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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 22:44:30
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I've been reading the Prince of Thorns series, the Jerry Cornelius Quartet, and the most recent Elric trilogy (Dreamthief's Daughter, Skrayling Tree, White Wolf's Son). These novels have me wondering: What are your limits for a hero's behavior?
If a hero engages in psychological abuse of the villain, slow mutiliation of the villain, or demasculination of the villain...would you still consider the hero to be a hero? If the hero is a hedonist who takes action against the villain out of a desire to preserve his or her favorite snuff club, rather than a strong sense of morals...is that hero still a hero?
To throw out a most vivid example from The Dreamthief's Daughter, Elric captures a Nazi in the Mittelmarches. After a round of interrogation, Elric cuts bits from the Nazi with his sword and feeds them to his demon patron Arioch. Throughout the feeding, the Nazi is alive and in possession of all his faculties. Ultimately, Elric is trying to stop a nihilist from destroying the fabric of Existence. However, someone might look at Elric's brand of justice and think of him as more villain than hero.
So, I ask again, what are the limits of acceptable behavior for a hero?
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"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 23:17:30
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In my games, heroics are strictly what the NPCs are aware of the PCs actions. If they knew what what their 'heroes' did while they were actually adventuring, they'd probably be forced out of civilised areas.
The party psion makes puppets of villains and anyone in her way, then modifies the memories of anyone she might need to call upon again in the future. The fighter is only interested in violence and trophies and the rogue is actually a spy for the Zulkirs of Thay.
However, they enjoy a reputation akin to the Company of Crazed Venturers. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2013 : 23:54:08
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I agree... the 'hero' status is acquired by popular acclaim. Well, as long as we ignore the people who walk around shouting "I'm a hero!"
What the public doesn't know won't hurt you.
That shouldn't be interpreted by players as a total lack of potential consequences, but it's not the DM's job to project real-world morals onto characters in an imaginary world. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 02:10:30
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*Blink* A hero feeding his pet demon?
As the others say, the title of hero is based on results.
The title "hero" is mostly based on who writes the history. In an Elf versus human battle a hero clearly can be proclaimed by both sides based of the battle/conflict. The Elves will proclaim the Elf as a hero for how many humans defeated. The humans will proclaim a Human as a hero for as many Elves defeated.
At best the history writers will same the other side had a Champion of honor, more likely the writers of history will claim the losing side used a vile creature that had no honor or code of conduct. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 04:39:40
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I dislike the term hero for a main character. I prefer the term protagonist. Hero is a title granted by others, and it is quite possible that the protagonist of the story could be a hero to no one... in fact everyone in the story (and reading the story!) could consider the protagonist a villain.
In the setting that the story takes place, it's almost certain people are going to have diverse points of view. The protagonist is going to be a hero to some and a villain to others.
It's also possible for the reader to consider the protagonist a hero, even if no one else in the setting sees it that way. However, like 'good' and 'evil' the notion of 'hero' is subjective.
For me, personally, I have a very high bar for someone to be considered a hero, both in stories and in the real world. A hero is someone who acts against their own self-interest for the benefit of others, and as a result pays a heavy price known as the heroic sacrifice. Someone who is a hero must also do all this while maintaining an inner benevolence toward others.
The benevolent aspect of the hero is not an outward act, and a hero doesn't do good to be validated by others. It is part of their character. This doesn't mean a hero doesn't make mistakes, or even that a hero can't do bad things. However, the hero (due to his inner benevolence) must recognize what he has done wrong and make amends. He must also pay a suitable price for these actions, and this price should not be the same as the heroic sacrifice - it's the price he pays for making the mistake and thus allowing him to earn his redemption.
When it comes to the heroic sacrifice, it must be done in such a way as to grant the hero no direct benefit. Ideally, the hero enters into the situation knowing or at least suspecting what he'll lose.
The hero MUST sacrifice something in order to be considered a hero. It is easy to "do good" if doing good has no cost associated with it. The sacrifice is what separates the hero from other people who perform benevolent acts.
Some examples...
A hero is someone who stands against a tyrant to spark a revolution, knowing that in doing so they are sacrificing their own life. A hero is someone who stands for those who are disenfranchised by others, even though it results in them becoming social outcasts by mainstream society. A hero is someone who runs into a burning building - knowing that they will not be able to escape - to save someone they don't know, only to live in the end with over 70% of their body burned.
Some sacrifices are paid at the beginning of the story, and the story is about how the hero copes with the sacrifice - such as the hero running into a burning building example. Other sacrifices are made at the end of the story - such as the revolutionary being executed for standing against a tyrant. Other sacrifices are made in the middle of the story - such as the hero who stands for someone who is disenfranchised by society.
In my mind, a heroic character is written to inspire people. That is the purpose of heroes - to inspire ordinary people to greater acts of benevolence. I think a good hero makes us sit back and reflect, and wonder if we found ourselves in the same or similar situation, would we have the courage to act as the hero did?
I know my bar for a hero is rather high, but to me - any character who doesn't meet this threshold isn't a hero. They're just a protagonist. A protagonist can still be a "good guy", but a "good guy" can't be a hero without the sacrifice. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11716 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 05:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
I've been reading the Prince of Thorns series, the Jerry Cornelius Quartet, and the most recent Elric trilogy (Dreamthief's Daughter, Skrayling Tree, White Wolf's Son). These novels have me wondering: What are your limits for a hero's behavior?
If a hero engages in psychological abuse of the villain, slow mutiliation of the villain, or demasculination of the villain...would you still consider the hero to be a hero? If the hero is a hedonist who takes action against the villain out of a desire to preserve his or her favorite snuff club, rather than a strong sense of morals...is that hero still a hero?
To throw out a most vivid example from The Dreamthief's Daughter, Elric captures a Nazi in the Mittelmarches. After a round of interrogation, Elric cuts bits from the Nazi with his sword and feeds them to his demon patron Arioch. Throughout the feeding, the Nazi is alive and in possession of all his faculties. Ultimately, Elric is trying to stop a nihilist from destroying the fabric of Existence. However, someone might look at Elric's brand of justice and think of him as more villain than hero.
So, I ask again, what are the limits of acceptable behavior for a hero?
Kind of an aside, I never really read the Elric stuff when I was younger, so I bought some collections from Amazon. So, I started reading the stuff and it starts with his original releases. OMG, they were probably great 50 years ago, but nowadays they make me want to shoot myself to try to finish it. I expect that with time the writing got a lot better. Since I've got the core basis of what kicked off Elric, is there some point that you'd recommend "skip ahead to here"? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2013 : 05:33:31
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Eh, I think they're head and shoulders above most of the current crop of fantasists (not named Martin or Erikson, whome I believe they're on equal ground with). Strong example of quality over quantity, which is a lost art these days. Anywho, since you mention the originals, I assume you're talking about The Stealer of Souls and Stormbringer? Try The Fortress of the Pearl, The Revenge of the Rose, and the trilogy I just mentioned: The Dreamthief's Daughter, The Skrayling Tree, and The White Wolf's Son. This trilogy works as a conclusion to both Elric's saga and the whole of the Eternal Champion. However, you need not have read the entirety of Moorcock's EC stuff to enjoy the trilogy. If you're into the history of the fantasy genre, I would recommend getting the Eternal Champion material. I've noticed a few cliches of the genre had their inception in those stories (in addition to Mr. Howard's work, of course).
Back to the topic at hand. I would look at Ser Jaime Lannister and Sandor "The Hound" Clegane as heroes. One put an end to a mad king, while the other saved an innocent from a rape and likely slow death. Also seems to be playing a sort of mentorly role to Arya and kept her from walking into the butcher's house. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
Edited by - Entromancer on 23 Jun 2013 05:34:17 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2013 : 11:53:10
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As people said, it depends on your definition of "hero".
I've found those in Dictionary.com:
1. a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities.
2. a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal: He was a local hero when he saved the drowning child.
3. the principal male character in a story, play, film, etc.
4. Classical Mythology .
a. a being of godlike prowess and beneficence who often came to be honored as a divinity.
b. (in the Homeric period) a warrior-chieftain of special strength, courage, or ability.
c. (in later antiquity) an immortal being; demigod.
And those at the Free Online Dictionary:
1. In mythology and legend, a man, often of divine ancestry, who is endowed with great courage and strength, celebrated for his bold exploits, and favored by the gods.
2. A person noted for feats of courage or nobility of purpose, especially one who has risked or sacrificed his or her life: soldiers and nurses who were heroes in an unpopular war.
3. A person noted for special achievement in a particular field: the heroes of medicine. See Synonyms at celebrity.
4. The principal male character in a novel, poem, or dramatic presentation.
Of course, in different literary works you will find heroes that stick better to this or to that definition, and it is also true to fantasy novels. So, we have different heroes in the DragonLance, Dark Sun, Ravenloft or Forgotten Realms settings, and even within a seeting - compare Tanis, Sturm Brightblade and Vanderjack, in DragonLance, or Florin Falconhand, Drizzt Do'Urden, Danilo Thann and Galaeron Nihmedu in the Forgoten Realms. The heroes themselves have their personalities, but the style of the writer too. Find the one that suits best your style, respecting of course alignment (Elric, in D&D, was not good) and class (paladins, for example, I portray more like the moral, romantic era heroes).
EDIT: @ Aldrick, I haven't read your post before, but for me, I stick more with your definition of "hero", and try to bring them to my games. But my campaigns are usually more in a tone of "normal people possibly turning into heroes, by need and circumstances", actually, just like Tanis in DL or Aragorn in LOTR. But I really like Drizzt Do'Urden's letters discussing behavior and morality, among other issues, even more than the action part of his novels.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 25 Jun 2013 13:19:22 |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 16:23:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Some examples...
A hero is someone who stands against a tyrant to spark a revolution, knowing that in doing so they are sacrificing their own life. A hero is someone who stands for those who are disenfranchised by others, even though it results in them becoming social outcasts by mainstream society. A hero is someone who runs into a burning building - knowing that they will not be able to escape - to save someone they don't know, only to live in the end with over 70% of their body burned.
Some sacrifices are paid at the beginning of the story, and the story is about how the hero copes with the sacrifice - such as the hero running into a burning building example. Other sacrifices are made at the end of the story - such as the revolutionary being executed for standing against a tyrant. Other sacrifices are made in the middle of the story - such as the hero who stands for someone who is disenfranchised by society.
In my mind, a heroic character is written to inspire people. That is the purpose of heroes - to inspire ordinary people to greater acts of benevolence. I think a good hero makes us sit back and reflect, and wonder if we found ourselves in the same or similar situation, would we have the courage to act as the hero did?
I know my bar for a hero is rather high, but to me - any character who doesn't meet this threshold isn't a hero. They're just a protagonist. A protagonist can still be a "good guy", but a "good guy" can't be a hero without the sacrifice.
I'm on board with you until you get to your examples.
It seems like you think that a hero must also be a martyr. I think that heroic sacrifices are important as well, but they don't have to be so severe as death or disfigurement (though that can happen).
Heroic sacrifices can also be the relinquishment of wealth, the moral road that results in less prestige and coin and more danger than the less heroic path. There is sacrifice in rejecting convenience and profit for conviction and principle and investing the time, energy, and resources to see it through. In fact, I'd say that it is more heroic to see the revolution through day-by-day, inch-by-inch and help your people on to better lives than to die a martyr's death in the beginning.
It's "easy" to be a hero and throw your life away in the beginning when you're all piss and vinegar, full to the brim with passion and oh so sure that yours is the right and true way. It's much harder when one sees spread before him the ways without sacrifice, without suffering. To stand in the face of pragmatism and practicality and continue to choose the way that is fraught with perils, hard work, and, often, no small amount of criticism and rancor. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 25 Jun 2013 16:24:34 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2013 : 18:09:27
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True enough, Emma. On the other hand, some posts in this thread were considering the term "hero" as a synonym of "celebrity", and the recognition of acts of bravery or self-sacrifice as determinant to this heroic status.
In my game, the PCs were heroes - by the moral definition - long before being recognized as such, after defeating big threats to the region they live in, or saving someone's loved one. But they also make mistakes, of course, and sometimes are tempted to take the easier way out of situation. Oh, and the moral hero must also decide how to best deal with his opponents, I think this is one of the original questions of the thread.
In this, my PCs vary: the bladesinger girl, being CG in faerie terms, acts one way. The chaotic priestess of Tempus, coming from a barbaric society but with a strong sense of combat honor, is different. The NG cavalier from Silverymoon, as a former knight in silver, of course, in a third way. And the gnomish priest of Garl Glittergold in yet another way. All reflected their racial and cultural stereotypes very well, while adding depth and individuality to their characters, thus creating a diverse and interesting group of heroes.
EDIT: Even so, sometimes we must remember about the consequences of their acts or, as gamers, of the true meaning of their actions. I sometimes try to bring them to reason about things like drawing weapons (and the place they are when they do that), and about how is to kill someone else, depending on the circumstances. And it is very important to describe the scene carefully, so they can think about it.
For example, once the elf said she would kill a lot of goblins stuck to a modified web spell that left them totally immobilized. She was thinking of removing a threat, but when I described the look of terror in the goblin's faces, and asked her if she would be cold-blooded just enough to trespass the creatures with her blade while they defenselessly debated themselves and tried to scream, she decided otherwise. Of course, a fantasy setting background is different, and circumstances can force a PC into action, but whenever the PCs can choose, options must be presented to them. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 25 Jun 2013 18:18:36 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 02:03:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
It seems like you think that a hero must also be a martyr.
I suppose it depends on how you define martyr. In my mind to be a martyr you have to die for something bigger than yourself such as a belief, a cause, or a principle.
It's true that the heroic sacrifice could be martyrdom - as in the example I gave of the rebel who stood against the tyrant. However, I wouldn't consider someone who became a social outcast or simply suffered burns across 70% of their body a martyr.
In the case of someone suffering a badly burned body, even though in my example they were willing to die, they weren't dying for a cause greater than themselves.
The example of the heroic sacrifice doesn't have to be as extreme as those I listed, of course. It just has to be significant and meaningful to the character (for the right emotional punch to the readers). A good example of a more personal heroic sacrifice: the hero gives up his chance at true love in order to do the right thing, and has to watch the love of his life marry another man as a result.
I think that falls well beyond the scope of martyrdom, even though the cost was great to the character.
It's also important to remember that you don't have to be heroic to be a martyr. You only need to die for something bigger than yourself such as a belief, a cause, or a principle. It's perfectly possible that someone who is seen as the "villain" of the story could be a martyr for his cause.
Of course, the heroic sacrifice wasn't the only thing that I believe you need to be a hero. My heroic creteria:
1. Someone who acts against their self-interest for the benefit of others.
2. Someone who maintains an inner benevolence toward others.
3. Someone who pays the heroic sacrifice.
In my mind, a heroic character must meet those three criteria. The reason I focused so much on the heroic sacrifice is because it's possible to find a lot of characters with the first two qualities. They could be seen as the standard "good guys", however what separates the "good guys" from the "heroes" is what they're willing to sacrifice. If they're not willing to place all their chips on the table, then it's hard for me to see them as "the hero".
In a really messed up way, it's the suffering of the hero that makes him or her heroic to me. It's what I find inspiring and enjoyable about such a character. I think it's possible to tell a story without a hero (and in fact I'd argue that a lot of stories lack heroes based on my criteria).
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
In fact, I'd say that it is more heroic to see the revolution through day-by-day, inch-by-inch and help your people on to better lives than to die a martyr's death in the beginning.
It's "easy" to be a hero and throw your life away in the beginning when you're all piss and vinegar, full to the brim with passion and oh so sure that yours is the right and true way. It's much harder when one sees spread before him the ways without sacrifice, without suffering. To stand in the face of pragmatism and practicality and continue to choose the way that is fraught with perils, hard work, and, often, no small amount of criticism and rancor.
I agree with all of that. 
When I wrote about the rebel being executed by a tyrant, I was talking about toward the end of the story. Not at the beginning. ("Other sacrifices are made at the end of the story - such as the revolutionary being executed for standing against a tyrant.") I was thinking about a Braveheart situation.
What I envisioned in my head - though I obviously didn't articulate it well - was the sacrifice was NOT the death in and of itself, but the fact that he wouldn't get to see the freedom he was fighting for and actually died at the hands of his enemy. It's sort of a situation at the end of the book, during the final battle against the tyrant, everyone is dramatically shouting the heroes name as they win the war - his heroic sacrifice inspiring them to fight on toward victory.
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
Heroic sacrifices can also be the relinquishment of wealth, the moral road that results in less prestige and coin and more danger than the less heroic path. There is sacrifice in rejecting convenience and profit for conviction and principle and investing the time, energy, and resources to see it through.
To me a heroic sacrifice means a heavy price. It has to hurt. It's easy to pay a small price, but when it hurts like hell - that's how we're able to separate the "hero" from just the "good guys". As a reader, I want to feel an emotional connection to the character as a result of that sacrifice - I want to feel his pain. Often there would have to be some build up to it.
In the examples I've given...
For the character who sacrificed his true love, only to watch her marry another man... for it to have the proper impact, we'd need to see them together some time before he had to make that choice. It's better if as readers we believe that they're in love and WANT them to be happy together, or at least believe that she's the light of his world. This way when the character makes the sacrifice we feel it too.
For the character who sacrificed his life against a tyrant... for it to have the proper impact, we have to see just how much the tyrant has hurt him personally. We have to see his struggle to unite the rebels, to build a ragtag army, and all of the dredge work involved along the way. Then disaster strikes, the hero gets captured by the tyrant, but refuses to break and is executed in such a way that makes it clear that he'll never get to see all that he struggled for come to pass. This way we feel the loss of a character that we've grown to love - we know how much the cause meant to him. A reader should feel inspired and cheering on the rebels as they turn toward their final confrontation to achieve victory in the end.
For the character who is burned across 70% of his body because he ran into a burning building to save someones life... for it to have the proper impact, it needs to happen at the beginning of the story. The story wouldn't be about saving the persons life, it would be about the hero recovering from the sacrifice he made in order to save someones life. We connect to his suffering through his recovery. Whereas the other examples are more sad, this one is meant to be more inspirational and happy. It's about overcoming adversity, finding meaning, purpose, perhaps even love.
Hopefully this explains my point of view better. |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 02:27:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Hopefully this explains my point of view better.
Indeed it does. You cleave to a more "tragic" interpretation of hero than I do, and that's certainly valid. The ingredients for a hero that you outline are a heady mix that has had me crying at the end of a tale more than a time or two!
To use your Braveheart reference, what makes William Wallace a hero (in your eyes) is his death at the end (after toiling for a cause), while for me it's the strength in the face of adversity, conviction, and hard work that got him into that position in the end that make him a hero. If he had lived out the rest of his days in relative peace and quiet, I'd still call him as such. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 03:48:32
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Okay, let's say we've got a hedonistic protagonist. He enjoys rich food, loose women, a occasional spot of torture and bloodletting in his sorcerous experiments. A lawful entity enacts a decree or rule that would make the hedonistric protagonist subservient to a lofty notion of greater good. Within the lawful entity's bureaucracy, there's lawful enforcers engaging in human trafficking and extortion. The hedonistic protagonist sees a simmering resentment toward the lawful entity within the Undercity. Now, the hedonistic protagonist is disgusted by some of the residents of the Undercity. Chiefly those who take men, women, and children from the Undercity into snuffhouse clubs (against their will) for a night of gore-soaked pleasure revelry.
The hedonistic protagonist goes about sowing the seeds of revolution throughout the Undercity. In the midst of the revolution, he plans to abduct certain people from the Undercity who engage in those activities that he finds morally reprehensible. These Undercity folk, along with the Lawful Entity's enforcers, will serve as test subjects for the hedonistic protagonist's sorcerous experiments. These experiments involve warlock's magic and conjuration of minor devils, vampires, ogres, and elementals. The hedonistic protagonist intends to use his augmented warlock's magic/conjuration against the Lawful Entity and certain power players in the Undercity. If all goes well, the revolution should end with the execution of the Lawful Entity and the hedonistic protagonist gaining a place of power within the Undercity. More rich food, loose women, and torture/bloodletting in the name of magical science!
The revolution has deposed the Lawful Entity and ended in the execution of his/her enforcers that were engaging in extortion and human trafficking. The people of the Uppercity and Undercity are free to make their way as they chose. They'll decide the course of their city's future. Is the hedonistic protagonist a hero? |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 04:07:44
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All of this reminds me of "The Neverwinter Saga", in which the Shadovar tiefling warlord Herzgo Alegni orchestrates a situation in which Thayan Ashmadai zealots attack the fledgling town of New Neverwinter, just so he can swoop in and defend the townsfolk and pronounce them as beholden to him. He declares himself their hero, and challenges them to say differently.
Never mind a hero and his pet demon. This one is part-demon.
In this case, it's more like a "hero" part-demon and his pet human . . .  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 05:21:25
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| Well a hero is made due to others making the person out to be a hero... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 10:36:08
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| Gonna chime in on a different angle to what can make a character a hero...overcoming his/her past or their own lack of strength of character. As an example, Tom Cruise's part in The Last Samurai. Here you have a character who has committed atrocities in the past and, in his weakness and shame, has become a severe alcoholic. As the story progresses, he overcomes his shame and his alcoholism and regains his honor (and sense of self-worth) with the help of a woman he comes to love, and a samurai he comes to admire. In the end, he's WILLING to die for the cause and yet survives. In a sense, his survival makes his heroism more poignant because, IMO, he must continue to stay the course throughout the rest of his life and avoid slipping over the edge again. Just my two cents, cheers! |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 10:44:59
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| @Entromancer: I wouldn't characterize that example as 'heroic' as your protagonist seems to be acting more out of a sense of personal gain than for a 'higher cause' (let alone selflessness). He may come to be regarded as a hero by the locals, but your example doesn't seem to be willing to die for the cause...he seems more likely to cut and run if the odds stack well against him (and thus abandoning those he would otherwise set free). Still, it would depend on whether or not he undergoes any significant change of heart. Does he come to see torture/bloodletting as evil and thus his own desire to partake in such as evil? Does he then cast off such desires and then set forth freeing others from such evil? Is he willing to suffer for his new found convictions? Does he suffer for them and yet continue to fight on knowing he may well suffer more pain and possibly death? I would say he has an opportunity to become heroic, but his 'heart' and his actions are what would define him as such. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 11:52:29
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I've tried to track down the RW etymology of the word "hero" before, and it got complicated, real fast.
One version says that there was a myth of a young Greek girl named Hero, who was banned from seeing her boyfriend. He would row or sail a small boat across a bay to meet up with her in her tower at night, and sneak away before dawn. One night, he was lost at sea, and when she found out, Hero jumped from the tower to her death.
Now, that's a tale of romantic tragedy--not a noble or honorable conflict or adventure. If anything, the boyfriend sounds more typically "heroic" than the actual namesake character!
But that boy died by accident, getting caught in a storm, in an attempt to carry out a Hellenic maritime booty call. Is that really all that "heroic"?
And for some reason, the girl in the story was given the name, even though she didn't sacrifice herself in order to help anyone else. She just committed suicide in anguish. Is that even "heroic", either?
Going off of that story, to be "heroic", one must be female, be secretly romantically involved, live in a tower overlooking the sea, lose one's male lover, and off oneself in grief.
So how in the world did we ever get the much more familiar understanding of the terms "hero" and "heroic"?! Does anyone know of and can anyone point to a male origin to the name "Hero"/word "hero"? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1150 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 12:20:55
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It's already mentioned that the original recorded heroes were the greek demigods. Mortal heroes then arose but they were all great warriors. It was only later that heroes were lauded for their moral actions rather than for killing people and there we come to the first female mortal heroes.
The WORD hero is a 14th century english word derived from the greek meaning defender or warrior. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
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Edited by - hashimashadoo on 26 Jun 2013 12:22:36 |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 13:45:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
@Entromancer: I wouldn't characterize that example as 'heroic' as your protagonist seems to be acting more out of a sense of personal gain than for a 'higher cause' (let alone selflessness). He may come to be regarded as a hero by the locals, but your example doesn't seem to be willing to die for the cause...he seems more likely to cut and run if the odds stack well against him (and thus abandoning those he would otherwise set free). Still, it would depend on whether or not he undergoes any significant change of heart. Does he come to see torture/bloodletting as evil and thus his own desire to partake in such as evil? Does he then cast off such desires and then set forth freeing others from such evil? Is he willing to suffer for his new found convictions? Does he suffer for them and yet continue to fight on knowing he may well suffer more pain and possibly death? I would say he has an opportunity to become heroic, but his 'heart' and his actions are what would define him as such.
I've been fleshing out the character. Let's call him Sarkun. Sarkun would never interfere with others' desire to partake in the evil that you mention. He very much values others' ability to commit whatever acts they feel motivated to do. However, Sarkun balances that value out by expecting that those who act are prepared for the consequences of their actions. His role in the Undercity will that of a Ringleader. The Ringleaders manage various clubs that would be frowned upon in more civil societies. In Sarkun's case, his club is the Pit Club, and caters to the Uppercity bureaucracy on this principle: when the bureaucrats have indulged in their vices to excess, away from the public eye, they will be able to better fulfill the duties of their offices.
You're right--Sarkun would likely cut and run. There's always the off chance that he'll try to strike a bargain with something more powerful than whoever caused him to abandon the cause. Following this bargain, Sarkun would return with his new ally and turn it loose on that powerful individual. Sarkun seeking the bargain is contingent on how badly the oppressors of the revolution offend his sensibilities. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 15:41:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Well a hero is made due to others making the person out to be a hero...
That's too postmodern for me. I can call a cat a duck, but that doesn't make it a duck.
"Hero" is somewhat subjective because of the moral component, but there are still certain basic criteria that crop up again and again in these responses - belief in a cause, willingness to sacrifice oneself if need be, desire to work for the common good, etc. Where it becomes subjective is... what is the common good? what is sacrifice enough? And so on...
That doesn't mean that someone (we will call him Joe the Blacksmith) might not conceive of a character/person (we will call her Sue the Adventurer) as a hero based on what he knows or has seen of her. (Or tricked into thinking in the case of Beast's example!) If Joe later found out that Sue was torturing and killing babies in her cellar every 8th day, he would no longer consider her a hero. She was killing babies all along, he just didn't know it, and so thought of her as a heroic figure. (He probably doesn't view the baby torture as work for the common good... Pshaw... Rube.) However, when he does find out, he changes his evaluation - thus proving that he based his perception on certain criteria, in his mind, of what a hero is.
So even when people (erroneously or not) call someone else a hero, they still have certain ideas of what that means. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
Edited by - Emma Drake on 26 Jun 2013 16:03:12 |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 15:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
In my game, the PCs were heroes - by the moral definition - long before being recognized as such, after defeating big threats to the region they live in, or saving someone's loved one. But they also make mistakes, of course, and sometimes are tempted to take the easier way out of situation.
Imperfect heroes are my favorite kind. :) |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2013 : 16:00:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Entromancer
The revolution has deposed the Lawful Entity and ended in the execution of his/her enforcers that were engaging in extortion and human trafficking. The people of the Uppercity and Undercity are free to make their way as they chose. They'll decide the course of their city's future. Is the hedonistic protagonist a hero?
No. He is an antihero. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 04:11:54
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| I reject the term "hero". The winner calls himself the "hero". The other guy also called himself the "hero". But in the end there can be only one, nobody remembers the second place loser, and there is no substitute for success. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 04:53:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I reject the term "hero". The winner calls himself the "hero". The other guy also called himself the "hero". But in the end there can be only one, nobody remembers the second place loser, and there is no substitute for success.
I have the power! Aye, the quickening that empowers me! I feel everything! I know... I know everything! I am everything! |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2013 : 17:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
It's already mentioned that the original recorded heroes were the greek demigods.
What I'm looking for is a source that says this. All I can find are weak etymologies of the English word "hero" which make the claim, without citing original sources.
The only specific Greek character named "Hero" that I've come across, thus far, is the one I mentioned.
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"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2013 : 05:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Well a hero is made due to others making the person out to be a hero...
That's too postmodern for me. I can call a cat a duck, but that doesn't make it a duck.
"Hero" is somewhat subjective because of the moral component, but there are still certain basic criteria that crop up again and again in these responses - belief in a cause, willingness to sacrifice oneself if need be, desire to work for the common good, etc. Where it becomes subjective is... what is the common good? what is sacrifice enough? And so on...
That doesn't mean that someone (we will call him Joe the Blacksmith) might not conceive of a character/person (we will call her Sue the Adventurer) as a hero based on what he knows or has seen of her. (Or tricked into thinking in the case of Beast's example!) If Joe later found out that Sue was torturing and killing babies in her cellar every 8th day, he would no longer consider her a hero. She was killing babies all along, he just didn't know it, and so thought of her as a heroic figure. (He probably doesn't view the baby torture as work for the common good... Pshaw... Rube.) However, when he does find out, he changes his evaluation - thus proving that he based his perception on certain criteria, in his mind, of what a hero is.
So even when people (erroneously or not) call someone else a hero, they still have certain ideas of what that means.
That's the way I see it as well. Everyone has a criteria for what they think is heroic, and thus what makes someone a hero. This is true even if they aren't cognisant of that criteria, they are still passing judgement on someone based on their perceptions of their personality and actions.
There are a couple different levels of a potential hero in a story, though. First, there is what the other characters in the story think about the would be hero in question. Second, there is what the readers / viewers of the story think of the would be hero.
It's possible that some characters in the story see a characters actions as heroic, whereas others do not. It's possible for a reader to view a characters actions as heroic, but the other characters in the story to not see it that way themselves. Sometimes an author might intentionally create this type of disconnect. For example, the reader could know all about Sue's baby killing activities, whereas the characters in the story could be oblivious to it.
However, there are also cases where the disconnect isn't intentional. I think this is most common when it comes to stories written during different time periods. To people at the time they might not think twice, and see a character as being the epitome of heroic awesomeness. Of course, we could read the same thing now - with radically different values - and find only a racist and sexist bastard who probably deserves to die along with the villain.
Here are a few sexist examples from comics.
Example One.
Example Two.
Example Three.
Example Four.
...and those are the "good guys". It's so sexist that it's actually funny, because you wonder if it's a parody or not... but it's not. 
It actually makes me wonder how the heroic characters we imagine today will be perceived in the future. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2013 : 16:33:04
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I use hero and protagonist interchangeably. Heroes are not supposed to be perfect, but they have done something that’s worthy of respect and emulation. It doesn’t have to be great and large in scope. It may even just be quite personal. What matters is it’s essentially right, even if it slightly or completely deviates from good.
I can probably tolerate almost any behaviors of the hero, except these two: homophobic bigotry and pedophilia. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Limits of Acceptable Behavior for a Hero
