons, and their quirky peculiars) into whatever places they best fit. The better the fit, the more enduring the pantheon and the Realm they occupy, along with the more connections (or time to make connections) they enjoy with numerous Primes. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2013 : 15:20:21
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| Yeah, I also believe that most stuff related to gods on the Outer Planes has Prime origins. Everything's supposed to begin in the Ethereal, where demiplanes are born and evolve into planes, over a long time. First Greek powers like the Protogenoi probably appeared when Limbo and the Ethereal were the same place, when the differences between the Inner and Outer planes were not yet determined, and spirit/thought/soul was still forming (then just another element, the 5th). Eventually these powers shaped their own cosmos, no longer with elemental traits, but of the Prime. And after religion appeared they moved on from the Prime, to join the outer planes, into the afterlife machine. Olympus, Tarterus, Hades, Elysium. Nirvana etc. are the most known human names for such huge places, but I don't think their divine realms consist a major part, there's probably an infinity of things beyond them, undiscovered. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2013 : 17:28:21
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Its my feeling that the first pantheons weren't even that - just a rather lose assortment of uber-beings (Primordials, Overgods, etc - maybe even some archangel types) who 'got along' in only the broadest of terms (they more likely just all stayed out of each other's way).
Then the primordials (lowest of the order of Ordials {Overgods}) created mortals. I believe this was mandated from 'on high', for whatever reason, and the major racial groups created (who became the Creator Races) were made by the Elemental Lords. Others - like the insectoid races - were created by other primordials. As these races built civilizations and rose in power, certain unique (and very powerful) individuals achieved a hero-worship status, and upon their deaths, became the first 'deities'. This had the unfortunate side-effect of of disturbing the status-quo, which sparked the first Godwar. Up until that time, all planer beings were of specific 'level', and accepted their place. The mortals showed them that they could attain more then that which they were created with... and this lead to jealousy and greed.
Which, of course, lead to Selune's fight with Shar, and the shattering of the First (True) world. We call that 'The Sundering' (but that has much deeper meaning, on so many levels).
Getting back to these first races and their first deities: I assume that they would have worshiped the other planer beings before having 'gods of their own'. Some of these would have risen to prominent (High God) status within their newly-forming racial pantheons. For instance, I think Danu was a nature primordial, who was linked closely with flora. Since I think the Fey were actually a race created from the 'spirits' of plant-life, this made her a natural choice as their High God. Below her, as individual fey achieved their own power, other deities were added to the fey Pantheon. That pantheon was probably the first to achieve some sort of cohesion (and be appropriately called an actual pantheon). The Sauroid, Trachi, and Aerial pantheons soon followed, and lastly, the human one.
I say the human pantheon(s) came last because they borrowed from the others. One of the earliest was the Celtic pantheon, which uses many fey powers. So does the Norse (the Vanir), and even the Vedic pantheon has Danu in it. The Fey had a very large influence on early human development. As the first truly human civilization arose (which I believe were the Blackmoorians), they slowly added their own deities into the mix. After the first world was sundered, humanity was dispersed onto thousands of worlds, and the pantheons fractured and grew into their own unique, world-specific models. For the most part, the other races kept fairly true to their racial pantheons. Perhaps it is because they embraced magic over technology (as the Backmoorians did). But whatever the reason, the racial pantheons tend to stay fairly static from world to world, unlike the human ones.
So I think of the pantheons grew out of that original mix of primordials (also called planer Titans and/or Jotuns), and then the first ones used deities from the others (the Creator races), and then as these races spread throughout the mutiverse, more diversification was added, until now we have the unholy mess that is 'the gods' of D&D. So to my way of thinking, there is really only one pantheon (Planescape?), and everything was an outgrowth of that, with local 'clubs' of gods forming on a 'as needed' basis from setting to setting. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jul 2013 17:31:54 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2013 : 10:06:39
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Are we talking non-canon now? The shattering of the First (True) World, is that from Spelljammer? Then my alternate theory for the D&D multiverse would be that humans weren't the last, but the first. That explains why humans are everywhere, or there are so many creatures with humanoid forms. It's not really Blackmoor, Blackmoor is also a shadow of the first world. The first world was actually our Earth, it had no magic or gods, just technology. It's a few hundred thousand years in the future, when technology becomes so advanced nearly anything is possible. Post-humans play games that make ancient creation myths real, eventually they manage to shatter the universe, most scientific knowledge is lost, what's left is a magical multiverse.
Personally I like to keep the origins of mortals/humans mysterious, I think the Athar are right, gods are just overpowered magic-users, they can shape life, but can't create ex nihilo. The Norse powers also have Danu Idunn, without her apples they would die of old age.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2013 : 21:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Are we talking non-canon now?
YES...
Which is why I began that whole thing with, "Its my feeling that..." 
I believe there was but one 'plane' - one place that was the whole of the universe, and over time we got something akin to the Norse model (separate 'worlds' - really just levels within a plane). So there was one world, and then as mortals came into existence, the 'heavens' (places 'on high' from the rest) became separate, and the 'underealms' (hells) also became separate. So the True world was but one plane, which eventually got separated into layers, and then finally got shattered into the multiverse it is today. Each prime World is a copy of the original, just as each cell in a human body caries our entire DNA. However, over the course of tens of thousands of years, each world has evolved into its own, separate entity, with its own history, geography, and people.
In that first, true world everything in D&D, mythology, folklore & legend, etc existed. What we have today - the myths from those early religions - are just the greatly-changed stories of what happened in the first world, and that is why the myths are just a bit different from setting to setting (and yet, also true for the people of that world, because belief is all-powerful in the universe). In the first world, everything was created by the thoughts of the planer beings, and so the minds of primes still affect their reality, whether they are aware of it or not.
I don't think Mankind was the last to evolve, but rather, the last to achieve great heights of civilization. I think all the first (Creator) races were made right around the same time. Humans behaved more like a virus - they spread and adapted, and did not stay in any one spot for long enough to become very civilized; at least, not at first. By the time the other races even realized that the 'hairless apes' even posed a threat, they were already completely surrounded by billions of them. I like to think humans were like the vermin of the first world, and we all know about vermin's amazing survival abilities. Thats why humans managed to make out the best after the Sundering of the first world - adaption (and relocation) was their primary ability.
I also think humans may have been an offshoot of the first giants - a mutant genetic strain that ran amok. Another theory I have is that they picked-up abilities (and appearances) from all the other creator races - that they, themselves, are an amalgam of the others. They learn and adapt - its what they are good at. Thus, the human genome would have traces of all the others, and have the strongest possibility for mutations (because of the enormous number of abilities that have been 'shelved' within their DNA).
In a heroic world, this could manifest as super-powers. In a fantasy world, fantastical abilities, and in FR, something like Spellfire, or so many other 'wild talents'. For all we know, the Malaugrym may have been on the right track, but used 'dark' methods to achieve their goals (and have thus stagnated). That humans may be 'the race of destiny' because they can instantly adapt themselves to any circumstance and overcome any obstacle. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Jul 2013 21:06:24 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 08:57:56
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| What were the traits of your 'one plane', like the Prime, or Paizo's First World? I agree that it was a single plane, but it had traits that are something between the Ethereal, Limbo, or Elemental Chaos. My feeling is that humans and giants follow the same archetype/form, except giants have primordial traits, humans mortal/prime material. Not that direct relationship between them, only half-giants and nephilim. |
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Pantheons
